BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:44 AM

"Was there a good reason to resurrect this putrescent corpse?"

I'm not sure, but following Bobads link led me to something I found interesting regarding issues around Israel, freedom of speech and the media.

I'd be interested to know whether or not the allegation I cited in response to Bobads 'CiF Watch' post that:
"pro-Israel lobbyists" have repeatedly attempted to "force the removal of [Muslim] writers" from the Guardian's 'Comment is Free' website,

is in fact true?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM

Was there a good reason to resurrect this putrescent corpse?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

"Engage is unbiased."

Your statement not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

And of course Engage is unbiased.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

I looked up CiF Watch - the authors of the above Gaurdian 'watch' page - and got this. Here's a bit of what 'Engage' have to say about CiF Watch, by way of balance:


"CiF Watch is similar to initiatives that have been set up in recent years (Campus Watch, to name one) to malign scholars and writers on Middle East politics whose views fall foul of Zionists and pro-Israel lobbyists. The end result is often intimidation and the stifling of free expression as critics are smeared as antisemites for their views on Israel and Israeli policies.

The Guardian's Comment is Free website is a highly popular website which provides a forum for a wide range of writers including several Muslim ones. There have been numerous attempts made by pro-Israel lobbyists to try and force the removal of these writers."

http://www.iengage.org.uk/component/content/article/499-pro-israel-lobbyists-set-up-cif-watch-

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

Guardian Israel Obsession Reaches New Heights: Flotilla Stats

http://cifwatch.com/2010/06/13/guardian-israel-obsession-reaches-new-heights-flotilla-stats/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

In other words, they are just like everybody else.

Only they're better at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

That's the truly sad thing about Israel. Fifty years ago, it was simple and clear- the Jews were the victims of the Nazi atrocities, that opened the Europeans' eyes to their own history of oppression of the Jews. Israel was the state in which, supported by their erstwhile oppressors, the Jews would be safe from persecution, and our support would expiate our sins of the past.

Post 1967 history (whoever started it) has shown that the Israeli state is as insensitive to the sufferings of the inconvenient as any other state in history; that it is as partial and tribal in its assessment of human worth as any other state; and it is as dismissive of morality (until found out) as any other state.

The great moral debt owed by Europe to the Jews has been squandered by greedy and stupid politicians, pandering to an uninformed electorate.

In other words, they are just like everybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

Do you believe everthing Hamas says? Iran? Hezboallah?...

Or the U.S. or Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:38 AM

Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Do you believe everthing Hamas says? Iran? Hezboallah? Can I sell you a bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:59 PM

"When the thread becomes hijacked by those whose main interest seems to be in making personal attacks on others I disengage myself. The hate fest should confine itself to one thread at a time."

What rubbish.

This thread is a blanket personal attack on this who disagree with you.

The whole implication is 'Either you're with me or you're antisemitic'

It isn't about the videos you posted, it is about proving something about your political adversaries.

Your moral high ground has been shot to bits mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

The only consistency I can see in the situation in Kyrgyzstan, from what I have read so far, is that both governments seem to have wanted to restrict what the US government could do in that country. I cannot make any sense of any scenarios people suggest involving any ethnic motive for supporting either government, or for ethnic strife being stimulated by the behavior of either government. This is why I have been having so much difficulty sorting out the threads. The only consistency I can see in this conflict is the support of both governments for restricting the behavior of the US government.

I still need more information, but this seems rather telling to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

The interim government in Kyrgyzstan had planned a referendum on June 27 to vote on constitutional changes which it says will make Kyrgyzstan more democratic.
If violence in the south continues or spreads, this will be next to impossible for the government to organise.

After the interim government came into power according to a Pentagon official they requested that the subcontractors who supply fuel to the Manas Transit Center pay the 12 percent value added tax (VAT) on fuel shipments.

Under the previous regime U.S.-Kyrgyzstan cooperation agreement, "all Defense Department supplies are exempt from any form of taxation in Kyrgyzstan, to include a VAT tax," the official said.

Although the request was suspended it would be likely to arise again after the proposed June referendum.


In February the Bakiyev regime had confirmed it was shutting the US military facility near its capital, Bishkek. (The Manas airbase, home to 1,000 US army personnel since 2001, is a key staging post for coalition forces fighting in nearby Afghanistan.)
Bakiyev said the US was not paying enough for the base and submitted a draft bill calling for the base to be closed but subsequently signed a new deal with an increased rent

The United States acceded to this sharply higher rent and to minor restrictions on the site; the turnabout was reported as 'a victory for the Obama administration as it seeks to step up operations to quell the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.'


