BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)

Subject: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

Some posters in the Israeli atrocity thread and some media commentators
have claimed that the reactions to Israel's actions re. the "humanitarian" flotilla
are disproportonate to the reactions elicited by the atrocities perpetrated by others.

To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise.

To start things off, here is a video of Hamas, the democratically elected government
of Gaza, uninvited, crashing a wedding party and showing their disapproval of the
celebrations taking place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE&feature=fvw

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

You won't get many takers, I'm afraid. Just as when I asked Mudcatters to give examples of sources of evil other than organized religion and world capitalism.

A deafening silence ensued.

Mudcatters having tunnel vision?   Perish the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Well there was the public hanging of the seven year old "spy" in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the other day.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

The Democratic Republic of Congo has been an atrocity since it was acquired by King Leopold of Belgium as his personal fiefdom.

The Russians have managed to turn a secular independence movement in Chechenya into an Islamist terrorist campaign.

Japan is building up trouble for the future by buying Cambodia over the heads of the people who happen to live there.

(Hamas were a democratically elected government by the way)

Tibet/ China. Nothing more needed.

Or several other parts of the Chinese empire they wish.

The US doesn't own Diego Garcia. It is held illegally in defiance of a ruling of the British High Court. However, we colonials haven't yet resorted to direct action to free it.

Most of the ex-Soviet -stans are human rights nightmares. When they aren't perpetuated by the Putin regime, they are US supported.

But Israel is the biggest problem because:

- it proclaims itself as a religious state
- it's an apartheid regime
- it stops any progress over peace in the Middle East
- and consequently exposes all of us to the actions of people who oppose Israel *
- it has concealed WMD
- it occupies land seized from neighbouring countries
- it is in open defiance of more than two UN resolutions
- it destroys the economies of the land it occupies

If the world gave the same attention to Chinese actions in Tibet that it gave to Iraq's far more benign actions in Kuwait, I for one would be pleased. But all US leaders have been in thrall to China, mostly because they could sink your economy overnight if they wanted, so they don't object to anything- not even North Korea (China's bit of fun).

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM

OK a start. (Ignore the internal stuff at the start). There are many detailed stories here....too many to elaborate on :
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:29 PM

One difference is that there are unlikely to too be many people defending the atrocities carried out by other regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:31 PM

Just to note....my post listed interventions in sovern nations....many may be justified and some likely less so (as with a few other countries, for example Russia, Japan and China).

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:35 PM

Another perspective on some of the above (right or wrong):
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:43 PM

There's a whole bunch of them in here..

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/6/obama_has_kept_the_machine_set

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:44 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-19/memo-to-america-stop-murdering-my-people/full/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:46 PM

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/iraq-the-womens-story/

I'll have a lot more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:50 PM

Israel "stops any progress...."

There are other actors wearing black hats.

Tunnel vision.

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM

A thread has been running at the same time to this one called "Saddest News Article" to which I have posted my views in an extremely uncompromising way, on the subject of an event which I view as an atrocity.

There was noone taking up an opposing stance for more than a short while, so the thread is somewhere near the bottom of the pile.

It was of interest to me because it was about an atrocity committed in my name - by the allies - by the good guys - by us - and paid for using 'our' money.

It is important to me to make it clear that when such atrocities are commited, it is not with my consent or support and that I do not view them as advancing the democratic cayse as they purport to do.


I expect better from 'my team'.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

"Well there was the public hanging of the seven year old "spy" in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the other day."

This was mentioned in the Flotilla thread.


I think it a horrendous crime.


Does anyone disagree? ....



... no? .....




noone defending it? ....




... so we all agree ....

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

I disagree that Israel is the biggest problem. The United States is the biggest problem. Israel is second.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

Bobad, the actions of the militants in the video you have provided are reprehensible.

They clearly atteck a civilian wedding and engage the guests in a horrendous unjustifiable way.

I would love to know more about them so I can be better informed about the actual incidents.

For example, when did this happen, where, how many people died and who claimed responsibility?

Are you able to relate these videos to corresponding reports in the media or elsewhere?

Does anyone disagree that those images are shocking?

Does anyone want to try and justify that violence?

Well till they do bobad, why don't you keep the thread alive by providing more info.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

`One difference is that there are unlikely to too be many people defending the atrocities carried out by other regimes.`



Another difference is that some atrosities seem to weigh more on people`s minds than others. Strange, that.

Good thread. bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM

999

To have a debate, you need someone to debate with.



PS, I thought this thread was about an atrocity that Bobad was appalled and saddened by ...

... don't tell me that the atrocity he posted is only a vehicle through which he is makng another point ...

... is that why he has asked for multiple posts of various atrocities to be posted?


... surely not ... as that would trivialize the atrocities in question and turn them into political fodder ...



Come on Bobad - if you're so appalled by this atrocity, stick to the point and tell us more about it and what we can do about it ...


My Government already condemns them so no need to write to them or inform them ...

... hmm ... my tax dollars don't go to them ...

... hmmm ...

.. there is already a blockade on Gaza ....

so where next?

Justify 999's comment that this is a "good thread"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

Lox, those you refer to as militants in the video are described as being members of Hamas, the democratically elected rulers of Gaza, by the narrator.

As you didn't seem to have much difficulty keeping the Israeli atrocity
thread alive with your insights and fact finding, I suggest that you do the research into this atrocity and and post links to the media's reports about it. As for myself, I will be scouring the internet looking for other atrocities for you to denounce.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:49 PM

Lox, you know him not at all. He IS concerned with other atrocities. Some other folks `round here would do well to speak to that issue. Yes, the Israelis have fucked up. So too have many other `groups`, but the others seldom draw the fire drawn by Israelis. That`s his point, and you just spoke to it. When Hamas is nailed to the wall, I hope you`ll be helping with a hammer--claw if you wish. That also works both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:50 PM

Here is another atrocity which, thankfully, has a happy ending due to the actions of those who were it's target.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:01 PM

It's a great thread, Lox. I consider it a great opportunity and I plan to utterly wear it out. bobad might even get tired of me posting to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM

Turkey and it's atrocities towards the Kurds .... Turkey, one of the countries now condeming Israel over its's attack on the flotilla .. watch this clip

Turkey ... state terror

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

Iraq`s sarin gas attack on the Kurds. Possibly--best estimates I`ve read--10,000 dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:09 PM

Turkish Democracy: Attack on unarmed Kurdish Civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:11 PM

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2766505

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/asia/05afghan.html?ref=world

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25107.htm


( ...note to Lox - having said what I did above, however, I don't anticipate that bobad will actually look inside any of my links)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/04/24/our-afghan-victims-have-faces/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:17 PM

http://www.thenation.com/article/disposable-soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

http://www.thenation.com/article/living-tip-spear

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:19 PM

"As you didn't seem to have much difficulty keeping the Israeli atrocity
thread alive with your insights and fact finding,"

1. I was engaged in a debate with people who disagreed with me.

Is there anyone here who disagrees with you?


2. I have a vested interest in how Israel acts as My government supports the Israeli Government in my name.

3. I have a vested interest in how Israel acts as I pay texes which go towards providing the weapons used by The IDF.

4. I initiated the first thread about the flotilla as I actually cared about that subject (for the reasons given above) - hence it was my responsibility to provide information relating to it.



This is your thread Bobad - if you are reporting on an atrocity you care about then do so.


It looks like all you are going to do is post lots of atrocities that you don't care about.


PS "Lox, those you refer to as militants in the video are described as being members of Hamas, the democratically elected rulers of Gaza, by the narrator."

Do you know who the narrator is?


Because you may be interested to know that when I last clicked on the link I found this message in place of the Video.

"This video has been removed due to terms of use violation."

I wonder what that says about the reliability of the Narrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

British interventions:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2208028064&topic=9765

There are many soviet examples, here is one:

Soviet incursion In Afghanistan 1979 to 1989
"The number of Afghans killed - among the regime, mojahedin, and noncombatants - was estimated between 1 and 1.5 million, with tens of thousands of others crippled".


http://www.answers.com/topic/soviet-war-in-afghanistan

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:27 PM

Carol,

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly.

I see no respect for those hurt in any of these atrocities in this thread.

I see video's being thrown around and used as political weapons in a free for all of self righteous pointless inertia.

What can possibly be gained from this?

This thread, if it is to be a competition of gory videos, whether as initiated by bobad or as continued by you or anyone else, is a grubby and degrading blight on the landscape of the mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

"Here is another atrocity which, thankfully, has a happy ending due to the actions of those who were it's target."

There is nothing happy about this video.

There is also nothing current about this video.

I've seen it on the net before a long time ago.

Perhaps we should provide links to the two Bloody sundays in Ireland.

How about the Amritsar Massacre?

Or the murders in Sharpeville?


Anyone who continues to post to this thread should be deeply ashamed of themselves for exploiting the fear and suffering of others to promote their sense of self righteousness.



I posted in support of the flotilla because I believe that it is the first ting that has happened in the history of the Israel/Palestine situation that might help bring about an end to the stalemate.

If you want to know how then start another thread.


Till then, All of you, have another look at those videos and look at the fact that they have real people in them.

I am disgusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6CNd2fxNUA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfznE3BAvw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RNbYObjwk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW31YlDlNm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfpDOohpCCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pqFX_Vx6Rs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkglAYl4KAs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfsGT66Dbw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqamAzs-NR4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp2Ks1aL14&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:44 PM

Here's one


Am I playng the game right?



How about this?



Loads of pics here ... phwoooaaarrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lets see, Attila the Hun, Caesar, Hitler, ... we could really have an orgy of atrocities her couldn't we ...


Come on Bobad ... Give it to us Baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:45 PM

I understand what you're saying, Lox, and I notice that you and I tend to confine our criticism to atrocities over which we personally bear some responsibility, while bobad and some others on the thread only want to point fingers at others while ignoring the atrocities over which they bear some responsibility, and I understand the hypocrisy of that. But... this thread gives me an opportunity to post some things that I wanted to post anyway. I think they are things that should be seen. I don't expect any hypocrites to look at them, but other people might.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolkuDjm8fM&feature=fvw

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:49 PM

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/8-weeks-on-Nato-admits.6102256.jp

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:51 PM

http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1949-an-unaccustomed-truth-american-commander-admits-afghan-atrocities.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:52 PM

http://economycollapse.blogspot.com/2010/02/haiti-oil-gold-silver-us-occupation.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM

I don't know whether or not I bear any personal responsibility for this, but these people deserve a voice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4tuTFZ3wXQ

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

Well, one more for now...

http://www.examiner.com/x-20536-Dallas-Progressive-Examiner~y2010m1d17-More-details-on-Americans-execution-of-handcuffed-Afghan-children

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:46 PM

I unfortunately saw a picture of this young man's face after it was destroyed. It was staring at me on my Facebook page after one of my of my Facebook friends posted it to his feed. It was very upsetting. I bear some responsibility for this one because my tax dollars are being used to prop up the dictatorial regime of the president of this country...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5im-Kw1VwkViBjtBkORFz0olsP-uAD9G9ACE80

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM

Maybe I'd better give it a rest for now. Don't want anyone accusing me of being "obsessed".

