HTML Practice Thread

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 12:58 PM

Nope. Not working now, Dave. We're on a virtual machine just now, and probably won't have all the bells and whistles until Max does the full rebuild.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 12:28 PM

Or maybe Mudcat can now handle cyrillic without conversion to html &-codes?

??, ?? ?? ???? ???????? ???? ??, ?? ?? ???? ???????? ???? - ??, ??? ??[?]

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 12:08 PM

Felipa wrote: I had the strange experience of copying and posting lyrics in html code from the same source, using the same system, and getting a sample that worked and another that didn't.

Hi Felipa. Yes, I saw that. I can't easily explain what happened. Are you using my Browser Tools addon?

It should convert Cyrillic
ОЙ, ЯК ЖЕ БУЛО ІЗПРЕЖДИ ВІКА Ой, як же було ізпрежди віка - Ой, дай Бо[г].

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 11:42 AM

Stanron wrote: This time it worked. Is nbsc stuff the non breakable space?

Yes. If you started in a text editor he spaces will be simple ascii spaces and the Monospace font will replace each one with an html non-breaking space -   - to preserve the layout.

The pre tag, and the white-space:pre style MudGuard suggested will also preserve the layout. Take your pick. But a single button is easiest, I contend.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 10:18 AM

Thanks Dave. I make these displays in a text editor which appears to be named just 'Text Editor'. Linux Mint, Firefox browser. I copy and paste from the text editor into the Mudcat posting box.

The time it didn't work I probably copied it from an earlier mudcat posting. I'll try it again from scratch

/12|------------|
4/4|1  2  3  4  |
6/8|1 + a 2 + a |


This time it worked. Is nbsc stuff the non breakable space?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Felipa
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 10:17 AM

Dave Ro

I don't always trust previews, because I've had some experiences of pasting in lyrics in Cyrilllic and in Hebrew (not typing, not using html) in which the text looked right in the preview but was all question marks ??? in the final post.

Therefore, I recently posted here first, rather than at the intended discussion thread. I had the strange experience of copying and posting lyrics in html code from the same source, using the same system, and getting a sample that worked and another that didn't.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 09:17 AM

I just copied the 3-line block into my post, hightlighted it, and pressed 'Monopspace'. If the bars line up on preview it should line up when posted.

You said it didn't line up on preview before, and it appears to me that line 2 had single spaces. Why that was I can't guess.

Copying and Pasting text doesn't work the same in every operating system and every program that you copy from or to. Sometimes you end up copying formatting as well. In particular there are ordinary (ascii) spaces, and non-breaking (unicode) spaces, as well as html non-breaking spaces:   Only ordinary spaces get changed to html non-breaking spaces by the MBT Monospace button. If you copy and paste from mudcat itself you might get unicode non-breaking spaces.

None of that should matter. If the preview looks right it should post correctly. If necessary add or remove non-breaking spaces.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 08:04 AM

Thanks. I've actually got MBT installed. How do I use it to display the three lines?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Newport Boy
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 07:15 AM

Stanron wrote: I've tried looking up MBT online. No joy. What is it?

That's Dave's Mudcat Browser Tools - well worth having for all sorts of uses.

Phil

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 07:14 AM

Sorry - Mudcat Browser Tools

Mudcat thread about it.

And a plug for my Simple Linkifier - because the Mudcat one is broken:
Simple Linkifier

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 07:05 AM

I've tried looking up MBT online. No joy. What is it?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:44 AM

That looks spot on Dave. If the bar lines line up then it is correct.

Yes the second line has two spaces. The top line has none and the bottom line has single spaces.

In the thread some one posted a track where a jig was played over what sounded like 4/4 accompaniment.

This was part of an explanation of why it worked.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:17 AM

This is formatted using MBT - as was my last post:

  /12 |............|  
  4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
  6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |

Previews OK.

The middle line has 2 spaces between the numerals. Did yours, Stanron?

The button also replaces spaces with non-breaking spaces, as described in the link to MBT.

Let's see what gets posted.

(It uses span and not div for historical reasons - the buttons were originally all inline styling, and the non-breaking spaces were added later. Though in practice a block is more likely - all the examples I've posted are blocks.)

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:52 AM

a monospace font does not change the handling of spaces.

In HTML, usually, multiple spaces are reduced to one space.

The pre element and the text-area element are the only elements which (per default) keep spaces. (unless I forgot elements)

This can be influenced by CSS, here by using a style attribute with "white-space:pre;" in it - as I have demonstrated for the div element.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:23 AM

Thanks Joe Dave and Mudguard.

I've got Dave's browser ,tools. lets try

/12 |............|
4/4 |1 2 3 4 |
6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |

I highlighted the three lines and clicked monospace

It didn't work in the preview. What am I doing wrong?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:14 AM

div is like span, an element with no special meaning - while span is "inline" (like a word), div is block (like a paragraph).