On June 9th, immediately prior to the current apparently orchestrated unrest, it was reported that 'The Kyrgyz interim government plans to nationalize Aalam Services, the main fuel depot at Manas Airport and the adjacent US-owned air base.
By doing so, revenues from the sale of fuel to the Manas Transit Center will flow directly into the state's coffers, the head of the interim government, Roza Otunbayeva, said.

"We will nationalize this company and it will move into state ownership. We will still deliver fuel to the Transit Center [but] all the money will go to the state treasury,"

The former Manas airport head Bakytbek Sydykov was charged with corruption in relation to the sale of Aalam Services to Manas Aerofuels, a company allegedly controlled by Maxim Bakiyev, the son of ousted president Kurmanbek Bakiyev.

Maxim Bakiyev is wanted over suspected corrupt business practices related to fuel supply contracts he handled for the United States airbase in his home country.
Kyrgyzstan officials said he is on an Interpol wanted list and is accused of embezzling part of a 300 million US dollars (£204 million) Russian loan

Ok Bruce - it's not a simple situation - and certainly nor a straightforward ethnic 'atrocity' although the loss of life and disruption of so many thousands of people lives is a humanitarian crisis.

I'm sure I have no idea what the US role in all this is although the airbase does seem to be an integral part of maintaining US troops in Afghanistan and a possible source of contention with the interim goverment whose existence is threatened by these apparently deliberately started riots - not to mention a 'nice little earner' for the previous regime!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM


Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Please show me, from sources that represent Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah, documentation that they are being armed by Iran. I have seen representative of all three groups saying that Iran is not arming Hamas or Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

Who, besides you, says "It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas"

Iran says so
Hamas says so
Hezboallah says so


Are you saying they are a bunch of liars???

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

So I can state that since it is proven that Iran is arming Hezboallah and Hamas, and is therefore responsible for the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict???

It is not proven that Iran is arming Hezbollah and Hamas. Hamas (which hasn't fired any rockets in a long time) was using home made rockets.

I'll answer the rest later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:35 PM

IF the US is the present Imperial Power, we have a responsibility to step in and STOP them...

Now THAT's a different take on Imperialism, to be sure.....

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

"US government had already killed millions of Cambodians even before Pol Pot took power. "

CarolC, have you ever looked at numbers? Please look at the populations of the countries where you declare we killed millions just before Pol Pot killed 2+ million- then tell me who was left to be killed by Pol?

You are making unsubstantiated claims based on what you think- your opinion, in other words- NOT proven fact just because you state it.

"(and Israel) are arming and supporting the rebels who are committing just as many atrocities as the Janjaweed. "




So I can state that since it is proven that Iran is arming Hezboallah and Hamas, and is therefore responsible for the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict???

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

So, both the pro and anti -US factions are of the majority Kyrgyz, and are killing the minority Uzbeks because the they don't support the deposed president who agreed to the US remaining???

Is that what CarolC is saying???? I mean, it must be the US's fault, right?

As I said before, I don't know enough yet to say what is going on there. I need more information before I can do that. You can stop putting words in my mouth now.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:22 PM

MY opinion, for what it is worth ( as expressed in previous threads on Darfur, Gypsies, Kurds, Armenians, Tutsis, Cambodians, and others) is that the biggest regret the US will have in the future will be tha LACK of action that we have taken in the face of genocide- we wring our hands, and wait until it is over to do anything.

beardedbruce, Darfur is an example of a genocide for which the US government is equally responsible. We (and Israel) are arming and supporting the rebels who are committing just as many atrocities as the Janjaweed. Our own government and that of Israel are also causing large numbers of people to be killed and displaced in Darfur. This is a classic example of the kind of resource war I am talking about. It is a proxy war between powerful countries over oil. The poor farmers are caught between these competing powers.

The Cambodian genocide is directly the fault of the US government. And keep in mind the fact that the US government had already killed millions of Cambodians even before Pol Pot took power. But I don't suppose you care about those millions of people. Just the ones killed by Pol Pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM

So, both the pro and anti -US factions are of the majority Kyrgyz, and are killing the minority Uzbeks because the they don't support the deposed president who agreed to the US remaining???

Is that what CarolC is saying???? I mean, it must be the US's fault, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:08 PM

"Let me see... the minority group, who supported the president persuaded by the US to let the US use bases in the country are being killed by the majority group- and CarolC says it is the US causing this?"

I'm sure I don't understand this atall !

A probably corrupt president was ousted by 'popular protest' in April in a country with an ethnic mix of approximately 69% Kyrgyz, a Turkic people, and 14.5% Uzbeks mainly living in the south - the two groups are roughly equal in the Osh and Jalalabad regions.