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

Belgians in the Congo.

Americans propping up the Pinochet regime.

Dutch East Indies Company treatment of East Indies natives.

Early American settlers sending smallpox-infected blankets to Native American tribes.

The Vikings terrorizing the British Isles

The Romans salting the fields outside Carthage.

Various British massacres in India during the Raj.

The burning of the library at Alexandria.

Feeding Christians to the lions in the Roman arenas.

The Shoah.

Masada.

The Israelite conquest of Canaan as portrayed in the Biblical book of Joshua.

The Spanish Inquisition.

The 30 Years' War.

Kit Carson's assault on the Navajo.

The Trail of Tears.

Invasion of Poland, 1939.

The Somme.

Verdun.

The Gulags.

The Russian Revolution.

The French Revolution.

"Decimation" as practiced by the Romans.

The Fourth Crusade.

All the other Crusades.

Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Gypsies from Britain, etc.

Treatment of native Peruvians by Pizarro.

Treatment of native Alaskans by Russians.

Battle of Kosovo (1448).

Invasion of England , 1066.

Burning of Moscow, 1812.

Attempted destruction of the Nez Pierce.

Kent State.

Sinking of the Lusitania.

The reign of Bloody Mary.

Cambodia's killing fields.

Tienanmen Square.

My Lai massacre.

Boxer Rebellion.

Black Hole of Calcutta.

Cancelling of "Firefly".

Using the sufferings of others to score cheap rhetorical points.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

50.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:00 AM

You could easily make the 1000 with examples from Viet Nam, Cambodia, Haiti, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, Chicago, Kent State, Mississippi, Mexico, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ireland (Bloody Sunday report due next week), Chile, Greece, Argentina, Former Yugoslavia, Rwanda...
And going back even further, The Boer War (first use of concentration camps), India (remember Amritsar), The Belgian Congo (good old King Leo)...
Isn't it somewhat clutching at straws to attempt to justify Israeli atrocities by giving examples of others.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:36 AM

"Canada, addressing one of the darkest chapters in its history, formally apologised on June 12 2008 for forcing 150,000 aboriginal children into grim residential schools, where many say they were sexually and physically abused

Contemporary accounts suggest up to half the children in some institutions died of tuberculosis and other diseases.

Many survivors say they were abused mentally, physically and sexually. Children were beaten for speaking their own languages and told they would be damned unless they converted to Christianity."


Sometimes dreadful things happen close to home or by our close allies - in these instances perhaps all we can do is protest and demand that these things not be done 'in our name'
In fact, I believe that we have a 'duty' to do so


There are many atrocities in the world some committed by individuals, some by whole governments, many in the name of religion or as acts of agression - some as acts of desperation

Yesterdays 'freedom fighters' become tomorrows statesmen and 'terrorism' in one state is financially backed by members of another (even 'allies')

"Anyone who continues to post to this thread should be deeply ashamed of themselves for exploiting the fear and suffering of others to promote their sense of self righteousness."

My apoplogies Lox, but this will probably be my only contribution to this thread which, as mousethief points out, is attempting to use "the sufferings of others to score cheap rhetorical points."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

30 Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." -- Jack Handy

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:16 AM

To the various posters here - I don't know about others but I don't particularly like clicking on gory images, so I've tended not to click on unexplained links posted here. That's not to say that gory images are inappropriate on a thread about atrocities of course (unfortunately they are very often a part of the reality of 'atrocities' in general), but for those taking the time to link to stories that genuinely concern them, I personally prefer to know what exactly I'm being invited to look at and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: number 6
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

Somalia

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:20 AM

Speaking of disproportionate, when I Googled the word atrocities this came up on the bottom of page 2.


Searches related to atrocities

atrocities meaning

war atrocities

dictionary

israeli atrocities

japanese atrocities

atrocities definition

atrocities bible

atrocities music

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 07:13 AM

Atrocities, torture, human rights abuses, assassinations, espionage, starving, imprisoning and disposessing civilians, bombing hospitals and schools (with chemical weapons).... all are ways by which strong nations rob, exploit, subjugate, religiously and politically, and generally impose their will on weaker ones.
Israel has relatively recently entered that league table and is climbing rapidly, (though it has been involved in such abuses at least as far back as its involvement in the Shatila and Sabra massacres of refugees) It has some way to go to beat the champions, but it is getting there!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM

Isn't it somewhat clutching at straws to attempt to justify Israeli atrocities by giving examples of others?

In a word: yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:19 AM

It may or may not be clutching at straws, but very few posters here seem to address atrocities unless they directly relate to Israel. Y`all might have a good look at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:20 AM

A year ago the atrocity of the Iranian government's brutal suppression of the election protest was a lively topic of discussion in this forum. The main thread on it recorded 298 posts.


Supporters of political leader Mirhossein Mousavi are dogged by oppression, but time may be running out for the hardline regime, writes MARTIN FLETCHER.

'Government brutality and intimidation can withstand the march of histor y for years, but not indefinitely.' KARIM SADJADPOUR, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Ayear ago today Bahareh Maghami, 28, a primary school teacher, was arrested at Ghoba mosque, Tehran, during the huge demonstrations that followed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's disputed election victory. She was beaten and raped. She fled to Germany and recently posted an open letter on the Internet because, she said, "there is nothing left of me and no reason to hide my name any more."

Tens of millions of Iranians turned out to vote a year ago today, believing they could put an end to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's repressive regime. One year later, the Green Movement opposition has lost momentum and some supporters bemoan its lack of strategy and leadership.

She recalled: "There were three of them. All were dirty and wore beards. They had a terrible accent and foul mouths. Even though they saw that I was a virgin they accused me of being a whore and forced me to admit I was a prostitute." She still wakes in terror at night, still smells their sweat. She told how her father " shattered into pieces" when he learned her fate, and her mother "aged a hundred years overnight." Because of her shame " relatives, friends, neighbours and everyone cut off relations."

The family was driven from Tehran, and then from Iran. As for herself, it is "as if my whole humanity is taken away from me. My womanhood was destroyed. I will never be able to love a man. I'm like the walking dead."

Tens of millions of Iranians turned out to vote for Mir Hossein Mousavi last June 12, encouraged to believe by the huge and exuberant opposition rallies of the previous week that they really could oust Ahmadinejad's repressive regime.

It was an illusion and their excitement turned to terror. State television pre-emptively declared Ahmadinejad the winner. The Internet and phone systems went down. Security forces beat anyone in sight. Within two days, most foreign journalists had to leave Iran and the regime unleashed a campaign of brutality.

It took eight months but the street demonstrations were eventually snuffed out. More than 100 protesters were killed, including Neda Soltan, the student who became a global symbol of the regime's inhumanity. Others died mysteriously, among them Mousavi's nephew, and a young doctor who witnessed the deaths of inmates in an infamous detention centre.

More than 5,000 demonstrators have been arrested, and that is the off icial f igure. Many more — lawyers, rights activists, academics, students, artists — have been held in an attempt to decapitate the "Green Movement."

Mousavi and his co-leaders, Mehdi Karoubi and Mohammed Khatami, the former president, have escaped arrest only because the regime fears the eruption that would follow. Their aides and advisers were less fortunate. Many detainees have been tortured. Amnesty International reported this week that they have suffered "severe beatings, using hands, feet or cables; electric shocks; hanging upside down by the feet for long periods; rape of both men and women, including with implements; death threats, including mock executions."

More than 100 journalists have been forced to flee the country and 23 newspapers have been shut down. About 170 journalists and bloggers have been arrested; 22 have been sentenced to terms totalling 135 years, while 85 await trial or sentencing.

"An entire profession of journalists, political observers and social activists ... has been eradicated," said Reporters Without Borders. The Committee to Protect Journalists said Iran was the "world's worst jailer of journalists." Thousands more Iranians have fled abroad but the regime's efforts to silence its critics do not stop at Iran's borders. Tehran-based relatives of exiles such as Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel peace laureate, and Arash Hejazi, the doctor who tried to save Neda Soltan's life, have been harassed or arrested.

The regime suppresses any challenge to its own narrative — that the Green Movement is a creature of western powers determined to destroy the Islamic Republic. As a result, the regime blocks websites, monitors e-mails and telephone calls and jams foreign satellite channels.

The families of those killed are denied mourning ceremonies and are offered blood money to drop their complaints. Soccer matches have been broadcast without sound to thwart anti-regime chanting. Ministries and universities have been purged.

In a sense the strategy has worked. The regime has survived, for now, the worst crisis in the Islamic Republic's 31-year history. Some people still shout defiance from Tehran's rooftops at night, daub slogans on walls and deface banknotes, but the capital is so saturated with security forces that opposition leaders called off a rally today in order to " protect people's lives and property."

There is, however, a widespread conviction that the regime has sown the seeds of its own collapse.

A government that claims to champion Islamic values has lost all legitimacy and moral authority, with Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the oncerevered Supreme Leader, now widely reviled. The economy is deteriorating, and the political establishment is divided.

Karim Sadjadpour, of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, said: "Government brutality and intimidation can withstand the march of history for years, but not indefinitely."

Maghami urges other victims to speak out. "They must write so that those who come after us and live in a free Iran know what price was paid for their freedom." Of Ayatollah Khamenei she asks: "You consider yourself the father of this nation? I was a daughter of Iran. Your sons raped me. Who will pay for my lost dignity?"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

CarolC writes: I disagree that Israel is the biggest problem. The United States is the biggest problem. Israel is second.

CarolC, you share this opinion with Khomeiny (remember, the Big Satan and the Little Satan). Be careful who you sing We Shall Overcome with...

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:00 AM

From Freedom House Report 2010:

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

The report also includes eight additional countries near the bottom of Freedom House's ratings scale: Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Guinea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. The two territories
of South Ossetia and Western Sahara are also included in this group."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

CarolC, you share this opinion with Khomeiny (remember, the Big Satan and the Little Satan). Be careful who you sing We Shall Overcome with...

Ah, guilt by association. You're capable of any number of logical fallacies.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

More "guilt by innuendo", methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM

CarolC, you share this opinion with Khomeiny (remember, the Big Satan and the Little Satan). Be careful who you sing We Shall Overcome with...

