BS: what do you know about stucco?

Subject: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:24 AM

We're thinking about moving to a bigger house, and there's one I like that has a stucco exterior. It was built in 1923.

I've never lived in a stucco house. I can find info on problems with stucco, but no info on advantages. However, there are stucco houses in this city that were built in the 1920's and still look very nice.

Can anybody give me the real dope on stucco?

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:47 AM

Save for the house I'm currently in, My family has always lived in stucco housing. As you may infer from your comments it is very durable.
Stucco, unlike wood, does not need to be refinished (painted) periodically, so is low maintenance. (Speaking of repainting, we've got to do that before the end of summer.) Stucco often has a pebbly texture, but can also be smoothed to give the look of plaster.

I would think you might have more concern about the interior of the house. Although generally built better than houses today, i.e. molded ceilings, plaster (not plasterboard) walls etc., are the electrical and plumbing systems modernized?

Good luck in your house hunting...may you find the place of your dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 11:10 AM

It is good insulation, and is only a problem if it was badly laid on in the first place, such as when an undercoat of loose paint was ignored. If moisture gets under the stucco coat it can lift in patches, and need redoing in those areas. By and large an excellent invention.

We have recently redone the exterior of our house which was mostly stucco, with a sort of lath and board front that looked terribly dated and was shoddily made. We had it stripped away and the areas where it had been were replaced with the complete multi-layer stucco process--blackpaper, chicken wire, base coat, scratch coat and finish coat.

Usually it is low maintenance. We recently had ours painted with a polymer-based paint called TexCote which makes it eve more durable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 12:30 PM

Oddly enough, stucco has a bad reputation in some places, not in others.

In St. Louis, MO, where I grew up, most houses are made of brick, and stucco is regarded as substandard, and prone to problems.

In St. Paul, MN, where I have lived most of my adult life, most houses are wood frame with wood siding, and stucco is considered a step up from that. Brick would probably be a further step up, but brick houses are rare.

Brick is made in St. Louis. I don't think brick is made anywhere near St. Paul. Transportation probably makes brick a lot more expensive here. I have seen paving bricks in St. Paul marked "Laclede Brick Co., St. Louis." St. Louis is 500 miles south of here.

Of course I'm talking about the old part of town, in both cases. Suburbs, with newer building technology, might be a different story. I don't know enough about suburbs to comment.

Climate might have something to do with it. I don't think we have termites in St. Paul, because of the climate. (We have carpenter ants, though.)

I'd say, if you want good advice, ask local people in the area you are considering moving to.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:52 PM

I think, or rather, presume, stucco is fine in warm climates if the water is kept out, as Amos has stated.

If you get freeze-thaw cycles during winter, keeping the water out becomes MUCH more of a chore. I am in New Brunswick, Canada and I used to inspect buildings for sale. When I inspected a building with stucco, I told buyers up front that I would be writing in the report that any issues with stucco were not part of the inspection - even if I detailed issues observed during the inspection.

Having said that, a word of caution. If there has been water ingress, it may not be apparent during a visual inspection. The joints and sealants may look fine but you don't know when they were renewed or what was there before renewal.

But, with any other siding, it's the same. Problems that cannot be seen cannot be seen. In the end, it boils down to the cost of remedial action if there is damage that can't be seen.

Personally, I never gave a darn about curb appeal. Vinyl siding on a square box is the cheapest in the long run and I like to spend my money on the inside or on the yards on accounta that's where I spend most of MY time.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:41 PM

I guess I'm mostly with you on 'curb appeal,' gnu. To me the most important thing about a house is that it be a healthy house.

However, I do dislike houses that have big eaves and low ceilings, so that the house seems to be hunkered down and feeling suspicious of the world.

We have freeze-thaw, so that sounds bad for stucco. But arid regions can have salts in the soil, so that's bad too.

One site I saw mentioned having stucco below grade. Doesn't that mean below the soil surface? Do people actually put stucco below ground?

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:54 PM

See "Stucco Question," thread 114056:
stucco question

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 03:57 PM

Our house has had stucco for 60 years now, repointed once in that time period.
Location cold Calgary, Canada, with lots of freeze-thaw spring and fall.
A great coating.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 04:08 PM

I normally have an opinion about anything on Mudcat. But on the subject of stucco, I realise I know nothing whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:20 PM

Stucco is probably the most common siding for homes built in California after World War II. It's not susceptible to termite damage (although the wooden studs underneath are); it seems to be cooler in hot temperatures; and it needs little maintenance. I think it can be tinted only with pastel colors or white, so it has to be painted if you want your house to be a vivid color. Painted stucco holds up quite well, though.
But California stucco houses mostly look all the same. I think Malvina Reynolds was referring to California stucco houses when she wrote Little Boxes.

