BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???

Subject: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM

Well, I reckon that most folks have foxes around where they live but rarely see them... Seems that we have one who has taken up residency in a culvert pipe about 1oo feet from the house... Yeah, he does go out and play fox but I see him 3-4 times day and he doesn't seem to bothered by me... This mornin' I had a bead on him with my shotgun but couldn't bring myself to shoot him... I mean, he's youngish... May a year old...

The question is, will he go after my cats if I leave him alone... Right now I have 4 cats which live purdy much outside... One of the cats I'm purdy sure would give this fox a whuppin' but the other three are, ahhhh, pussies, so to speak... Yeah, they fight with each other now and then (just playin') but I don't think they have the mindset that "Top Cat" has when it comes to protecting themselves...

So, what do ya'll think??? Shoot the fox or don't shoot the fox???.

BTW, no, he's not acting sickly like he was rabbied... Just thinks he lives here???

And, no, I don't wnat the expense of payin' a certified animal rehabilitator to trap and move him... That's expensive..

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: maeve
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:04 PM

Most foxes seem to be willing and able to kill and eat cats. We don't mind too much, since around here it's stray cats that kill the wild birds and try to get to our bantams.

Your call, Bobert. I like having a fox in the neighborhood because of the cats and voles, but have to be watchful when I let the chooks out for a garden holiday.

m

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:05 PM

The only fox I even 'knew' wanted more to play with local domesticated pets than fight with them. (Six months raising one)

I doubt he sees cats as potential meals, as rodents are much more appetizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:11 PM

Cant speak for USA , but in UK foxes have a deal of respect for full grown Cats and would seek easier 'eats' that wouldnt have such claws and teeth !

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

Believe it or not, I had a pet fox when I was a small child , while growing up on a farm,where there were plenty of foxes. My father found him when it was very young and I raised the fox...it lived outside (in a dog house), because it was kind'a stinky (musky,to us, anyway).It was a nice pet.

It would often hunt mice and small rodents, though we fed it other food. It's sad end came when a car ran over a chicken, and he took on a liking for our live flock. I saw my father take it for a walk, (he had a gun with him) and the fox was never seen again... by me, anyway.

I can't vouch that my red fox (Sandy) was like the ones in the wild. But, my understanding is foxes mostly hunt small rodents and rabbits. I suspect they could "take on" a full grown cat, and possibly prevail, if hungry. But, if the preferred "more docile" prey is present, I can't see why a normal, healthy fox would go after a cat that would fight back?

However, if there are Coyote's in your area...cats, small dogs... and even foxes, beware.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Darowyn
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM

When we lived in East Yorkshire, a stream formed the boundary at the bottom of our garden. We had four cats at the time, The matriarch, Parkin, was big and ready for anything, her sister Windle was scared of everything. Tom, the grey suffered with a bad leg and poor co-ordination as a result of a virus infection damaging his nervous system when he was a kitten, but he was a berserker if it came to a fight. Charlie, the little black cat, had all the fighting spirit of a teddy bear, could not have fought his way out of a paper bag.
One morning I heard Parkin give her "I'm going to kill you!" scream, so I went out to see what was causing the trouble. On the bank of the stream there were two ducks and a dozen ducklings. The four cats were standing shoulder to shoulder at the edge of the water, ears back, fur fluffed out and snarling.
The cats had a very protective attitude to the ducks, although they were wild mallards, not our livestock. They seemed to believe that if they lived in our garden and we fed them, they were part of the family.
When I looked across the stream there was a big dog-fox on the opposite bank, looking very interested in the ducks.
But there was no way he would think about taking four cats working together!
I was pretty sure it was a bluff on their part, but it was fascinating to see them actually acting as a 'pride' like that.
So maybe if your cats see the fox as part of the household, they may be OK, as long as the fox is able to agree to the deal.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

No coyotes this far back in the holler...

Still on the fence here... I mean, the fox seems purdy docile as far as foxes go... Most of them run when I come upon them... This guy kinda walks away slowly unless I yell at him or throw something at him...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

I've seen cats frighten foxes away on several occasions. All depends on size and temperament, I suppose, but I know of few dogs that would face a fully angered cat. I've even known spitting angry cats scare full grown humans! Oddly enough, it seems to be the smaller breeds of dog - terriers, for example - that can deal with cats.

