The Blackleg Miner and FAF.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

How do we know that Lloyd made up the verses? Is it documented anywhere? Or could the song have been, just to give a possibility, composed by a miner who had heard the American song and adapted it.. then sang it to Lloyd? Unless there's some evidence that he actually fabricated it, isn't the assumption that real miners couldn't (or wouldn't) have written a song like that comes across as the paternalistic sort of attitude that blue-pencilled so many collected folk songs. Singing, singing, buttercups and bloody daisies?

Anyway, it's a bloody good song, made up or not, and if the indigenous working class still had that attitude, they'd have strangled Nicky Griffin and his bonzos before the Labour party had tried to copy them. After all, it wasn't the Pakis and coons who destroyed our mines was it? Perhaps nice white Mrs ThatPerson or Nobrains Tebbit had something to do with that.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

..." it lasts that long " ...

does it indeed.

my grandmother was a McDonald, maybe I should go and kill myself a few Campbells.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:55 AM

the assumption that real miners couldn't (or wouldn't) have written a song like that

I don't think that at all. (My grandfather was a miner, for what it's worth.) But we know that Lloyd did a particular kind of job on some old songs - improving rhymes, sharpening political points & generally turning a dull old song into a catchy and memorable one. We also know that he sometimes lied about what he was doing and invented singers who he had supposedly collected his version of the song from.

The Recruited Collier was
...supposedly collected by Lloyd from a named singer
...never found anywhere else in traditional singers' repertoires
...similar to a poem called "Jenny's Complaint", but sharper and punchier
...and was actually adapted by Lloyd from "Jenny's Complaint"

The Blackleg Miner was
...supposedly collected by Lloyd from a named singer
...never found anywhere else in traditional singers' repertoires
...similar to a song called The Yahie Miners, but sharper and punchier

...and?

We don't know for certain that TBM was one of Bert's, but the circumstantial evidence (and absence of evidence) is quite strong.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:56 AM

"We also know that he sometimes lied about what he was doing and invented singers...."
I'm not sure we KNOW any such thing Pip; we SUSPECT that he might have done so, but we have no evidence that he did and it seems a little 'rush to judgement' to be so catergorical.
If someone had presented me with a list of Traveller John Reilly's repertoire (Maid and the Palmer - et al) or Duncan Williamson's magnificent ballads and his enormous collection of traditional stories, thirty odd years ago I might well have echoed your sentiments about these. Now I have come to the conclusion that we know so little of the living tradition that we only KNOW an iceberg's tip of it's quality, content, function, mechanics..... anything really.
In the light of our own ignorance it seems more than a little unfair to be so definite that he 'lied' about anything.
The same accusation was constantly being made about MacColl's father's songs - I confess I was one of the cynics until a contemporary of his, Eddie Frow, told me "William had hundreds of queer old Scots songs and bits of songs"
One thing I do know for certain; the fact that a song has never been "found anywhere else in the traditional singers repertoires" does not mean that it wasn't there - want a list of one-off songs and ballads that have turned up in Ireland over the last half century or so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

"maybe I should go and kill myself a few Campbells. "
What a good idea - can you put Alastair at the top of your list?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:21 AM

In the light of our own ignorance it seems more than a little unfair to be so definite that he 'lied' about anything.

I think we can be pretty sure that he didn't collect The Recruited Collier or Reynardine, despite claiming that he did.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

For the record Pip - Bert's Reynardine is similar to a few verses of it we heard from a couple of elderly farmers here in North Clare - both insisted it was a supernatural song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: brezhnev
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM

Hey, this is turning into an armchair folk killing spree! We've got the FAF wanting everyone to sing about killing scabs, a lament that the indigenous working class is no longer up to strangling the likes of Nick Griffin, incitement to top Alastair Campbell...

