BS: Texas does it again- conservative books

Subject: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:59 PM

SCHOOL books..

"Conservatives put stamp on Texas textbooks
New social studies curriculum stresses religion over evolution"

I hope this URL remains good

First 2 paragraphs:

"AUSTIN, Texas - A far-right faction of the Texas State Board of Education succeeded Friday in injecting conservative ideals into social studies, history and economics lessons that will be taught to millions of students for the next decade.

Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard. "

Some know that I try to stay in the position of supporting everyone's right to believe and think for themselves, but I am also on record as objecting **strongly** to having such conservative, religious-based ideas IMPOSED on everyone else!
We all know that Texas is a bastion of such attitudes, but it is also becoming a poster-state for limitation of that hallowed idea of 'state's rights'...............

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:05 PM

It is so embarrassing to live in this state when they do this stupid stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

I've been following this. As I understand it, they have not had a final vote, yet?

I've been wondering if a movement could be started in each state to ban buying textbooks from them.

Some of their rewrites of history includes more emphasis on Jefferson Davis being on par with Lincoln as to morality and even reports that some people still celebrate Davis' birthday.

There is so much wrong with what they want to impose...something really needs to stop this bullshit.

SRS, don't worry, we won't hold it against you!:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:24 PM

"...ban buying textbooks from them."... you mean from Texas?

It's not 'from them', it's that they buy so many books that they affect what gets published & printed.

"Decisions by the board — made up of lawyers, a dentist and a weekly newspaper publisher among others — can affect textbook content nationwide because Texas is one of publishers' biggest clients."

That situation affects all of us, whether we live in Texas or not. Authors of many textbooks tend to tailor the details to suit what will sell, and when there ARE competing authors and books, publishers simply don't like to publish ones that have fewer customers....and you'd better believe that conservatives in Texas are aware of this! I lived in Kansas, and we sure saw many of those...

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:28 PM

Ah, I've had it wrong all of these years then. I thought the pubs. were actually Texan and the whole nation bought mostly from them, no matter their agenda. Then what can we do?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM

*WE* can publicly protest and petition OUR school boards to hold the line and not be treated like cattle...or sheep... by what Texas does.

Money counts...and the more states which approve & buy 'fair' textbooks, the less influence Texas will have.

(Hey...Rachel Maddow JUST mentioned this! And the situation is that some of the more hardline conservative board members were voted out...but they are still in office for 10 more months..(why? I don't know)... so they are pushing thru decisions that generally last for 10 years... (seems school boards don't like changing major parts of the curriculum every year...costs money)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:46 PM

"Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers"
Got no issues with that! I may, or may not totally agree. It is the history though, and the truth shall set you free!

"but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard. "
Got issues with some of that though!

"Some know that I try to stay in the position of supporting every one's right to believe and think for themselves, but I am also on record as objecting **strongly** to having such conservative, religious-based ideas IMPOSED on everyone else!"
First let me say that I pass no judgement, nor will I question your opinion or your beliefs(about anything). You've stated them, but I will ask you this! Is there a place, or should there be a place , or could there be a place(?) where "like minded people" could go, live as they wish with their customs and beliefs, but still be part of this new global family.
There is much that goes on in "far far away land", that was really freakin removed from Sudbury, Ontario and in my 52 years. Now all we do is type it up in our search engine and there we are! I may not comment, in print, to much of what is discussed here on Mudcat, but I have peeled myself off the ceiling on more that one occasion! There are.........people, who live in a certain way(s), pratice their way of life, that the courts of this(our)free world have defended, that make me go out of my fucking mind. I don't understand how one persons rights can change how an entire community, county, town, city........can force "US" not to offend them!
Sorry1(I'm Canadian)

How can anyone not like curling?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:01 PM

Had to stop myself from being misunderstood! Deleted a half a page of making myself look worst!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

Well, the US did abandon the gold standard, so I don't see any reason why that fact shouldn't be taught. It would only be a problem if the teacher (or textbook) took a position that this was a good or bad thing, without showing that there are (or were at the time) plausible arguments on both sides.

There's nothing like a little controversy to wake up bored students.

Here's an idea: assign two students to debate whether going off the gold standard would be a good thing. Have them debate it as if it hadn't happened yet, and have them use the same arguments that people used when the problem was being considered. Grade them not on whether their arguments are right or wrong, but whether they are historically accurate--do they accurately depict what some people once believed?