Roberto, the United States is responsible for killing more people and destroying more lives, societies, and countries than Khomeini by many orders of magnitude. Since 1945, the US has murdered, maimed, made homeless, tortured, assassinated, and impoverished the largest number of civilians who were not its own citizens, and has destroyed more countries, societies, and economies than any other country in the world. And it has armed, trained, funded, and installed in power many of the other people who were committing similar atrocities. Khomeini is very small potatoes in the list of people or countries who are responsible for atrocities. My saying so makes me someone who tells the truth, not someone who should be smeared by hypocrites. And just because Khomeini said it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Crow Sister, I don't think any of my links contain any gory images. Even the article about the young man in Egypt doesn't have his picture. I saw that in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

And Israel is second because many of the other people who have committed atrocities that people like to point fingers at around the world were armed and/or trained by Israel. And that is, of course on top of all of the atrocities that have been directly committed by Israelis. And that's one of the problems with a thread like this one. Criticism about the atrocities committed by quite a few countries' governments is at bottom, a criticism of Israel, because many of them would not have been able to commit those atrocities without Israel's help. And not infrequently, Israel arms both sides in a conflict. So it's kind of hard to criticize a lot of atrocities committed around the world without criticizing Israel. The government of South Africa under apartheid, for example, was greatly assisted by the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

"Included in this report are nine countries...."
As I said Roberto - the Israelis are doing their best - give them time and they'll get there.
Do you believe that other countries carrying out atrocities excuses those by Israel - otherwise, what's your point?
"but very few posters here seem to address atrocities unless they directly relate to Israel."
The previous thread was concerned directly with Israeli atrocities at sea - the OP chose to deliberately exclude Israeli abuses (wonder why? maybe as a diversion from those atrocities)
I think you'll find that most of us are fairly even-hannded towards all acts of abuse and terrorism (except the OP who doesn't want us to discuss Israel).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:01 PM

I notice bobad and some others are mostly mentioning atrocities committed by countries with whom Israel is pissed off. That kind of behavior seems to be motivated more by political considerations than any genuine concern for human suffereing. And the chart in bobad's link to the worst atrocities is a joke. It doesn't include any of the atrocities that have been committed by the US, like the illegal and covert bombing of Laos and Cabodia, or even the millions of people killed by the US in the Vietnam war.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

I included My Lai, and the Trail of Tears, among other US atrocities in my list. We're not all blind to the failings of our own nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

I wasn't thinking of you, mousethief, in any of my previous comments.


Here's an atrocity in the making. Yet another false flag operation...


On 20 May, South Korea announced that it had "overwhelming evidence" that one of its warships, the Cheonan, had been sunk by a torpedo fired by a North Korean submarine in March with the loss of 46 sailors. The United States maintains 28,000 troops in South Korea, where popular sentiment has long backed a détente with Pyongyang.

On 26 May, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton flew to Seoul and demanded that the "international community must respond" to "North Korea's outrage". She flew on to Japan, where the new "threat" from North Korea conveniently eclipsed the briefly independent foreign policy of Japanese prime minister Yukio Hatoyama, elected last year with popular opposition to America's permanent military occupation of Japan. The "overwhelming evidence" is a torpedo propeller that "had been corroding at least for several months," reported the Korea Times. In April, the director of South Korea's national intelligence, Won See-hoon, told a parliamentary committee that there was no evidence linking the sinking of the Cheonan to North Korea. The defence minister agreed. The head of South Korea's military marine operations said, "No North Korean warships have been detected [in] the waters where the accident took place." The reference to "accident" suggests the warship struck a reef and broke in two.

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=578

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

Carol, I thought from the beginning that that alleged North Korean "attack" was very odd, because:

1. What possible gain would North Korea get from sinking one South Korean warship and possibly thereby triggering a war which could devastate both Koreas?

Answer: no possible gain. None whatsoever. Only disaster.

Therefore, why the hell would they do it? One might ask the same question about why the hell the Spanish would have sunk the Maine in Havana Harbour. It seems quite doubtful that they did (it may have blown up by accident...such things did happen with warships now and then...or it may have been a USA-planned "false flag" sabotage operation to provide an excuse for war....or the Cuban revolutionaries might have done it to help get the USA involved in liberating Cuba from Spain...but the LEAST likely possibility of all is that the Spanish would have done it! They could only meet disaster from such a foolish action.) Nevertheless, the American public reacted as if the Spanish had done it, and the American press publicized it as if the Spanish had done it, and PRESTO! They got the desired war with Spain...and the USA cheaply acquired an overseas empire with vital naval bases in Cuba and the Phillipines as a direct result of that.

This sort of shit mysteriously happens a lot when some large country is looking to create an international crisis from which it can gain advantage over some weaker country.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

Hmmmmm.   Do the words :"Gulf of Tonkin" start a train of thought in anyone's mind?.............

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

That's how they always do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

In this video a female, Egyyptian lawyer says that Arab men should sexually harass Israeli women as a form of resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDqWGtykYNE&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:26 PM

What hope for peace is there when racism and bigotry exists on either side of the Apartheid Wall?

Particularly of concern is that these are the guys with the guns!

We're humans, they're animals

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

Sinking of the Belgrano by that concha madre thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

Jim Carroll (to me, Roberto): "Do you believe that other countries carrying out atrocities excuses those by Israel - otherwise, what's your point?"

I really can't aunderstand the meaning of your post. This thread's title reads "atrocities (other than Israeli)". I posted a summary of the ideas that Freedom House has about what are the worst statual and regional situations in the world in terms of human rights. I didn't even say if their opinion is mine. Do you mean that when we talk about atrocities we can't mention but Israel? What's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 08:25 PM

CarolC,

"The 'overwhelming evidence' is a torpedo propeller that 'had been corroding at least for several months,' reported the Korea Times."


When was this reported, and from what real source ( information, not the article)? Please provide clicky if you can- this is not in accord with the May 20th report.



"In April, the director of South Korea's national intelligence, Won See-hoon, told a parliamentary committee that there was no evidence linking the sinking of the Cheonan to North Korea. The defence minister agreed. The head of South Korea's military marine operations said, 'No North Korean warships have been detected [in] the waters where the accident took place.' The reference to 'accident' suggests the warship struck a reef and broke in two" "

I believe that April is before May 20th. Please correct me if I am wrong. You do not allow that additional information, not previously known, might be found? And that there would not be an interest in playing down speculation without evidence back in April, to cool things off?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 08:39 PM

"But unfortunately the truth about atrocities is far worse than that they are lied about and made into propaganda. The truth is that they happen." -- George Orwell, "Looking Back on the Spanish War" (1942)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 09:19 PM

I saw a man who had to have at least a 60 inch waist wearing lime green short and a hot yellow "muscle shirt" at the store today. It was an aesthetic atrocity of the first water.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

I think I'm probably going to have to contact the editor of the site, beardedbruce, to find out where they got their information.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 09:55 PM

Or maybe not. Here's more evidence of a false flag operation. And the motive would be Japan's desire to get the US bases off Okinawa, and the US' intention to keep them there...

http://mostlywater.org/north_korean_ship_sinking_another_false_flag


This page has a link to a pdf of a letter sent to Hilary Clinton by one of the investigators...

http://letsrollforums.com/korean-ship-sinking-definitly-t21375.html?t=21375


The government of North Korea doesn't have anything to gain from an attack on the ship. The government of the US does. The government of North Korea, and the government of China both say that North Korea didn't do it. The government of China has been investigating also, and they say the US sunk the ship. Looks to me like a false flag operation designed to pressure the government of Japan into allowing the US to keep its bases in Japan.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM

That would seem like a nice, understandable strategic objective. ;-) Certainly worth one little ship and some South Korean sailors. So, Japan loses, North Korea loses, and South Korea loses, but the USA gets what it desires.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:17 AM

Everyone should watch this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsrMzfhdmkU

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:33 AM

"What's your point? "
My point is that this thread has been started because the pro-Zionist apologists on the 'Israeli atrocity' thread were getting the worst of it and have attempted to justify Israeli behaviour with the old "everybody does it" tactic.
Israel is a human rights offender and a recognised belligerant terrorist state, and it is dishonest and illogical to exclude it from any discussion on atrocities. Why exclude Israel; why not Zimbabwe; after all, the attack on the aid covoy is the most recent example we heve of an act of terrorism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:35 AM

CarolC

I fail to see how the sites you gave present an unbiased viewpoint- but thanks for the info.

IMO, the NK use violent action all the time, to push for INTERNAL control. How else can they keep a starving population under control, without offering change?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

One year later, Iranians killed by the Ayatollahs ask from their graves, "Where is our Flotilla?"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

Well, you can't expect any complaints- the FIRST year of the Islamic Republic ( Iran) saw more Iranian people killed by the government than the number killed during the ENTIRE reign of the "evil, murdering" Shah. But they disagreed with the Mullahs, so that was OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

Query: Why are theocracies like Iran & the Taliban universally condemned while the theocracy that is Israel universally praised?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:14 AM

Israel is not a theocracy. If words and terms we use keep any meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:41 AM

I think it should be stated that the USA still has over 30,000 soldiers under arms on the DMZ.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Jim Carroll. I didn't start this thread. I agree that the theme of the thread is closely linked to the thread on the Gaza flotilla. It is a reaction, I think, to the lack of proportion that some people show (you among them, in my opinion) when they deal with Israel, an attitude that I consider an indication of a cognitive trouble. This thread, I think, asks to examine what else wouldn't work in the world if Israel wouldn't exist: Ok, says this thread, we have different ideas on Israel. Let's see if we agree on what are the other problems. And the result is some of you don't even participate to the game: you replied to my post containing the Freedom House's list of the worst states in the world regarding human rights asking me a sort of password before going on (do you believe that other countries carrying out atrocities excuses those by Israel - otherwise, what's your point?), while CarolC, to name a new friend I've met in these political threads, states that every other problem in the world is a minor one ("The United States is the biggest problem. Israel is second"). To focus only on the Western Countries could have been Ok in the past, now we are in a brave new world, we must keep criticizing our societies, but be careful not to join out voices with the worst of the rest of the world, that is every day more prominent, starting with China, and where most battles for democracy, freedom, woman condition, haven't started yet.

I've never posted anything in the lower section of the Mudcat before these two threads. The result of this experience is I've lost time and peace and exposed to risk acquaintances I hold in esteem. Before the next quarrel, our attitudes being so far-off, thanks a lot for Carolyne Hughes' Barbara Allen.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

I fail to see how the sites you gave present an unbiased viewpoint- but thanks for the info.

Please tell me what is any more biased about the letter to Hillary Clinton from the South Korean inspector than the rest of the reports from inspectors.

And on your second point, whenever we seek to "liberate" a people from their government, we always somehow seem to make life worse for them rather than better.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

while CarolC, to name a new friend I've met in these political threads, states that every other problem in the world is a minor one

You shouldn't lie about people, Roberto.

The other problems aren't minor ones. They're definitely not minor. It's just that the majority of the problems in the world are caused by the US and Israel, which is why they are the two biggest problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

Carol, I didn't lie (too often you accuse people of telling lies), and you've just confirmed your opinion (USA and Israel being the two major problems in the world), that I don't share.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

No, Roberto. You said that I consider the problems in other parts of the world to be minor. I do not consider them to be at all minor. So what you said is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

Also, Roberto, I consider it hypocritical to be pointing fingers at others while ignoring the things for which one bears responsibility oneself. The two countries for which I am responsible are the US and Israel. So even beyond the fact that these two countries are responsible for the majority of problems in the world, it would be hypocritical for me to be focusing my attention on problems caused by other countries while the two countries for which I am responsible are causing problems themselves, especially if, like some of the people in this thread, I was ignoring the problems being caused by the countries for which I am responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

I just want to mention in passing that my dog has committed a long series of atrocities, and he exhibits no remorse. For some reason it has not reached the attention of the world media, but I assure you that he leads the pack when it comes to truly atrocious behaviour. ;-)

And there's also a grey cat next door who keeps killing my chipmunks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

CarolC. Maybe I've been inaccurate summing up your thought, but not a liar. If we were to discuss in Italian, I'd be more accurate and make less mistakes. Ok, you say that USA and Israel are the two biggest problems, and I think you're wrong, blind and, although you write from the USA, provincial.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:35 PM

CarolC. Maybe I've been inaccurate summing up your thought, but not a liar. If we were to discuss in Italian, I'd be more accurate and make less mistakes.