Bang, bang!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM

Arriving late to this thread (been away all week)I am pleased to see that SO'P holds Tommy Armstrong in such high regard but I can not understand how he sees the anger expressed in a fine song as "Oakey Strike E

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Start Again.
Arriving late to this thread (been away all week)I am pleased to see that SO'P holds Tommy Armstrong in such high regard but I can not understand how he sees the anger expressed in a fine song as "Oakey Strike Evuctions" more acceptable than that in "Blackleg Miner". Look at a few more Armstrong songs such as "South Medomsley Strike", "Oakey's Keeker" and the original set of words to "The Durham Strike (Lockout)" to see that he didn't exactly preach peace and love to the oppressors either.
Anyway first time I sang "Blackleg Miner" some forty odd years ago I was told I didn't sound angry enough.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 08:08 AM

sedayne say it is not even a proper folk song, his reasoning being its been altered and relocated[ its been folk processed]
Ithought when something had been processed it becam a Folk song
.HardTimes of old england is a song that has been altered and processed, It is considered by many to be part of the folk repertoire

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

but I can not understand how he sees the anger expressed in a fine song as "Oakey Strike Evuctions" more acceptable than that in "Blackleg Miner".

If that anger is genuine working-class vitriol (as it is in Tommy's songs) I've no problem with it; but if it's a cosy folky-fantasy of working-class life then it's a different matter. If Blackleg Miner is genuine then the violence is integral; if not, then it's Political Pornography.

...his reasoning being its been altered and relocated[ its been folk processed] Ithought when something had been processed it becam a Folk song...

Bleedin' hell, Dick - can it really be that easy? Maybe it is after all... I have an especial fondness for Jim Eldon's rewrites & relocations - for example his rewrite of The Tide is High - but I'm sure there are High Priests of the Revival who'll quote chapter & verse as to how this simply cannot be otherwise the whole folk thing becomes meaningless.

Er - hold on a minute...

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

"but if it's a cosy folky-fantasy of working-class life then it's a different matter."
You have no evidence whatever that Blackleg Miner is a "folky-fantasy of working-class life" and what on earth is 'cosy' about it. If Bert took it from The Yahi Miners, as is quite possible with his track record, then it comes with a folk pedigree; if he wrote it (which has never stopped you from including it under 'folk' in the past), he made an excellent job of capturing the bitterness of a strike.
Wherever it came from it has served the revival pretty well since the earliest days of 'Come All You Bold Miners' - therefore, if you are not in the process of disappearing up your own arse, it is a folk song by your own standards (whatever I might think).
You are now in the process of re-writing your own crap definition to suit your personal likes and dislikes and adapting even the re-write as you go along to try to score points.
The fact that you appear to dislike the song doesn't mean squat; it reflects perfectly my own impressions of the atmosphere engendered by a strike. I worked on the Liverpool docks not long after they stopped being casual labour based and the fight for union recognition was at its height, and later when containerisation was introduced, which eventually destroyed shipping on the Mersey altogether, so I saw the effects up close.
God knows, we had enough examples of miner versus miner in the last two strikes to realise to what lengths men will go when their livelihood is threatened. It seems you have painted yourself into a corner - get used to the view.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: brezhnev
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM

Jim, what does that mean - "it has served the revival pretty well"?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

The fact that you appear to dislike the song doesn't mean squat

Not true actually, old man - I like the song a good deal & when I have thrice expressed an opinion it has been positive; thus:

From 25 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM : Mind you I can't fault Blackleg Miner as a piece of Idiomatic Trad - bet he couldn't have passed of Jack Orion so easily (which is probably why he didn't) although I've had arguments regarding its authorship in the past.

From 26 Jun 10 - 03:39 AM : Whilst it manages to convince on every level, it isn't what it claims to be

From 27 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM : though I do concede that The Blackleg Miner is a fine piece of work and have no qualms regards the violence which is pure reportage on one level, and justified warning on the other. As Young Buchan points out - It lasts that long. It's that important.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, what does that mean - "it has served the revival pretty well"?
I've heard it in pretty well every folk club I've been involved with for the last forty-odd years - even the 'trad only' ones, and the ones Bert never set foot in.
"bet he couldn't have passed off...."
and you continue to make definitive (and unqualified) statements as to its origin - but I forgot - that's what you always do, isn't it.
If you have any evidence that the rest of us don't on the origins of the song, let's have it - won't hold my breath.
I hope you're not suggesting 'Jack Orion' to be a fake - it isn't, Lloyd adapted it from Glasgerion; quite skilfully, in my opinion, though I much prefer MacColl's.
Still don't know why anything Lloyd might have written doesn't fit your definition of 'folk' - and I don't suppose I ever shall.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

"It lasts that long. It's that important."
Doesn't it just.
There are still streets in Bethesda, Gwynedd, that no local would live in and incomers who do find that they are cold shouldered. The streets of the Bradwyr (Traitors), those who went back during the strike.