You could do the same thing with any issue that has been debated in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:26 PM

Ummm...3refs...type slower and say what you mean in fewer words.

You ask: "Is there a place, or should there be a place , or could there be a place(?) where "like minded people" could go, live as they wish with their customs and beliefs, but still be part of this new global family. "

If I understand the point correctly, they CAN right now. People in Texas...or anywhere else in the US (I'm not sure about Canada) can believe, worship, comb their hair and eat pie, any way they choose, as long as they don't demand that their neighbors do the same. In this case in Texas, they are warping the school curriculum for everyone to suit their own **subjective** beliefs.

"Live as they wish" shouldn't mean have a rigid, one-rule-fits-all society....the world is too crowded & complicated for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM

"There's nothing like a little controversy to wake up bored students."

right...but that ain't what Texas conservatives are after. The gold standard is a minor part of what is being planned about teaching history. They want to limit what is said about Thomas Jefferson because he advocated separation of church & state....and such stuff....(I'm still reading)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:33 PM

The New York Times suggested that Texas will have less of an effect than they used to because the digital age allows easier tailoring of textbook contents between states than used to be possible... still, it's a whacked out situation for Texans, and probably lots more.

NPR's story

New York Times

"Following three days of impassioned and acrimonious debate, the board gave preliminary approval to the new standards with a 10-5 party line vote. A final vote is expected in May, after a public comment period that could produce additional amendments and arguments." (NPR)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:53 PM

...a public comment period that could produce additional amendments and arguments." (NPR)

I certainly hope so!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:57 AM

Is it Texas that now requires the possibility that global warming is caused by astrology to be taught?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:43 PM

Let's just say that the result these arbiters of text book content wish for as a conservative Christian nation that is opposed to taxes and elects Republicans to office every time. If they can get the content in text books to reflect their wishes, there are a lot of students who won't have teachers who present opposing views, and this will be accepted as "fact." If you can set the ideas early, you do a lot toward achieving your goals. I'd be willing to bet there is no critical thinking component, or it is severely dumbed down, in these text books.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM

Kat - I've never heard of anyone celibrating Davis's birthday in the 30 years I lived in Texas.

So if they plan to mention the beliefs of the founding fathers I wonder if that includes Unitarians?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:59 PM

as I posted on the South Dakota thread:

"It's just too damn bad that ignorance doesn't itch!"

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:12 PM

Good write-up in the NY Times today (online ed.). A few weeks ago,there was a detailed article on their beliefs in the NY Times Magazine section, with full color pictures of well-known paintings (Washington Crossing the Delaware, etc.) with Jesus added.

A shame that books approved by the Texas Board will be taught from across the country. There are alternates available, however, but Texas is such a large market that 'Christian-approved' books will be cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:36 PM

Bill D, I need to appropriate that one. And use it often.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 09:27 PM

Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic"

We ARE a constitutional republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:16 PM

The Constitution describes the U. S. as "a democratic republic of the people, by the people and for the people"

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

Seems my copy of the constituion perished from this earth. Where exactly in the constitution is that sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:05 PM

Actually, it says that each state is guaranteed "...a republican form of government, ..." Article IV. section 4)

But "Beginning with the Constitution's adoption, America has been a Republic. But the dominant trend over the last two centuries has been to make it into a democracy as well, a representative democracy, also know as a democratic republic."

The current Republicans simply don't LIKE the word 'democratic' to be associated with anything positive, and this is an attempt to strip it from any labels and mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:00 AM

No, actually, Bill, the textbooks will call the U.S. a constitutional republic because that's what we are. Do you really think the decision to call us a constitutional republic was made on the basis of the Democrat/Republican labeling that clouds your vision? You need to quit smokin' that stuff man. Long as they have you shaking your fist at the other team, you're not paying attention to who owns the teams.

