BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine

Subject: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:00 AM

The City of Portland is writing its charter and contemplating adding voting rights in municipal elections for non-citizen immigrants. The thinking is that they are tax payers and deserve representation. Given that they can apply for citizenship and voting rights if they want them, I am not in favor of the change.
Any comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:16 AM

I would like voting rights in Scarborough - as a permanent resident I can't vote and have had to wait five years before I can apply for citizenship. I think that they should give permanent residents the vote for those five years but withdraw the privilege if they don't go for citizenship after that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: olddude
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:48 AM

No I can't agree with non citizens voting ... Nothing bigoted about the thinking ... voting is a citizen act selecting who will represent them ... become a citizen and vote otherwise why not open voting up to everyone in the world and let them elect our new president ... that thinking doesn't make sense to me

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:02 AM

Sorry Jacqui. I agree with old dude. Voting is a privilege of citizenship. If you want it, become a citizen.
The measure was voted down last night with the legality challenges sure to follow the deciding issue. But several immigrant rights groups are planning to circulate petitions to get the issue on the ballot for voters to decide. Since their signatures can not be used in the count, I believe they have a hard road ahead.
Do non-citizens in the UK have voting rights? Or anywhere else in the world? I honestly don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:07 AM

http://www.ronhayduk.com/publications/democracyforall.htm


Apparently many countries allow it including the US. Legal permanent resident non-citizens can and do vote in local elections. Did not know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM

A similar question has been periodically raised by summer folks in Maine, folks who pay property taxes but cannot vote in local municipal elections. It is "taxation without representation" but they are not full-time residents either. The compromise in our town was to shift the annual meeting to the summer so they could at least attend and speak to the issues raised.

I don't particularly object to long term resident aliens voting in municipal elections. It's good practice in becoming involved in their host community, even if they are from another galaxy.

At the same time, I'd be tempted to deport some of our long-standing patriotic citizens but that would be very wrong.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:58 AM

I'm not stepping into this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:39 PM

Here in Ohio they have tried to get voting rights for those who come across the border from West Virginia. So far the movement has been unsuccessful as West Virginians are not involved in it themselves, lacking the abilty to walk and chew gum at the same time let alone read.

Spaw ... Expecting Russ and Janie to show uo here soon

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:48 PM

If you own real property, ie, land, and pay taxes on that property, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:11 PM

Was not that an issue with the Boston tea tax? Yanks were not citizens of the motherland but their taxes were most welcome. In any case they threw it overboard and never again received a good shipment of tea!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:01 AM

Boy, I can see all sides of that issue. At the face of it, it would seem that if you live in a locality, you should have a voice in local issues - especially if you're paying property taxes there. But in Maine, where there are a lot of "summer people," the wealthy part-timers would have an inordinate effect on full-time life in the area. They might tend to vote for reductions or elimination of year-round services like schools or snow removal or libraries. So, I think I'd restrict voting to year-round residents except for certain things like improvement assessments. I don't see where national citizenship is important in local elections. Yeah, I'd let Jacqui vote. I mean, after all, they let her husband vote, don't they?

Non-citizens voting in national elections is a different matter, since there's a matter of loyalty in international relations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:25 AM

A guy was recently arrested for voting in two places here.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM

A shame that, all he was doing was showing a little enterprise to deal with is schizophrenia...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:50 AM

To exclude some tax payers from voting because other tax payers are afraid of the possible consequences of allowing them to vote is, IMHO, NOT a good direction to go in. It is a strategy that has a very poor track record.

Oh wait. Maybe it is a good idea. Whom would I like to exclude? Lets start with Spaw.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:20 PM

The reality is, illegal aliens don't pay taxes, for the most part, and legal immigrants could apply for citizenship. Giving them voting rights is just like allowing foreign money into elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM

legal immigrants could apply for citizenship

Only after five years of having permanent resident status. I would have liked to have a say in what was happening in the local community of which I am a part, even if voting in national elections was not allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

Russ-

I think the transient residents such as "summer folks" (or "summer complaints" as some long term residents refer to them as) form a special category. They seldom are in residence for more than two weeks at a time and they typically vote in their "permanent" residence.

Still, they do have interests that need to be respected and addressed such as fire protection and road maintenance, and in the case of coastal communities dock maintenance.

Occasionally, when there's a whole island of them they endeavor to secede from the town, claiming that their rights are not respected while their property taxes are squandered on such frivolous things as public schools.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:50 PM

Charley,

I understand your point. And it is a good point.

It is just that in the light of the abuses of the 20th century, attempts to restrict voting rights make me very nervous.

So "summer folks" might not want to pay for public schools. What happens when the year-round residents without school age children outnumber the parents who do have them. And these people decide that they don't want to pay for public schools too?

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

Russ-

That does happen to some degree, or at least some middle-aged people without children or retirees without children think that way. They're usually in the minority or realize that voicing such concerns goes against 200 years of public funded education policy and that such a position is short-sighted and selfish. I suppose that would also be a reason why some of those people elect to move to retirement communities where children are not permitted to reside on a permanent basis.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:29 AM

I agree, Charley. Most of the "middle aged" (we're planning on living to 140) people I know recognize the need for first rate education for several reasons. A good school system attracts new residence to the community thereby increasing home values, insures the wellbeing of the community by providing capable workers and educated businessmen and women who will take over or found new businesses of their own, and improves the quality of life via children not running wild when reading, sports, music and community are parts of their lives.