Ok. I accept this characterization of your behavior.


Ok, you say that USA and Israel are the two biggest problems, and I think you're wrong, blind and, although you write from the USA, provincial.

That's really quite funny. Because I am concerned with the welfare of people in other countries who are suffering because of atrocities being committed by my government and the government of another country whose atrocities are enabled by my government and my tax dollars, you are telling me that I am provincial. I think you're right about your command of English hampering your ability to discuss this subject easily here in this thread. You clearly don't understand what the word "provincial" means.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

The young man who was tortured to death in Egypt (I posted an article about him earlier), and the use of torture generally by the government of Egypt is being protested on the streets of Egypt right now. It is apparently a large and very vigorous protest that according to one source of mine, is now including police fighting against police, and also involves people tearing down Mubarak's pictures all over the place. Here is some video from that. From what I have been able to discern, they are trying to get Mubarak removed from power...

http://bambuser.com/channel/RamyRaoof/broadcast/827016

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Roberto
Then stop hiding behind the suggestion that any of the responses to Israel's behaviour have anything whatever to do with anti-Semitism in any form.
During my lifetime Nazi concentration camps were in full swing in their task of exterminating Jews, I was born into an anti-Fascist household and was brought up to oppose any form of racism and bigotry.
My father fought Fascism in Spain, was wounded and taken prisoner of war, and came home to a police record as a "premature anti-Fascist". He was also excommunicated from his religion and blacklisted from his work for having done so. Don't you dare describe me or anybody here an anti Semite unless you can back it up with examples.
I have seen the practice of 'crying wolf' - claiming racism or bigotry when none is present - do a great deal of damage to the fight against Fascism, racism and bigotry.
If you can show any examples of anti-Semitism on this thread please do so. If you are using the claim to defend the behaviour of Israel - shame on you.
If opposing Israel's policy of expansionism and oppression is anti-Semitic, then I have a large number of Jewish friends who can be described thus.
I respect your knowledge and am grateful for the help you gave me, but that has nothing whatever to do with this discussion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

You simply cannot imagine how hard it was for me to resist making the 100th post to this thread! I am a paragon of self-control. ;-)

Roberto, I'm from Canada, and I agree with CarolC on this. I also think that the USA and Israel presently cause more trouble to other nations than any other 2 nations I can think of. However, it's a bit more complex than that. What you really have is an unofficial alliance of the primary English-speaking nations (USA, UK, Canada, Australia) and Israel. They work together toward common geopolitical objectives, and those objectives are, I think, as follows:

1. control the Middle East and Caspian regions
2. thereby control the oil in those regions
3. thereby put Russia and China in a weak position
4. thereby dominate the world, and...
5. hopefully push Russia and China into opposing each other by causing China to look elsewhere for its energy supplies...into Russian territory

It's a very large political game, and it's being played out in a totally ruthless manner. It has nothing to do with democracy, freedom or any other idealistic thing like that, it has to do with naked power, oil, and survival.

The so-called War on Terror serves the purposes of that overall strategic plan, and the Muslim nations are pawns to be moved around and/or sacrificed.

Ultimately, the game has to do with facing off against the Russians and the Chinese.

In this game it is the USA and Israel which commit the largest number of aggressive and destructive acts, and which kill the most people. That's because they are the best armed, and in Israel's case, it's because they are strategically positioned in the contested region, close to the sources of oil.

It's standard imperial politics. If some other nation was a greater military power than the USA, they would probably be doing something quite similar, so it isn't that the USA is inherently more evil than other nations....it's because they USA is presently the leading military power...so they CAN dow what they do, and get away with it. Others cannot. (except for Israel...which has USA backing)

As the British once dominated the world (after the fall of Napoleon in 1815), the USA now dominates the world, and it's playing imperial games because it can.

All empires eventually fail, often not long after they have reached their point of greatest expansion. Why? Because they grow too large to manage efficiently, and they acquire too many potential enemies. They collapse under their own weight. I think America is getting very close to reaching that point. In fact, I think the collapse is under way. It's a dangerous point when that process begins, because it usually provokes more military conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

That pretty much sums it up, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

CarolC, you say that you feel responsible for the US and Israel, and that's why you concentrate your attention most of all on them. Ok, your problem. Other thing is to judge the US and Israel the two biggest problems and cause of problems in the world: here is a matter of political and historical analysis, that nothing has to do with how your government spends your taxes and how you feel responsible etc. This assessment has to have a universal merit, and every person in the world can participate and discuss what is best and what is worst. And this is true now more than some years ago, because we're more than ever all linked together. When you say "the US and Israel, they are the two biggest problems" you say something that I consider awfully stupid. And as I told you before, you share this opinion with Khomeiny and friends. Here you cease to be responsible and become irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim Carroll writes: "Roberto, then stop hiding behind the suggestion that any of the responses to Israel's behaviour have anything whatever to do with anti-Semitism in any form."

Would you please show me where I did that?

I've written something about anti-semitism in these two threads on Israel, Gaza etc in two circumstances: first, when I said that Angela Lano, the Italian activist on board the flotilla, is closely linked to anti-semite characters, which I think I've proven. Second, when I replied to Don(Wyziwyg)T about the meaning of anti-semitism, a term that was born to mean anti-judaism, not, as Don(Wyziwyg)T claimed, both hatred against Hebrews and Arabs: mine is not an opinion, but an historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

Well, naturally their targets think they are the biggest problem too, Roberto. Why wouldn't they think so? That doesn't mean it isn't true. Somebody always gets to be an empire's target. That somebody may not be the nicest regime either...but if they are a target, they know it.

What Carol means, I think, by "I am responsible for the USA and Israel" is this: she lives in the place where the imperial policy comes from. It's her home. One should confront evil at home first, before concerning oneself with evil in distant lands, because if you cannot first put an end to evil in your own home, you have no business dealing with evil somewhere else.

I also live in the place where the imperial policy comes from, because I live in Canada, a country that is part of the Anglo-Israeli alliance. That's why I feel the way I do about it. My own country is backing that imperial policy, and I don't agree with that.

The oil that is in the Middle East and the Caspian areas should benefit the people of those areas and should be totally under their control, and our soldiers should not be sent to invade foreign lands (such as Iraq and Afghanistan) that present no military threat at all to our existence.

As for Israel, Israel is totally able to defend itself. That has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt. They are not the victim in the Middle East, they are the one holding a whip and a club in their hands. They have at least a couple of hundred nuclear weapons, and they also have conventional military superiority over all their neighbours in that region.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM

Roberto, you are quite wrong. I am being totally responsible. It's the people who are, like you, trying to sweep the much more numerous problems being created by the US and Israel under a rug, while trying to divert attention to the far fewer problems being created by other countries, who are being irresponsible. And hypocritical, also. And, I might add, provincial. Provincial, because it's clearly not out of concern for anyone's suffering that you and those who argue like you are doing this. It is an effort to silence those who are highlighting problems that you would prefer to remain hidden, because it causes problems for those with whom you identify when these problems are brought to light.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:13 PM

""Another difference is that some atrosities seem to weigh more on people`s minds than others. Strange, that.""

I expect that fuzzy thinking from Bobad, he's an expert, and he has an axe to grind in playing down the Israeli government's abysmal treatment of its neighbours.

But you are usually more analytical in your thought processes.

Stuff happens, and when it does, it occupies our minds for a time which may vary from story to story, depending largely upon how much we are affected (shocked, amused, bored etc. etc.)

It happens with nearly every major news event, and for that time it becomes the focus of discussion, and tends to place older or less immediate items on the back burner.

That doesn't mean that we are less exercised by those events, but simply that our focus is temporarily removed from them.

So, if I want you to stop discussing an event in my neck of the woods, what better way than to point up all the distractions in order to divert your attention elsewhere.

The sheer illogic, in the middle of discussion of the rights and wrongs of acts of piracy and murder in international waters, of asking for opinions regarding non related, and in many cases dissimilar events, is astonishing.

It is playground politics. "It's not my fault Miss, 'cos Tommy did it first, and hedid it much worse than me".

It is disingenuous, amd irrelevant to the discussion, but of course that doesn't matter, if it achieves the objective of distracting from the present discussion.

It is doubly reprehensible, as the by product is the labelling of the "opposition", as being intolerant of Jews, and as being apologists for the perpetrators of other crimes.

That is the purpose for which this thread was started, and the reason why I now leave, never to return.

Enjoy
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

So long Don, thanks for dropping in.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

Oh, and your ad-hominem observations have been duly noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

Israel is not a theocracy.

Say what? Then Iran and the Taliban areas aren't as well, I suppose?

there's also a grey cat next door who keeps killing my chipmunks

Not that situation isn't complex or insoluble - easily solved with a .22 or a small-gauge shotgum.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:57 PM

Several folks here and at the other Israel bashing thread have opined that Israel is a theocracy. While what Israel is or is not may be debated, it certainly is not a theocracy under any legitimate use of that term, or as Roberto put it earlier, "...If words and terms we use keep any meaning."

The following article or essay may explain the type of governance Israel has, which is not far different from that of the US or UK. While I normally eschew the use of cut and paste, I have made an exception in this case.

                        ------------------------

"Should Israel Be a Jewish State?"
Mitchell G. Bard

Myth: "Israel is a theocracy and should not be a Jewish State."

Fact:

It often makes people uncomfortable to refer to Israel as "the Jewish State" because it suggests a theocracy and, therefore, the demise of Israel as a Jewish state is viewed by some people (even in Israel) as a positive development. Israel is not a theocracy; however, it is governed by the rule of law as drafted by a democratically elected parliament. It is informed by Jewish values and adheres to many Jewish religious customs (such as holidays), but this is similar to the United States and other nations that are shaped by the Judeo-Christian heritage and also have expressly religious elements (e.g., church-state separation in the U.S. does not preclude the recognition of Christmas as a holiday).

Israel has no state religion, and all faiths enjoy freedom of worship, yet it is attacked for its Jewish character, whereas the Arab states that all have Islam as their official religion are regarded as legitimate.

The Jewish people are a nation with a shared origin, religion, culture, language, and history. And why shouldn't the Jewish people have a state? No one suggests that Arabs are not entitled to a nation (and they have not one, but twenty-one [eight of which operate under Islamic or Sharia Law /JotSC]) of their own or Swedes or Germans, or that Catholics are not entitled to a state (Vatican City) headed by a theocrat (the Pope). To suggest that Zionism, the nationalist movement of the Jewish people, is the only form of nationalism that is illegitimate is pure bigotry. It is especially ironic that the Jewish nation should be challenged given that Jewish statehood preceded the emergence of most modern nation-states by thousands of years.