We could go the way of California, I guess. Schwarzenegger wants to give all kids laptop computers, to save the cost of textbooks. Of course, then there wouldn't even be a 15 member commission to review what is laid in front of the kids' eyes. One person could dictate curriculum with a few keystrokes. Didn't google just eliminate Animal Farm and 1984 from one of their book downloading services? Too "political." We should be thankful for these commissions. If you don't like the one in your state, then do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 01:53 AM

You might want to check your facts before posting assumptions, ichMael. From last summer from HERE (As you will see, Amazon, not Google, pulled them because they were not authorized by the publisher..they are not in the public domain, yet):

If you're into keeping tabs on irony, check this out. Amazon apparently sent out its robotic droogs last night, deleting copies of the George Orwell novels Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four from Kindles without explanation, then refunding the purchase price. As you can imagine, a lot of people caught in the thick of Winston and Julia's love story aren't very happy -- and rightfully so -- the idea that we "own" the things we buy is pretty fundamental to... ownership. We're not sure exactly what happened, but it seems that the publisher of said novels, MobileReference, has changed its mind about selling content on the Kindle, and poof! Amazon remotely deleted all previously purchased copies. It's all a bit Orwellian, is it not? Good thing we "permanently borrowed" hard copies of both from our middle school library, huh? Let Hate Week commence.

Update: According to commenters on Amazon, this message was sent out from the company's customer service department:

    The Kindle edition books Animal Farm by George Orwell. Published by MobileReference (mobi) & Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984) by George Orwell. Published by MobileReference (mobi) were removed from the Kindle store and are no longer available for purchase. When this occurred, your purchases were automatically refunded. You can still locate the books in the Kindle store, but each has a status of not yet available. Although a rarity, publishers can decide to pull their content from the Kindle store.

While that publisher's version of the book may have been removed, it appears other versions of the novels are still available.

Update 2: Drew Herdener, Amazon.com's Director of Communications, pinged us directly with the following comment, and now things are starting to make a lot more sense. Seems as if the books were added initially by an outfit that didn't have the rights to the material.

    These books were added to our catalog using our self-service platform by a third-party who did not have the rights to the books. When we were notified of this by the rights holder, we removed the illegal copies from our systems and from customers' devices, and refunded customers. We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers' devices in these circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:31 AM

Here's an idea: assign two students to debate whether going off the gold standard would be a good thing. Have them debate it as if it hadn't happened yet, and have them use the same arguments that people used when the problem was being considered. Grade them not on whether their arguments are right or wrong, but whether they are historically accurate--do they accurately depict what some people once believed?


"Having behind us the producing masses of this nation and the world, supported by the commercial interests, the laboring interests and the toilers everywhere, we will answer their demand for a gold standard by saying to them: You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: DougR
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:58 PM

Right on Texicans!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

If you don't like what Texas has done,


1. DON'T move to Texas.

2. Tell YOUR state NOT to use the textbooks. IF enough people want a different viewpoint, the market will supply it. IF there is not enough demand, then home school your kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

I admit to a certain kind of agenda myself.

Practically every advance society has made was opposed by the conservatives of the day. Colonialism, slavery, Jim Crow laws—all had their defenders. Civil rights, women's suffrage, Social Security and other welfare programs, all were opposed. Not only with money and force but with rhetoric. We need to hear some of that rhetoric today.

It would help us put things in perspective when we hear the same (or similar) arguments being made today, say, in opposition to health care reform.

*
"One person could dictate curriculum with a few keystrokes."—just like they control the Internet today?
*
Democracy or republic?

The way the words are used today, I'd say we're definitely a republic, because that's the form of government we have, but we are more or less democratic depending on how fairly our election laws are administered.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM

"... the textbooks will call the U.S. a constitutional republic because that's what we are. Do you really think the decision to call us a constitutional republic was made on the basis of the Democrat/Republican labeling that clouds your vision? "

The **decision** to 'correct' the textbooks made by conservatives in Texas was made out of spite for being voted out, and to insert conservative Republican bias into the textbooks fro at least the next 10 years! They want certain words to shine and other words to be put into disrepute. They have admitted as much. Many scholars agree with the analysis I quoted above, and your attempt to reduce the discussion to narrow assertions of your own view doesn't change anything.
My 'vision' is based on 50 years of following BOTH sides of all this and reading and listening. I am quite able to discern the difference between striving for historical accuracy and one-sided
loading of the curriculum with propaganda and subjective flavoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

Amazon. Thank you katlaughing. But the point is still essentially the same. A keystroke could alter curriculum. I'd rather go with commissions, flawed as they might be, and stay with printed textbooks.