The style="font-family: Courier New, Lucida Console, Monospace; white-space:pre;"> has two CSS declarations.

First, the font family (I gave 2 common windows monospace fonts, plus the "generic" fallback monospace which causes browsers to use their default monospace font).

Second, the white-space:pre; which causes the browser to treat whitespace "as is" - it is the default value of the pre element.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:11 AM

Thanks, Dave and MudGuard. You are way beyond me, and I sure am glad you are here to contribute your expertise. I've learned a lot from the both of you.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:54 AM

With the pre tag:

    /12 |............|  
    4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
    6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |
  

Using the Monospace button on my Mudcat Browser tools addon:

  /12 |............|  
  4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
  6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |

That generates <span style="font-family:monospace"> ... </span>

Both are aligned, but different sizes here on mobile for some reason.

Note the important 'Monospace' fallback in Mudguard's code. This device does not have Courrier or Lucida fonts. So it won't look the same as in Windows. Just 'Monospace' is enough.

tt (teletype) is obsolete. Some mobile browsers don't support it, I've read, but I don't know if that's true.

Stanron: you posted [code] to the hornpipe thread.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:05 AM

MudGuard, I don't understand the <div> tag. Can you explain what I can do with it?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:02 AM

interesting. div allows style attribute, tt not (style="white-space:pre;" would handle the spaces ...)

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:00 AM

  <div style="font-family: Courier New, Lucida Console, Monospace; white-space:pre;">
    /12 |............|  
    4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
    6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |
  </div>
  

will show this:

/12 |............|
4/4 |1 2 3 4 |
6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:59 AM

Hi, Stanron - the <tt>tag works to make monospaced characters</tt> but I'm not sure it works for spaces.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: MudGuard
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:54 AM

Weird Cloud over Munich, Bavaria, Germany, Europe, Earth

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:31 AM

Thanks Joe.

It was in the 6/8 Hornpipe thread. I managed to get those three lines working with the "pre" tag. Is it possible to force regular spacing any other way?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 02:47 AM

Well....I had to fix it here, and didn't see it in the other thread.... ;-)

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 07:17 AM

How come it works here but not in the thread it was aimed at?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 07:12 AM

  
  /12 |............|  
  4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
  6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |
  
  

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:50 AM

Exxx cxxxyyy -tttttt OREH    

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Mar 21 - 03:16 PM

Reinhard wrote: You can also use named entities instead of code numbers

My addon uses those for some cases.
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=159035#4078599

I noticed that Dick M pasted some text into the Monopoly thread which contained 'smart quotes' (as MS calls them) and that those were displayed properly. (Though some instances of the same characters on the page were encoded, which is curious.) I wondered if anything had changed, and whether those east European characters and musical symbols would now display OK in which case my addon's encoding would be unneccesary. Answer: no.

The conversion of those letters into near-homoglyphs is interesting. Where does that occur?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 Mar 21 - 02:13 PM

Ditto &sung; &flat; &natur; &sharp; for ♪ ♭ ♮ ♯

The other notes have no corresponding entity names.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 Mar 21 - 02:11 PM

You can also use named entities instead of code numbers:

&scedil; &gbreve; &inodot; &otilde; &cacute; &nacute; &sacute; &zacute; &lstrok; &zdot; &aogon; &eogon;

for

ş ğ ı õ ć ń ś ź ł ż ą ę

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Mar 21 - 12:06 PM

Those were actually
    ş ğ ı ő ć ń ś ź ł ż ą ę
and
    ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ ♭ ♮ ♯

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Mar 21 - 12:00 PM

From a recent thread:
the game’s 80th “anniversary” celebration

Eastern European characters:
    s g i o c n s z l z a e

Musical symbols:
? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

Latin-1 supplement
u+00A0 to u+00FF

 ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­­ ®¯
°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿
ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ
ÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞß
àáâãäåæçèéêëìíîï
ðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ

(I added a space at AD)

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM

That was censorship; they try to steal the election!

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:00 PM

That was Chinese for "Trump is an idiot".

Didn't work.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 06:56 PM

Means "bird island". I was once on a plane going there that was mostly British oackage tourists going to "Koose-a-DAR-sey". Yuck.

Let's try something more ambitious.

???????

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 03:06 PM

One reason I was testing this is that I'd had to rewrite the encoder in my Browser Tools addon. I wondered it was worth doing, because I thought the problems of a year or two back were over, as I wrote here.

So the site seems to be OK for French, German, and most western European languages. But encoding is still worthwhile for posting lyrics in these part-Roman languages. And obviously for Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, etc - should anybody do that.

The recent earthquake was near Kuşadası in Turkey, a town I know well. It wouldn't sound the same as Kusadasi

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 01:52 PM

And the ß for β is definitely a bad joke. Who wrote the mapping? If someone in charge reads this: at least fix the Preview, please!

