BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:12 AM

How much longer can the US justify supporting the Israeli terror against peaceful civilians? Story here.

---

No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 AM

For a long, long time, Michaelr. Israel is the best friend we have in the mid-east. Probably the only one, actually.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:08 AM

Naturally, Doug. Your government's imperial policies there directly or indirectly attack, exploit, and oppress everyone in that entire region except Israel. You are partners in crime there, so why wouldn't they be your only friend in the area under such conditions? It's rather like Al Capone saying that one of his top hit men is his "good friend".   Common interests is what that is, not friendship.

Mussolini was Hitler's "good friend" too, you know...and then there was Beria and Stalin...similar arrangements.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: polaitaly
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:27 AM

On the italian press the dead reported are at least 16.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:58 AM

Israel will make peace when they have completely taken over the west bank and forced all the palestinians into Jordan or overseas, then starved out Gaza so they all flee or die as well. They have their own chapter in "Famous violations of the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements." It's a very sad and angering thing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:33 AM

The Israeli Government and Military are ruthless criminals.

Last night they murdered 20 civilians in international waters.

They did this to prevent food, medicine and building materials for schools and hospitals from gettng through to a city dying of poverty.

Let Obama, Cameron and Clegg be judged by their reactions.

And if they are not united in utterly condemning Israels actions last night then damn them to hell.

I spit in the eye of anyone who dares to defend such a horrendous crime against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:37 AM

Mark Regev, the Israeli spokesman says:

"They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear"

Presumably this was after hundreds of armed commandos descended from helicopters and climbed on board from rubber dinghies and stormed the ships.

What a fucking liar!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:40 AM

If anyone else did this it'd be recognized for what it is - piracy on the high seas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:58 AM

TROLL ALERT!

The post by GUESTheric must be an imposter.

It states "he never got enough of them" referring apparently to Hitler and the Jews.

I have never read a post by Heric advocating such views.

Anti semitic bullshit is not welcome on the mudcat.

Anti semites are not welcome on my political platform.


I will be requesting that Guest posts are excluded from this thread.

---

The post does appear to be from an impostor, so I deleted it. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:39 AM

I agree with LOX and this should not be an anti Jewish thread. However this attack on the civilian aid convoy cannot, must not go without some form of very strong protest from everyone. How can one make one's voice heard effectively?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:43 AM

Be interesting to hear what the resident Canadians have to say?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:50 AM

By which I mean, how this incident is reported there and so-on - in view of Canada's public position regards Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:00 AM

What is Canada's public position regarding Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:45 AM

Well, I'm not condoning the attack - if it happened as reported by one side and not the other. On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded - and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time. The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port. The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:27 AM

Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it? If they'd blown the ships out of the water, or bombed a mosque, that would be an atrocity. This looks like the heavy-handed sort of escalation that happens in a war, a tragedy but not an atrocity. Still, we need to hear more acounts yet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:46 AM

It's significant that the Turks got involved in this convoy to help the people of Gaza. In fact the mother ship was the Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmaris) flying a Turkish flag. Turkey has always had a secular constitution but is now run by an Islamic government who sympathize with the Palestinians in Gaza. So far the Turkish army has successfully protected Turkey's secularism (using the occasional military coup) but the present Islamic government is forever pushing the boundaries. Turkey also has the largest land army in Nato and plenty of modern armaments. The Turks are today burning Israeli flags in the streets. I studied in Turkey many years ago and can attest that they are not the sort of people you want to annoy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bankley
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:03 AM

Canada has a free trade deal with Israel... the anti-defamation league(B'nai Brith) pressured the Feds. to deny entry to George Galloway last year... but another George (W. Bush) was allowed in twice. (My friend is facing a sentencing on June 07 for trying to arrest the former President in Calgary for war crimes.)

I personally boycott anything coming out of the Blue Star State, whether it's from the occupied territories or otherwise...and remain outspoken through my art... 'some are born to the music, some are born to the gun'
My sympathies are with the victims of this latest tragedy and their families... remember Rachel Corrie

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:09 AM

"Canada as Israel's strongest supporter"

As a side-matter the Israeli president is in fact over there right now having tea & biccies with the Canadian president. Then he's popping over for a natter with Obama tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:11 AM

Oops, now he's not..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:46 AM

"Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it?"

What is the cut off limit that distingishes a mass murder from an atrocity?

25 dead? 30? 100?

It was a flotilla of Aid agencies bringing humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It was in international waters.

It was no threat to Israeli National security.

There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions.