And no, Bill D, this isn't an attempt by "Republicans" to suppress the word "Democrat" in Texas. It's just a matter of a conservative state doing what it can to pass along its ideals to its school children. I expect more liberal states do the same in their schools, and I have no problem with that.

If you want to parse words, what word normally follows "Texas Schoolbook" in the mind of politically-minded Americans? I'd say "Depository." I have no doubt that this story was given national attention for a reason, but I think it's more likely the reason is that liberals in America get a gut cramp when they think of the Texas Schoolbook Depository. "Bastards in Texas killed Kennedy when the motorcade passed the Schoolbook Depository." Dems think of Texas Schoolbooks and immediately begin to hyperventilate.

Sounds like I'm younger than you, and I'm already tired of the rope-a-dope tactics of divisive politics. I won't support them any longer. Bush started genocidal wars and blatant torture, and Obama continues. These little schoolbook stories are thrown out bone-like to us so we keep bickering and don't unite on the big issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:17 PM

"Republic" in the Greek sense. Which has nothing much to do with the modern American Republican Party. Quite the contrary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:49 PM

"It's just a matter of a conservative state doing what it can to pass along its ideals to its school children. "

Ain't thet whut I done SAID? Lordy! You make my point FOR me!

Only I said it without the genteel tone you use.
It is not for school books to "pass along **ideals**"!!

The purpose of education should be to give information, and the tools to objectively evaluate information.

If parents wish to put their 'spin' on kids education at home, there is little anyone can do to stop them, but the school system is suppose to be as neutral as possible. Conservatives are constantly fighting this ideal, because they fear...rightly... that if kids learn to think for themselves, they just 'might' not toe the party line and memorize all the 'conservative values' required!

I was fortunate to get a fairly neutral education, even though at times, "Christian values" were presented as if there was no alternative, and in college, I was in a dept. of Philosophy where **thinking** was stressed. When I graduated from college, I was suddenly awash in a city where it was difficult to work & play without being judged by how I answered 'certain questions' about my political & religious views. I got pretty good at it, but it was tiresome!

I was once offered a federal job in Texas, but by then I had spoken to several friends who warned me that it was MUCH harder to avoid 'those questions' in many parts of Texas.

   Please...do not insult me by silly assertions about "passing along ideals"... I KNOW what that amounts to under certain situations, and I think I am glad that I was able to raise MY son where the 'ideals' included freedom to decide for himself!

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:09 PM

Sounds like it's more an issue of a suppository than a depository with you. My mistake.

You're being played. I'm no filosofer but I know that this issue doesn't amount to much when compared to the 387 bunker busters that are on their way to Diego Garcia right now. I hope Obama issues orders to form two lines in the FEMA centers--Dems and Reps--just so you folks can keep your eyes on each other. You'd better keep your eyes peeled until they stand you up against the wall. One of those bastards might get away.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM

I don't believe it is the role of text books to support one ideal or another. Facts, that's what should be presented. Just facts.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

I am sure that is generally agreed, Doug, but which ones? An awful lot of Native American history was left out of my public-school curriculum, for example. Good solid facts portraying the brutality of white expansion, and its impact on the (equally omitted) civilization of the tribes who occupied the country before the Vikings (another omission) made it to North America.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:51 PM

And here I always thought that Columbus discovered America. 1492 right?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:49 PM

"Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts; nothing else will ever be of any service to them. ... Stick to Facts, sir! ... In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir-; nothing but Facts!"

--from "Hard Times," by Charles Dickens.

The trouble is, if you don't show how the facts are relevant to current decisions we have to make, the facts become dull, dull, dull.

Without considering how the facts are relevant, how do you decide which facts are worth learning and which are not?

Of course, if you believe the school board should do all the considering, and not the teachers or students, then you would probably support the Texas system.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:06 PM

"387 bunker busters" IF that were true, what do you want me to do about it? Seems just like an interesting way of not not responding to what I said. (and most of the pages on that topics are in French)

No, I am NOT "being played".... all I do is go to the polls and vote the best way I can. There weren't enough of me to keep GW Bush out of power, so now we have MORE problems than any one man can juggle easily.

Let's keep Iran out of a discussion on school books, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:50 PM

Gee. I didn't know I could read French.

More problems than one man can juggle, Mr. D.? I assume you mean "their guy," i.e. Bush, created problems that "your guy", i.e. Obama has to juggle. I agree with your assessment of Obama as a sideshow performer, but I can't agree with your continued slavish devotion to the divisive two-party world view.