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 01:15 PM

The mostly-Roman languages look superficially the same, dropping some diacritics, which will certainly change the pronunciation in Turkish and probably the others too. I expect speakers of Polish etc. are used to it.

The Greek surprised me. I didn't expect it to convert δ to d yet not use A for capital alpha.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 12:43 PM

The "current situation" is worse than before the change made about a year ago. The web site is all in UTF-8, but the database remains in some ancient codepage. The script performs a mapping on the (Unicode) input, but, alas, not to HTML escapes (which would be finde), but to characters of the said codepage that the programmer deems "close enough".

The "Preview" no longer makes good for its name - what a shame!

All this has been discussed endlessly, and in the end the worst possible solution was chosen. Some Western languages turn out OK, most others miss out, and many posters are deceived by the "Preview".

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: DaveRo
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 11:29 AM

Seeing that Ukranian spam this morning, which appeared mainly as ???? I wondered what the current situation was with non-Roman letters.

The upper lines are normal typed or copied letters, the lower lines are encoded into html &-codes. In preview they are the same.

Turkish: ç s g ö ü i
ç ş ğ ö ü ı (the dreaded dotless i)

Ali Babanin bir çiftligi var
Çiftliginde kuzulari var
Mee, mee diye bagirir
Çiftliginde Ali Babanin

Ali Babanın bir çiftliği var
Çiftliğinde kuzuları var
Mee, mee diye bağırır
Çiftliğinde Ali Babanın


Hungarian: long umlauts o u
ő ű

Megy a gozös, megy a gozös Kanizsára.
Kanizsai, kanizsai állomásra.
Elöl ül a masiniszta,
Hátul meg a krumplifeju palacsinta.

Megy a gőzös, megy a gőzös Kanizsára.
Kanizsai, kanizsai állomásra.
Elöl ül a masiniszta,
Hátul meg a krumplifejű palacsinta.


Polish:
c n ó s z l z a e
ć ń ó ś ź ł ż ą ę

Patrzy Wojtus, patrzy, duma,
Zaszly lza oczeta.
Czemus mnie tak oklamala?
Wojtus zapamieta.

Patrzy Wojtuś, patrzy, duma,
Zaszły łzą oczęta.
Czemuś mnie tak okłamała?
Wojtuś zapamięta.

Greek
?de?f? ????ße

Αδελφέ Ιάκωβε

Cyrillic
???? ????! ??

Брат Иван! Эй

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:40 AM

That was using the pre tag in the < > brackets.

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:38 AM

    /\/^^^^\/\
   <          >
  <            >
      ^    ^
     [0]  [0]   
  (     OO     )
     \______/
      \_UU_/
  

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

Recent Microsoft OS (Windows) installations allow you to select any one of approximately 128 different "regionalized" keyboards1 so that you can type in about any language you're likely to want to use. Changing the keyboard to something other than the hardware you have of course doesn't change the labels on the keys.

¹ To see the keyboards at the link you'll need to allow popups, since the keyboard "picture" appears as a popup. You also have to click the "Shift" key to see the shifted chars. You can "snatch the picture" using Alt-PrtScn and paste it somewhere, but no one has found a way to get them other than one at a time.

While recent Windows includes two "extended fonts" called "Lucida Sans Unicode" and "Arial Unicode MS" that include quite a few characters not in common "Western" fonts (about 1,700 chars total), they're not even close to including a complete Unicode character set, although they're sufficiently huge that loading them may cripple some computers. (Use only when necessary.) On most HTML websites, using the extended sets will result in lots of "unreadables," so those should be used only if you need them to typeset your thesis for paper printing.

Even the plain vanilla "Times New Roman" in my Win7 installation includes about 840 characters, which is sufficient for most uses.

In Start|All Programs|Accessories ALL WINDOWS VERSIONS at least since Win95 (I'm not sure about Win 2.0 or 3.1?) should include the "Character Map" that display any font you have installed, displays the characters as they'll print in that font, and gives you the Unicode HEX number for the character, or in a few cases the ANSI number for ones you can enter with Alt-NumPad.

(Of course Bill has a minimum of nine programs to do each little trick, but I don't consider them very necessary when Word does nearly all of them.)

Note that using a font that includes "more characters" is senseless in HTM since you cannot control what fonts anyone readiing (or trying to read) your post will have on their computer.

"It is exceedingly rude, and useless to attempt to specify a font when posting to an HTML website." (Adobe PostScript Bible for Win95, ca. 1997)

John

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST,ketchdana
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 02:25 PM

Let's see if we can add a pop-up comment, or "tool tip".  [Hover mouse here]   YMMV
Not terribly useful, just interesting (if it works).

Bob

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 01:46 PM

Never use the software mentioned by Bill for Mudcat, as amply explained in many threads including this one and this one. You risk being whipped by AC!

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM

(bah)

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 08:31 PM

A helper program for the most common, useful symbols and accents

Subject: RE: HTML Practice Thread
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 13 - 07:11 PM

Gee!
ā