"if it happened as reported by one side and not the other"

The information about the numbers of dead is corroborated by Israeli news sources.

There has been no information from those in the flotilla since the Israeli Navy blacked out all communications.

Why did they do this?

We await the testimony of those on board.

I will be paying careful attention to the testimony of the Irish members of parliament who were on board.



"The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians."



This is your opinion. It is uncorroborated.

Regardless of which it is a poor excuse for the murder of 20 Aid agency workers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:55 AM

"Sometimes we have to look into our own back yards before we start pointing fingers at our neighbours down the street. "


Yes I agree.

The British and American Government, our governments, are sitting in our back yard giiving tacit support to a campaign of repression and violence in Gaza, a place described by Gerald Kaufman (a friend of Golda Meyer and Tsipi Livni) as being comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto.


"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."


What about the medical and dental surgeries on board the ships designed to give Gazan's access to a doctor or dentist?

How exactly were they meant to deliver these things without the ships going too?

And how about the Aid workers?


The majority of Aid to Gaza has been smuggled in. The UN and all the main Aid agencies all contradict the Israeli claim that they are allowing enough aid in.

In fact they all support a view that Israel is starving Gazans of the things they need to survive.



"and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time"


Well you are the only person to bring these issues into the discussion, so if you could try and stick to the point that would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:14 AM

Proclaiming that you're friends with the neighborhood bully and not working to stop the bad behavior is nothing to brag about. Frankly, this "friend" needs a good Three Stooges-style dope slap.

Israel as a nation has taken on some of the characteristics of the countries that abused Jews in WWII. That is clear. Their treatment of the Palestinians, and such prolonged time they spend in camps - generations! It is appalling. This American says Israel has none of my support as long as they continue to stir up their neighbors in the Middle East. If they settled on the land allotted and were good neighbors, I think things now would be a lot different now.

New York Times stories are a lot more durable than anything via Yahoo news (the first link).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:16 AM

"There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions."

I guess the Israeli president disagrees with you as he's given the attack his "full backing".

In regard how this event may play out world-wide, it's interesting to watch the various immediate responses from different nations. The US response in particular is telling (particularly in light of the scheduled meeting tomorrow I thought) as it was the most mildly worded I've read thus far, expressing "regret" for a "tragedy" rather than condemnation of an attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:18 AM

Gerald Kaufman

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:22 AM

EDIT: "it's interesting to watch the various immediate OFFICIAL responses from different nations."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:15 PM

More dead people. Soon more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more. . . and more (repeat ad infinitum).

I guess humans have an unquenchable desire for blood and gore, as well as an unnerving ability to inflict upon and ignore the suffering of other living beings. Shame really, so much potential as a race too.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:27 PM

No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:29 PM

Israel will never allow a free Palestinian state.
As long as Israel keeps their boot on the Middle East, there will never be peace in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:32 PM

"...but, Daddy...HE started it!"

There's plenty of blame, provocation and guilt to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Actually, WHO started it isn't generally irrelevant in wars. I mean if the second world war went on long enough, detractors could have used precisely the same bland dismissive platitude regards the responsibility of the Germans for 'starting it'.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:03 PM

The lesson: end Israel now. I mean the Jewish state. There's no room in the world for single-interest states, whether Jewish, Aryan, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan.

It was a mistake- it started as an honest mistake born of 19th century romantic nationalism, was made more dishonest by willing to be co-opted by British oil interests in the 30s (because the Mesopotamia pipeline went that way), further by using the cold war as a lever to secure US patronage, and ended up blackmailing the USA who can't even ask politely that they should obey international law.

But the result is that there will probably be another Holocaust- in 5 years, 50 years, 500 years- and next time nobody will be particularly surprised.

As you reap.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Barden of England
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:12 PM

Am I missing a point here? People keep mentioning 'war' but has there been a declaration of war? And if so on whom?
This is an illegal act in international waters and all countries should condemn it as such, otherwise the occupation of vessels off the coast of Somalia may well be seen to be legal. What the Isralei's have done is no better than what Somali pirates have done.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:16 PM

Bloody Monday

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Yes John, I was responding to the dismissive comment by Bill D. But my example wasn't strictly appropriate to this situation..

Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:11 PM

A reconciliation process on the South African model- we are talking about a similar situation to the ending of the Boer state- in which both Israel and Palestine are placed under international jurisdiction, all religious privileges in both states de- recognised, illegal settlers given the choice of returning to Israel or becoming full Palestinian citizens without special privileges, a water commission appointed to correct the imbalance in those rights, an arms commission to regulate all clandestine WMDs, an open door to Europe and the USA for all those who can not live with a non- apartheid state.

