BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)

Subject: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 05:24 PM

I just bought a table at a yard sale. It is wood, not veneer, and it has some white marks.
Other than that, the surface is good and I would prefer not to do any real sanding or anything like that.

What is the easiest way to clean it up?
What's the BEST way?

Thanks,
M

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 05:33 PM

In the UK (and I presume as it was a yard sale you are in the US) we have 'Brasso Wadding' which is a slightly abrasive type of material.. I use that on white marks or cup rings ... rubbing in small circles until it goes..... Not sure if you can get it there......... Hope you find the answer. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 05:35 PM

It depends on what kind of finish is on the table. You will most likely have to remove it and refinish. The rings you mention suggest to me that the finish may be shellac which can be removed with methanol and 0000 steel wool. Other finishes, such as varnish or urethane will require paint stripper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 06:00 PM

If it's very dark wood and polished rather than varnished, rub the marks with half a brazil nut (without shell) to darken them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 06:56 PM

I've had some success with tobacco ash and a damp cloth. I have no idea why it worked, but it did. Now, the rings were fresh, so that might make a difference. Doesn't hurt to try, unless you're the one smoking the cigarette for the ashes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:10 PM

Some marks can be removed by a large pencil eraser.

Some stains can be covered up reasonably well with shoe polish.

Sometimes an old piece of furniture can be made presentable by doing the whole thing with shoe polish, but not recomended for ones that are valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:41 PM

I have a brazil nut and I think my guest ashtray isn't empty.
I will try those first..Thanks!


How do I tell what type of finish is on the table?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:11 PM

If it's varnished there's a good chance that it'll be chipped somewhere and you'll be able to see the depth of the varnish at the edge of the chip. If it's wax polished you'll get scratches but not bits chipped out.

I used brazil nut on polished dark English oak and it looked okay. Test a less visible bit first.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:15 PM

"How do I tell what type of finish is on the table?"

Try an area that is very hidden on the underside of the table. Use a small rag with solvent.

Varnish is dissolved by mineral spirits, lacquer by lacquer thinner and shellac buy alcohol.

Most connercial mass-produced cabinets and tables are done with laquer because it dries fast. This would be the first guess.

Can you post a picture? Some of us flea market and garage sale addicts are always curius what somebody else found.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:28 PM

pdq, at the moment, it looks like a dead table..laying on the floor with it's feet in the air because it's too heavy for me to turn upright now that I put the legs back on!
I'll be taking some pictures of a guitar in a few days and if this thread is still visible then, I can snap a few of the table (and chairs) while I'm at it.

I didn't see any chips or nicks, but there's a fresh scratch (hmmph, brand new..it wasn't there last night!) It just looks like a scratch, no chips of finish sticking up around it or knocked out along the scratch.
Sounds like wax?

I don't know how to tell what kind of wood it is. Dark, but I don't think it's walnut. It doesn't look like oak to me. It's something that can grow into boards that are at least 30" wide.

Even if it has to wear a tablecloth all the time, I think I got a really good deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM

Get some "OOO" steelwool, mix 1/2 linseed oiol and 1/2 minieral spirits and have at it... If that doesn't get the stains out then, bad news... They are too deep into the grain of the wood and the only way you'll get them out is to sand them out whioch I don't advise because you'll ened up havin' to refinish the entire table top... I think the steelwool and the linseed oil/ mineral sprits will work...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:37 PM

Sounds like wax, but even if it is varnished, brazil nut won't hurt it, it'll just not work. I think.. Try an invisible bit first.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:42 PM

looks like it's stained (which makes sense since the underside shows more grain than the top) and has a layer of something shiny on top of that. It shows along the bottom edge of the sides.

Thanks, Bobert. If the brazil nut or ashes don't do the trick, I'll think about trying a linseed concoction. Will I stick with the grain on that, or do little circles?
If I have absolutely no luck pulling the white out enough to keep it from catching my eye so much, I'll just go with the Tablecloth Routine. I don't want to sand/refinish it..at least not anytime soon.

