Origin: Old Dun Cow

Subject: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

Sorry if this has already been asked (had no time to check all the old threads on this song), but can anyone tell me how old "The Old Dun Cow" is? I visited several Web sites, and each of them had a different age for that song. One said "no older than 1800", another one "1893", and so on.

thank you!!!!

Mad Maudlin

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: pavane
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM

This WAS discussed in a very recent thread, in which I seem to remember, the author's name and date of publication were given (1880's ,I think). I don'thave time to search for it though.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: John J at home
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 03:35 AM

I'm fairly sure it's a music hall song, so 1880s sounds about right.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 05:21 AM

The previous thread should give you the details.

As I think I've said in it, the "Old Dun Cow" referred to was the one in the Old Kent Road, near Peckham.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 12:40 AM

Thank you for the information! Dave, isn't "Old Kent Road" a music hall song, too?

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 03:18 AM

I think that's "Knocked 'em in the Old Kent Road".

Last night(?)down our alley came a toff,
Tall (?) old geezer wiv a nasty cough,
See's my missis, take 'is topper off,
In a very gentlemanly way.

Ma'am, says ;e, I ;ave some news to tell,
Your rich uncle Tom of Camberwell,
Died quite recent, which it ain't a sell,
Leaving you 'is donkey and 'is shay.

Wotcher! All the neigbours cried,
'Oo yer gonner meet Bill?
'Ave yer brought the street Bill?
Laugh? I thought I should've died,
Knocked 'em in th Old Kent Road!

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: GUEST,hayley
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 06:38 AM

the old dun cow was from british music hall, it was written in 1893 by harry wincott.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 12:54 PM

The full title of the song by Harry Wincott was "When the 'Old Dun Cow' Caught Fire." 1893 is the correct date.
Ref.: p. 546, Michael Kilgarriff, 1998, "Sing Us One of the Old Songs, A Guide to Popular Song, 1860-1920," Oxford University Press.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 06:34 PM

And the last verse was added (circa 1970 I guess) by Pete Twitchett

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 08:56 PM

What 'may' be the original lyrics are posted in thread 14937: When he Old Dun Cow

I have not found sheet music or a set of lyrics unequivocably of the original Wincott lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 06:49 AM

The original singer was Harry Champion. Google 'Windyridge'to find a CD with many of his songs, including 'Old Dun Cow', all sung in Champion's vocal machuine-gun style.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 06:50 AM

Or machine-gun.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:08 PM

Billy Weeks is probably correct. Champion slightly shortened the title, which led me to wonder if there were original Wincott lyrics that were revised by Champion to fit his style. An academic question, really, since the performer makes the song.

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:26 PM

I had a quick look at the old threads on this song but I didn't see the answer to this question that I've always vaguely wondered about: what is the significance of someone shouting "Macintyre"? Does it mean anything, or was it chosen simply because it rhymes with "fire"? Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: MMario
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:39 PM

well - in the older version we see "Someone said to MacIntyre"

Subject: RE: Help: Age & origin of 'Old Dun Cow'
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:17 AM

There is a "legend" that a Mr MacIntyre was Chief Fire Officer for London at the time the song was written. There may be some truth in it.

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 05:40 AM

Macintyre - cockney rhyming slang for Fire.

---

Please remember to use a consistent name when you post. Messages with the "from" space blank, risk being deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GRex
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:42 AM

I believe that Macintyre was the local police sergeant, feared by all, good and bad alike. Never came across 'Macintyre' as rhyming slang but then I left London's Eastend in 68, enough time for things to have changed.
            
          GRex

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 11:17 PM

MacIntyre! is shouted to complete the annoyance of the f'ing thing
being sung in the wee hours by a teenage wannabe who doesn't actually
know the words.

It roughly translates to 'f--k you, you little s--t, will you get
through the song and bugger off to your bed so that the rest of
us can get on with our inebriate sing-song?'

Usually at the first 'MacIntyre' the offending teen accelerates to
a point where the whole of the song is completed in the time that
said teen would spend in copulation with a debutante and then
it's over and we can all thank the Lord and move on to some
other folk obscurity.

(But I actually rather like the song--- nonetheless it has joined
'Barrett's Privateers' in the anals of 'songs most likely to
be sung badly in the wee hours.)

The good news is that we're usually blue-blind paralytic drunk
by the time the thing comes round.

Now, how does that 'Barley Mow' thing go?

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:35 AM

songs most likely to be sung badly in the wee hours

Sounds like a subject worthy of a new thread!

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GUEST,Pete Gibson
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 09:08 PM

You know there was a pub called the Dun Cow in Camberwell too (from 1881 census) though it's not there now. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 09:44 PM

Pete-

It burned down, of course!

Shouting "Macintyre" made no sense to me for years but I did happily accept the idea that it might have referred to some fire chief or other. I really don't lose much sleep over this question. "Macintyre" does rhyme with "fire" which is an equally fine rationale. At this point, why would we want to shout anything else?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: BretonCap
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Point of Order Mr Chairman.

The Rhyming slang word for "fire" was always Jeremiah when I was a young Londoner.

Yes McIntyre can rhymn if you pronounce fire as fyre but not if you, say nearer to fi-ah ( might New Englanders over the water say it that way?)

Dave

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: allanwill
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:08 PM

Have a live version from an old Richard Digance programme by (if I understand RD correctly) John Foreman? I don't know anything about this person but it seems he is/was one of those singer/guitarist/comedian/raconteur performers that seem to have been prevalent in 1970's England.

Some of the lyrics don't seem to quite make sense compared to how it was originally written, but who cares - I guess you had to be there.