...oh yes...the strike was from November 1900 to June 1903.
look here

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:04 PM

Precisely three people have got it. Precisely three people understand the class war and treachery. Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers. Fucking brilliant.

Even in white collar jobs like mine the need is still there.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

I agree, Richard

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: semiotic
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:14 PM

"Workers by hand and brain"

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

and you continue to make definitive (and unqualified) statements as to its origin - but I forgot - that's what you always do, isn't it.

Pish. A few posts back I was speculating on the possibility of Yahie Miners deriving from Blackleg Miner - a sweet compromise! And you do favour the Lloyd Provenance yourself, do you not?

I hope you're not suggesting 'Jack Orion' to be a fake - it isn't, Lloyd adapted it from Glasgerion; quite skilfully, in my opinion, though I much prefer MacColl's.

Sorry, old man - I've sat through too many renderings of JO to change my mind on it, no matter what it was based on! Just my opinion though - and my preference...

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

Richard, I understand the class war as well as anybody, in fact I understand it to the extent that I know that unions are never going to smash capitalism.

The only way capitalism is going to be smashed is when a majority (globally) of the population understand the true tenets of socialism, and when and if that ever that happens, capitalism will be overthrown.

Capitalism can not be overthrown in one country, in isolation.

It is not going to happen in my lifetime, and not in my children's lifetime, however, so meanwhile I will continue to espouse the ethical values which I absorbed with my mother's milk, and continue to despise the brutality of the sentiments expressed in "The Blackleg Miner".

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

Whatever the provenence of the song, It's a cracking song. The sentiments expressed are totally understandable, it's called human nature! Sadly our current trade unions don't have the same fire in their bellies.

I'ts always gone down well when the 'Hounds' perform it, and we will dedicate it to FAF from now on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F3OvZvUgIU

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:31 AM

Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers.

Steady on, Richard. The Blackleg Miner has absolutely nothing to do with smashing capitalism - it's a celebration of division in the working class, workers fighting other workers. I understand the anger of the song, but the fact is that brutality against scabs isn't always a good tactic - & sometimes it's a very bad tactic. (Sometimes the best tactic is to choke down your completely justifiable anger and use friendly persuasion.)

So I don't think it's appropriate for people who aren't faced with those decisions, and don't feel that anger in their own right, to celebrate aggression and brutality against other workers as if it was a natural expression of working-class anger. I certainly don't think it's the jolly right-on singalong that FAF are looking for.

Incidentally, I think Griffin lobbed Billy Bragg a bit of a soft one, presumably because the fat fraud doesn't know any traditional songs himself. We were lucky it wasn't "I bet Billy Bragg doesn't know The Four Loom Weaver".

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM

Precisely three people have got it. Precisely three people understand the class war and treachery. Precisely three people understand that only when unions eventually smash capitalism will there be justice for the workers. Fucking brilliant

-----------------------

Or, precisely three people thought the same as you.

It's a Commando comic song. Commando comics have their place - heck, we've all read one or two - but most of us have moved on to slightly more - ahem, detailed and thorough - literature. Unfortunately, a Commando comic can't adequately describe the complex and varied reasons, situtations and problems / choices bought on by striking miners in any real depth. A few good vivid pictures, but I never learned any substantial German. Hände hoch!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

And you do favour the Lloyd Provenance yourself, do you not?
I accept it as a possibility - no more; so I don't make definitive statements about it.
"I've sat through too many renderings of JO to change my mind ...."
So you don't let the facts spoil a good theory - no change there then.
Suggest you try Child or Bronson - or maybe Bert faked them!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: brezhnev
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM

Continuity Jones: did you ever see Commando No 15 ?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

So you don't let the facts spoil a good theory - no change there then.

What facts are those? I know he based Jack Orion on Glasgerion - so what? Does that automatically qualify it as quality piece of work? Obviously not in this case - Jack Orion is a piece of bogus repro folkery of the worst order. In its attempt to effect idiomatic ballad language it falls short by many country miles, and yet it goes on forever. It is an overkill of Pugin Psuedo Gothic proportions - some may like it, but each time I here it sung all I think is - that's ten minutes (at least) of my life I'll never get back.

Suggest you try Child or Bronson - or maybe Bert faked them!