Do we have anything like Brasso Wadding in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:43 PM

A brazil nut is an easy thing to try first.
If it doesn't work, I can eat my failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:01 PM

Take the nails out first..

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:08 PM

..seems like an awful lot of work, Smokey

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:15 PM

Who puts nails in a Brazil nut?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:19 PM

nut vandals?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:21 PM

Isn't there something about using white vinegar on furniture?
Is that a ring-hiding technique?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:21 PM

carpenter aunts?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:50 PM

.seems like an awful lot of work, Smokey

Backfired humour I'm afraid.. I meant before you eat the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:59 PM

If it's dark wood, you can buy furniture polish made with black walnut juice. Just don't wear anything you care about when you use it. That stuff is permanent! But it does get rid of rings, scratches etc.

I have mentioned the stuff before, but I will again reccomend Milsek furniture polish. The stuff was invented by a cabinet maker. It will get all the gunk out of the wood, old wax etc, and may get rid of the rings.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:16 PM

well yeah, Smokey..don't you think it sounds like a lot of work to pull the nails before eating?! I think we should all be glad I didn't opt for a reply that included the part about how it's not nailed..it's screwed!

Does the walnut juice polish leave a smell, LadyJean?
Is Milsek easy to find? I'm a distance from any cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:40 PM

I think I must be tired..
Best of luck, anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 03:40 PM

1: Turn the table over.
2: Put a blanket on it.
3: Put a dropsheet over the blanket.
4: Finish the guitar. There are people waiting for a report. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 03:48 PM

Oh, you could try rubbing the cup-rings hard with a product called Neepol. If you can find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 07:18 PM

I have taken white stains (heat and water caused) out of wood surface with auto polishing compound, and auto rubbing compound (where the marks were deeper). Put it on a damp cloth and rub the stain in circular motion.Each product removes a small amount of the surface fihish....rubbing compound removes more.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 10:30 PM

Guitar tonight, Gurney. I'm ready for a report too. I want to play that dang thing soon!
Turning the table topside up and looking at it is tomorrow's task..maybe a brazil nut trial.

Ed,
Do you think ash grit works the same as auto compounds?
What would I do with the dull spot my rubbing creates?

I have three kinds of Old English, Pledge, and Behold.
I have tung and mineral oils.

When I get the whiteness diminished, what should I use for my first cleaning?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 11:28 PM

Avoid anything containing silicone, is my advice. You can't beat old fashioned beeswax polish.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 11:37 PM

Does silicone hide under any other names on labels, Smokey?
You're right..I don't want any of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:13 AM

I don't think it gets called anything else but I don't know that for sure.. Pledge has it in, if it's the same product as we get here.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:20 AM

Thanks, Smokey. I'll check my labels before I start flinging product on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 06:45 AM

As long as the ring is white, it most likely is entirely, or almost entirely in the finish. A very old ring may penetrate into the wood, but in most cases where that happens there's likely to be a brown or black "edge" to the ring. The brown or black color is from mildew.

Any abrasive method such as toothpaste, oil and steel wool, etc that removes the ring will mostly remove the finish at least to the depth of the ring. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use an abrasive, but it does mean that you need to reapply something to re-seal the surface once the ring is gone.

If you can get a satisfactory color match, almost any "furniture polish" will give some degree of "re-finish." I'm somewhat partial to Old English but that's entirely because its about the easiest to find here, it's relatively cheap, and I have some almost at any time. (And since I've used it for the stain on much of my furniture, the dark stuff matches my stuff.) Any "oil containing" polish will eventually harden at least to some degree, if you can avoid re-ringing long enough, and you can build up the protection with periodic re-treatment - once you've achieved the color match.

For removing the ring, a method that sometimes works if the stain isn't too large or too old, is just to put a piece of paper towel or close-weave cloth over the ring and run a fairly hot iron over it. This sometimes will "re-crystalize" the existing finish so that it resumes its former color. (The actual effect is to drive out the water that's formed a "hydrate" with the finish material.) It does require a fairly hot (cotton or linen setting?) iron (usually) for this to work, so be careful not to char any wood.