Just for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:11 PM

How are we going to get any solution when people think stupidly?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:18 PM

If it isn't a declared war, John, it is a defacto war. Same difference. People are dying, injustices are being heaped upon civilians and nations in the area.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:22 PM

Specifically who did what to whom and when is still uncertain as I write this.

Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions.

There is a significant pall around this whole affair to indicate that it has been stage managed precisely to lend support to such outlandish statements as the title of this thread or the message from Paul Burke, above.

There is a significant irony here. I think the tactic of casting support for the innocent Palestinian civilians against the bloodthirsty Israeli state is getting perceived as just that, and is getting a little old. Let's see how long the manufactured state of world outrage lasts.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians live miserably, Israel's marginalization continues, and a buildup to something more sinister, more outrageous, and considerably more bloodthirsty continues.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:49 PM

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

Its called civil disobedience.

It worked for Ghandi.

It worked for Martin Luther King.

It worked for them because it made very clear who had the moral high ground.


So let me get this straight ... the crack force of elite commandos, armed to the teeth, who abseiled uninvited onto a ship in international waters with the express intentiopn of Hijacking it, were only acting in self defence when they shot at least 40 people, killing 19 of them?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:50 PM

Video showing Israeli soldiers being greeted as they arrive on board the Turkish ship, Mavi Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:00 PM

Israel spokesman reaction to raid on Gaza convoy

http://vodpod.com/watch/3739834-israel-spokesman-reaction-to-raid-on-gaza-convoy

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:01 PM

Seen it bobad - I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship.

This despite a white flag being flown.

Regardless of which, this was a civilian ship in international waters being boarded by a force whose sole purpose was to hijack it.

The idea that the civilians on board the ship were the agressors only makes sense if you are high on crack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:06 PM

"I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship."

Oh yes, and that there were wounded passengers.



The Purpose, intent and cargo of the ship were transparent for all to investigate. Thet were completely open and that is why there were so many oservers from the media and from internatonal parliaments on board.

The only secrecy involved was when The Israeli Navy imposed a blackout.

The only unknowns exist After the hijacking.


The Israeli spokesman is Lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:25 PM

The question "who started it?" is, contrary to some views expressed here, very important indeed.

Could it perhaps have been the European Zionists that invaded Palestine (in a flotilla of boats, ironically) in the late '40s to embark on the first modern terror campaign; assassinations, bombings of the civilian population in hotels and restaurants and market-places?

Yes, it was. So now we know who started it. And we certainly know who is perpetuating it.

North Americans, jeesh. Jews invade Palestine and ghetto-ise the natives. And then in your view, it is the uppity, unreasonable natives that are the cause of all the troubles. Where do you get that idea from? The push west? Mexico? Yes, it all starts to make sense. But of course you're not colonialists at all, that accusation is still reserved for us isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:27 PM

The Military was used - thus it is a War Crime. A State of War already exists due to the blockade, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:34 PM

"Well, I'm not condoning the attack..... On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded"
Israel is not at watr - it has invaded someone elses territory in order to settle on it.
Sorry - you are condoning the attack.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Someone has deleted a response to one of my potsts; idiotic though it was, it wasn't objectionable in any way. Moderators: this topic is important, inasfar as anything in the forum is. Please allow all reasonably expressed opinions to appear.

---

Please read the first message in this thread. No guest posts here. --Mod

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:52 PM

I saw/heard someone on BBC tonight saying that the commandos did not have machine guns but PAINT guns!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:15 PM

In any event, it looks like they sure pissed off Turkey.

   "Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states."

            I agree with Paul and Crow Sister as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:12 PM

"... the dismissive comment by Bill D."

It was not 'dismissive'. It was a short version of 15 paragraphs noting how you can blame EITHER side, depending on your subjective point of view and what your basic premises are and which 'events' you use as your starting point!

"but, Daddy, he started it!" might be true, IF my little brother ate one of MY candies from my table, and not true IF I had taken more than my share from the bag when he wasn't looking. And we could all blame Daddy for not supervising the division.

So...do we blame the UN for agreeing to give Israel that land? Or the Israelis for interpreting the gift too broadly? Or the Muslims in the Middle-East for being unwilling to share?....or the Germans for creating sympathy for the Jews? Or ...or... just the basic old human 'my tribe is more important than your tribe' attitude?

I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles.

"We have met the enemy, and it is US!"
                            Pogo Possum

...oh, sorry to have interrupted those of you who know the answers...please carry on...