The Uzbeks were NOT supporters of the Bakiyev regime although the south of the country was the main power base of former president Kurmanbek Bakiyev, deposed by a popular revolt and where supporters of Bakiyev, now in exile, briefly seized government buildings in the south on May 13, defying Otunbayeva's central authorities in Bishkek


Kadyrzhan Batyrov, head of the Uzbek community in Jalalabad said after the president had fled

"I know one thing: that Bakiyev and his brothers want to gather their supporters and stage a rebellion so that there is a split between north and south. He will not succeed,"


Although there is a previous history of ethnic unrest in the country,
the leader of the interim government, Otunbayeva, has accused supporters of Bakiyev -- like her, an ethnic Kyrgyz -- of stoking the current violence to disrupt her government's plans to hold a national referendum on June 27 to vote on changes to the constitution.

The neighbouring Uzbek Foreign Ministry expressed "great concern" about the events in Osh, saying there were "reasons to conclude that such events are organized, managed and provocational."

The current administration also claim the attacks on the Uzbeks were orchestrated and funded by the ex president and/or his son, currently under arreat in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM

MY opinion, for what it is worth ( as expressed in previous threads on Darfur, Gypsies, Kurds, Armenians, Tutsis, Cambodians, and others) is that the biggest regret the US will have in the future will be tha LACK of action that we have taken in the face of genocide- we wring our hands, and wait until it is over to do anything.

IF the US is the present Imperial Power, we have a responsibility to step in and STOP them, not wait and bury the dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM

My first impulse, just based on what I know about resource wars, and about the resources of that region, is that this is probably a proxy war being fought by larger powers over resources. I have no evidence to back that up other than what I have said here, but I will not be at all surprised if it turns out to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

I'm still trying to sort out what's going on, beardedbruce. I'm having difficulty sorting out the different threads. But it certainly looks like the presence of the US military base is part of the problem.

And keep in mind I said, "most", not "all" of the problems in the world. I accept that there are some problems that are not caused by the US or Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Let me see... the minority group, who supported the president persuaded by the US to let the US use bases in the country are being killed by the majority group- and CarolC says it is the US causing this?

I am not sure I understand this "logic"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

"Although it seems increasingly unlikely that the poster who brought up the issue of the rapidly escalating crisis in Kyrgyzstan has any genuine concern for the plight of the 100,000 refugees"

When the thread becomes hijacked by those whose main interest seems to be in making personal attacks on others I disengage myself. The hate fest should confine itself to one thread at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

Red Cross: 'several hundred' dead in Kyrgyz unrest
            
2 hrs 24 mins ago

GENEVA – The Red Cross says several hundred people have been killed in the Central Asian nation of Kyrgyzstan since rioting began last Thursday.

The International Committee of the Red Cross says it has no precise death figures, but spokesman Christian Cardon says "we are talking about several hundreds" of people killed.

The southern part of the impoverished nation has been convulsed by days of rioting targeting minority Uzbeks, which has left the country's second-largest city, Osh, in ruins and sent tens of thousands of Uzbeks fleeing toward the border with Uzbekistan.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM

Although it seems increasingly unlikely that the poster who brought up the issue of the rapidly escalating crisis in Kyrgyzstan has any genuine concern for the plight of the 100,000 refugees (many massing on the now closed border) or the dead, (possibly much higher than the official figures) or the actual causes of this dispute; latest reports have strengthened suspicions that the violence was deliberately ignited to undermine the interim government.

According to AP
"Rupert Colville, spokesman for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters in Geneva there was evidence the violence was coordinated and began with five simultaneous attacks in Osh by men wearing ski masks. U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay also said the fighting "appears to be orchestrated, targeted and well-planned" and urged authorities to act before it spread further.

Bakiyev's younger son, Maxim, was arrested Monday in Britain, Kyrgyz security chief Kenishbek Duishebayev said. Prosecutors allege that companies he owned avoided almost $80 million in taxes on aviation fuel sold to suppliers of the U.S. air base near the capital of Bishkek.
Bakiyev's regime faced widespread allegations of corruption"

The UK press reports that -
"Maxim, son of ex-Kyrgyz president Kurmanbek Bakiyev, was arrested by UK Border Agency officials on Sunday minutes after he landed in a private jet at a small airport near Farnborough in Hampshire.

Bakiyev Jr was a key figure in the ousted regime, and had been holding talks with the Obama administration in Washington when mass street protests overthrew his father's government on 7 April.