There's not a lot of difference in which nut you use if you want to rub a nut on it, but if you don't want to buy a bunch of nuts you don't expect to use in short order you probably can get a variety of cooking/salad nut oils at the local food market if you look in the "exotics" section. I have walnut, pecan, and probably a couple of others somewhere in the pantry. Whether the oil, rubbed in, benefits the table you can use the rest for a bit of variety in your salad. Just don't wait until it "turns" on the shelf, and if it's something new be sparing about how much you sprinkle on the spinach until you're sure you like it.

The only really sure way to remove an old or deeply embedded ring is to remove the finish, and reapply new. If there's penetration into the wood, you probably will need to expose bare wood to bleach out any mildew. Most finishes don't support mildew growth, so if there's black it's into the wood.

If you can figure out a compatible finish, you may be able to abrade out the ring and refinish locally, just in the spot where the ring was. A couple of applications of an appropriately colored furniture polish may work for the restoration. The local finish you apply usually needn't exactly match the composition of the original as long as you get some surface protection down without an obvious "edge."

The only real way to tell if this "local fix" will be satisfactory to you is to try it and see. If a "spot refinish" doesn't blend in to your satisfaction, the only really sure way to restore truth and beauty might be a complete refinish of at least the top surface of the table, so that what's "visually contiguous" all looks the same.

If you need to go to a full top refinish, you may want to further your TAS by getting a decent light-weight belt sander. I'd recommend at least a 21" x 3" belt (the most popular size in my area) since the shorter ones are a little more prone to "dig in" and the larger ones tend to be heavy enough to be pretty clumsy. Practice on some scrap wood before hitting the table top though, and stick to relatively fine grit belts (80 to 120 grit, or so - 40 grit is frequently offered at retail places but can be very aggressive for your use).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 07:33 AM

There are several rings..only one looks really old/deep (I didn't notice a dark edge to it but I wasn't looking for one) If I can't pull the rings enough to make them less loud, I'll probably opt for the Tablecloth Technique. A TAS adventure would make me nervous on this project. I'd be worried about bunging the nice, smooth surface with ineptitude.

I'll try the iron first and the nut second.
I can try out my Old English options on the middle legs or chairs before the table to see which type matches best.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 09:52 AM

M~

Sorry to take so long getting back to ya' but I had two gigs yesterday...

The linseed oil/mineral spirits solution is a tried an true method for old furniture... The "000" sandpaper is so fine it won't mess with any finishes... But as with any cleaner, abrasive, it's best not to use swirling but to clean with the grain... If the stains are in the finish then the mineral spirits will desolve a portion of the finish... The trick is to go slowly and dry off with soft cotton cloth every so often to see how you are coming...

Yes, it is tedious but that's old furniture which, BTW, is all that the P-Vine and I own so we keep linseed oil and mineral spirits around for such tasks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 11:21 AM

Ed,
"Do you think ash grit works the same as auto compounds?"
Never tried the stuff

"What would I do with the dull spot my rubbing creates?"
Never had a dull spot when I used the compounds...maybe due to the the surfaces?
Auto polishing compounds suited for clear coat paint tends to be more gentle.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Jul 10 - 12:51 AM

Try Milsek. I'm not being paid to advertise the stuff. I clean for a living, and I am something of a conoisseur of cleaning products. You can find the stuff at one of the big hardware stores. By the way, I LOVE the smell.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning Old Table (water rings)
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Jul 10 - 12:58 AM

What color is Milsek packaging, LadyJean?
I'm quite a distance from any big hardware stores, but I wouldn't mind adding another product to my collection. I've got quite a bit of wood stuff to clean around here. Maybe I love the smell too and don't know it yet.

I still haven't figured out how to get the table right side up but I sure am glad to have so much informative input ahead of time so that when I do get it upright, I can launch into those rings from all directions instead of a bunch of annoying stop/start.

Thanks!