It is also not unusual that one community should be the majority within a nation and seek to maintain that status. In fact, this is true in nearly every country in the world. Moreover, societies usually reflect the cultural identity of the majority. India and Pakistan were established at the same time as Israel through a violent partition, but no one believes these nations are illegitimate because one is predominantly Hindu and the other has a Muslim majority, or that these nations shouldn't be influenced by those communities (e.g., that cows in India should not be treated as sacred).

In the United States, a vigorous debate persists over the boundaries between church and state. Similar discussions regarding "synagogue and state" are ongoing in Israel, with philosophical disagreements over whether Israel can be a Jewish and a democratic state, and practical arguments over Sabbath observance, marriage and divorce laws, and budgets for religious institutions. Nevertheless, most Jews take for granted that Israel is, and must remain, a Jewish state. Arab citizens also understand that Israel is a Jewish state and, while they might prefer that it was not, they have still chosen to live there (nothing prevents Arabs from moving to any of the 180-odd non-Jewish states in the world). Both Jews and Arabs realize that if Jews cease to be a majority in Israel, Israel will no longer have a Jewish character or serve as a haven for persecuted Jews, and that is one of the elements underlying peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=55895

                         --------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:58 AM

John, this thread is not about Israel. It's supposed to be about everyone except Israel. The other thread is about Israel. And it's not so much an "Israel bashing thread" as it is a "telling the truth about Israel thread". It's just that some people find the truth to be rather inconvenient, so they don't want anyone to be telling it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

It's like arguing whether England should remain an [i]English[/i] country, by which we mean populated by people whose near-distant ancestors were born in England, not in Pakistan or continental Europe or the Middle East. It's racism no matter how you slice it. In Britain it's called the BNP and everybody (except themselves) realize it's racist bullshit. There's no difference between "England for the English" and "Israel for the Jews." There's no reason any democracy should remain an X-majority state for any ethnic, racial, or religious value of X. To the extent that you're trying to do that, it's not a democracy, no matter what your system of government looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM

"Fresh ethnic violence erupts in Kyrgyzstan
         

Sasha Merkushev, Associated Press Writer – 18 mins ago


OSH, Kyrgyzstan – Thousands of Uzbeks fleeing southern Kyrgyzstan amassed at the border Monday, as the deadliest ethnic violence in decades left entire city blocks burned to the ground and scores of people dead.

The official death toll from the clashes that began last week reached 117, with 1,500 injured, the Health Ministry of the beleaguered former Soviet country, which hosts U.S. and Russian military bases, announced early Monday.

But an Uzbek leader claimed that 200 Uzbeks have already been buried, and the International Committee of the Red Cross has said its delegates witnessed about 100 bodies being buried in just one cemetery.

Jallahitdin Jalilatdinov, who heads the Uzbek National Center, also told The Associated Press on Monday that at least 100,000 had fled for the border and were awaiting entry into Uzbekistan. An Associated Press reporter saw at least hundreds of Uzbek refugees stuck at a border crossing near Jalal-Abad in no-man's-land between the boundaries.

The interim government, which took over after Kurmanbek Bakiyev was ousted by a public revolt in April, has been unable to stop the violence and accused Bakiyev's family of instigating it. Uzbeks have backed the interim government, while many Kyrgyz in the south have supported the toppled president.

New fires raged Monday across Osh — the country's second-largest city, on the border with Uzbekistan, where food and water were becoming scarce. Armed looters smashed stores, stealing everything from televisions to food.

In the mainly Uzbek district of Aravanskoe, an area formerly brimming with shops and restaurants, entire streets have been burned to the ground. In one still smoldering building, an Associated Press photographer saw the charred bodies of three people burned to death.

Despite military patrols, sporadic gunfire could be heard across the city. It was unclear who was shooting.

No police could be seen on the streets, though authorities insisted some of the improvised checkpoints dotted around the city of 250,000 were theirs.

Cars stolen from ethnic Uzbeks raced around the city, most crowded with young Kyrgyz wielding sharpened sticks, axes and metal rods.

In some parts of Osh, Kyrgyz residents protected homes housing both Kyrgyz and Uzbeks.

In another city beset by violence, Jalal-Abad, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) away, armed Kyrgyz amassed at the central square. Their goal was to travel to the nearby Uzbek settlement of Suzak in search of an Uzbek community leader they blame for starting the trouble.

As the clashes continued, desperately needed aid began trickling into the south. Several planes arrived at Osh airport loaded with tons of urgently needed medical supplies from the World Health Organization. Trucks carried the supplies into the city center accompanied by tank and trailed by an armored personnel carrier.

Flights were canceled to Osh and Jalal-Abad, though at least one regularly scheduled flight landed in the city, carrying acting deputy Prime Minister Omurbek Tekebayev.

The Uzbek border is just 3 miles (5 kilometers) from Osh. Uzbek refugees were mostly elderly people, women and children, with younger men staying behind to defend their property. Some were fired on as they fled.

The United States, Russia and the U.N. chief all expressed alarm about the scale of the violence and discussed how to help the refugees. The U.S. and Russia both have military bases in northern Kyrgyzstan, away from the rioting. Russia sent in an extra battalion to protect its air base.

The U.S. Manas air base in Bishkek is a crucial supply hub for the coalition fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan. Manas was working with the U.S. State Department and interim government to help deliver food and medical supplies, said Air Force Maj. John A. Elolf, a spokesman at the base.

Uzbeks make up 15 percent of Kygryzstan's 5 million people, but in the south their numbers rival ethnic Kyrgyz. The fertile Ferghana Valley where Osh and Jalal-Abad are located once belonged to a single feudal lord, but it was split by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin among Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, rekindling old rivalries.

From his self-imposed exile in Belarus, Bakiyev denied any role in the violence and blamed interim authorities for failing to protect the people.

Interim President Roza Otunbayeva's government had hoped to seal its political and democratic credentials in a referendum to approve a new constitution on June 27, but the likelihood of that vote taking place now looks slim.

The question of sending in foreign peacekeepers is yet to be formally raised in Moscow: A man who answered the telephone at the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization said the issue would be discussed on Monday, but his superior later said it remained unclear whether the meeting would go ahead.

In 1990, hundreds were killed in a land dispute between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks in Osh, and only quick deployment of Soviet troops quelled the fighting. With no Russian troops in sight this time, the interim government announced a partial mobilization of military reservists up to 50 years old.

"No one is rushing to help us, so we need to establish order ourselves," said Talaaibek Adibayev, a 39-year-old army veteran who showed up at Bishkek's military conscription office.

The fertile Ferghana Valley where Osh and Jalal-Abad are located once belonged to a single feudal lord, but it was split by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin among Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. The Stalinist borders rekindled old rivalries and fomented ethnic tensions. "

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

For those who can't bother to read the entire article,

"The official death toll from the clashes that began last week reached 117, with 1,500 injured, the Health Ministry of the beleaguered former Soviet country, which hosts U.S. and Russian military bases, announced early Monday.

But an Uzbek leader claimed that 200 Uzbeks have already been buried, and the International Committee of the Red Cross has said its delegates witnessed about 100 bodies being buried in just one cemetery."




But there are NO atrocities here. just look the other way and ignore the bodies.

( This started Friday, before I left work- and I waited to see if those who claim to be concerned about human rights would even notice.)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

"But there are NO atrocities here. just look the other way and ignore the bodies.

( This started Friday, before I left work- and I waited to see if those who claim to be concerned about human rights would even notice.)"


I was composing a respnse n my head as I read your first post, but then you posted again and I realized that you don't give a shit about those dead people, you were only posting the news so that you culd prove an unrelated point.


Nonetheless, I will proceed with my original thought which was that Russia, having previously been the leading power of 'the eastern bloc' has very much become a western country in both style and substance.

I have been payng some attention to the unfolding crisis in Kyrgyzstan and have pondered what role the USA has played in it.

It seems that there are those who want the Yankees out, and those who want them to stay.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

And guess what - those who want them out are pretty angry and violence is flaring up.

The Americans must wear fiery boots.

Everywhere they get a foothold seems to go up in flames.


In addition, in the old days, the Russians were masters of the Eastern Bloc.

Nowadays they are very much a western power, in style, substance and allegiance.

They demonize the same enemies as us (moslems) with our support, but when they come up against enemies we like (Georgians) they are put in their place in no uncertain terms.

I have a funny feeling Brucie that if we tookj a close look at the crisis in Kyrgyzstan we would find that the best solution would be for the Americans to fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:12 AM

Loxie,

"I realized that you don't give a shit about those dead people, you were only posting the news so that you culd prove an unrelated point."

1. the point is related - in fact, it is the primary cause of this thread.

2. YOU don't know what I give, about this or any other topic- that would require you to discuss things, rather thanmake pronouncements of other's thoughts. I was unable to post on Friday, because I was at work and there were other priorities. When I looked this morning, I saw NOTHING on Mudcat about it ( expecting at least a statement it was all the US's fault.

As I said, those here that think 9 dead ( by Israelis ) are an atrocity don't even notice 100- 200 dead when they are killed by non-Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

Afghan schoolgirls hospitalized for possible poisoningBy the CNN Wire Staff
June 13, 2010 7:09 a.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
60 schoolgirls aged 9-14 suffer apparent poison attack
Most suffered minor reactions
Incident is third suspected poisoning of girls in a week
Taliban banned girls from school when they ruled Afghanistan

Kabul, Afghanistan -- About 60 schoolgirls in Afghanistan's Balkh province appear to have been poisoned and required hospitalization, the Ministry of Health said Sunday.

The victims ranged in age from 9 to 14. Most suffered minor reactions, ministry spokesman Sakhi Kargan told CNN.

It's at least the third suspected poisoning of girls attending schools in Afghanistan this week.

Nearly 90 people were poisoned in attacks on three schools in April. There have been no known deaths to date in any of the attacks.

The Taliban banned girls from going to school when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.

Since girls' schools began reopening after the Taliban were overthrown, facilities, female students and teachers have been the victims of attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:18 AM

Baghdad blast, gunfire kill 15By the CNN Wire Staff
June 13, 2010 11:30 a.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: 15 killed, 45 wounded in Baghdad blast, ensuing gunfire
Blast outside of country's central bank
Clashes ongoing between security forces and bank robbers
Power generator for bank caught fire

(CNN) -- At least 15 people were killed and 45 others wounded in a bombing and gunfire near Iraq's central bank in the capital on Sunday, according to the Interior Ministry.

After the initial blast, clashes broke out between security forces and armed men trying to rob the bank, the official said.

There were conflicting reports about what the blast was, which hit at around 3 p.m. (8 a.m. ET). One Interior Ministry official said at least three roadside bombs exploded outside the bank, while another official said it was a suicide bomber. The spokesman for the Baghdad military command, Maj. Gen. Qassi, al-Moussawi, told state television that it was one roadside bomb.