As a fellow filosofer, I'm sure you'll agree that the "sides" in America may not be what you perceive them to be. I mean, it's possible that what we have isn't a left/right thing. It could be more of a labor/management thing, in which case Obama would be management. And you would be labor. Bush would have been management. You could also view the arrangement as the oppressors vs the opressees. You're an opressee. So am I, but the difference between the two of us is that you work to keep the opressors in their places of power, while I'm trying to get them off our backs.

In doing what I have to do (pointing out to both Dems and Reps that they're being used), I must necessarily comment on stories like the Texas schoolbook thing, which is of little or no importance in the larger scheme of things. "Your guy" is about to launch World War 3 and what are you focused on in the calm before the storm? Oh, yeah...textbooks and Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

*sigh*...Ok..I can tell when I am getting nowhere trying to be relatively serious.

French: I SAID most sites...I saw the couple that were in English. And YOU make some amazing leaps from some supposed contracts to "starting World War 3"

It seems to me that IF munitions ARE indeed being positioned, that this has been part of military planning for centuries. I have NO idea IF it is in face true, what the intent is, or what might be the justification......while I DO see and hear every day what is going on in Texas, and hear from many sources the goals & stated justification of those perpetrating this nonsense.

You have a very pessimistic view of everything ANY government does, it seems, and it colors and distorts what you listen to and your understanding of what is 'data' and what is merely rumor and speculation.

I choose to give Obama the 'benefit of the doubt'...he says what I want to hear, whereas Bush did not. I choose to act as though Obama is not lying until I have some serious reason not to.

and... I also choose to no longer wear out my untrained, tender typing fingers trading remarks with someone who spells my degree 'filosopher' and makes cynical remarks instead of sticking to anything resembling the subject.

Go start a thread on Iran & WWIII.... maybe someone wants to nod wisely with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

With the textbooks, more than Republican-vs-Democrat it's Evangelical Christian -vs-Everybody Else.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:32 PM

Thank you for having the courage to admit you hear what you want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:52 PM

Oh, sorry mousethief. Didn't see your post. I was responding to Mr. D.

Don't know about the Evangelical stuff. I live in TX and it must be half Hispanic now. Predominantly Roman Catholic. The Evangelicals get the air time because the national media wants to demonize Texas, for various reasons. Or so it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:58 AM

As far as I can remember, the original "Ishmael was shunned by everybody.

I begin to understand why.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:49 AM

"{"Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers"
    Got no issues with that! I may, or may not totally agree. It is the history though, and the truth shall set you free!}"




               I didn't think there were a lot of Jews involved in the founding of the United States. Maybe it was the text books we had back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:26 AM

BillD,

1. look out your side door 8-{E


2. Your statement is logically equivilent to the following- so I will accept NO critism of my statement.

"I choose to NOT give Obama the 'benefit of the doubt'...he says what I don't want to hear, whereas Bush did. I choose to act as though Obama is lying until I have some serious reason not to."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

Speaking of the Shrub - he would have been wiser to stay silent and let some think him a fool, rather than open his mouth and remove all doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

It appears that none were Jewish, few were anything like the fundie nutters of the present day, and some were rationalists humanists and atheists.

Most were rich and sucessful.

Many were lawyers.

Very few were home educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:55 AM

"I live in TX and it must be half Hispanic now. Predominantly Roman Catholic. The Evangelicals get the air time because the national media wants to demonize Texas, for various reasons." ~ ichMael

Well, in big round numbers, herez yer Texas demographics:

         45% White

         40% Mexican

         10% Black

          *5% "other"

*includes American Indians, Oriental folks, and everybody else, but I believe Jews, Arabs, Indians (from India), Pakistani, and other Caucasians are listed as part of "White", which makes the Mexicans the largest single ethnic group in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

BB..:
1. I did...thanks...

2. "Your statement is logically equivilent to the following- so I will accept NO critism of my statement."

piffle! It has no such 'logical' connection. Your rewording damages the very concept.
My statement says simply that Obama's positions, as stated, are similar to my own and that I see, so far no reason to doubt that he means what he says.
   And I have ALWAYS been open to clear, reasoned critiques....even as I reserve, as we all do, the right of dissent when critiques seem neither clear or reasoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

"Very few were home educated."