I may not like California stucco, but I really like the Tudor-style timber-and-stucco combination - referred to as "Fachwerk" in Germany, and sometimes painted or etched with wonderful illustrations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:32 PM

Q... that's great! What do you use in the joints and such to stop moisture ingress?

leeneia... big eaves in a northern clime are the best. Sunshade in the summer when you want to keep the sun off the windows as much as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:34 PM

I grew up in a rock house with stucco.
My climate is about the same as yours, Leeneia, and the stucco worked just fine. I doubt it had any work done to it between the time it was built and the time it burned.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 07:35 PM

I don't think you want a stucco coating over wood in the Pacific Northwest USA..I had one once and it was pretty and had no problems but it made me nervous. I know Vancouver BC had lots of stucco looking houses..perhaps it was not layered over wood but was some sort of masonry. They used to use broken brown glass -- beer bottles perhaps? in the stucco..to each her own..they did sparkle...mg

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 08:06 PM

gnu- not sure what you mean by joints. There are no gaps at corners, etc.- continuous stucco.
Pella windows (outside wood clad with anodyzed aluminum).
Roof 3-foot overhang on two-story house, white anodyzed soffits, etc., so no wood to paint.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 08:16 PM

Q... so, stucco at, say, window frames is simply "up to the frame"? No gaps... no caulking... no nothing?

Sorry if my questions sound ignorant... it is because I am in this intsance.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 11:08 PM

Hi, Gnu-
Plastic or metal window frames are nailed to the wooden framing. There's usually a flange around the window frame, and the stucco is applied over that flange, up to the window. As you can imagine, replacing a window frame can be a little messy - and wooden window frames may or may not require caulking, depending on the design.
Flashing is used in some places where there may be water leakage, and there are metal doodads that you use for support on corners. After the house if framed and covered with insulation and tar paper (or Tyvek, or the like), chicken wire is nailed to the studs, using nails with spacers so the chicken wire is about half an inch from the studs. Then a rough coat is applied - that's about the color and texture of concrete. Then the colored, smoother finish coat is applied.
For painting stucco, I use latex house paint with a roller with a thick nap, on a pole. Spray painting seems to work very well, but I haven't had much experience with spray painting. I like my rollers.
This video shows stucco application. I don't like applying stucco or drywall because I don't like the way the texture comes out when I do it - but I've done some patching here and there.
Stucco cleans up very well with a pressure washer, by the way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 06:39 AM

Thanks Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 01:05 PM

Thanks,Joe, you answered Gnu's question very well.

Our stucco is not painted, it is tinted a light gray. Several tints are available. We have tried to eliminate exterior painting, and have succeeded.

With black shutters, the appearance (to us, anyway) is nice.

A friend of ours has a house stuccoed with large rock chips. He wanted to extend this to a new addition, but found no one who would do the work (it is done in parts of Europe, but apparently a dying 'art'). Fine stucco is done regularly, but workmen are afraid to vary technique.

My home area of northern New Mexico and Santa Fe has many old houses of adobe brick. Formerly, the bricks were coated with a mud-straw slurry. Less than 20 inches rainfall annually. This clading had to be redone every few years as it wore off. The current method is a fine stucco, shaped at corners and roof-line to look like the old mud coating, used by the pueblo Indians, copied by the Spaniards, and continued by modern architects looking to keep the historic look of buildings in the region.

Santa Fe has a rigid code for exteriors, either the old adobe styling, or something called "Territorial," also smooth walls with a narrow brick trim at the roof line.
As a result, stucco has become the finish used on most homes and buildings. No wood siding, brick or stone.
El Cristo Rey (church) is the largest adobe structure in the U.S., it is clad in stucco.

The old cathedral basilica, built in the late 1800s by Archbishop Lamy, is stone, but it is exempted from design codes because of its historic associations. A very few other buildings, 19th C., are exempt for the same reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 07:29 PM

What is the curious exterior trim of that house?
That is stucco.
And what is that pile of debris under the window?
That is unstuck stucco.
And who is that fellow with the trowel trying to put it back where it came from?
He is an unstuck-stucco sticker-upper.
And the one behind him, who is feeding him mortar from a hod?
Obviously, an unstuck-stucco sticker-upper stoker.
Then the sinister-looking gentleman behind him must be --
Yes, an unstuck-stucco sticker-upper stoker sticker.
And clearly, concealed in the sleeve of his black robe, is --
The unstuck-stucco sticker-upper stoker sticker's stiletto.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 08:44 PM

Love it Joe.... :-)

In Australia, they brought out a few decades ago, a system where they sprayed a sorta plaster mix onto sheets of 'fibro' nailed onto wood houses. Many traditional build 'post and beam on stumps' houses - with radial sawn weather-board, or chamfer board - tend to move a fair bit - normally no damage if the inside was the old style tongue and groove board, but if you go to (rigid) plaster board, or fibro board, it cracks. Well that happened, and the junk fell off - only cure was to rip it all off, sand back the now heat damaged paint and repaint... (repaint, repaint, and thin no more...) My mum's house - inherited from my grandad, was treated thus....

Stucco had also fallen out of favour, cause on brick homes, it was thought more tacky that the unrendered brick - even painted brick is less popular.