Let the fox be unless he's killing your chickens... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: maeve
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM

Bobert, it seems likely that if there is other, easier grub available (rodents, insects, fruit, wild bird eggs, etc.) the fox would rather not tangle with a cat. If it's attacked by a cat or a cat goes after its cubs, it it's a different game.

It's a part of the habitat.

m

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

I think a fox would have to be pretty well desperate before it'd tackle a grown cat. They aren't stupid creatures.

Rubbish bags are probably a much better option.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: maeve
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

Most of the Southern foxes I've observed were moderate in size and shy in manner. The Reds and Grays here in our part of Maine have ranged from petite to fairly large in size, and were willing to come right up to the chicken pen, house, golf course, etc. One Red was known for stealing as many golf balls as it could carry off from the local course and into its den, also on the green; no matter how many golfers were there watching.

It is my opinion that most of the cats killed and eaten here are prey to coyotes and Great Horned Owls rather than foxes or fishers. What is common in Bobert's stompin' grounds, I don't know. He'd have a better idea.

m

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM

When I was a lad and Dad took me hunting around the farms of our relatives, there were certain animals he would terminate with extreme prejudice. He learned this as a boy.

He told me that there was no such thing as one fox, porcupine, racoon, skunk, weasel or whatever. Any animal that was any threat to the farm stock, crops or timber in any way, by predation, damage or disease (even the future possibility of disease, particularly rabies), had to go if it was near a farm.

So, it's a dicey call. I understand why you didn't pull. I haven't hunted for a fair time now and sometimes question why I continued to do so as long as I did. Photography would have been more fruitful and more rewarding but I didn't realize that until after I stopped hunting. I guess when you are taught about hunting beginning at age 5 it stays with you to some degree.

If it was my call? I kinda hate to say on accounta I really don't know for sure if I would pull, but, I think I would.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

Cars are a lot more dangerous to cats than foxes are.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:05 PM

We feed our foxes with leftovers virtually every night and have no problem with them at all.

Our cat is now 2 years old but from 6 months she has had total access to the garden and became very good friends with one of the dog-foxes and they ended up playing 'tag' together. I think he tolerated her in the beginning as she was so young but he got into the spirit of the game after a short while. We've got some fabulous videos *grin*

He's gone now and we're watching out for the newest batch of cubs to discover her, maybe they'll play 'tag' too.

But on the other hand, a good friend had his cat taken by a fox, they saw it happen. Their cat was old and sickly, probably survival of the fittest...

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

Let it be

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:05 PM

I understand that foxes eat a wide variety of things- including worms - but that mice, voles, moles and wild rabbits are their mainstay.

I've had a pet fox, a Grey. He played by the hour with my border collie but paid little attention to my cats.

I would let him be. Unless I were raising chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:34 PM

No chickens...

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM

Okay, I'll take a wait-and-see attitude toward Mr. Fox... Actually I think I'll take some munchies for him and put them behind the farrowing barn...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: ClaireBear
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

My family raised a fox from a kit before I was born. It slept curled up with the family cat and the two were said to be best friends -- for whatever that's worth!

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:57 PM

Cat vs fox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPDEGF9OAFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6G09GBsDeM&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: ranger1
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

Well, from my experience, a cat is pretty easy pickings for a fox. Heck, I've seen the aftermath of a fox taking out a full grown turkey. BUT all animals are opportunists and will go for whatever is easiest to catch and uses the least amount of energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM

You ain't met my cat, Kendall, range-1... He'd go to war with a mountain lion and the mountain lion would knw it had been in one serious fight... Ya' see, in these back-in-the-holler farms there are plenty of ferrel cats and Kendall keeps them all out... Kinda like a junk yard cat...

I'm kinda thinkin' that seein' as the fox and the cats have been coexisting here for the last month that the fox either is buddies with them or the fox has a healthy respect for them... My thinking is that if keep feeding the fox then it wil become more comfrotable around me and the cats...

Not gonna shoot the sumabich tomorrow...

One day at a time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: My guru always said
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:41 AM

If you do feed it, the fox might feel like part of the family and not get peckish about family members. Don't think that applies to chickens though!