         Which would explain why they rarely sounded like Ann Coulter when they talked.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

"If America's lucky, what happens in Texas will stay in Texas -- at least when it comes to education standards. It would even betterÊif the right wing's destructive manipulation of the state's schools wasn't happening at all. Last week, the Republican-dominated Texas Board of Education approved a social studies curriculum that extols the importance of the National Rifle Association, Phyllis Schlafly, Confederate leader Jefferson Davis, and Joseph McCarthy.

Right-wing board members removed Thomas Jefferson from "a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century"; many of them bear ill will toward the third U.S. president because he coined the term "separation between church and state." They also decided to require U.S. history classes to teach the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Last week's vote was the culmination of a decades-long plot by social conservatives to gain control over the influential Board of Education and, ultimately, the power to impose a far-right ideology on the nearly 5 million schoolchildren in Texas. Unfortunately, what's happening in the Lone Star State may spread nationally: Texas is one of the largest textbook buyers in the nation, and publishers, eager to get the business, often tailor their books to the state's standards.

IN WITH NEWT GINGRICH, OUT WITH SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: The Texas Board of Education is trying to create an alternate universe where McCarthy's dangerously slanderous allegations were true, Ronald Reagan was the greatest president in U.S. history, the separation of church and state doesn't exist, global warming is a myth, and people of color barely exist. The board voted 10-5 along party lines to give preliminary approval to these changes last week, and they will likely give final approval in May. Although the state has a large Latino population, efforts by Latino board members to "include more Latino figures as role models" in the curriculum were consistently defeated. At one point, a board member stormed out, saying, "They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don't exist. They are going overboard, they are not experts, they are not historians. They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world." Republican Don McLeroy, the board's leading conservative crusader, lost a battle to "remove hip-hop and insert country music in its place from a proposed set of examples of cultural movements." Telling, however, was Republican Pat Hardy's justification for including hip hop: White people listen to the music too. "These people are multimillionaires, and believe me, there are not enough black people to buy that," she said. "There are white people buying this." Important liberal figures are also being wiped out of U.S. history. The Republican majority voted against requiring Texas textbooks and teachers to cover the late Democratic senator Edward Kennedy, the first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, and leading Hispanic civil rights groups. (Hillary Clinton and Thurgood Marshall, the country's first African-American Supreme Court justice, will be taught.) Instead, students will learn about "the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s." "We are adding balance," said McLeroy. "History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left."Ê

RIGHT-WING PLOT TO TAKE OVER TEXAS' EDUCATION SYSTEM: McLeroy may be one of the most influential education officials in Texas, but he's certainly no expert. "The way I evaluate history textbooks is first I see how they cover Christianity and Israel," he told the Washington Monthly. "Then I see how they treat Ronald Reagan -- he needs to get credit for saving the world from communism and for the good economy over the last twenty years because he lowered taxes." Beginning in the 1960s, social-conservative "citizen activists" started taking advantage of the state's "little-known citizen-review process that allowed the public to weigh in on textbook content." Publishers began "self-censoring" their books to avoid protests by these activists. The situation became so absurd that in 1995, the Texas legislature finally intervened "after a particularly heated skirmish over health textbooks -- among other things, the board demanded that publishers pull illustrations of techniques for breast self-examination and swap a photo of a briefcase-toting woman for one of a mother baking a cake." The mid-90s is also when the Texas GOP began aggressively going after local school board races and in 2006, Republicans claimed 10 of the 15 Board of Education seats. One of the ideologues on the board is Cynthia Dunbar, who has called public education a "tool of perversion." In 2007, Gov. Rick Perry (R) named McLeroy, a suburban dentist, as chairman. The standards the board is now voting on were recommended by right-wing friends of the conservative bloc, including "a Massachusetts-based preacher who has argued that California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were God's punishment for tolerating gays." Although the Texas Education Agency originally assembled a team of teachers and professors to review the standards,ÊMcLeroy pushed them out. The Board of Education's right-wing agenda has been aggressively pushed by Fox News in recent weeks, with the network claiming that liberals in the state are trying to remove mentions of Christmas and Independence Day from textbooks. The claims were so outrageous that the Texas Education Agency put out a press release debunking them. McLeroy may have gone too far: He recently lost his primary re-election battle to a more moderate Republican.