The casualties figures offered by the Interior Ministry only include civilians and security forces.

The power generator for the bank caught fire and the burning fuel caused a large black plume of smoke seen over the capital, the first Interior Ministry official said.The bank is located in central Baghdad's Rasheed street.

The bombing comes amid political uncertainty, a day before Iraq's parliament is set to convene for it's first session three months after national elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

"June 11th, 2010
08:28 AM ET

Permalink 9 killed as bus hits mine

An explosion in southern Afghanistan killed nine civilians and wounded eight others Friday, officials said. The victims were traveling in a mini bus on the Kandahar-Herat highway when the vehicle was struck by a road mine, said Kandahar governor's spokesman Zalmai Ayoubi. The victims comprised of four women, three children and two men, Ayoubi said."



And they didn't even have any steel bars or kitchen knives!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:21 AM

hey Loxie,

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM

Last Wednesday: (reported Thursday)

" Wedding attack was carried out by suicide bomber

A bombing at a wedding ceremony in Afghanistan's Kandahar province was carried out by a suicide bomber wearing an explosives-laden vest, the interior ministry said Thursday.

The explosion Wednesday in the village of Nagaan killed 40 people and wounded 74 others, the interior ministry said.

The Taliban said it was not responsible for the attack.

The International Security Assistance Force confirmed the bombing but did not provide a casualty count.

"This ruthless violence brought to the Afghan people at what should have been a time for celebration demonstrates the Taliban's sickening and indiscriminate tactics to try to intimidate the citizens of Afghanistan," said Lt. Gen. Nick Parker, Deputy Commander, International Security Assistance Force on Thursday.

The village is about 30 kilometers (19 miles) from the city of Kandahar.

The explosion came during the wedding dinner, between 9:30 and 10 p.m., striking the area where the men and boys were dining separately from the women.

All the casualties were men or boys, village officials said."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM

Srebrenica massacre: Close to 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were believed massacred.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1187111.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM

The increasing conflict in Kyrgyzstan has been reported in the news since it errupted

As a background -

"Kyrgyz make up nearly 70% of the population, Uzbeks account for about 15% and are concentrated in the Ferghana Valley in the south
Osh, the country's second city, is home to a large ethnic Uzbek community
There has been tension in the south between the two ethnic groups over land and housing
In 1990, hundreds were killed in Osh in clashes between Kyrgyz and ethnic Uzbeks"

I have not seen any authoritative reports about what sparked the latest unrest but there is no doubt, according to the Red Cross that it is reaching a humanitarian crisis as the three days of violence between Kyrgyz and Uzbek groups in the city of Osh and surrounding areas have left more than 100 people dead and forced hundreds of thousands to flee into neighbouring Uzbekistan to escape the fighting, according to media reports

The EU's crisis response commissioner Kristalina Georgieva said over the weekend "We have to be ready to react to the humanitarian situation that may arise,"
However, the limited legitimacy of the current interim government is also complicating matters, and may make it harder for the EU to provide medium-to-long-term help, said another EU employee.

Kyrgyzstan's President Kurmanbek Bakiyev was ousted in April and now lives in Belarus where he fled with his family after violent clashes between government forces and protesters on 7 April.

He has denied interim government accusations that he is involved in the unrest in order to derail a 27 June constitutional referendum and elections scheduled for October

Washington uses the base about 300km (190 miles) from Osh for US operations in Afghanistan.

Some eye witness reports

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Little Hawk writes: "As for Israel, Israel is totally able to defend itself. That has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt. They are not the victim in the Middle East, they are the one holding a whip and a club in their hands. They have at least a couple of hundred nuclear weapons, and they also have conventional military superiority over all their neighbours in that region."

I used to think something like that years ago. I'm not sure today. If there won't be any agreement, in the long term I think Israel's existence can't be taken for granted. If there'll ever be an agreement, Israel will have to retreat from a number of its colonies and to reintroduce the land for peace bargain. Difficult, but not impossible. I wonder whether Israel's counterpart would accept the two states solution in the right terms T. L. Friedman described it in an article on The New York Times some years ago (that I've lost and would like to find out), when he wrote something like that: one state each, not one and a half. It means, not Israel plus the colonies, nor Palestina plus the Palestinian refugees in Israel instead in the Palestinian state. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank, Gaza etc) united with Jordan: it could be interesting for both Jordan and the Palestinians. Anyway, these are only opinions and wishes. The question is whether the land for peace bargain and the mutual recognition will ever be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM

Bruce

The founder of this thread, Bobad, created this thread to make a point.

He posted atrocities to this thread, not because any of them were things that he found shocking, but because they were convenient as vehicles by which he could make his point.

You now appear to be doing the same thing.


If you were so upset about the killings in Kyrgystan that you felt we should discuss them, you waould have started a thread on that subject so they could actually be discussed.

In reality, you have buried this report in a thread so full of video clips and stories that noone could possibly know what event to devote their attention to.

In addition, you have not then followed through on the discussion you allege you want to discuss.

Instead, you have moved straight on to the next story and left those 100-200 dead behind - forgotten and irrelevant to your life.

You only posted it in response to Bobads insinuation that the mudcat must be full of anti-semites or they would not devote so much attention to American, British and Israeli human rights abuses.

That is the thinly veiled subtext of this thread.

To pretend that this thread is any more than a cheap stunt is rubbish.


Try responding to my earlier posts in this thread.

Its a THREAD remember?

are you able to engage in discussion?

then try.

Go back to an eaarlier post and engage with it.

to make sure you have an understanding of context, start with the first one and go through them one at a time.

Then try to engage honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

"If you were so upset about the killings in Kyrgystan that you felt we should discuss them, you waould have started a thread on that subject so they could actually be discussed."

Check with Joe Offer about openingthreads on every atrocity- I think he might have a problem with that many new ones, which could be in here.



Quote ( which you ignored) is from the original post that started this thread:

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise."




I fail to see any posts that would weaken his premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM

"I think he might have a problem with that many new ones, which could be in here."

Why not start a thread on ONE subject that you find interesting and think important.

Starting a new thread for each of the links rovided in this thread would amount to the same thing as lumping them all in here.

It would be impossible to devote any meaningfull attention to all those subhects at the same time.

However, if there is something happening somewhere that you find relevant to you andd that upsets you and you want to discuss it, go ahead.



Bruce.

Bobads insinuation, and the premiss of this thread, is this.

1. If you don't post atrocities to this thread, but do post responses to the Israel thread, then that makes you an antii semite as you are therefore only interested in Bashing Israel.

2. Equally, if you can't post to this thread without refering to Israel then that makes you an anti semite.

3. if you don't express the same indignation and horror about the atrocities posted in this thread as you do in the Israel thread, then it can only be because you hate Israel.


Bruce - surely you can see through this.


The whole thread is set up with a bias from moment one.

1. It tries to blackmail catters into agreeing with Bobad, otherwise they label themselves anti semites.

2. It mentions Israel explicitly, yet bans contributors from commenting on that, whch is a mendacious challenge.

3. It is deliberately judged to provoke - not just by implying a right to censor, control and judge what people say and post, but by beginning with a link to a deliberately controversial video - so controversial that within half an hour of Bobad posting the link, youtube had banned it for terms of violation abuse.

So much for his impartial posturing.

Its like a sleazy guy saying to a girl "if you don't sleep with me it means you don't love me"

It's cheap playground emotional blackmail and Bobad has tarred his reputation badly by posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

Lox,

And labeling something as an atrocity , while ignoring far more deaths as not worth discussing, seem to me a bit biased as well.

Have you ever looked at the number of PALESTINIANS killed by Egypt, or Jordan in the not-so-distant past? Yet there were no threads- ONBLY Israel, AT WAR WITH THE PALESTINIANS, is held to account.

I have put forward the idea that Israel should treat Palestinians JUST as Arab nations treat EITHER Jews or Palestinians- but I have never seen any agreement with that- since it would up the killing by several orders of magnitude over the present amount ( which, IMHO, is too many).

As for the embargo,explosives can be made from gelatin, or margerine, and piano wire is a favorite weapon for killing.

IF the need for humanitarian supplies was real, why do the Palestinians keep smuggling in WEAPONS ( justifying the embargo) through those tunnels, instead of food or medicines? I guess you think Palestinians are really stupid- I think they know exactly what they want to bring in, and the blockade is Israel's only way to even slow it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"John, this thread is not about Israel. It's supposed to be about everyone except Israel." CarolC

Dear CarolC--I suggest you read the post from Greg F. which immediately preceded mine, and several others before that, and a couple afterward. I accept your apology. Now maybe you'd actually like to respond directly to the information provided in Mr. Bard's article...or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

What is the defining factor that makes a crime an atrocity?

Is it the number of dead?

What is that critical number?

There is no answer to that question.

Because it is not the number that matters.

It is the crime that matters.

The crime in this case is the murder of innocent civilians.

In this case compounded by apparent cover up and slander.

PS in democratic society we say people are innocent until proven guilty.

So unless you have proof of the guilt of the people who died, (once you have established their crime) then they qualify as being innocent victims of murder.

PPS please don't excuse our crimes by pointing at other peoples.

And yes BB - as Carol points out, unless we protest these actions, we give tacit consent to our governments for committing them.

So they are OUR crimes - you and me both!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

"PS in democratic society we say people are innocent until proven guilty."

Unless, of course, the person is Israeli- look at the guilt assigned by some based on less than valid evidence- I do NOT say that there should not be an investigation- BUT the entire matter has been one of "First the verdict, THEN the trial." against the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated.

From http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/SNAA-7ZX5AN?OpenDocument

"An Uzbek who gave his first name as Sherzod, from the city of Namangan, said confrontations over livestock grazing rights were common in border areas.

"The thing is that there's a large amount of unused pastureland in Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbeks have a lot of livestock," he explained.

In Soviet times, the administrative boundaries between republics did not matter much, and since then, farmers have found it hard to adjust. Uzbeks still think they can go into Kyrgyz territory and graze their animals as they always did. To water their livestock, said Sherzod, they continue to use "streams that have been used in common for centuries", wherever they lie.

According to Odiljon, a resident of Andijan region, things have got worse over the last four or five years, with Kyrgyz border guards growing increasingly intolerant of Uzbek-owned livestock straying over the border.

"It didn't use to be like that," he said. "The Kyrgyz were OK about Uzbeks who grazed their animals on their territory."

There is also tension over Kyrgyz plans for damming waterays for hydroelectric projects:

"One of the pressure points in Kyrgyz-Uzbek relations is the use of water for energy production. Uzbekistan opposes Kyrgyz plans to build hydroelectric plants, fearing that new dams will reduce the flow of water down the Syr Darya waterway to its own agricultural sector."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

Sorry bruce, but you have jumped a step.

Israel executed at least 9 people on the 31st of May.

It has refused a trial by independant enquiry, and it has produced fake evidence to frame those who were killed.

A case of shoot first and fake evidence later.