I'm well acquainted with both thank you very much. But tell me pray, what's that got to do with Jack Orion?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Brezhnev, that's very funny indeed, at least to my happy eyes.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

What facts are those?
The facts that Lloyd based Jack Orion on Glasgerion, nothing more - the rest is down to personal taste.
You appear by your tone, to wish to shove yours down everbody elses throats.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

It's so nice that SO'P is back and that he and Jim are at each others throats.

Just like old times!! I've missed it!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

He started it, curmudgeonly old grunter that he is.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:11 PM

Murray McLeod [..." it lasts that long " ...
does it indeed.
my grandmother was a McDonald, maybe I should go and kill myself a few Campbells.]

If, as was the case in my example, you know a few Campbells who personally took part in the Glencoe massacre, then yes, maybe you should.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

"curmudgeonly old grunter that he is."

Tsk, you should all be ashamed of yourselves! What no Folk Degree? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM

OK, OK - peace, love, sweetness, and light, y'all.
In other words, please stop acting like crotchety old men whose testosterone has gone sour. I think that's the crux of a lot of the problems we have at Mudcat - testosterone that's gone sour. I used to think that happened to my parents' generation, but now I see the men of my own generation turning into crotchety old farts......and I wonder when it's going to happen to me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

...or could it be constipation????

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM

"...or could it be constipation????"

Well Joe, I prefer that to the thought of curdled testes I must say.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

Well, Crow Sister, constipation is certainly a factor in the crotchetiness of aging Mudcatters, both male and female. Maybe we should distribute virtual prune juice when they appear to be getting "that way."
Heck, yesterday I had to delete messages in a thread about the weather, because people were getting too ornery. I'm not sure if I should force-feed people with prune juice, or it it would be better to spray them with prune juice and cool them down.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:00 PM

Oh for goodness sake, Joe - enough with the nannying already & think about the spirit of the thing. It's this sort of policing that ruins Mudcat, not the heated debates - and in any case this isn't heated as far I'm concerned, just a series of idle banter and in-jokes.

I was rather enjoying being back; now I'm reminded why I left - the clampdown on free-speech backed up by the malicious PM-ing.

Soon as one of my posts get deleted I'm out of here!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

Yup. In the severely crotchety case of S O'P, it's clear that it's both constipation and curdled testosterone, causing a severe inability to accept a touch of humor.....

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"Well, Crow Sister, constipation is certainly a factor in the crotchetiness of aging Mudcatters, both male and female. Maybe we should distribute virtual prune juice when they appear to be getting "that way."Heck, yesterday I had to delete messages in a thread about the weather, because people were getting too ornery."

Heh Joe, well you can't blame *that* on age in my case, though maybe a disrespect for it ;-)
Otherwise, I was going to post Clampdown by the Clash, but thought this would be more suitable considering the context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL15Ya5fsgo

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

I'd let them be Joe (actually prune juice sounds about right). They're pretty harmless really...... and pretty well-informed.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

"curdled testosterone,"

I doubt that, having met his wife..

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, banjiman, that's the problem - these crotchety old men have lots of good information and I don't want to chase 'em away, but they sure can be a surly lot. I make a crack about constipation and testosterone, and I get accused of operating a police state.
Prune juice is what's needed to make this world a more peaceful place - lots of it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

"in any case this isn't heated as far I'm concerned, just a series of idle banter and in-jokes."

Amen, banter aside, this is err only banter..
Nothing too rough going on here IMO.

Just wondering - did you get complaints Joe?

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

"Prune Juice For a Peaceful World"

Should be a T Shirt Slogan!

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:25 PM

No, Crow Sister, I saw it on the list of Guest messages. I wish people would learn that if they want to fly under the radar, they should register and log in....

Hmmmmm.....my 21-yr-old stepson had to explain the term "E.D." to me yesterday. I wonder if THAT plays a factor.....

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

The Yahie Miners and the Blackleg Miners are two variants of the same song.

Most of the songs we sing exist in numerous variants, with new ones cropping up all the time, thanks to faulty memories, changing circumstances, and personal preferances.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

I think You Tube has constipation. It got halfway through the song Crow Sister posted a link to and then suffered a seizure. It's done that a few times on me in the last couple of days.

How about prune juice for You Tube - or maybe Sennacot might be more effective.

Subject: RE: The Blackleg Miner and FAF.
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Oh and 100!

First time I've done it!!