SPREADING OUTSIDE OF TEXAS: As the New York Times explains, Texas' standards "serve as a template for textbook publishers, who must come before the board next year with drafts of their books." Because the Texas market is so large, books for the state's students "often rocket to the top of the market, decreasing costs for other school districts and leading them to buy the same materials." "The books that are altered to fit the standards become the bestselling books, and therefore within the next two years they'll end up in other classrooms," said Fritz Fischer, chairman of the National Council for History Education. While Texas's ultra-conservative positions were generally balanced "by the more-liberal pull of California, the nation's largest textbook market," California has delayed buying new textbooks until 2014, giving Texas "unparalleled power to shape the textbooks that children around the country read for years to come." Textbook publishers have become nervous by the bad publicity, saying that they now have the ability "to deliver completely customized content" to different states. The situation in Texas, however, has also made textbook authors uneasy and wondering whether they'll be comfortable endorsing their own books. "I'm made uncomfortable by mandates of this kind for sure," said Paul S. Boyer, University of Wisconsin-Madison professor emeritus and author of several popular U.S. history textbooks, including some that are on the approved list in Texas.
Ê(The Progressive)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:19 PM

They'll never accept the Texas text books in Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:16 PM

re: Amos' post detailing the danger of the Texas move to affect the educational patterns of both Texas & the country...

"One of the ideologues on the board is Cynthia Dunbar, who has called public education a "tool of perversion."...I watched Cynthia Dunbar last night as she dodged direct questions about her views. She is a teeny bit more aware than McElroy about how extreme statements will play on national TV, but spreads them liberally ,,ummmm... widely ...in Texas.
   
Make no mistake...if some moderate Republicans do not speak up and help expose this blatant attempt to impose dogmatic conservative views on the entire operating machinery of the country, they will lose what credibility they still have.

This not a game! This is serious stuff....and I don't have to invent examples... the extremist conservatives TELL us exactly what they have in store if they ever get the right foothold.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:34 PM

"We are adding balance," said McLeroy. "History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left." -- How true this is. Academia is skewed too far to the left.

Sotomayor (mentioned in the article) is a good example of the left skewing. "The Republican majority voted against requiring Texas textbooks and teachers to cover the late Democratic senator Edward Kennedy, the first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor..." Do you folks know anything about Sotomayor? She was a member of La Raza (may still be). La Raza means "the race." She was a member of a political group based on race. What does La Raza advocate?

"We have an aging white America ... They are dying ...We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him." ~ Jose Angel Gutierrez, La Raza Founder

Things HAVE gotten a bit out of hand when liberals think that kind of garbage should be taught in public schools. The states have no choice but to step in and put a stop to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:17 AM

...if some moderate Republicans do not speak up... they will lose what credibility they still have.

At this point in time, and with their resounding silence, they HAVE none left to lose & have not had for some time.

Of course, Texas has traditionally harbored a near numerical majority of right-wing nutcases as Molly Ivins and Jim Hightower and for that matter Kinky Friedman - have amply documented.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:19 AM

I can't imagine why Sotomayor or Edward Kennedy would be in a text book anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

You can't? They are part of **history**! It IS possible to report and explain history without judging or taking sides. Ted Kennedy was a major figure in politics and a respected Senator for almost 50 years.
(and Sotomayor is being subjected to the same broad type of 'smear by association' campaign that ACORN is...there is NO evidence that she harbors any racial bias.)

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

Was it Trent Lott who was hounded out of office because he had something nice to say about Strom Thurmond?

Meanwhile, Sotomayor was on the GOVERNING BOARD OF LA RAZA FOR SIX YEARS. Some info on La Raza:

La Raza teaches that Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington State make up an area known as "Aztlan" — a fictional ancestral homeland of the Aztecs before Europeans arrived in North America. These areas belong to the Latinos and Latinas and must be surrendered to "La Raza" once enough immigrants, legal or illegal, come to constitute a majority, as in Los Angeles. Once this is achieved, the current borders of the United States will simply be obliterated.

But the "reconquista" won't end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of "Aztlan."

Miguel Perez, a La Raza spokesman at Cal State-Northridge, has been quoted as saying: "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled — opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power."

http://alwaysonwatch2.blogspot.com/2009/07/sotomayor-and-la-raza.html

Haven't checked out the site. Just the first one to turn up when I typed in Sotomayor Governing Board. The information is accurate.