I think my concern comes in when you have a situation like the one in Lewiston. A huge permanent population of Somali immigrants has chaged the face of the town and drained its resources. These are poor people just getting established. One family arrives and settles and convinces other family and community members to join them. Their children require remedial reading and language studies. They need help with housing, food, adult education, etc. Would I want the resident immigrant/non-citizen population deciding where tax dollars are to go? Will they see that roads are important and bridges? Or will they vote to increase services for themselves and their families despite the fact that it will destroy the town?

Not popular questions but a real concern in some communities. They are here legally. They want to live with their own - as would I. They want to work and contribute. They want their children to learn and become productive. But their shear numbers and lack of resources caused real problems for the town.

The mayor unfortunately presented his case in terms that were interpreted as racist. That is a whole other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:55 AM

As to temporary residents, like "summer folks", there's several possibilities:

1. If they live in the community more than half the time, they are residents, period, methinks. I think there's not much question about this in most jurisdictions.

2. If they want to vote in community A, where they have temporary or part-time residency, they should be allowed to vote if they provide affidavits that they do/will not vote in any other local jurisdiction, and documentation from the alternative jurisdiction(s) that they have been stricken from the rolls there. "Only one bite at the apple."

Seems to me that I had another alternative in mind, but my ancient memory is declining to provide it right now. Maybe later.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:54 AM

Dave-

Generally town officials in Maine will take a newcomer's word that they are "permanent" residents of the town if that is their wish. They do have them fill out a form to send to their former hometown to help insure that they only vote in one place.

One would think that a test would be devised by town officials to insure that potential residents "qualified" for permanent residency. Some sample questions might include:

1. When did Joe Totman steal the jam jars from Mrs. Murphy's cellar?

2. What are the proper directions from the Town Office to the Town Dump (hint: turn left where the Baptist Church burned down in 1968)?

3. Why was the "pucker brush" cleared out behind the Central School?

4. How do you eat a lobstah?

5. Can you really survive without DSL or Cable?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM

I wonder if time share owners would then qualify to vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

You gotta be careful what you allow.....if being a 'properety owner' is all that is required, rich folks can end up voting in many localities.....

...and when the Supreme Court gives corporations ALL the rights of individuals, it will be 'interesting', hmmmm?

seems to me that a few years residence as a citizen is perfectly reasonable to be sure voting is taken seriously and that the person(s) are genuinely part of the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:59 PM

Maybe we should adopt some sort of compromise—say, a non-citizen counts as three-fifths of a person in the census. Of course we wouldn't allow them to vote, but then the states where a lot of them live would have greater representation in Congress, and the voting citizens of those states would have greater power than the citizens of other states. That's only fair—right?—because they're "voting for two," so to speak. Well, voting for one and three-fifths, maybe, but you get my drift.

I seem to recall this was tried somewhere before....

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

The reality is, illegal aliens don't pay taxes, for the most part, ...

This is not a very safe assumption. In the majority of cases I've seen credibly checked, "Illegals" do have withholding taken from wages, since failure to do so would immediately result in their "discovery." They often don't attempt to file for refunds, since that might also attract unwanted notice. In effect, "successful illegals" quite often pay more taxes than their legal neighbors.

The allowing of votes in local elections, for people with an interest in local issues who don't qualify as "citizens" and/or for other reasons can't vote on national issues is a fairly long-standing practice in some parts of the US. As an example, women were given the vote in school board elections in Kansas nearly 100 years (I'd have to check for exact dates) before they were given the right to vote in national elections. (This was possibly because schools were considered "women's business."?)

Again I'd have to do some checking, but I believe that one woman was even elected to the Kansas State Legislature before women "got the vote" in national elections.

It is well established that no one should be allowed to vote in more than one place, so "snowbirds" with a permanent residence elsewhere would have to choose one place in which to vote, and residence requirements of some minimum time - a different matter than citizenship - have been common. Most localities also have a "registration cutoff," often some months before an election, which would at least inhibit voting by "transients" such as most time-share visitors.

The question should be whether persons who want to vote have significant "vested interest" in the questions on which they are allowed to vote. A vote is, at the bottom line, only asking for an opinion, and those affected by the results of voting should be given reasonable opportunity to express their concerns. But establishing what is "reasonable" in various places and for various purposes has been continuously in contention since about 1610 in some places in the US, and is unlikely to be settled, except perhaps locally, any time soon.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM

Some years ago, in Alberta, Canada, non-citizen property owners were allowed to vote in municipal elections. I was one at the tie.
Dunno what the current regulations are.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM

Just read of a case of an illegal alien who worked in a town in Michigan for years using a fake Social Security number. He was a serviceman at a garage. His troubles began when his boss retired and offered to sell him the business. He had paid cash for the house but when he tried to buy the business the mortgage company found his background did not check out. He was outed.
He and his wife were to be deported. Their children were born in the US and could stay. Many years a tax paying citizen, a good neighbor, a productive member of the town but...
Tough call when there are thousands of criminals wandering around every large US city with no intention of ever contributing anything but chaos. On the other hand, someone else who abides by the law and follows the rules is still waiting to get into the country.
M

Subject: RE: BS: Voting Rights For Non-Citizens-Maine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:47 PM

Many contradictions in the regulations. They need to be revised so that someone like that guy in Michigan can stay. It also seems that some professional athletes and wealthy applicants almost get a pass when they apply.

Digression-
Some years ago, I remember that in New Mexico many birth records or church registers were lost and, in a state that was mostly Hispanic with many small rural villages at the time, some had a hard time proving their citizenship when they applied for passport, etc.
Can't remember exactly the hoops they had to go through but I remember witnesses who could swear to their US birth had to be found.