Bakiyev Jr was in charge of the economics and investment portfolio. Kyrgyzstan's new interim government accuses him of stealing millions from state coffers.
Today, Almazbek Atambayev, an official in the new administration, said he had funded the unrest in the south of the country, and was guilty of worldwide money laundering.
Edil Baisalov, the leader of the newly formed Aikol El party and the provisional government's former chief of staff, called on the British authorities to keep Maxim Bakiyev in custody.


The AP reporter continues….
At a Nariman hospital, dozens of wounded Uzbeks lay in corridors and broken beds. Many at the hospital, which was out of medical supplies for a sixth day, claim the rampages had been premeditated.
"Well-armed people who were obviously well prepared for this conflict were shooting at us," said Teymurat Yuldashev, 26, who had bullet wounds in his arm and chest of different caliber. "They were organized, with weapons, militants and snipers. They simply destroyed us."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

"Or were they just defending their village and Custer fucked up?"

I'm well aware of who attacked who first!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I would condemn the crusades, and I would condemn the killing at the behest of the roman catholic church over 10 million "heretics" in the middle ages. I fail to see why today religion is so often thought of as benevolent.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

Actually, there 3, 'twas Custer that attacked the Sioux & Cheyenne encampment & got somethiong he hadn't bargained for.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

Horror, degradation, disbelief...! I haven't watched any of the posted videos to be honest, but I think I understand the premise of the origional post. I really don't care to watch it. I don't want to get to the point where I consider an atrocity, as just another atrocity.
Are they just different cultures, wearing different uniforms, living in different times, committing the same thing for the same reasons? I don't think so! Lots of reasons over the years, and I see no reason to list them, it seems they're well documented.
Custer and his men were killed in one of the worst American military disasters ever. Would you consider that an atrocity by the combined forces of the Sioux and Cheyenne Indians? Maybe just a little bit of payback? Or were they just defending their village and Custer fucked up?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

"By the way- [what, implied] makes you think I'm not Jewish?" Greg F.

Is that what I think?   Frankly, I hadn't thought one way or the other about it, and it makes no difference to me in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:13 PM

Thought I aught to say, if you post to this thread more than three times it totally proves that you are a Spazzer, and I know that's factually true because Sharon with the big tits who got off with Phil with the funny hair on Sunday, said she's going to get you after school unless you give her your chip money. Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

"I'll pass your message on."

Bobad,

At the start of this thread you stated:

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel SO THAT THEY CAN BE DISCUSSED,
ANALYSED AND SUBJECTED TO OUR COLLECTIVE RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION."


Okay ....

... so why aren't you discussing it?



... Bearded Bruce, remind me of that premise again?


I think Bobads mendacity is well illustrated by this point, and his insinuations about those of us, such as EmmaB, who he claims are fixated on one issue, are well and truly shot to bits.


In fact it would appear that this thread is a single issue thread, the focus is Israel, it is that way because Bobad made it that way and he is utterly disinterested in any kind of discussion of any of the subjects that have arisen.


I'm starting to get a very clear picture now.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

"This simplistic statement appears to ignore the political situation within Kyrgyzstan itself"

I'll pass your message on.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

"Confusion surrounds the immediate cause of the clashes, but they appeared to escalate out of a fight between two groups involving a small number of people overnight on June 10-11."

"Political scientist Mars Sariev, too, believes there could be more than one factor at work. On the one hand, it is clearly to the advantage of Bakiev loyalists if the interim government faces yet more unrest and loses credibility in the process."

"But there are also powerful local forces involved in organised crime, so while the clashes have been portrayed as ethnic, they may actually been sparked by a power-struggle over illicit business including the drug-trafficking. Osh is an important transit point for Afghan heroin smuggled northwards to Russia and the rest of Europe."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

that definition doesn't come close to describing the governance of Israel

How so? Certainly nothing in the Bard essay belies the notion?


By the way- makes you think I'm not Jewish?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

"In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated."

This simplistic statement appears to ignore the political situation within Kyrgyzstan itself

In April it was reported that 'Thousands have taken to the streets as violent revolts against the Bakiyev regime swept the nation.

The violence follows rising tensions between Mr Bakiyev and opponents who accuse him of stifling independent media and of fostering a culture of corruption'

CNN reported that
'The unrest in Kyrgyzstan could complicate U.S. efforts in Afghanistan, according to some reports'

"The instability highlights both Kyrgyzstan's vital role for the U.S. war in Afghanistan and the compromises both Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama have made to deal with an increasingly unsavory regime," wrote Dan Murphy of the Christian Science Monitor

Deirdre Tynan and Kadyr Toktogulov of the Wall Street Journal commented
"The U.S. military base outside the Kyrgyz capital is vital to the expanding American war effort in Afghanistan.
Most of the U.S. troops deploying to Afghanistan first pass through Manas, which also handles the majority of the American fuel, food and ammunition shipments to the war zone."