So, you have a woman who was not just a member of a group that advocates racial cleansing, but she was on the GOVERNING BOARD FOR SIX YEARS. And there are people in this country who think that such a person should be lauded in textbooks? She and her principles should be held up as exemplary?

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

Straight from a famous part of the horses's anatomy, Texas-born...

                                                                           Mario Obledo

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM

ICh,

I believe you are spreading fumes.

Aside from some reactionary blog, is there any documentation of this service of SOtomayor on the governing board of La Raza?

If so what is the "La Raza" of which she was on the board--the same La Raza that serves up the wild-eyed Azatlan pap? Or some other group>?

And what issues or actions did she handle while so serving?

Let's get some facts clearly in mind before we go off hollering and arm-waving.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:54 PM

"But the "reconquista" won't end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of "Aztlan.""

I think there's a thread all about people like you, only in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM

Some really good reading about Atzlan by a guy named Chang...

                                                                The Allure of Aztlan

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

If (note the "if") the stated area was once part of a self-governing Aztec state, and if (note the "if") the descendants of the people of that state are those called "chicanos", how does the position of La Raza significantly differ from that of the Irish Republicans (save by geography).

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

"Was it Trent Lott who was hounded out of office because he had something nice to say about Strom Thurmond?"

Nice? Sure...then he added a bit...
"...When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over the years, either."

Nice reasonable fellow, Mr. Lott...who represented the bigoted views of many of his constituents quite well.

"In 1998, Lott caused some controversy in Congress when as a guest on the Armstrong Williams television show, he equated homosexuality to alcoholism, kleptomania and sex addiction. When Williams, a conservative talk show host, asked Lott whether homosexuality was a sin, Lott simply replied, "Yes, it is."

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM

The concept of Aztlan--if one is to assume it ever existed--differs quite a bit from the position of the Irish Republicans in a number of ways. First of all, one has to assume the (if's) are givens, and then realize that the area in question wasn't taken by force of arms and then repatriotized by people planted there from another area as a matter of policy.

             The original inhabitants were never part of one single group of people, there were many tribes and they died off from disease prior to the arrival of Europeans--the European diseases preceded them. The Europeans came from different places, not all representing a single government, and they fought wars between themselves. In addition there were people from other places--Asia and Africa.

             The resistance was never unified once the take over started, because it was never unified before he take over started.

Subject: RE: BS: Texas does it again- conservative books
From: ichMael
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:03 PM

Can't find the info on Sotomayor's leadership role in La Raza now. Oh well. She was a member and that's enough. La Raza, "The Race"...yeah, membership in that's a real plus on your resume.

I found that her leadership role in the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund (PRLDEF) is well-documented. Those darlings think it's "insensitive" to criticize the FALN. Man. The Judicial Watch piece about that is gone, but mention of it can be found HERE.

And it makes sense to have Sotomayor on the court now that Obama's launched his assault against the American school system. Obama's a union buster. His target is the American Federation of Teachers, and fergitabout any kids that get in the way. Obama's going to be shoving charter schools in our faces now, and Sotomayor's in place to rule favorably on them. Below is an excerpt regarding a charter school:

"The Race" sponsors and supports militant ethnic nationalist charter schools subsidized by your public tax dollars (at least $8 million in federal education grants). The schools include Aztlan Academy in Tucson, Ariz., the Mexicayotl Academy in Nogales, Ariz., Academia Cesar Chavez Charter School in St. Paul, Minn., and La Academia Semillas del Pueblo in Los Angeles, whose principal inveighed: "We don't want to drink from a White water fountain, we have our own wells and our natural reservoirs and our way of collecting rain in our aqueducts. We don't need a White water fountain . . . ultimately the White way, the American way, the neo liberal, capitalist way of life will eventually lead to our own destruction."

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11444

Lol. I love that "neo-liberal." All you libs who support this crap...they hate you. The people who want to destroy America hate you more than they hate me. They hate your death wish.

Anyway, Obama's been assigned various tasks. One is to gut Medicaire, and he's trying to do that now, and the next task will be to gut education. Gotta break a few eggs to wreck a country, now if only those pesky patriots with their schoolbooks would get out of the way.