His version, with monologues, goes like this (use your imagination that you are part of the live audience)

Allan


"It's all about a beer festival in Heidelberg, which is where the German unemployed are when they're not working"

When the pub burn't down

CHORUS
there was Brown, upside down,
mopping up the whiskey on the floor.
Booze, booze, the firemen cried
as they came a-knocking at the door.
Don't let 'em in till it's all mopped up,
somebody shouted Mcintyre
McINTYRE!
And we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
when the old Dun Cow caught fire.

"yeah, you can all join in as well, but.... don't spoil it, will ya'"

My mates and me in the public house
was a'playin' dominoes last night.
When all of a sudden, in a (pop?) and rush
with his face all chalky white.
What's up, says Brown,have you seen a ghost
comin' by the old Maria?
Aunt Maria be blowed, says he,
the bleedin' pub's on fire.

repeat CHORUS

"(referring to audience) Feeble...I mean it's...no, honestl, yperhaps it's not feeble, perhaps it's genteel... which is.. almost the same thing"

I was going to read something... there wasn't much happened today - the only thing I noticed in the paper was that the - see - the Manchester Ship Canal,that the Manchester Dry Docks - and in the business page of the Telegraph, it says that the Manchester Dry Dock is going into liquidation... it's true!

Anyway,the pub's on fire - well, it's better than the song, isn't it"

The pub's on fire, on fire, says Brown
what a bit of luck.
ome along and ????? (just can't work it out - when will you Poms learn to speak English!)
Down in the cellar, if the pubs on fire
we'll have a real old spree.
So we all charged down with dear old Brown
and the beer could not be missed.
And we hadn't been ten minutes there
before we was all drunk.

repeat CHORUS

Just then there was a dreadful crash
and half the bloomin' roof fell in.
Well we got wet from the firemens hose
we got soaked to the skin.
But we got some sex......

"Sorry... I'm sorry about that. It all comes over me sometimes - but I don't come from around here at all and sex is different. Where I come from in London, sex is mostly for the working classes, and it's what we get our coal in!

Around here, you get it in bags, I believe.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that"

Well we got some sacks and some old tin tacks
and we bunged ourselves inside,
and we all got drinking good old gin
till we was bleary eyed

"for the last time"

CHORUS
there was Brown, upside down,
mopping up the whiskey on the floor.
Booze, booze, the firemen cried
as they came a-knocking at the door.
Don't let 'em in till it's all mopped up,
somebody shouted Mcintyre
McINTYRE!
And we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
when the old Dun Cow caught fire.

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Beer
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM

I love the song done by Brendan Nolan.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:31 PM

Dearest Maudlin,

WHY???

With half a valid incentive - there are some "lurkers" that might produce three pages of a "Master's Thesis"

Some on the MC are tired, flaggelated, scholars....that drop in occasionaly (Like Mr. Mata - only on the first week of the month)because they cannot separate the "wheat from the chaff."

Sincerely,
GARGOYLE

The winnowing has become a blizzard of straw.

MAX - time for a third level - let ME be the daemon to determine acceptance into the UPPER Kingdom of REAL discussions.....that could last 30 days and never be over 30 threads.

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: BB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

Alinact, John Foreman was acknowledged as an expert on Cockney Music Hall songs when he was particularly popular on the folk scene in the '70s. To give you a bit more detail, I found this on a website about acts who have performed at a venue in Dunfermline - the website was originally set up in 2006, so the information may be fairly up-t-date:

"John Foreman, born near Euston Station, regards himself as a true 'London Cockney'. In spite of the Wartime "Blitz", he says he had a happy childhood in the city streets. Most of John's songs were learned from his parents, but he also acquired others from visiting the old Music Halls, "whenever he had a bob or two". He got more from watching, listening and performing at Unity Theatre, which was established between Camden Town and King's Cross as a working man's theatre. It was there he learned The Four Horse Charabanc from Laurie Davies.

For a time he worked as a doorman at The Metropolitan in the Edgware Road, and, for a time, was a bottler with a Punch-and-Judy man, Professor Alexander. (The bottler collects the money, does front-of-house and bangs the big drum to draw a crowd). Frequently John has operated as a busker and sold song-sheets in "Petticoat Lane". He has taught in many different types of school in London, prints his own song-sheets and broadside collections. He is a founder member of The British Music Hall Society and helped to dismantle Collin's Music Hall when it was burned down.

Being a printer by trade, he is also known as 'The Broadsheet King' and is also a well-known folk entertainer and singer of London Music Hall songs that he still performs at pubs and clubs regularly."

Personally, I haven't seen him for years, but always enjoyed his entertaining performances.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

BB calls it about right! John Foreman is a great London character in the true sense of the word. His patter in between songs is as good as the songs themselves. One I particularly remember is his line about being born... he wanted to be twins and when he counted himself and found there was only one of him, he cried very hard...but he was cross-eyed and the tears ran down his back and gave him a nasty case of bacteria!

No one ever came late when he was on as he had the kindest, funniest way of treating them so they were never, ever late again, ever, for anything!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GUEST,Wendy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

It's good to see Peter's name on this thread. I wonder what he's doing now?

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM

With the kindest respects to Mr. BB

I found this on a website about acts

AIN'T WORTH a Tinker's Damn! without a time/date/URL to the location (think library code - on a worldwide basis)

Without Maudlin checking back in with a motive

WILD MARCH HARE

Pay her no mind - MC is full busking to busting of her kind.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

The way I read the 'McIntyre' line, as opposed to singing it, is:

"Don't let them in til it's all mopped up, somebody." shouted McIntyre.

In other words, he wanted somebody to keep the firemen at bay until all the beer had been consumed by the regulars.

But then again, I've been known to be wrong before.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Origin: Old Dun Cow
From: Graham and Jo
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

Years ago in East London heard McIntyre was the landlord of the pub.