This is a cause of justifiable outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

I see Bobad ...

... so the violent overthrow of the US supported government a few months back is just a coincidence ...

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

Dunno Lox, this information came from IWPR, Institute For War And Peace Reporting, why don't you ask them.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

"In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated."

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I read that statement to mean that you were interested in finding out the root of the problem.

Clearly you are more interested in providing one shallow link and then ignoring the "root" of the problem that you claim to wish to find so as to score a cheap rhetorical point.

No change there then ...

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:08 PM

John & Roberto, please take note:

theocracy, n: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials regarded as divinely guided.
Webster's new Collegiate Dictionary

So, about the Chosen People, you were saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

Wow... things really are bad in Afghanistan right now. Maybe we should send our military in there to clean up the situation...

Oh wait! We already did! And we're still there!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

Lox, I predict in which parts of the world the US or Israel is going to either start, or increase the use of force, or their meddling, by which parts of the world or which groups of people beardedbruce is complaining about on any given day. If bb is complaining about it, I can almost always count on there being some agenda on the part of the US or Israel that is not in the best interests of the people in those places, and I brace myself for the inevitable humanitarian crisis that ensues.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Nice try, Mr. Greg F., but that definition doesn't come close to describing the governance of Israel...so no cigar. Re-read the Bard essay I posted last night.

As to your gratuitous use of the term Chosen People, it would be interesting to read your concept of what that means. I'll bet $$$ to donuts it will not even be close to the Jewish concept of Chosen People.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:50 PM

"To test this premise

That's what this thread is about. It's a rhetorical stunt to test a premise -- it's not an honest discussion of atrocities and the west's response to them. The OP says it all. "I don't give a F about the atrocities, I just want to use them to beat you about the head with your support for the Palestinian's cause."

And labeling something as an atrocity , while ignoring far more deaths as not worth discussing, seem to me a bit biased as well.

How dare we not post exactly as many pixels about every single one of the world's atrocities as we do about Israel? That's a bit ... um ... stupid.

IF the need for humanitarian supplies was real, why do the Palestinians keep smuggling in WEAPONS

You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the Palestinians, and their government. I suppose it's because you want to justify Israel. See? That's the level of logic on this thread. You probably thought it was a stupid conclusion for me to make (your just wanting to justify Israel), and it is. The same going the other way, mutatis mutandis.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

Dear CarolC--I suggest you read the post from Greg F. which immediately preceded mine, and several others before that, and a couple afterward.

Ok. Point taken.


Now maybe you'd actually like to respond directly to the information provided in Mr. Bard's article...or not.

Ok. Since I have your permission to discuss Israel in this thread (I'm sure bobad won't mind since it's you wanting to discuss it), I don't really have an opinion about whether or not Israel is a theocracy. I think there are some legitimate arguments on both sides of that debate. Whether or not it should be a "Jewish state", I do have an opinion about. In order for Israel to be a Jewish state, it has to have a permanent majority, which it cannot do without practicing ethnic cleansing, and it cannot really be said to be a country of all of its people. So I cannot support that, because it privileges one group of people over all other groups. That's supremacism, and I do not support supremacism.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

"In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated."

This simplistic statement appears to ignore the political situation within Kyrgyzstan itself

In April it was reported that 'Thousands have taken to the streets as violent revolts against the Bakiyev regime swept the nation.

The violence follows rising tensions between Mr Bakiyev and opponents who accuse him of stifling independent media and of fostering a culture of corruption'

CNN reported that
'The unrest in Kyrgyzstan could complicate U.S. efforts in Afghanistan, according to some reports'

"The instability highlights both Kyrgyzstan's vital role for the U.S. war in Afghanistan and the compromises both Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama have made to deal with an increasingly unsavory regime," wrote Dan Murphy of the Christian Science Monitor

Deirdre Tynan and Kadyr Toktogulov of the Wall Street Journal commented
"The U.S. military base outside the Kyrgyz capital is vital to the expanding American war effort in Afghanistan.
Most of the U.S. troops deploying to Afghanistan first pass through Manas, which also handles the majority of the American fuel, food and ammunition shipments to the war zone."


Clifford Levy of the New York Times said:
"The upheaval raised questions about the future of an important American air base that operates in Kyrgyzstan in support of the NATO mission in nearby Afghanistan. American officials said that as of Wednesday evening the base was functioning normally.

"It also posed a potential embarrassment for the Obama administration, which angered the Kyrgyz opposition last summer by courting Kyrgyzstan President Kurmanbek Bakiyev in an ultimately successful attempt to reverse his decision to close the base"


The south of the ex-Soviet republic used to be the stronghold of the deposed president who fled to Belarus after he was toppled in political upheaval last month in which at least 85 people were killed

In disturbances last month Reuters reported that
'A top official in Kyrgyzstan's interim government said on Friday that ousted leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev was behind the seizure of government buildings by crowds in the south.' in a coup attempt

Interim authorities accuse his supporters of trying to foment unrest to undermine their control and derail the upcoming referendum and parliamentary election.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

that definition doesn't come close to describing the governance of Israel

How so? Certainly nothing in the Bard essay belies the notion?


By the way- makes you think I'm not Jewish?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

"Confusion surrounds the immediate cause of the clashes, but they appeared to escalate out of a fight between two groups involving a small number of people overnight on June 10-11."

"Political scientist Mars Sariev, too, believes there could be more than one factor at work. On the one hand, it is clearly to the advantage of Bakiev loyalists if the interim government faces yet more unrest and loses credibility in the process."

"But there are also powerful local forces involved in organised crime, so while the clashes have been portrayed as ethnic, they may actually been sparked by a power-struggle over illicit business including the drug-trafficking. Osh is an important transit point for Afghan heroin smuggled northwards to Russia and the rest of Europe."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

"This simplistic statement appears to ignore the political situation within Kyrgyzstan itself"

I'll pass your message on.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

"I'll pass your message on."

Bobad,

At the start of this thread you stated:

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel SO THAT THEY CAN BE DISCUSSED,
ANALYSED AND SUBJECTED TO OUR COLLECTIVE RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION."


Okay ....

... so why aren't you discussing it?



... Bearded Bruce, remind me of that premise again?


I think Bobads mendacity is well illustrated by this point, and his insinuations about those of us, such as EmmaB, who he claims are fixated on one issue, are well and truly shot to bits.


In fact it would appear that this thread is a single issue thread, the focus is Israel, it is that way because Bobad made it that way and he is utterly disinterested in any kind of discussion of any of the subjects that have arisen.


I'm starting to get a very clear picture now.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:13 PM

Thought I aught to say, if you post to this thread more than three times it totally proves that you are a Spazzer, and I know that's factually true because Sharon with the big tits who got off with Phil with the funny hair on Sunday, said she's going to get you after school unless you give her your chip money. Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

"By the way- [what, implied] makes you think I'm not Jewish?" Greg F.

Is that what I think?   Frankly, I hadn't thought one way or the other about it, and it makes no difference to me in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

Horror, degradation, disbelief...! I haven't watched any of the posted videos to be honest, but I think I understand the premise of the origional post. I really don't care to watch it. I don't want to get to the point where I consider an atrocity, as just another atrocity.
Are they just different cultures, wearing different uniforms, living in different times, committing the same thing for the same reasons? I don't think so! Lots of reasons over the years, and I see no reason to list them, it seems they're well documented.
Custer and his men were killed in one of the worst American military disasters ever. Would you consider that an atrocity by the combined forces of the Sioux and Cheyenne Indians? Maybe just a little bit of payback? Or were they just defending their village and Custer fucked up?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

Actually, there 3, 'twas Custer that attacked the Sioux & Cheyenne encampment & got somethiong he hadn't bargained for.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I would condemn the crusades, and I would condemn the killing at the behest of the roman catholic church over 10 million "heretics" in the middle ages. I fail to see why today religion is so often thought of as benevolent.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

"Or were they just defending their village and Custer fucked up?"

I'm well aware of who attacked who first!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM

Although it seems increasingly unlikely that the poster who brought up the issue of the rapidly escalating crisis in Kyrgyzstan has any genuine concern for the plight of the 100,000 refugees (many massing on the now closed border) or the dead, (possibly much higher than the official figures) or the actual causes of this dispute; latest reports have strengthened suspicions that the violence was deliberately ignited to undermine the interim government.

According to AP
"Rupert Colville, spokesman for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters in Geneva there was evidence the violence was coordinated and began with five simultaneous attacks in Osh by men wearing ski masks. U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay also said the fighting "appears to be orchestrated, targeted and well-planned" and urged authorities to act before it spread further.

Bakiyev's younger son, Maxim, was arrested Monday in Britain, Kyrgyz security chief Kenishbek Duishebayev said. Prosecutors allege that companies he owned avoided almost $80 million in taxes on aviation fuel sold to suppliers of the U.S. air base near the capital of Bishkek.
Bakiyev's regime faced widespread allegations of corruption"

The UK press reports that -
"Maxim, son of ex-Kyrgyz president Kurmanbek Bakiyev, was arrested by UK Border Agency officials on Sunday minutes after he landed in a private jet at a small airport near Farnborough in Hampshire.

Bakiyev Jr was a key figure in the ousted regime, and had been holding talks with the Obama administration in Washington when mass street protests overthrew his father's government on 7 April.

Bakiyev Jr was in charge of the economics and investment portfolio. Kyrgyzstan's new interim government accuses him of stealing millions from state coffers.
Today, Almazbek Atambayev, an official in the new administration, said he had funded the unrest in the south of the country, and was guilty of worldwide money laundering.
Edil Baisalov, the leader of the newly formed Aikol El party and the provisional government's former chief of staff, called on the British authorities to keep Maxim Bakiyev in custody.


The AP reporter continues….
At a Nariman hospital, dozens of wounded Uzbeks lay in corridors and broken beds. Many at the hospital, which was out of medical supplies for a sixth day, claim the rampages had been premeditated.
"Well-armed people who were obviously well prepared for this conflict were shooting at us," said Teymurat Yuldashev, 26, who had bullet wounds in his arm and chest of different caliber. "They were organized, with weapons, militants and snipers. They simply destroyed us."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

Red Cross: 'several hundred' dead in Kyrgyz unrest
            
2 hrs 24 mins ago

GENEVA – The Red Cross says several hundred people have been killed in the Central Asian nation of Kyrgyzstan since rioting began last Thursday.

The International Committee of the Red Cross says it has no precise death figures, but spokesman Christian Cardon says "we are talking about several hundreds" of people killed.

The southern part of the impoverished nation has been convulsed by days of rioting targeting minority Uzbeks, which has left the country's second-largest city, Osh, in ruins and sent tens of thousands of Uzbeks fleeing toward the border with Uzbekistan.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

"Although it seems increasingly unlikely that the poster who brought up the issue of the rapidly escalating crisis in Kyrgyzstan has any genuine concern for the plight of the 100,000 refugees"

When the thread becomes hijacked by those whose main interest seems to be in making personal attacks on others I disengage myself. The hate fest should confine itself to one thread at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Let me see... the minority group, who supported the president persuaded by the US to let the US use bases in the country are being killed by the majority group- and CarolC says it is the US causing this?