Clifford Levy of the New York Times said:
"The upheaval raised questions about the future of an important American air base that operates in Kyrgyzstan in support of the NATO mission in nearby Afghanistan. American officials said that as of Wednesday evening the base was functioning normally.

"It also posed a potential embarrassment for the Obama administration, which angered the Kyrgyz opposition last summer by courting Kyrgyzstan President Kurmanbek Bakiyev in an ultimately successful attempt to reverse his decision to close the base"


The south of the ex-Soviet republic used to be the stronghold of the deposed president who fled to Belarus after he was toppled in political upheaval last month in which at least 85 people were killed

In disturbances last month Reuters reported that
'A top official in Kyrgyzstan's interim government said on Friday that ousted leader Kurmanbek Bakiyev was behind the seizure of government buildings by crowds in the south.' in a coup attempt

Interim authorities accuse his supporters of trying to foment unrest to undermine their control and derail the upcoming referendum and parliamentary election.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

Dear CarolC--I suggest you read the post from Greg F. which immediately preceded mine, and several others before that, and a couple afterward.

Ok. Point taken.


Now maybe you'd actually like to respond directly to the information provided in Mr. Bard's article...or not.

Ok. Since I have your permission to discuss Israel in this thread (I'm sure bobad won't mind since it's you wanting to discuss it), I don't really have an opinion about whether or not Israel is a theocracy. I think there are some legitimate arguments on both sides of that debate. Whether or not it should be a "Jewish state", I do have an opinion about. In order for Israel to be a Jewish state, it has to have a permanent majority, which it cannot do without practicing ethnic cleansing, and it cannot really be said to be a country of all of its people. So I cannot support that, because it privileges one group of people over all other groups. That's supremacism, and I do not support supremacism.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:50 PM

"To test this premise

That's what this thread is about. It's a rhetorical stunt to test a premise -- it's not an honest discussion of atrocities and the west's response to them. The OP says it all. "I don't give a F about the atrocities, I just want to use them to beat you about the head with your support for the Palestinian's cause."

And labeling something as an atrocity , while ignoring far more deaths as not worth discussing, seem to me a bit biased as well.

How dare we not post exactly as many pixels about every single one of the world's atrocities as we do about Israel? That's a bit ... um ... stupid.

IF the need for humanitarian supplies was real, why do the Palestinians keep smuggling in WEAPONS

You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the Palestinians, and their government. I suppose it's because you want to justify Israel. See? That's the level of logic on this thread. You probably thought it was a stupid conclusion for me to make (your just wanting to justify Israel), and it is. The same going the other way, mutatis mutandis.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Nice try, Mr. Greg F., but that definition doesn't come close to describing the governance of Israel...so no cigar. Re-read the Bard essay I posted last night.

As to your gratuitous use of the term Chosen People, it would be interesting to read your concept of what that means. I'll bet $$$ to donuts it will not even be close to the Jewish concept of Chosen People.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

Lox, I predict in which parts of the world the US or Israel is going to either start, or increase the use of force, or their meddling, by which parts of the world or which groups of people beardedbruce is complaining about on any given day. If bb is complaining about it, I can almost always count on there being some agenda on the part of the US or Israel that is not in the best interests of the people in those places, and I brace myself for the inevitable humanitarian crisis that ensues.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

Wow... things really are bad in Afghanistan right now. Maybe we should send our military in there to clean up the situation...

Oh wait! We already did! And we're still there!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:08 PM

John & Roberto, please take note:

theocracy, n: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials regarded as divinely guided.
Webster's new Collegiate Dictionary

So, about the Chosen People, you were saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

"In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated."

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I read that statement to mean that you were interested in finding out the root of the problem.

Clearly you are more interested in providing one shallow link and then ignoring the "root" of the problem that you claim to wish to find so as to score a cheap rhetorical point.

No change there then ...

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

Dunno Lox, this information came from IWPR, Institute For War And Peace Reporting, why don't you ask them.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

I see Bobad ...

... so the violent overthrow of the US supported government a few months back is just a coincidence ...

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

Sorry bruce, but you have jumped a step.

Israel executed at least 9 people on the 31st of May.

It has refused a trial by independant enquiry, and it has produced fake evidence to frame those who were killed.

A case of shoot first and fake evidence later.

This is a cause of justifiable outrage.