The same propblem as above happened on wood houses covered in stucco as others described above - it seems that in many areas in Aus, there is some earth movement. We can have "black soil" where it dries in droughts or swells as it rains - the earth can move a fair bit. Regular checking of the stumps and relevelling is often a good idea as normal maintenance.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM

Don't Aussie houses have foundations?
What are 'stumps?
Your so-called 'black soil' occurs in a lot of places.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 11:45 PM

Thanks for all the input, everybody. It sounds as if our area has too much rain and freeze-thaw to be good for stucco.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:51 AM

Old style Aussie houses - post 'bark hut' days - prior to 'concrete slab' construction style.

"Post & beam" elevated on lengths of 18 inch to 2 feet thick length of hardwood tree trunk (stumps - probably from 'tree stump'). Clad inside with tongue & groove boarding, exterior with radial sawn or (later and posher) chamfer board. Roof - corrugated iron. Almost indestructible, except by termite - we don't have tornadoes. They are incredibly flexible, even when some stumps sink - of course when out of square, doors and windows can be a problem.... :-) The stumps are often only just enough to get the floor off the ground and a small crawl space to check for termites - but some stumps on parts of the house CAN be up to 30 feet in hilly areas.

The concept of a 'foundation' comprising a partly underground 'basement' was - and largely still is - unknown, except in a few early 'terrace house' style blocks.

The few stone houses - especially in places like Adelaide - were built right on the ground - nowadays - I know from fa,ily experience - you have to dig out the rising damp by ripping out wall sections, putting in foundations with damp course, and rebuild the walls with brick.

Most modern houses are 'slab' construction.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: open mike
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:07 AM

one of the houses in this area that survived the fire two summers ago was one that had stucco on the first story. the second story had wood siding but the lower half of the building was protected by the non-
flammable surface of the stucco (cement?) applied to the walls. when the building was being finished, we had a party and everyone decorated the stucco walls with illustrations, symbols and designs././././.Fun!!

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:12 AM

leeneia, I am less than two hours north of you..stucco was fine on our house. If it has stuck on the house you're looking at since the 20s, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to fall off at the next season change.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:12 AM

I heard once, that Helen Keller once went crazy, and suffered for days with bouts of dizziness, when she went out and tried to read it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM

I wouldn't expect it to fall off, Melissa. What I'm worried about is hidden damage behind it. I suffer from allergies, and I'm very leery of mold.

My husband is dead against it, and apparently there's no authoritative source that I could quote to change his mind.

We shall see. The house with the stucco is the first house I have seen where I think I could feel at home.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

Our stucco is on some sort of heavy wire-like metal grid, over an asphaltic paper, over ship-lapped wood. Very solid and impossible for mold to form. (The wood on houses now mostly ply- or chip-board; shiplap 1x6-8 inch boards now expensive).

The following article has a picture of a two-story in Schenectady NY, which has a fair amount of rain, snow; certainly more than Calgary.
Note what they say about its ability to withstand wetness.

Greeks, Romans and Etruscans developed stucco to a high art.

http://architecture.about.com/od/sidingconstruction/g/stucco.htm

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:29 PM

Thanks for the link, Q. It explains things I didn't understand before, such as references to 'paper.'

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:35 PM

IT won't fall off due to weather IF it is laid up properly in the first place. If moisture gets under it, it will cause local bubbles to raise up and areas of the stucco to peel. This is easily remedied by waterblasting back down to a solid undercoat and building it back up properly in the affected areas.


A

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: open mike
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM

another technique for construction is straw bale
where layers of plaster and or clay are added to
the outside of straw.

A house is being constructed locally for a family
who lost their house to the fire which destroyed
over 200 homes 2 years ago.

Here is the organization that is doing the project:
http://www.strawbuilding.org/pages/main.php?pageid=1

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 07:02 PM

So is stucco like pebbledashing? A layer of plaster/mortar skimmed over a house and small pebbles pushed into it whilst wet, drying to form a rough textured coating? Great fun to do (literally dashing or throwing pebbles at a wet plaster wall) but a pain in the ass to patch or paint.

Not too bad if you can get enough pebbles (how many shingle beaches did we lose due to the craze for pebbledashing in the 1930's) but crushed rock often has nasty sharp edges just waiting for the unsuspecting drunkard to lurch against it... I lost a huge chunk of skin off my cheekbone that way once - and I was sober!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 10:45 AM

It differs, Liz. Stucco is smooth. No rocks added.

I'm sorry to hear about your mishap.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:46 AM

It sounds similar to the molded building material used in some ex-local authority houses in Bovey Tracey Cornwall. They are perfectly good houses spacious and with a good bit of ground on them but people can't get a mortgage for them because of the material so can't be sold and can only be used letting out or holiday homes. It's a shame because for a couple just starting out they are fine.

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:18 AM

In Scotland we call the exterior coating of masonry "cement rendering"......As far as I know "stucco" referred to a decorative coating, usually lime plaster.....used in dry warm climates.

Unless the walls are properly prepared, "rendering" is prone to cracking and water penetration.

Here we use we use "roughcast" or the old Scottish coating called "harling" which was applied in one coat.

The rough texture breaks up the water flow and reduces penetration.

Cement coating can also be applied to timber framed buildings using metal lath as a means of attaching the coating to the timber. Ake

Subject: RE: BS: what do you know about stucco?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:16 AM

Kingfish to Andy: "Dis is a stucco house, an' you is de stuckee."