I am not sure I understand this "logic"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

I'm still trying to sort out what's going on, beardedbruce. I'm having difficulty sorting out the different threads. But it certainly looks like the presence of the US military base is part of the problem.

And keep in mind I said, "most", not "all" of the problems in the world. I accept that there are some problems that are not caused by the US or Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM

My first impulse, just based on what I know about resource wars, and about the resources of that region, is that this is probably a proxy war being fought by larger powers over resources. I have no evidence to back that up other than what I have said here, but I will not be at all surprised if it turns out to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM

MY opinion, for what it is worth ( as expressed in previous threads on Darfur, Gypsies, Kurds, Armenians, Tutsis, Cambodians, and others) is that the biggest regret the US will have in the future will be tha LACK of action that we have taken in the face of genocide- we wring our hands, and wait until it is over to do anything.

IF the US is the present Imperial Power, we have a responsibility to step in and STOP them, not wait and bury the dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:08 PM

"Let me see... the minority group, who supported the president persuaded by the US to let the US use bases in the country are being killed by the majority group- and CarolC says it is the US causing this?"

I'm sure I don't understand this atall !

A probably corrupt president was ousted by 'popular protest' in April in a country with an ethnic mix of approximately 69% Kyrgyz, a Turkic people, and 14.5% Uzbeks mainly living in the south - the two groups are roughly equal in the Osh and Jalalabad regions.


The Uzbeks were NOT supporters of the Bakiyev regime although the south of the country was the main power base of former president Kurmanbek Bakiyev, deposed by a popular revolt and where supporters of Bakiyev, now in exile, briefly seized government buildings in the south on May 13, defying Otunbayeva's central authorities in Bishkek


Kadyrzhan Batyrov, head of the Uzbek community in Jalalabad said after the president had fled

"I know one thing: that Bakiyev and his brothers want to gather their supporters and stage a rebellion so that there is a split between north and south. He will not succeed,"


Although there is a previous history of ethnic unrest in the country,
the leader of the interim government, Otunbayeva, has accused supporters of Bakiyev -- like her, an ethnic Kyrgyz -- of stoking the current violence to disrupt her government's plans to hold a national referendum on June 27 to vote on changes to the constitution.

The neighbouring Uzbek Foreign Ministry expressed "great concern" about the events in Osh, saying there were "reasons to conclude that such events are organized, managed and provocational."

The current administration also claim the attacks on the Uzbeks were orchestrated and funded by the ex president and/or his son, currently under arreat in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM

So, both the pro and anti -US factions are of the majority Kyrgyz, and are killing the minority Uzbeks because the they don't support the deposed president who agreed to the US remaining???

Is that what CarolC is saying???? I mean, it must be the US's fault, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:22 PM

MY opinion, for what it is worth ( as expressed in previous threads on Darfur, Gypsies, Kurds, Armenians, Tutsis, Cambodians, and others) is that the biggest regret the US will have in the future will be tha LACK of action that we have taken in the face of genocide- we wring our hands, and wait until it is over to do anything.

beardedbruce, Darfur is an example of a genocide for which the US government is equally responsible. We (and Israel) are arming and supporting the rebels who are committing just as many atrocities as the Janjaweed. Our own government and that of Israel are also causing large numbers of people to be killed and displaced in Darfur. This is a classic example of the kind of resource war I am talking about. It is a proxy war between powerful countries over oil. The poor farmers are caught between these competing powers.

The Cambodian genocide is directly the fault of the US government. And keep in mind the fact that the US government had already killed millions of Cambodians even before Pol Pot took power. But I don't suppose you care about those millions of people. Just the ones killed by Pol Pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

So, both the pro and anti -US factions are of the majority Kyrgyz, and are killing the minority Uzbeks because the they don't support the deposed president who agreed to the US remaining???

Is that what CarolC is saying???? I mean, it must be the US's fault, right?

As I said before, I don't know enough yet to say what is going on there. I need more information before I can do that. You can stop putting words in my mouth now.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

"US government had already killed millions of Cambodians even before Pol Pot took power. "

CarolC, have you ever looked at numbers? Please look at the populations of the countries where you declare we killed millions just before Pol Pot killed 2+ million- then tell me who was left to be killed by Pol?

You are making unsubstantiated claims based on what you think- your opinion, in other words- NOT proven fact just because you state it.

"(and Israel) are arming and supporting the rebels who are committing just as many atrocities as the Janjaweed. "




So I can state that since it is proven that Iran is arming Hezboallah and Hamas, and is therefore responsible for the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict???

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:35 PM

IF the US is the present Imperial Power, we have a responsibility to step in and STOP them...

Now THAT's a different take on Imperialism, to be sure.....

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

So I can state that since it is proven that Iran is arming Hezboallah and Hamas, and is therefore responsible for the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict???

It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas. Hamas (which hasn't fired any rockets in a long time) was using home made rockets.

I'll answer the rest later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM


Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Please show me, from sources that represent Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah, documentation that they are being armed by Iran. I have seen representative of all three groups saying that Iran is not arming Hamas or Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

The interim government in Kyrgyzstan had planned a referendum on June 27 to vote on constitutional changes which it says will make Kyrgyzstan more democratic.
If violence in the south continues or spreads, this will be next to impossible for the government to organise.

After the interim government came into power according to a Pentagon official they requested that the subcontractors who supply fuel to the Manas Transit Center pay the 12 percent value added tax (VAT) on fuel shipments.

Under the previous regime U.S.-Kyrgyzstan cooperation agreement, "all Defense Department supplies are exempt from any form of taxation in Kyrgyzstan, to include a VAT tax," the official said.

Although the request was suspended it would be likely to arise again after the proposed June referendum.


In February the Bakiyev regime had confirmed it was shutting the US military facility near its capital, Bishkek. (The Manas airbase, home to 1,000 US army personnel since 2001, is a key staging post for coalition forces fighting in nearby Afghanistan.)
Bakiyev said the US was not paying enough for the base and submitted a draft bill calling for the base to be closed but subsequently signed a new deal with an increased rent

The United States acceded to this sharply higher rent and to minor restrictions on the site; the turnabout was reported as 'a victory for the Obama administration as it seeks to step up operations to quell the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.'


On June 9th, immediately prior to the current apparently orchestrated unrest, it was reported that 'The Kyrgyz interim government plans to nationalize Aalam Services, the main fuel depot at Manas Airport and the adjacent US-owned air base.
By doing so, revenues from the sale of fuel to the Manas Transit Center will flow directly into the state's coffers, the head of the interim government, Roza Otunbayeva, said.

"We will nationalize this company and it will move into state ownership. We will still deliver fuel to the Transit Center [but] all the money will go to the state treasury,"

The former Manas airport head Bakytbek Sydykov was charged with corruption in relation to the sale of Aalam Services to Manas Aerofuels, a company allegedly controlled by Maxim Bakiyev, the son of ousted president Kurmanbek Bakiyev.

Maxim Bakiyev is wanted over suspected corrupt business practices related to fuel supply contracts he handled for the United States airbase in his home country.
Kyrgyzstan officials said he is on an Interpol wanted list and is accused of embezzling part of a 300 million US dollars (£204 million) Russian loan

Ok Bruce - it's not a simple situation - and certainly nor a straightforward ethnic 'atrocity' although the loss of life and disruption of so many thousands of people lives is a humanitarian crisis.

I'm sure I have no idea what the US role in all this is although the airbase does seem to be an integral part of maintaining US troops in Afghanistan and a possible source of contention with the interim goverment whose existence is threatened by these apparently deliberately started riots - not to mention a 'nice little earner' for the previous regime!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

The only consistency I can see in the situation in Kyrgyzstan, from what I have read so far, is that both governments seem to have wanted to restrict what the US government could do in that country. I cannot make any sense of any scenarios people suggest involving any ethnic motive for supporting either government, or for ethnic strife being stimulated by the behavior of either government. This is why I have been having so much difficulty sorting out the threads. The only consistency I can see in this conflict is the support of both governments for restricting the behavior of the US government.

I still need more information, but this seems rather telling to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:59 PM

"When the thread becomes hijacked by those whose main interest seems to be in making personal attacks on others I disengage myself. The hate fest should confine itself to one thread at a time."

What rubbish.

This thread is a blanket personal attack on this who disagree with you.

The whole implication is 'Either you're with me or you're antisemitic'

It isn't about the videos you posted, it is about proving something about your political adversaries.

Your moral high ground has been shot to bits mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:38 AM

Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Do you believe everthing Hamas says? Iran? Hezboallah? Can I sell you a bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

Do you believe everthing Hamas says? Iran? Hezboallah?...

Or the U.S. or Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

That's the truly sad thing about Israel. Fifty years ago, it was simple and clear- the Jews were the victims of the Nazi atrocities, that opened the Europeans' eyes to their own history of oppression of the Jews. Israel was the state in which, supported by their erstwhile oppressors, the Jews would be safe from persecution, and our support would expiate our sins of the past.

Post 1967 history (whoever started it) has shown that the Israeli state is as insensitive to the sufferings of the inconvenient as any other state in history; that it is as partial and tribal in its assessment of human worth as any other state; and it is as dismissive of morality (until found out) as any other state.

The great moral debt owed by Europe to the Jews has been squandered by greedy and stupid politicians, pandering to an uninformed electorate.

In other words, they are just like everybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

In other words, they are just like everybody else.

Only they're better at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

Guardian Israel Obsession Reaches New Heights: Flotilla Stats

http://cifwatch.com/2010/06/13/guardian-israel-obsession-reaches-new-heights-flotilla-stats/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

I looked up CiF Watch - the authors of the above Gaurdian 'watch' page - and got this. Here's a bit of what 'Engage' have to say about CiF Watch, by way of balance:


"CiF Watch is similar to initiatives that have been set up in recent years (Campus Watch, to name one) to malign scholars and writers on Middle East politics whose views fall foul of Zionists and pro-Israel lobbyists. The end result is often intimidation and the stifling of free expression as critics are smeared as antisemites for their views on Israel and Israeli policies.

The Guardian's Comment is Free website is a highly popular website which provides a forum for a wide range of writers including several Muslim ones. There have been numerous attempts made by pro-Israel lobbyists to try and force the removal of these writers."

http://www.iengage.org.uk/component/content/article/499-pro-israel-lobbyists-set-up-cif-watch-

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

And of course Engage is unbiased.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

"Engage is unbiased."

Your statement not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM

Was there a good reason to resurrect this putrescent corpse?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:44 AM

"Was there a good reason to resurrect this putrescent corpse?"

I'm not sure, but following Bobads link led me to something I found interesting regarding issues around Israel, freedom of speech and the media.

I'd be interested to know whether or not the allegation I cited in response to Bobads 'CiF Watch' post that:
"pro-Israel lobbyists" have repeatedly attempted to "force the removal of [Muslim] writers" from the Guardian's 'Comment is Free' website,

is in fact true?