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BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
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Subject: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM I mean when it comes to politics. I'm just thinking of the elections we've got here in the UK now. I mean there's plenty of scorn and arguing, but there's not much in the way of genuine hate. Of course the differences between our parties is less than it used to be, resulting in widespread apathy. But the differences between your parties in the States are pretty minor, when it comes to actual issues. Two wings of our Conservative Party at daggers drawn with each other. Plenty to argue about, but why the level of hate? It occurs to me that maybe there's a feeling that in order to have an argument you have to work up a personal fury against the people you are arguing with - the kind of thing that sometimes crops up in threads on the Mudcat. Very strange. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Greg F. Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM I for one don't "hate" members of any political party left or right for being members of the party of their choice. What I DO hate are liars, stupidity and ignorance. If the shoe fits- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:33 PM People hate because they feel threatened. The Religious Right in this country feel that their American Christian way of life is being threatened, and they will no longer be able to do the things the Bible requires of them (go to church, teach their kids evolution, carry guns). The left fears that their political freedoms will be taken away (growing medicinal pot, listening to NPR, voting). Both are partly right and partly wrong. It's not a good mix. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:35 PM Where does the Bible say anything about guns? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:38 PM Sorry, not teach their kids evolution, teach their kids creationism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:40 PM McGrath: Where does the Bible say anything about guns? That was meant to be humour. Obviously a misfire. Sigh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:44 PM So which were the partly right bits? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:45 PM Heck, I don't hate anyone... Okay, some really piss me off... But hate??? Nah... But I sho nuff hate alot of the behaviors I see on the republican/right side of the political divide... I think it is mnot only racist but hypocritical... And I hate folks sayin, "Well, geeze... Both sides are guilty of it..." No, they are not... Just like here with my problems with a cyber-stalkier who is obsessed with me, yeah, I'll try to defend myself but it ain't me who is initatin' the conflict... All, I'm doing is counter punching and that's purdy much waht the Dems have been doing... Hey, it all comes down to grace and the right, for the most part is clueless about what grace is... Doug R is a rare example of someone on the right who undertstands what grace is all about... Most are totally clueless... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: CET Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM I dunno, McGrath, I've seen some genuine political hatred from UK Mudcatters on this website, and I don't mean anti-BNP ranting (which I agree with, by the way). Still, I have to agree that the hatred is mostly directed at Margaret Thatcher, and by extension, anyone who thinks she wasn't entirely evil, and not so much at the current Conservative party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Greg F. Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:50 PM Doug R is a rare example of someone on the right who undertstands what grace is all about Even if I grant your point, Bobert, (which I don't- I can show you his posts, if need be), he's still got his head up his arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM McGrath: So which were the partly right bits? It's true that the Right is losing control, for instance, over the word "marriage." They want it to mean heterosexual marriage, and society is changing in such a way as eventually to make it include homosexual marriage as well. This feels like a direct attack against biblical morality, which they feel obliged to uphold. The country has lost a lot of rights since Reagan, for instance the 4th amendment right against unreasonable seizure. McCain has sponsored (or co-sponsored, I think) a bill that would take away the right to trial and habeas corpus. These attacks have come from conservative judges/justices, or Republican legislators (or presidents). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Ebbie Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:55 PM "It occurs to me that maybe there's a feeling that in order to have an argument you have to work up a personal fury against the peop0le you are arguing with - the kind of thing that sometimes crops up in threads on the Mudcat."McGrath Kevin, I see that Edmund has addressed the thought I would like to point out: In my opinion, UKers are FAR more combative and furiously scornful in their behavior toward each other than the USAers normally are. Now this does not necessarily involve political parties, but it does include differing views on just about anything else. It is not just my own observation; Joe O has made the same point in the past. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM That kind of thing generally strikes me as knockabout pantomime stuff for the most part, especially when it's about music. Margaret Thatcher was a special case, an exception that proves the rule. I can't think of any other politician in a hundred years and more that inspired the same reaction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM I certainly don't hate anyone. I have three friends who are so far right they make Rush Limbaugh look like Gus Hall. I have had some very heated discussions with them but if I hated them I wouldn't give them the time of day. I only argue with those whose opinion I value. Besides, I have never learned anything from someone who agrees with me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM Greg F., Whoa... I didn't say that Dougie didn't have his head up his arse... I just said that compared to others here he has his head up hisn arse with a level of grace... lol... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: ichMael Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM America has the Bill of Rights. The big point of contention is between those who care about it and those who don't. Unfortunately, a large number of Americans would rather not think about freedom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:36 PM I think about the freedom that McCain's bill would take away from me. Does the right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: michaelr Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:58 PM Hate comes from fear, and one thing the white right wing fears more than most things is the fact that in a few years the brown people will be in the majority here in the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:33 PM Define freedom, itch... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:43 PM No hate here on this end....however there are those who ACCUSE others of hatred to ennoble their so-called 'cause'. Much of what is happening in the 'news' is rather contrived, then fanned. Take the 'infiltrators' of the Tea Party, for example. They are willing to pretend to be one of them to make an incident, which is false, and blame it on the Tea Partiers. I'm not a Tea Party person, but they, like the students at Berkeley in the 60's have the right to assemble, to free speech, and protest. It's ironic how that is changed, and stifled, by the very people(illusion) who did the same thing!! This is contrived, as our nation is being 'changed' from one form of government to another! Peace...LOVE!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM Yes the Teabaggers have so much love. Infiltration seems pointless. But that doesn't make the Teabaggers right, no more than the student protests that blocked access or damaged buildings in the 1960s were right. And if "kill him!" isn't hate, you need your dictionary calibrated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:07 PM "But that doesn't make the Teabaggers right," Right or not, they should be allowed their voice. It's the others that are out of line. Disagreeing is no reason to employ fraudulent means, and smear tactics....or hate speech! Not disagreeing with you Mouser... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM Agree, they should be allowed their voice, however much I disagree with it. That's American democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:13 PM The "right wants marriage to mean heterosexual marriage." So does the Catholic hierarchy. So do many in the Islamic hierarchies. And so do many rank and file members. Are they all 'righties? I also find it amusing that someone who hasn't posted to this thread is an object of derision- and by extension- hatred?- by lefties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:14 PM Hatred is much safer in the UK where we do not have gun nuts. But I have come to the view that hatred of the lunatic right is part of human evolution. They are dangerous and threatening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:20 PM Q: The "right wants marriage to mean heterosexual marriage." So does the Catholic hierarchy. So do many in the Islamic hierarchies. And so do many rank and file members. Are they all 'righties? I was talking about politics. That some religious group has the same beliefs or goals as the religious right in this country seems to me completely irrelevant. I was talking about one specific group. They are collectively called the "Religious Right" and have been for 30 years. I noted one of their goals/desires. I don't see what the Catholic Church has to do with it, or whether the word "right" should apply to them or not. I'm not saying the group is right because they believe such-and-such about marriage. I'm saying the group is right AND they believe such-and-such about marriage. Clear now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:34 PM Greg F, I've had own my squabbles with Doug R, but it's particularly graceless to be slagging off a 'catter who isn't even in the thread. I can't say I've seen much evidence for McG's generalisation. Au contraire I am struck by the predisposition of many Americans to respect their political opponents almost regardless of how strongly they may disagree with them. For my part I see no point respecting people who peddle (say) immoral values when they are well enough educated to know better. But I suppose I do take this intolerance to a greater extreme than most fellow Brits. I shudder to think what kind of an impression is created in other countries by the weekly horror show of Prime Minister's questions. It is far from typical of the work that goes on at Westminster, but it puts on display a level of puerile rancour that I've seldom seen in US politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Greg F. Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:45 PM Just following Doug's example, Pete- check him out some time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Ebbie Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:57 PM "That kind of thing generally strikes me as knockabout pantomime stuff for the most part, especially when it's about music." McGrath in response to the perception that UKers are more virulent in their disagreements. Kevin, perhaps "knockabout pantomime stuff" is a matter of differences in culture. To me it comes across as graceless bludgeoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:59 PM Mousethief- "The Christian right (also known as the religious right and the evangelical bloc) is a term used predominantly in the USA to describe a spectrum of right-wing Christian political and social movements and organizations characterized by their strong support of conservative social and political values. The politically active social movement of the Christian right include individuals from a wide variety of conservative theological beliefs, ranging from traditional movements within Baptist, Mormon, and Calvinist organizations to theologically conservative groups within Lutheranism, Calvinism and Catholicism." ............ Religious right "can refer to any religiously motivated conservative movement,..... For example conservative Christians, Muslim social conservatives and Orthodox Jews cooperate in national and international projects through the World Congress of Families and United Nations NGO gatherings." Above extracted from Wikipedia. Religion seems to be a large part of "religious right." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Arkie Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:01 PM I am certainly disturbed by the level of hatred expressed primarily by some of the so called radical right in the US. People were accused of being Bush haters during his administration, but it was usually addressed to people who criticized Bush policies. We now see hatred at a different level and while it is usually the result of fear, that fear is being exploited and inflamed by such as Beck and Limbaugh and even some Republican leaders and some religious leaders. I do not know if other countries have their counterparts of these dangerous extremists. They encourage their audience to act without thinking and base arguments upon misinformation if not outright lies. When bloggers are thrown into the mix and mass emailings there is an even greater force generating hatred. Then add the power of persuasion convincing people that only Fox News or certain people can be trusted to provide the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Maryrrf Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:11 PM I echo Arkie's sentiments. I am occasionally subjected to Glen Beck's odious television program. The man is a liar, a dangerous extremist who has snagged an audience and is exploiting their fears. There is a very ugly sentiment brewing on the far right, and I don't like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM Q: Religion seems to be a large part of "religious right." Clearly. This doesn't make your question relevant, however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: ichMael Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:30 PM Limbaugh and Beck are paid to do a job. They are gatekeepers. They herd their listeners into thinking one way, and NPR herds you folks into thinking another way. Divide and conquer. This is done in America by the big foundations. You see their names all over PBS programming. They paid for Clinton and Obama's educations. Institutalized divisiveness. Don't fall for it. I do wish we had a system where the president was grilled once a week by congress, like the Prime Minister's questioning. Bush would have lasted a month, Obama a couple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM The problem with your thesis, ichMael, is that even your strawmen won't stand. NPR for example explores a variety of different perspectives and kinds of existence, and compares them to each other. Beck and Limbaugh denounce, decry, condemn and hector against any kind of life not within their narrow band of approved sentiments. Tehre's a world of difference and they are not at all, despite your fervent assertion, comparable in style or effect. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mg Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:20 PM For one thing we had a huge civil war in which half of America lost, and was treated very badly in the aftermath. That will take a long time to heal. We are multicultural and that brings various alliances etc. We have a heritage of packing up and moving..maybe that plays a part. But although there is a great deal of disrespect, I am not sure about hate. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:49 PM What big foundations paid for Obama's and Clinton's educations? (Post up above sommewhere).Probably none. Obama's education was paid for scholarships and his grandmother (a vice-president of Bank of Hawai'i), and by his mother's second husband, Mr. Sotero (forget his first name); employed by Shell and the Indonesian Oil company, Petronas, member of several golf clubs). Dunno about Clinton. Too lazy to look it up, but I doubt that the foundations that contribute to PBS entered into it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: mousethief Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:17 AM Amos: NPR for example explores a variety of different perspectives and kinds of existence, and compares them to each other. Isn't that liberals all over? That just screams "left wing". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:55 AM Getting back to the Tea Party, for a moment...they are accused of being homophobes, racists, morons...etc etc......if that is true, why is the left, posing as them, to do mischief, to discredit them??...Perhaps the accusations from the left are also false!......("perhaps", rolls eyes!) Methinks they are just ordinary folks, tired of the government's act! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:04 AM Fugitive from sanity, your paranoia is showing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Royston Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:46 AM An argument that seems like graceless bludgeoning, Ebbie, is just one in which the observer has no strong personal interest. Shall we open up another 'USA Religion' thread? I hope not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Royston Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:49 AM And to answer the OP, I don't see Americans hating each other. I see the strength of opinion between two sides of a political divide. All very important, very healthy. When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like this so called Tea Party, you need a pretty robust backlash, IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:21 AM Those who have commented on the religious right I think answer Harlow's question (anyone remember the "I HATE Obama!!!" preacher passionately praying before a congregation that God would smash Obama's face in or "break his face" or something? Utterly unthinkable in the UK). While there might be *some degree* of cross-over between Conservative voters and CofE types, on the whole people in the UK prefer to keep politics and religion distinct, and the extremism and rage evident in the so-called Christan Right simply isn't there. But then neither is the Christian extremism, which is perhaps where the "political hatred" arises from in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM sister has lived in Chicago for the past 50+ years; & I have dear and cSurely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery. I observed something of the same sort on another such thread as this once before: and stood back waiting for the flak which was sure to follow and zoom around my innocent head; but to my surprise I got enthusiastic support in those observations from over here, together with several shrugs of pained recognition from Over There. Wonder how it will go all down this time. I love you, America. I have always felt most happy and been made to feel very much at home on my frequent visits to East, West & Middle America. My beloved late wife's beloved sister has lived in Chicago for 50 years, and I have close friends in NY, LA, SF, and cousins with whom I am close regular correspondent terms in DC/Va. But I still feel that the truth of my observations above cannot be gainsaid. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:03 AM Sorry ~~ above post got confused ~ please disregard. I try again. ~~~ Surely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery. I observed something of the same sort on another such thread as this once before: and stood back waiting for the flak which was sure to follow and zoom around my innocent head; but to my surprise I got enthusiastic support in those observations from over here, together with several shrugs of pained recognition from Over There. Wonder how it will go all down this time. I love you, America. I have always felt most happy and been made to feel very much at home on my frequent visits to East, West & Middle America. My beloved late wife's beloved sister has lived in Chicago for 50 years, and I have close friends in NY, LA, SF, and cousins with whom I am close regular correspondent terms in DC/Va. But I still feel that the truth of my observations above cannot be gainsaid. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Greg F. Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:17 AM For one thing we had a huge civil war in which half of America lost... Britain seems to have gotten over their equally "huge" Civil War just fine. The Neo-Confederate Bullshit Machine is what keeps ours going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Donuel Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:21 AM Unlike Hutu tutsi, Sunni Shitte, Catholic Protestant, tribal religious divides elsewhere the American culture war is funded by large corporations in order that elections of the wealthy class candidates have a base of religiously motivated people help elect people who will do the bidding of the wealthy ruling class. With the Republican party now weakened by the Bush fiasco a new party established by FOX news is now pandering for a base of single issue people to dupe. Who eats who? http://usera.ImageCave.com/donuel/snake.jpg + |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: beardedbruce Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like the far left, you need a pretty robust backlash. And the TeaParty is providing that, IMHO. BOTH sides have the right to present their points of view. NPR is center to left, Fox is center to right. BOTH have extremists with opinion programs. Amos, "Beck and Limbaugh denounce, decry, condemn and hector against any kind of life not within their narrow band of approved sentiments." Beck has strong opinions- and expresses them almost as loudly as you have. You have a problem with that? At least he backs his opinion up with SOME facts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much? From: Greg F. Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like the far left..... FAR LEFT? You wouldn't know the "far left", Bruce, if it reared up on its hind legs and bit you on the ass. The fact that there is virtually no such bloc or party or constituency in the United States simply points out the delusional world you apparently inhabit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Amos Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM Bruce: You are being obdurate and inordinately unperceptive. The very idea that there would be a parallel between my calm, compassionate, reasoned, analytical statements and Glen Beck's high-dollar buffoonery is risible and cross-eyed. Go to. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:48 AM Kevin......Let me get back on track here by saying that we really don't hate each other, we hate you. I don't mean Brits in general, I mean YOU personally. I don't know all the reasons why we hate you Kevin except to say you just piss all of us off. We took a poll though and if you'll post the word "Gorglesnorf" in your next post, all is forgiven. We can't remember what that "all" is but we'll forgive it and we'll happily love you. Until then.......Fuck-Off Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: beardedbruce Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM Amos, I disagree. Although Glen Beck does weem to provide a little more factual basis for his rants than you have, recently. Greg F, Another attack on a person who presents something you disagree with, as opposed to a reasoned comment on the facts. You seem determined to prove my point: "Just stop insulting and bullying the people who don't happen to agree with you about some issue or another." He can't do that. Since he has no valid basis to defend his own opinions, nor to attack the opinions of others, he is forced to attack the people who disagree with him. Or at least that is what is to be derived from his past posts. Compared to the central (ie, the high point of the bell curve) there is both a far Left and far Right. To deny either is to ignore reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Amos Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:02 AM Oh, pot! Oh, kettle!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Ebbie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM "Surely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery."MtheGM piffle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Greg F. Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:37 AM ...as opposed to a reasoned comment on the facts... Soon as you present some facts, Bruce, I'll be glad to comment on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:21 PM PIFFLE, Dear Ebbie? Why ~ You will make me cry ~~ Piffle?!? SNIFFLE!!! xxx~M~xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Ebbie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:39 PM :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Jim Dixon Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM I can think of a few differences between the American and British political systems that partly account for the difference. First, there's our arcane election system. It's almost inevitable that the losing side will feel that it's been cheated somehow. In presidential elections, our electoral college makes it possible for one candidate to win the popular vote and still lose the election. (In Britain, it's also possible for one party to win a majority of seats in Parliament without getting a majority of votes nationwide, but Britons don't seem particularly concerned about this.) The fact that every state makes its own election laws makes us all suspicious that sleazy practices in another state will affect us all. (In Britain, the fact that election procedures are uniform apparently gives everyone confidence that everything's working right.) And since there is no national supervision of election procedures, practices in some areas CAN be sleazy. (But most people seem to support the system in their own state.) Our elections are held more frequently—every two years for congress, every 4 for president—and our candidates can spend an unlimited amount of money over an unlimited span of time—which means we are in an almost perpetual state of fundraising and campaigning. Lobbying groups and "swift-boater" groups can also spend an unlimited amount trying to influence elections, politicians, or public opinion. Legislation often gets hung up on procedural matters. Bills can pass one house but not the other, or they can pass both houses and then be vetoed by the president. Or they can be enacted into law and then be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Whichever side loses is bound to cry "foul!" The British system seems simpler. The House of Commons seems to be the only house that matters (I don't really understand what the House of Lords does nowadays.) and whichever party is in the majority seems to be able to do whatever it wants, with no constraints except their own consciences and whatever regard they have for public opinion. The losing side, the opposition, seems to accept its position more graciously than in the US. In other words, in the US, people just don't seem to have confidence in the fairness of the system. There never seems to be a "clean" win and loss—none that the losing side ever accepts without protest, anyway. They keep saying and thinking: We should have won—we would have won if only the election had been run fairly—if only the other side hadn't lied and cheated—if only the media had let us tell our side of the story properly—if only they hadn't "bought" the election—if only they hadn't pulled that sneaky procedural trick—if only the public knew the truth about Obama's birth certificate—if only they had interpreted the constitution properly, and so on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:53 PM So it were lefties who spit on the black Congressman and who shouted "nigger" at several black Congressmen... I guess it was these same lefties who called a gay Congressman a "faggot"??? Man, ya' learn somethin' new everyday??? BTW, I don't buy that mythology... When I was organizing anti-war demonstrations in the late 60s we had a couple of rightie-plants and they stuck out like a sore thumb... So we asked them to leave... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM Bobert: "So it were lefties who spit on the black Congressman and who shouted "nigger" at several black Congressmen... I guess it was these same lefties who called a gay Congressman a "faggot"???t:" I don't understand Bobert (I'm in UK). Are you saying *elected political representatives* did these abusive things, or that these were examples of racist *public* abuse of congressmen? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:06 PM "there is no national supervision of election procedures," There isn't? How can Democracy work properly unless there is a universally agreed and universally employed system for vote gathering? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:10 PM Greg F: "FAR LEFT? You wouldn't know the "far left", Bruce, if it reared up on its hind legs and bit you on the ass." GfS: Bruce, You'll have to forgive Greg F. He maintains that Obama is 'right of center'...according to his earlier post. Richard Bridge: "Fugitive from sanity, your paranoia is showing." "By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — It won't be the last threat Bowles gets this year as he directs an 18-member, bipartisan commission through an ocean of red ink that has never been deeper or more foreboding. Under Obama's budget plan, the USA's debt in 2020 would be nearly the size of the entire economy then. Interest costs would be $900 billion, five times today's level." GfS: Richard,...Enough said????? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM Actually folkies, if anyone felt inclined to discuss the differences between US and UK politics - either here or on another thread - it would make for a fascinating and most illuminating debate! At least for someone like me, as I don't really know how you do things over there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:15 PM McGrath, hate is a matter of interpretation. The Irish would be justified in asking why Mother England hated them so much? Today, in America, there is fear at the helm. It's what FDR warned us about. The hate is really about fear. Would you say that the BNP is not about hate? People all over the world have their fears and hatred, not just America. Why do some English hate the Muslims and East Indians? Rhetorical question. Answer: Fear. This is a loaded post with an assumption that America is a country where all Americans hate each other. This certainly is painting with a generalized brush. Americans live in a country that has democracy as an ideal, therefore, not every American agrees with other American. There is bound to be some enmity somewhere. But this is true of every other country in the world. We are, however, seeing unprecedented violence in our country today and a climate that could breed fascism. This is because Americans are used to having a middle class which is being eroded. Also, corporations and bankers and GOP political leaders are exploiting Americans and encouraging the enmity among certain disenfranchised Americans. I don't think, though, that hatred here is any more pronounced than it is in Britain, or South and Central America or Africa or India and Pakistan or....or....or. I think that violence has reached a worldwide epidemic. As long as violence and intimidation are used to resolve problems, we will not see anything but this hatred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: kendall Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM Lack of old fashioned respect and manners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM ""While there might be *some degree* of cross-over between Conservative voters and CofE types, on the whole people in the UK prefer to keep politics and religion distinct, and the extremism and rage evident in the so-called Christan Right simply isn't there. But then neither is the Christian extremism, which is perhaps where the "political hatred" arises from in the first place?"" Right CS, and it's rather a strange reversal, if you examine it. In the USA, where the Constitution specifically separates religion from government, you have the "Christian Right" peddling hate, and trying to force educators to teach their twisted version of human origin and development, and also, having a significant effect on the way the country is run (through the likes of Bush). In the UK, where the Church of England is the Established National Religion, that Church (with the exception of a few Bishops in the House of Lords) pretty much keeps its nose out of government. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:07 PM ""The British system seems simpler. The House of Commons seems to be the only house that matters (I don't really understand what the House of Lords does nowadays.)"" The House of Lords, used to be occupied by hereditary Peers of the realm (hence the name), and was reformed by the Blair government to remove most of the Lords and replace them with New Labour appointed Peers. It is our upper chamber of government, and its purpose, now and in the past, is to balance the potential excesses of the Government of the day. All government legislation is examined by the Lords, and amendments suggested, where they feel that said legislation is badly drafted. They will also, on very rare occasions, actually refuse to pass a piece of legislation which they consider ill advised in toto. Ultimately, the government can override the Lords by use of a device called the Parliament Act, but usually it is persuaded to make changes, to avoid delay in enacting new legislation. I guess you would call it a safety valve which protects the public from bad Law, though bad 'uns still slip through (Public Entertainment Licencing 2003). Hope this helps. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:15 PM "It is our upper chamber of government, and its purpose, now and in the past, is to balance the potential excesses of the Government of the day." I'm a socialist (or redd commyunist sophialsit if you prefor Teablagger sperling), but I see a value in this system. Mainly because I see downfalls in short-term democracy which require long-term adjustment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the dark side Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM Fugitive "why is the left, posing as them, to do mischief, to discredit them". That paranoia. Yes, Crow Sister, it was other members of the Congress or Senate. There is (as well as Parliament Act procedure, which only applies to Commons bills, with the result that the Licensing Act, a Lords bill, could have been defeated in the Lords if the conservatives and Lib-Dems had both kept their nerve) also the Salisbury Convention a constitutional convention in the United Kingdom which puts forward that the House of Lords will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto. It does indeed seem that there is a need to moderate the dictatorship of the majority, but neither the UK nor the USA seem to ahve got it right, as the excesses of the THatcher years and the Bush and Reagan years show. What seems to be happening in US politics now however is a slumcult demand that there be no intelligent ideas intelligently expressed - as the insult "policy wonk" demonstrates. I don't think it's quite that bad in the UK yet, but "Dave-ishness" has already hamstrung the head boy of Eton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Tunesmith Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM Of course, maybe we should be comparing Europe with the USA. Lots of Brits hate the French just because... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Amos Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:13 PM The answer is that we are all cads and bounders, and smart and sensitive enough to know it. It's a freedom thing... ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:23 PM Richard Bridge: "It does indeed seem that there is a need to moderate the dictatorship of the majority," Yes, what J.S.Mill called the "tyranny of the majority". The ideal balance for me probably resides somewhere between Mill & Marx. I don't know where on earth that balance between common and individual interest has been managed, but certainly not in the UK or USA that's for sure. At least the UK in general are not deluded about it though, while I feel (from what I see on telly) that the USA ensure as far as possible that Mr. & Mrs. Dave are stupid, brainwashed & sedated enough to do as required... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:40 PM "Of course, maybe we should be comparing Europe with the USA." Umm, or maybe no, we'd have to compare like Germany or France or Italy or Spain or Holland or Etc. Etc. something with the USA. Lots of funny countries in that "Europe" landmass, all with their own funny ideas, history and languages and stuff! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:52 PM So far as I can see Dave Cameron's politics seem pretty well the same as Barack Obama's on most issues. Which is why "far left" seems such a very peculiar term to use. ........................ I wasn't suggesting that all Americans hate each other, just that there seems to be a significant minority who appear to erupt into levels of hate that just seem out of proportion to the actual political issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:54 PM I don't think Americans in general really hate each other much, especially on political or religious grounds. I do think, however, that fear-based and ignorance-based hatred is being deliberately aroused and used for political and monetary gain by some of the big power brokers. Our media have become much closer to monopolistic ownership, and that ownership, by big trans-national corporations naturally side with the 'fiscally conservative' Republicans. Those powerful interests also figured out, several decades ago, that if they could convince religious conservatives (e.g., evangelicals) to side with them, the two logically unconnected blocs could together win elections. So you have major radio station corporations unwilling to air any political talk except far right wing talk; corporate sponsors basically effecting censorship of real news, especially if the "news" might be bad for their business; very wealthy televangelists preaching that greed is good; and media messages ad infinitum equating Wall Street's status with the standard of living of the masses. Political shock jocks like Rush Limbaugh and, even moreso, Michael Savage and Glenn Beck, as well as political media darlings like Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, etc., spew venomous epithets ("traitor," "fascist," "terrorist," "communist," etc.) and lies ("death panels," etc.) about just about anyone who happens to be a Democrat or even moderately liberal. Sometimes it's for political gain, but often it's for ratings and publicity. Our Constitutional guarantee of "free speech," coupled with the deregulation of our mainstream media ownership, allows what is truly "hate speech" to be broadcast more widely and readily than might be the case in some other democracies. I do think the hate is mainly coming from the right, and not from the majority of those on the right, either. But the very vocal minority gets a disproportion of media attention, partly because they say and do things that ARE outrageous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:55 PM "It's a freedom thing... ;>)" Damn right it's a 'freedom thing' Amos. Education & information is what freedom is all about. However, British people are generally more cynical about politics & politicians, and frankly I think that's an *essential* stance and not a smug superior one as your post *appears* to imply. Ever glad to be a dissentor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:58 PM 'Dissenter' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM Americans (appear) to hate one another so much (whenever political issues come up) for one simple reason: Their 2-Party system. They have been affected by it from the very earliest age, and it sets them at each other's throats and permanently divides them against one another. This is also true in many other countries, but it seems to be particularly bad in the USA where there is no effective third or fourth party to dilute the focus a little. It's like the Crips and the Bloods. An eternal rivalry of two huge partisan gangs who detest each other, hold each other in contempt, are out to destroy each other (politically speaking). They each live determined to vanquish the other utterly, they each assume that the other represents all kinds of evil and corrupt forces, and they are virtually incapable of getting along with one another when they discuss politics. I've seen that happen in other societies too, but I've never seen it so bad as it is now in the USA. Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM Most don't. Sure is good press, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:19 PM ""Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean."" Isn't that rather the "Politics of Despair" LH. When you see your country taking a disastrous path, just leave, or ignore it and concentrate on enjoying yourself. Pretty much what happened to the Roman Empire, I'd've thought, and a pretty dumb policy. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM However, British people are generally more cynical about politics & politicians, and frankly I think that's an *essential* stance and not a smug superior one as your post *appears* to imply. Yeah but we can be smug because we're Americans and are proud to be superior in most every way to the rest of the world. We use more shit and waste more shit than anyone else on earth and we're damn proud of it. If we lived here and weren't so egotistic and wasteful, we'd be Canucks and who the hell wants that? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM Why do Americans hate one another so much? We don't. The Tea Party people and other, similar, groups in all parts of the socio-political spectrum represent, in toto, a very minute part of the US population. But I am always amused at the way the Yank Haters/Baiters come out of the woodwork in threads like this to describe us in ways that we can't recognize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:42 PM I do despair of politics in the USA, Don, and that's no lie. I'm not suggesting you should, however. You're an American, aren't you? I'm not. I was born in Canada. It is no great emotional trauma for me to live somewhere else than in the USA. Since you are an American, you naturally have a deep committment to the USA that I don't. Some people, however, do wash their hands of politics and they look for other ways to find meaning in life, and that's OKAY. You may recall that Bob Dylan and Joan Baez fell out over that very issue. He expressed it as, "You think you can change the way the world is, and I know that no one can." He sought meaning in personal creativity and other directly personal matters. She sought meaning more in social and political action. The temptation is to insist that one of them was right and the other was wrong, but that's not the way I see it. I think they were both right from their own point of view as it applied to them personally. What I mean is, they both did exactly what came naturally to them. Joan was deeply interested in political action, and that was perfect for her. Bob wasn't interested in it at all (after around mid-'64), he was interested in other things entirely, and that worked perfectly for him. It's good to see people do what fits their own nature, rather than doing what someone else with an outside agenda thinks they "should do". I think both Joan and Bob did exactly the right thing...for Joan and Bob...and what they did was diametrically opposed when it came to politics and social action. Just because I despair of politics in the USA doesn't mean you should. Nor does it mean I shouldn't. We weren't born from the same blueprint. There isn't just one right way to be in life, Don, and if there was...well, you'd have a world full of very predictable robots instead of a world full of unique and interesting people. Canada is still a pretty moderate place. I do not yet despair of politics in Canada...but I don't expect much of it either! ;-) It's not where I place my hopes and dreams, that's for sure. I KNOW in my very bones that no Canadian political party is ever going to solve the essential problems, answer the essential questions, or provide the essential solutions. Not a chance. But I do give thanks that they tend not to go to really ridiculous extremes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:01 PM Little Hawk, yes, the 2-party system does contribute. But at least until the election of Bill Clinton, I don't remember the partisan animosity being as great as it is now. The anger in the '60s and '70s was more generational and about the Viet Nam war than it was Republican v. Democratic Party. At other times anger is directed at the incumbent party because of hard economic times (e.g., the gas rationing of the 1970s). But I don't remember being as upset about my party losing a governorship or a seat in Congress or the Presidency until 2000 and 2004, when there were so many problems with our voting "system" and the true outcome of the election was questionable. Even after GWB was installed by the SCOTUS, I think most Americans were willing to accept him -- especially right after the 9-11 attacks. But the more we have had high-profile figures like Dick Cheney (and now his daughter) and the media shock jocks I mentioned before spewing wild, hostile accusations about the opponent party, the more the animosity has grown. For me, I still don't feel hatred towards Republicans or "conservatives" in general. But I have to admit that when I hear Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman or Liz Cheney making outrageous accusations about Obama and the Democrats, my gut reaction is one of real anger and disgust. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Paul Burke Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:14 PM describe us in ways that we can't recognize. Maybe sometimes your own lack of self- recognition is part of the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the dark side Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:19 PM Couple of good posts Genie. Back shortly |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM Don Wyziwig is of Irish descent but English |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM It has definitely gotten much worse since some time during the mid-Clinton years, Genie. You're quite right that "The anger in the '60s and '70s was more generational and about the Viet Nam war than it was Republican v. Democratic Party." I always did notice that there was this huge divide in American society over the bipartisan thing, though. We have something similar in Canada over the 2 largest parties (the Liberals and the Conservatives), but it's far more muted in expressing itself than what occurs in the USA. That's probably partly just because Canada is a more muted society in a general sense...Canadians tend to be moderate in expressing their political passions. I think it may also be because we have a lengthy tradition of a viable 3rd party here, so it isn't just a simple "us against them" proposition here. The lines are not so clearly drawn in Canada, nor are the differences of opinion so acute. Other notable differences: The so-called Religious Right barely even exists in Canada. Abortion is not a major issue here. Neither is gay marriage. We are not a superpower. We do not play a major role in the destinies of other nations. We don't have tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. Given the fact that our role in the world is fairly modest, the issues at stake in our political campaigns do not stir such strong emotions in the electorate. What most often drives strong emotions in people, after all? Fear does. Nobody in the world is afraid of Canada. ;-) Virtually everyone in the world either fears the USA...or regards the USA as a bulwark against someone else in the world whom they fear. Or both at the same time. The USA is in the postion that Rome once was. That means there's a "life or death" sort of quality to major American political issues, just as there was with Roman political issues, and that drives the rhetoric to more and more extreme levels. You see....not too many people back in 100 A.D. worried what the Illyrians were up to....but everyone worried about what Rome was up to...and the craziest place you could possiby be in, politically speaking, was the City of Rome itself where all that massive political power played itself out daily. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:26 PM LH, the UK has had a two party system since (without looking it up) about 1920. Regrettably you are doing your credibility less than justice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM Crow sister, Yes, a member of the Tea Party did spit on a black congressman... Members of the Tea Party did yell "nigger" at several black congressmen and yes, members of the Tea Party yelled "faggot" at a gay Congressman... Now the righties are ashamed and so they have invented a story where by lefties infiltrated the Tea Party and carried out these acts... That is pure mythology on their part... LH, As for Dylan??? I love his music but he was a AWOL in the 60s and early 70s on issues ranging from Civil Rights to the anti-war movement... Hey, it's one thing to write the songs but if yer not willing to take any additional steps then something wrong... I mean, Dylan was totally into himself and couldn't have cared less about helping to promote causes that his songs suggested had some feelings about... I mean, it wouldn't have hurt him one bit to show a little engagement with the causes of those where were buying his music... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Joe_F Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM So much as who? So much as Protestants & Catholics hate each other in Northern Ireland? So much as Greeks & Turks hate each other in Cyprus? So much as Sunnis & Shiites hate each other in Iraq? So much as Jews & Arabs, Hutus & Tutsis, oh, the hell with it. Despite much trying, no-one as yet has managed to convert the US to an ethnic pest zone. I won't go so far as to say it can't happen here, but I can think of several reasons to say it isn't likely. Stopping short of smugness, we may very reasonably count our blessings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: pdq Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:03 PM "Despite much trying, no-one as yet has managed to convert the US to an ethnic pest zone." ~ Joe F That maybe a profound statement, perhaps not. Can the author please translate into plain English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Jim Dixon Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM Joe_F: I don't think the original question was meant to compare Americans to Hutus & Tutsis. I think it was meant to compare American Democrats & Republicans to British Labor & Conservatives. Americans are good at noticing that there are many places that are worse than America. If there was a place where some things were done better, would we even notice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:26 PM Richard, I was not talking about the UK. I was talking about Canada. We've had a 3 or 4 party system in Canada for my entire lifetime. Of those 3 or 4 there have always been 2 dominant parties (Liberals and Conservatives (formerly PCs), but the smaller parties have also played a key role in forming coalitions and influencing government policy. We owe the creation of our Canadian health care system to iniatives pioneered and advanced by a 3rd party...the former CCF, now called the NDP. Bobert - Everyone does what they are best suited to. Van Gogh painted. Dylan wrote songs. Baez used her great talents to advance progressive social and political philosophy. Each person does what their spirit moves them to do, and that's just fine with me, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. I think Bob made a great contribution writing the songs he did, and that's good enough for me. He would have been totally miserable doing what you seem to have wanted him to, it wouldn't have suited him at all, he'd have felt out of place and uncomfortable, and it wouldn't have worked. Fortunately, like Joan, he had the guts to follow his own vision, not to be ruled by the voices of others in his ears who'd have been only too happy to use him in the way they thought "best"... You know how hard Bob tried to escape wearing that mantle of "leader of the movement" and "social prophet", Bobert? He did anything possible to escape it, because it would have destroyed him. He hated being stuck with that label. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:08 PM Bobert: "Given the fact that our role in the world is fairly modest, the issues at stake in our political campaigns do not stir such strong emotions in the electorate. What most often drives strong emotions in people, after all? Fear does. Nobody in the world is afraid of Canada. ;-) Virtually everyone in the world either fears the USA...or regards the USA as a bulwark against someone else in the world whom they fear. Or both at the same time. The USA is in the postion that Rome once was. That means there's a "life or death" sort of quality to major American political issues, just as there was with Roman political issues, and that drives the rhetoric to more and more extreme levels." Good point. I do think that a lot of the hate-filled rhetoric today stems from the defensiveness some people have about the possibility that (shudder!) we Americans may not "have the best health care system (or educational system, or whatever) in the world" any more (even if we once had). It is very scary to deal with loss like that, and sometimes the best defense seems to be a good offense. Jim Dixon: "Americans are good at noticing that there are many places that are worse than America. If there was a place where some things were done better, would we even notice?" Probably not. In some ways there clearly already are. That's a very hard pill for some people to swallow. Especially when you've tagged "the others" with alienating labels like "socialist," "communist," "elitist," etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road) Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:35 PM Bobert Has anybody come up with a tape or video of the spitting/name calling incident yet? I kind of remember several organizations were trying to get some documentation, but did not have any luck. Not that I care much, but it sort of ties in with stories in the past few days about groups planning to "infiltrate" Teapary meeting and acting outrageously in order to make them look bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:41 PM Pessimism is the bodyguard of socialism. Figure is out, as to why. Little Hawk: (yo-ho) "Solutions? Yeah, I have a solution that works for me. I don't live in the USA. Another good solution (if you do live there) would be to talk about music or gardening or something instead of politics....if you want to enjoy yourself, I mean." Amen..Bravo! and well said!!! All this bickering is really for nothing..and if you notice how those with little or no information, just accuse others of hatred, bigotry, racism, blah blah blah! Then offer NOTHING whatsoever!! Play music, write music, pray music. Make the place better...but first, for Christ sakes, quit bitching!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:49 PM Mark, while it's possible that some outrageous acts "on the part of" ANY group have been done by infiltrators (or just by opportunists who have no real connection with the groups), if we are to require videotape of an incident before we can accept that it happened, there are going to be a lot of convicted criminals being set free. : ) Where's the videotape of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols plotting the Oklahoma City bombing? (Just to mention one example.) An ordained minister who is a Congressman says he was spat upon by a protestor. Extremists on all sides of the aisle have done worse, and even some of our elected officials are calling for citizens to be "armed and dangerous" (Michelle Bachman). There are posters of Obama depicted in all sorts of racist, damning ways. Why is it hard to believe that some jerk went so far as to spit on a Congressman? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:51 PM Ah, GfromS, your words of wisdom are SO reassuring! ;D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Janie Date: 14 Apr 10 - 11:52 PM Well said, Stringsinger. Very well said, indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road) Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:10 AM Genie It's not hard to believe that it happened, but I seriously question the motivation of whoever may have done it. Todays political climate has given us groups like "Crash the Tea Party", and folks like the Democratic Party activist in New Hampshire, who was reported in NowHampshire.com as recruiting others to attend Teapary gatherings holding up "birther" signs and making disparaging racial remarks. I'm not taking sides here, as much as lamenting the overt dishonesty of political discourse these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:30 AM MarkS: Todays political climate has given us groups like "Crash the Tea Party", and folks like the Democratic Party activist in New Hampshire, who was reported in NowHampshire.com as recruiting others to attend Teapary gatherings holding up "birther" signs and making disparaging racial remarks. What a prick. Teabaggers are more than capable of making fools of themselves without help from a fool from the other side of the aisle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:50 AM Mark, I think two things are important to remember when we deal with media coverage of any event (e.g., a protest): 1. The media will focus on the most bizarre, outrageous people or incidents -- picking out a few from the hundreds or thousands who participated. (Ratings, controversy, don't ya know?) 2. It is very hard to know whether the kooks, vandals, and rabblerousers are actually part of the group that's organizing the gathering or whether they are "plants." I don't think we should judge any group by it's most extreme members. That said, when "spokespeople" like Michele Bachman, Glenn Beck, Liz Cheney and POTENTIAL PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE Sarah Palin come out with outrageous challenges and epithets, I think that really does shed a bad light on a movement. (The same could be said of some of the "leaders" of the student antiwar movement back in the '60s, btw.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Genie Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:52 AM Right, Alex. The "Tea Partiers" do need to be infiltrated. But not by people trying to outdo them in outrage and idiocy, but by other populists who share many of their legitimate concerns and maybe can help direct their ire towards the forces that are their real enemies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:05 AM ****~~~S-I-G-H~~~**** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:16 AM I remember a time, not too long ago, when people would complain that there really was no difference between Democrats and Republicans, that they were both saying the same thing. I don't think people would make that accusation now. The righties and lefties both stick to there ideologies, and there's no longer any room for us in the middle - and common sense and compromise and good manners went out the window long ago. I suppose other factors are involved, but I blame most of the polarization of the US on the absolutism of the media - talk radio, FoxNews, and the Internet. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:32 AM "important to remember when we deal with media coverage of any event (e.g., a protest): 1. The media will focus on the most bizarre, outrageous people or incidents " When the Qld Premier Joh - a rabid right wing anti-intellectual! - got his 'honorary doctorate' a rather large bunch of us old timers came out of the woodwork, and showed our displeasure at the Qld University and Joh. He had wanted to dress his 'Special Branch' police in brown shirts, btw, but those with a knowledge of history were able to convince him that would be a VERY dumb provocative thing to do! :-0 When The REAL Doctorate candidates came out in their turn, I led the cheer "for the REAL Doctorates - they EARNED theirs!" - I got a couple of smiles and a few 'thanks' from some of them as they walked right past me! :-) Now a handful of eager people (girls mostly) got carried away, and began thumping on the massively high glass windows of Mayne Hall (btw, Mr Mayne was a very rich early Brisbane settler, who got his financial start in life by a nasty murder and theft of a massive amount of money for the time - and did a deathbed confession - his children never bred and left all their money to charities, including the Qld University) which being extra specially made as cutting edge glass manufacture! about 30 feet tall, began to resonate, and one eventually cracked - they stopped then - as they had MADE their protest. THAT caused a furore, btw, as some of 'the world's top architects!!!!! (Qld Uni graduates!!!) had designed those 'special' windows as high wind cyclone proof.... :-) They were later replaced by many much smaller chunks of glass! But that's another story! :-0 When word came that HE (it was rumoured that God whispered personally in his ear, asking for advice!) was arriving, we all fell back about 100 feet away, and suddenly all 30 of the most vocal rabble rousers were left crowded in front of the doors, sheepishly trying to hide behind each other! We sent up the chant "Special Branch" - for they WERE the elite police section.... :-) On TV the clips showed Joh fighting his way thru a crowd thronging and pushing close to him - wasn't ANY of us - just 'his police minders' and TV reporters!!! :-) The newspapers ranted on about "THE BIG RIOT!!!" - I WAS AT A RIOT!!!!! :-) ?????!!!! I have been very cynical about many things in life since then.... and the louder they shout, the less I believe in their magic sky fairy given right to boss ME around.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:41 AM Not a word of that was made up by the way... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Rowan Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:24 AM Qld Premier Joh - a rabid right wing anti-intellectual! That's one of the milder descriptions of him; several people who were on the receiving end of his political thuggery found the only way they and their families could stay safe from his apparatus was the move to NSW. But there were also telling critiques noted for their subtlety. In May 1972 the main Brisbane newspaper, the Courier Mail, became the only capital city newspaper I know of to print a letter to the editor on its front page. To get the full benefit you need to know that Bjelke Petersen, while Premier, was also a peanut farmer with a pilot's licence. The letter took the editor to task over the punctuation contained in a story on Joh a couple of days earlier, in which Joh was described as "that well known flying peanut farmer comma Premier Joh Bjelke Petersen", when everyone knew the sentence should have read "that well known flying peanut comma farmer Premier Joh Bjelke Petersen." Another critique was presented when the ABC broadcast a particular edition of The Gillies Report, a satirical view of current political events compiled by Max Gillies, a notable comic and aired on Monday nights. The broadcast in question did a wonderful hatchet job on Joh and, the next day, the press corps all lined up and asked Joh what he'd thought of The Gillies Report. Poor Joh thought it was a formal report to the govt and he hadn't worked through it so he blustered that he'd look into it at his earliest opportunity. The press corps couldn't believe their luck and kept pestering him; he was known for his dismissive attitude towards the press and he described press conferences as "feeding the chooks." It took him a while to recover the necessary gravitas. But then, at the time, I was a southerner and didn't count as far as those from "the deep north" were concerned. Now, where was that copy of "It's a long way to Cunnamulla"? Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:15 AM First of all, "The Spitting Incident"... No the video doesn't show the actual spit... It does show Congressman Cleaver recoiling from something and then wiping his face... BTW, there are no known videos of the lynchings in the South either... Secondly, both sides are out of control here... Pure mythology!!! The right wants people to parrot this PR crap because then the moderates, most who are too bust making a living to pay alot of attention, won't punish the right for their bad behavior... Lastly, hate.... Yeah, the right tried very hard to pin the "Hate Label" on the anti-Bush people... Pure mythology, Part B.... As many of us here said over and over: We don't/didn't hate Bush... Wh did hate his policies... But again, this is more right wing PR... If it can get the hate label to stick to ptogressives then it fells all warm and fozzy about the level of hate they are exercising toward Obama and anyone who might be supportive of his policies... Summation: Beware of right weing PR mythology... It is out there and it can be very subtle but mythology is just that: mythology... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:07 PM GUEST from Sanity said, in part: Getting back to the Tea Party, for a moment...they are accused of being homophobes, racists, morons...etc etc......if that is true, why is the left, posing as them, to do mischief, to discredit them??. That's at least the second time in this thread that you've made (in varying terminology) the charge that "the left" is infiltrating or posing as Tea Party in order to discredit the Tea Party. Where's the referent for that assertion? I am certainly not aware of any facts that justify that claim. If you want Mudcatters to award your posts any credibility, GfromS, you should give us any factual basis you think there may be for that and other such outlandish charges. Unsupported quotes from Limbaugh, Beck, et al. won't rise to the dignity of "evidence". Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Joe_F Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM pdq: By an ethnic pest zone I meant a place like the ones I had just mentioned, where certain subgroups have given each other plenty of reason for mistrust for so long that membership in one or another of them has to be the most important fact in each member's life. By "much trying" I meant various attempts (often, these days, under the rubric of the pernicious pseudoconcept of "identity") to induce that state of mind in Americans. Jim Dixon: Yes, I should have paid more attention to where the question was coming from. Of course, there are many other places that are not ethnic pest zones. We Americans used to be in the habit of belittling their accomplishments by saying that they had an easier job because they were ethnically homogeneous. That is no longer true (to the extent that it ever was), but Britain, France, Holland, and Germany seem to have kept up their decencies pretty well. There are, indeed, sons of bitches everywhere (in the '40s, George Orwell collected some pretty vile remarks about refugees in Britain), and they are good at getting into the news. We'll see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM ""I do despair of politics in the USA, Don, and that's no lie. I'm not suggesting you should, however. You're an American, aren't you?"" You see LH, that goes straight to what I was saying about dipping into threads without reading what has gone before. I've been a member since Nov '03, and have mentioned my nationality some dozens of times, and you are unaware that I am English, living in England. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:58 PM Who are the "tea baggers"? A poll published today in the New York Times (NY Times and CBS News) shows that they are more well-educated than the general pulic, wealthier, white, married, older than 45, and vote Republican. They describe themselves as "very conservative" and Obama as "very liberal." A pleurality do not think Sarah Palin is qualified to be president. They think Social Security and Medicare are worth the cost to taxpayers. Nine in ten disapprove the job Obama is doing overaall and 92% believe Obama is moving the country toward socialism, an opinion shared by "more than half of the general public." They are angry about the health care overhaul, government spending, and feel that their opinions are not represented in Washington. In other words, they are a part of the tax-paying middle class, backbone of the economy, being squeezed by money wasters. NY Times, "Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated," Kate Zerike and Megan Thee-Brenan, April 14, 2010. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Donuel Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:51 PM The Republican Party has failed so miserably that the good people for fiscal respondsibility and the unwashed people, who are puposefully deluded into thinking that the right stands for religious goodness and the left stands for satanistic evil, wanted an alternative party. Right wing think tanks, Fox news and huge lobbying firms came to their rescue. After a 8 month boost and millions of dollars you could now say there is grass roots aspect to the tea party now. GOD GUNS AND GUTS is one way to solve problems but it sounds more like something the Taliban might chant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM Q: Who are the "tea baggers"? A poll published today in the New York Times (NY Times and CBS News) shows that they are more well-educated than the general pulic, wealthier, white, married, older than 45, and vote Republican. (etc) The poll says "tea party backers" not "tea baggers". The backers. The people writing the checks. The backers. Not the frontline soldiers. Not the teabaggers. The backers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Greg F. Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM Here's a Republican Tea-Bagger hero for ya: --------------------------------------- Paladino shrugs off racist e-mails Claims liberal smear behind release By CASEY SEILER, State editor, Times-Union Tuesday, April 13, 2010 ALBANY -- A western New York Web site posted a cache of e-mails sent or forwarded by Republican gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino containing racist or pornographic material, ranging from a video of African tribesmen dancing under the caption "Obama inauguration rehearsal" to a video that purports to show a woman having sex with a horse. The Web site, WNYmedia.net, reported that it obtained the e-mails sent by Paladino to "a veritable who's who of Buffalo-area politicians, media types, hangers-on, hacks, and appointees." Paladino spokesman Michael Caputo said in a prepared statement that the campaign "won't be wading through the details of what is just another liberal Democrat blog smear." The examples copied on the Web site included an altered photo showing President Barack Obama dressed in pimp garb, and a comic video of chimpanzees performing an Irish step dance that came under the subject line, "Proof the Irish discovered Africa." At least one recipient didn't appreciate Paladino's taste in online comedy: "You really degrade yourself when you forward this (stuff)," wrote a recipient, whose name was redacted out by WNYmedia.net, in response to the video showing the dancing tribesmen. "I apologize to you and everyone if that is offensive. To me, it's just humor," Paladino wrote back in an e-mail reproduced on the Web site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM "After a 8 month boost and millions of dollars you could now say there is grass roots aspect to the tea party now" Others (cynics) might think that the normal process of corrupting politics by bribing the new political party by showering it with money has begun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM Those unhappy with the current situation may send donations to: Republican National Committee, 310 First Street SE, Washington DC 20003 Support your state Republican Party by making a donation on its website. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM The Mount Vernon, Washington Tea Party is soliciting for donations and volunteers. Contact mtvliberty@aol.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM I'm sorry, but "After a 8 month boost and millions of dollars you could now say there is grass roots aspect to the tea party now" Not if the money has come from the upper class (up)"Root the Grass" mob... has just occurred to me.. although probably only Aussies will get the references and humour... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:49 PM I find it interesting is that with the billlions that Dick Armey (And his pharma and health isurance fat cats) and his buddy, Rupert Murdock, with his 24/7 propaganda machine that only a few thousand folks showed up in D.C. today for the "biggie" (tax day) rally... ANSWER got over a halh a million with hardy any expenditure??? Me think that if I were paying big bucks to Dick Armey's lobbiest firm that I'd be asking for a refund... BTW, still no hate here for anyone... Not Dick Armey... Not Rupert Murdock... Not Sawz... Not no one... These folks have some policy positions which I do hate but I loves the sinner and hates the sins... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Apr 10 - 01:15 AM Dave O, It's being reported on the news (radio). I'm surprised that whatever news that you listen to, or watch, apparently has made no mention of it. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Stringsinger Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:19 PM Joe, the collapse of the so-called "centrists" was an example of the rise of fascism in Thirties Germany. Also, Mudcatters, it has to be stated that the "tea party" doesn't reflect the views of the majority of Americans. It's a fringe group by comparison. It just gets a lot of media play for their ratings. By the way, with the advent of the British National Party, I think it's fair to ask why British hate each other so much? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 16 Apr 10 - 07:57 PM Yeah, strings... It ***is*** a fringe party (movement) that is getting more than it's share of press... Press = PR = $$$$... Take FOX outta the equation and it'd be "who are they???"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM Fox??? Hey remember the movie, 'Network'..the is a scene where Peter Finch's character is summoned, up to the head office by the president of the company.....if you remember the rap, it is priceless, about money not being the object, but power was.... Sounds like Rupert Murdoch vs. George Soros!!!...MSNBC, NPR, ABC, CBS Its the morons who DON'T get it!!!!!!!!!!!! Check it out ..and this!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Apr 10 - 05:22 AM I have been saying for many years that Murdoch is a threat to civilisation and democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 10 - 09:18 AM George Soros seems to be the only boogie-man that the Repubs can come up with... I didn't realize that he owns CBS, NBC and ABC... Must have missed that "Breaking News" story... I mean, let's get real here... When it comes to media ownership there is no one in Murdock's league... He is "da man"... He amkes George Soros look like the local paper boy ridin' his bike and throwin' papers in the direction of front porches... That's reality!!! FOX is a manacing propaganda machine... When broadcasting was first regulated in the 30's it was set up so that people like Murdock would not be able to do what he has done... Only from persistent chipping away by the right ar FCC regs has our country given it's "piblic airwaves" over to a major braodcasting company that has only one purpose and that is to be a 24/4 propaganda arm of the Republican Party... The operastiove word here is "public airwaves"... Meaning, that at least in theory, the people of the United States owns them... You know, kinda like national parks... Sorry, GfS... My cumputer is way too slow for another download... It take up to an hour for a 3 minute U-Tube and if anything happens to get in the way of the stalittle it just shuts the everything down... We're supposed to get real computer service some day back here in this mountain holler... But that someday might be decades... Ain't too many computers back here... Lotta moonshiners, tho... lol... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM In the UK it is arguably worse in that Murdoch also controls the once respected Times newspaper and the nonce respected (pun intended) Sun daily rag with tits on page 3, as well as Sky with its tractor pulling for those who find NASCAR too intellectually challenging. Both the UK and the USA are headed for the pit of corruption typified by Italy where Berlusconi's lock on the media gets him elected and then he abuses his political power to exempt himself from criminal law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Apr 10 - 12:20 PM Bobert, With all due respects, G.E. owns NBC, MSNBC...Don't you think their 'higher ups' are running the same thing? G.E. was a MAJOR contributor to Obama's candidacy, and they have landed quite a few 'sweetheart deals'. The amazing thing is, that people favor one over the other, thinking that there is something different going on at the top. You can take any news story, and report it through the filters of any 'news' network, with an agenda, and people will have two completely different concepts of what is going on. I see that on here, a lot. I think most people will try to do the 'right thing' given the FACTS they have, but FACTS, without spin is hard to come by these days! That in mind, the mood of the country is dividing, depending on where they get their 'news' and to what bent that news source is pandering to; already they are shooting barbs at each other, next waging a war of words, with each other, NOBODY LISTENING to each other, just talking over each other, forming cliques and groups with like, or opposing views,...hostility rises, it won't be long before some lunatic will pick up a weapon, and throw more than words! Instead of try to promote a 'programmed cause' we, as musicians, if we draw deep into ourselves, pull up the best, can wage peace on these troubled things. But first, we have to get past our petty differences, and our lame excuses, and reasoning...do our homework, and bring something different, decent and wholesome, that feeds the soul, to awaken that which is truly good within people. Again, as I've posted numerous times, people should be allowed to learn HOW to think...not WHAT to think! To that end, speak and sing to their hearts, and bring them peace...the rest will grow. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 10 - 12:50 PM If you compare MSNBC, ***a cable channel*** and not a channel that has use of the "public airwaves" to NBCm CBS or ABC you'll find that. yeah, MSNBC is probably the equvilant to FOX... My beef is that the FCC allows FOX to use something ("public airwaves") to broadcast Republican propaganda... The others (CBS, NBC and ABC) are all purdy much mainstream and if they have biases they do a fairly good job of hiding them... Actaually I'me purdy disappointed with them right now because if FOX tells a lie loud and often enough they seems to fold their journalistic tents and chime in with FOX... But to say they are liberal is a joke... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Sawzaw Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:06 PM Why do Americans hate one another so much? Because there are people like Bobert constantly shouting how people hate somebody like he does and how people are telling other people to kill somebody. Then he blames all the hared and racism he stirs up on others. From a single thread: "they were filled with contempt (hate) of Obama" "I saw some very hatefull signs" "promoting hatefilled demonstartions" "promoting hate is against the law" [pot and liquor laws excluded] "The KKK epitomized the kinda hate that we witnessed this past week." "They just hate the governemnt"' "they really just flat out hate the governemnt" "Yeah, they hate the governemnt " "But they sho nuff hate the governemnt" "I hate it that 1 in 5 children go hungry at night" "Don'tcha just *hate* it when ol' hillbilly knows what the heck he's talkin' about??? lol..." [I like it when he knows what he's talikng about] "I reckon that Sawz will come along now and say I hate America" "I hate it that if you do what Tom Jefferson expected us to do in questioning our governement then the right says you hate America" [example?] "I hate it that a Tea Party gun-nut" "There ain't enough hate in the world for this brand of right wing haters" "so consumed with hate that many would love nothin' more than to see the United Sates become a "failed state" because of their hatred of a black president" "Yer the governemnt hater here" "The fact that I hate the behavior I am seeing by an ignorant minority of racists" "Too many hatefull signs and too many hatefull screamers" "I think it is fair game to brand their organization a hate oganization" "the longer that the right is defined as violent people who hate the government" "I hated his policies" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Apr 10 - 07:19 PM ""Because there are people like Bobert constantly shouting how people hate somebody like he does and how people are telling other people to kill somebody."" Concentrating on the snippets in which Bobert talks about how he feels, and reacts, you are objecting to the following:- "I hate it that 1 in 5 children go hungry at night" So does any real human being. "I reckon that Sawz will come along now and say I hate America" A reasonable supposition, based on past experience. "I hate it that if you do what Tom Jefferson expected us to do in questioning our governement then the right says you hate America" Yep!...Heard that on several occasions. Bush, for one, used it frequently, as did Cheney. "so consumed with hate that many would love nothin' more than to see the United Sates become a "failed state" because of their hatred of a black president" Following on the Republicans' blocking tactics against any attempt by Obama to reform healthcare, this is obvious to the whole civilised Western World. "The fact that I hate the behavior I am seeing by an ignorant minority of racists" He hates the behaviour. So do I. And so should you. "Too many hatefull signs and too many hatefull screamers" I watch TV, and I've seen 'em, so what is your objection? "I think it is fair game to brand their organization a hate oganization" Since they so regularly express their hatred, you can't honestly deny that. "I hated his policies" Once again the policies, not the man. Not once in all that did Bobert express a hatred for any individual of any political stripe. He hates behaviours, policies, racism, incitement of hatred, and the fact that, in his country, twenty percent of children go to bed hungry. The way I see it, that makes this old hillbilly a better human being than most, and more truthful than many. As for those who defend the lunatic right, well, like Bobert I don't hate them. I find them contemptible (contempt is not synonymous with hate Sawz), and irrelevant. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 10 - 07:37 PM Thank you, Don... And yeah, I have never said anywhere in my some 18,000 posts here that I hate anyone... It's not part of my DNA... My mom might have been a good little commie but she brought me up to love everyone because we are all God's creations... Then, if her lessons didn't take, I became a true follower of Dr. King... Hey, Dr. King wasn't ashamed to tell it like it was but he wasn't one to hold hatred for other people in his heart... But I guess that Sawz just can't understand that concept... It's kinda like a square peg and a round hole for him as he thinks he he only spends more time picking out things I have said (all of which I will defend) that really have nothing to do with the various threads where he posts them that folks will see me as some kinda untrustworthy person whoes opinions don't count??? The problem here is two-fold... First, Sawz is wrong in thinking that... People know me from way back and they know what I stand for because at this stage in life I am what I am... I don't play games... But secondly, Sawz thinks there are people out here in Mudburg who actually take him serious??? They don't... He is a pest... He is like the guy in high school who was always telling the teacher when other kids did this or that... No, not hurtin' anyone but like smokin' in the boys room... That's who Sawz is here and folks know it... But thanks again, Don... Gets lonely being about the only person who pays any attention to Sawz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Apr 10 - 07:46 PM ... pay attention to WHO Bobert? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Apr 10 - 12:41 AM You'll hate this........(maybe)..... If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal. If I have the gift of foretelling the future and hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but the very secrets of God, and if I also have that absolute faith which can move mountains, but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. If I dispose of all that I possess, yes, even if I give my own body to be burned, but have no love, I achieve precisely nothing. This love of which I speak is slow to lose patience - it looks for a way of being constructive. It is not possessive: it is neither anxious to impress nor does it cherish inflated ideas of its own importance. Love has good manners and does not pursue selfish advantage. It is not touchy. It does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is glad with all good men when truth prevails. Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen. All gifts except love will be superseded one day For if there are prophecies they will be fulfilled and done with, if there are "tongues" the need for them will disappear, if there is knowledge it will be swallowed up in truth. For our knowledge is always incomplete and our prophecy is always incomplete, and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete. When I was a little child I talked and felt and thought like a little child. Now that I am a man my childish speech and feeling and thought have no further significance for me. At present we are men looking at puzzling reflections in a mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face! At present all I know is a little fraction of the truth, but the time will come when I shall know it as fully as God now knows me! In this life we have three great lasting qualities - faith, hope and love. But the greatest of them is love. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:00 AM "Not once in all that did Bobert express a hatred for any individual of any political stripe. He hates behaviours, policies, racism, incitement of hatred, and the fact that, in his country, twenty percent of children go to bed hungry." Bobert: Hope you're right, Kendall. I hate Repubs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: DougR Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:56 AM Ah, Kevin, methinks you do not understand your American cousins. We argue a lot over issues, but we don't hate one another. At least that's my experience. There is only one person on Mudcat that has posted messages about me that I thought were over the top, but I never question his right to post them. I've answered in kind from time to time when I never had something more productive to do, but as a general rule, I think Americans are not much different than their British cousins who just happen to have a different political philosophy. Hatrid is a pretty unfriendly way of expessing ones self. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 10 - 05:01 AM Ah well, another post made by me in a consistent guest identity and using my real name deleted. As I said, Bobert, you need to be very careful, you are making far to many serious posts lately. Whatever happened to the old-hippy-shit-head persona? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 18 Apr 10 - 08:21 AM Well, Richard, it's kinda hard to be the ol' hippy shit head when one person here (in particular) is compulsively obsesssed with me but yer right... I should do what several people have suggested in their kind PMs to me about this individual and do what they do: ignore this person completely... So, let's see??? Why do American's hate one another so much??? Danged if I know but if they would legalize pot that would go a long way toward fixin' it... That better?? B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: DougR Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:31 PM Bobert: Wouldn't you agree that the primary reason there were no videos of lynchings is because most of them took place before television? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:37 PM We argue a lot over issues, but we don't hate one another. I'm sure that's what happens most of the time. It's just that there seems a tone to an awful lot of stuff that's been showing up in the media, including internet media like YouTube that goes way beyond that, and it's a bit frightening. There are dangerous nuts out there who feed on that kind of thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: akenaton Date: 18 Apr 10 - 07:02 PM Who's stalkin' ya Bobert? I never noticed anythang. Give us a name and we'll sort the fucker out! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 10 - 08:07 PM Bobert - yes. Doug - no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 18 Apr 10 - 10:29 PM Well, Dougie... Yer right on top o' this technology stuff but I allready knew why there ain't no videos of the lynchin's... But that wasn't as much the point as folks on the right now sayin' that Congressman Cleaver couldn't possibly have been spit on because the actual spit wasn't caught on video??? Lemme see if I have this right.... If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to witness it does it still make a sound as it crashes to the forest floor??? Well, me thinks it does... But yer buddies on the right must think it doesn't 'er the spit would show up somewhere on someone's video??? I mean, think about it Dougie... This is some very messed up logic, ain't it??? I mean, the guy is seen recoiling from something that was hurled in his direction and is seen wiping something from his face but, ahhhhhhhh, if you believe the righties???... Ahhhhhhh, maybe fairy dust??? No, tree polin... I mean, let's get real here, Dougie... Yer a reasonable man for a guy pushin' the century mark (lol)... What's yer take??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Apr 10 - 01:28 AM I keep asking Bobert to prove his "facts" and he keeps avoiding the issue by claiming I am stalking him. He is welcome to his own opinions but I believe he should back up his "facts" or quit claiming they are facts and anybody that does not believe they are facts is wrong. He can ask me anything he wants, any time he wants as much as he wants. He can say anything he wants about me. I have noticed a change in the tone Bobert's posts over the years and it is not good. I believe something is eating at him and causing stress that he blows out here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:04 AM It's important that when people who are ostensibly "on our side" start behaving in ways that are hateful and damaging, we are willing to speak out against them, rather than appear to collude with them. I think of the way that in the election campaign John McCain had the guts to disagree in public with that lady who started shouting about Obama being an Arab (implying terrorist), and tell her "No Ma'am, he is a decent family man citizen that I happen to have disagreements with about fundamental issues". That kind of response needs to be more evident than it appears to be. When honorable people fail to step up to the line, they stoke up an atmosphere of hate, and this can be terribly dangerous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:24 AM I agree. Just because someone does not agree with you, it does not mean they have to be destroyed if they cannot me made to agree with you. It is intolerance that has people at each others throat. Take for instance, religion. I am not a religious person but I am not an anti religious person either. What ever people want to believe in is fine with me as long as they are not intolerant with me. It is like being a neutral country with no dog in the fight. Standing up for the flag or bowing your head is a small price to pay for peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:22 PM I think Garry Trudeau has it figured out. See the Doonesbury comic strip from Sunday, April 25, 2010. (Page down after you get to that page.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:37 PM Interesting - I googled "Gopac Memo" after seeing that - Here's a longer extract from it: "...These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party. ... * abuse of power * anti- (issue): flag, family, child, jobs * betray * bizarre * bosses * bureaucracy * cheat * coercion * "compassion" is not enough * collapse(ing) * consequences * corrupt * corruption * criminal rights * crisis * cynicism * decay * deeper * destroy * destructive * devour * disgrace * endanger * excuses * failure (fail) * greed * hypocrisy * ideological * impose * incompetent * insecure * insensitive * intolerant * liberal * lie * limit(s) * machine * mandate(s) * obsolete * pathetic * patronage * permissive attitude * pessimistic * punish (poor ...) * radical * red tape * self-serving * selfish * sensationalists * shallow * shame * sick * spend(ing) * stagnation * status quo * steal * taxes * they/them * threaten * traitors * unionized * urgent (cy) * waste * welfare" The odd thing is that it appears to be universally accepted in the current UK election that "going negative" on opponents is liable to be a sure vote-loser. Evidently it doesn't work that way in the States... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Ed T Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:41 PM Hate is usually accompanied by intolerance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:46 PM Yeah, unfortunately, it is.... And we certainly see where the most intolerant are... Try the Christain Right here in the US and their minions in Congress... Looking more like the Taliban every day... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:21 PM "Why do Americans hate one another so much..." Some of them are Jewish bankers who took invester money and bought toxic securities with it--nowing they were toxic--and took their own money and bought credit-default-swaps betting on the economy to crash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:17 PM Ooooh nice anti-semitism! We see the real Rig! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:02 AM Lloyd Blankfein is selling credit-default-swaps, betting on the economy of Greece to fail. If it fails, the poorest people in Greece will lose everything they've worked all their lives for. Blankfein will walk away with another 100 million dollar bonus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Donuel Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM why? competition. learned hatred. an inbred ideology to steal and plunder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Greg F. Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:20 AM So every ignorant moron is entitled to be accorded respect for his/her stupidity and lies, then? I think not. While everyone may be entitled to their INFORMED opinion, they'te not entitled to be purveyors of BS, ignorance, and delusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Bobert Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM Not all crooked bankers are Jewish. 'or white, or' right handed, or men, or, or... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:28 PM Not all bankers are crooks for that matter. And not all crooks are bankers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Amergin Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:47 PM We don't hate one another we hate those damn foreigners who steal the best jobs....like cooking or cleaning or picking the fruit.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:53 PM Saves time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Greg F. Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:54 PM Or pool boy- now THERE'S a job them furriners are taking every day from poor hard wurkin' Amerkuns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:30 PM Actually Americans don't hate foreigners, but they don't like phony programs like H1-B visas, and/or people who hire illegals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:43 PM We love people who hire illegals. If we didn't, we'd do something about it. But they make big campaign contributions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM Arizona just did something about it. Texas, Arkansas and Utah are about to follow. Happy days are here again: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:12 AM Just got this E-mail, loved it: General Cosgrove was interviewed on the radio recently. Read his reply to the lady who interviewed him concerning guns and children. Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you have to love this! This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. In a portion of an ABC radio interview between a female broadcaster and General Cosgrove who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military Headquarters. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Cosgrove, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base? GENERAL COSGROVE:! We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery and shooting. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it? GENERAL COSGROVE: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children? GENERAL COSGROVE: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers. GENERAL COSGROVE: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you? The radiocast went silent for 46 seconds and when it returned, this interview was over. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: artbrooks Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:30 AM Yep we sure do hate those H1-B visas...even 'though they are the only way that the VA can get physicians in medically underserved areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:28 PM GfS, are you aware that that radio interview is a hoaz? It never happened. Or does that matter to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:59 PM "...we sure do hate those H1-B visas...even 'though they are the only way that the VA can get physicians in medically underserved areas." Nope, it's not the only way. We could be educating young Americans to do those jobs, and if were weren't supporting a bunch of illegal aliens, it'd be easier to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:31 PM Just realized that I had better post a link to Snopes: 'Tain't True |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:35 AM It is a funny line, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:07 AM It's a great story, just the same!...and in a certain logic, it is absolutely true. Not much with you, and humor is there???....That must be a pleasant ride! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:17 AM In a certain logic, the Angels of Mons are true. But they didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:46 AM Neither is a world governed by Love....but what the hell........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: VirginiaTam Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:13 AM Hate is usually accompanied by intolerance. Yes and both are preceded by ignorance and fear of the unfamiliar. IMO - bigots are under-developed mentally and spiritually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: Stringsinger Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM Thanks Janie. I think Joe got it right. The main-stream news media loves confrontation so they promote it for their ratings. I don't think Americans hate each other that much. They tend to be emotional over ideologies but when it comes to meeting the other guy, sometimes, and I support this, humanity trumps ideology. I think we can learn to agree to disagree without violence. I don't think we have to acquiesce to principles or ideologies with which we disagree. (Get along, not go along). Perhaps maybe McGrath watches too much American TV. :) I get mad sometimes at what I perceive to be injustice but i have to remember to respond and not react. I'm working on this. It ain't easy. One of the reasons I like Mudcat is that there can be a civil discourse without a lot of name-calling and pontificating. I don't mind passion, though if someone feels strongly about something. I haven't found much bullying on Mudcat and that's proof that us Americans don't hate each other all that much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: mousethief Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:41 PM Stringsinger: One of the reasons I like Mudcat is that there can be a civil discourse without a lot of name-calling and pontificating. CAN be. Frequently things deteriorate, alas, especially south of the equator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM Stringsinger: One of the reasons I like Mudcat is that there can be a civil discourse without a lot of name-calling and pontificating. I post a lot of what I post, to stimulate THOUGHT, and hope that it rolls around in the 'Catter's heads, not only to turn them onto 'other points of view, but to give you topics, and clarity to write about, sing about, and not be parroting political partisanship, in your thinking, and lyric writing. Some of the greatest pieces of music, were written in times of great distress.......and I hope that there is SOME beauty coming out of these days were are living. I, myself would love to post to you, a couple of pieces that I have composed, which have NO lyrics, and is presently in negotiations for a film soundtrack, with a VERY major film company, and because of that, I'm not at liberty to post it on youtube, or something like that. Believe me, I'd LOVE to share it with you...and as long as we're here, THANK YOU all, for the bouncing of thoughts and passion, you've shared with me!! Most Sincerely and With Much Gratitude, Guest from Sanity |