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Becca72
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:36 AM

Above guest was me (Let it Be)...I didn't realize I'd lost my cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:38 PM

These are observations I made about something that happened behind my flat in Leeds in 2000. It may not answer your question but the observation still stands....

"There appears to be a number of urban foxes (Vulpes vulpes) that frequent this area. The playing fields of *** and *** schools provide a thoroughfare that is transited regularly by at least three foxes (two, often as a pair). They walk through the field, adjacent to the rear of the local houses, and can be seen urinating on the mole hills that are also abundant. More likely they are seen in the evening - at least this has been the case during July/August - around 9.00 PM, but have been observed in the day time too.

On the evening of 19th August 2000, at approximately 9.00 PM, a single fox was seen to enter the field and began to urinate on/mark the mole hills in its usual fashion. It then moved across and sat under a large hawthorn. Very soon after one of the resident cats, from the nearby house adjacent to the field, approached the hawthorn (this particular cat has a rather audible bell around its collar that can be heard from some distance). The fox did not appear to hear its approach but the cat was close enough to observe the fox.

The cat approached very stealthily. The fox moved off in the opposite direction, seemingly unawares of the cats presence, and the cat then moved to where the fox had been sat and began sniffing the surrounding area.

A couple of minutes passed and then the fox turned round and began returning to the hawthorn. Only then did the fox notice the cat and the two of them sat staring at each other from about two metres away. This went on for approximately two minutes. The cat then got up and made a sudden move toward the fox. The fox ran off, with no sign of aggression whatsoever, and the cat quickly sat down again.

Another, larger, fox entered the field from the opposite side of where the first one had appeared. They moved toward each other and began rubbing their muzzles against each other. Both sniffed the other and the two started moving into a far corner of the field, searching the ground and sniffing it as they went.

At the same time another cat was seen to enter the field and the foxes noticed it immediately. It was larger than the first cat, and all white, so was not easily missed against the green background. The foxes both split up and approached this cat on either flank. As they got within two metres the cat stood upright on its legs, fluffed up its fur (appearing to grow almost to twice its original size), and the foxes fled immediately away. They quickly rejoined each other, about 20 metres behind the cat, but made no further approaches. The cat remained still, in the previously described posture, for about three minutes, and then walked away in the opposite direction of the foxes.

The foxes then went around the field and continued 'foraging' around for some time before sight of them was eventually lost.

This left me wondering if cats are actually dominant to urban foxes? I would have thought the opposite as although I know cats will see a dog off they more usually run away from them. It could well be that urban foxes are more aware of cats in this environment, so try to avoid them, but I was most surprised to see that even two of them were no match for the cats threat display. Indeed, would cats be prey for foxes? I simply have no idea."

Taken straight off my animal behaviour journal

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM

What comes to my mind is that foxes are SO very intelligent and seldom exhibit belligerent behavior for its own sake. The are fast, smart and seem to see no advantage in challenging cats & dogs just to 'prove a point'. As noted above, they will even become friendly and play in many circumstances. The fox I helped raise loved to play 'catch me' with 2-3 dogs, and wear then out running about the yard.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

Bobert... you got a cat named Kendall? No problem. Name the fox Jacqui and Bob's yer uncle.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

I suspect that the cat family is feared because they fight so differently from the canines. A cat will by instinct try to disembowel its antagonist, a dog may try for the jugular or a leg. Which way would you rather die? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

I have found cats normally go for the eyes first.

I've posted this one before... the best trick I ever saw in a cat fight. 8PM... Cassie (4 years) ambushed Cheucie (12) at the LR/KIT entrance and immediately dashed down the hall, with Cheucie in pursuit. Cassie planted her front claws in the carpet at the bedroom door jamb at the end of the hall and put the top of her head against the jamb. She then levered her hind end up just as Cheucie caught up to her and raked Cheucie's chest and neck with her hind claws in whirlwind fashion a la Bug's Bunny cartoon speed. FUR was FLYING!

I let out a great roar and the fight was over... for a while. Cheucie immediately went to the litter box in the basement and then sat in the kitchen by the food and water dishes. At 2AM, I heard them at it again and the next morn, the was fur in the kitchen... Cassie's.

Cats can be pretty cagey.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:01 PM

Going for the eyes may well be - but try tickling a cat under its chin- and see those legs come up. Even in play, a cat eviscerates.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:05 PM

Yes, Ebbie. In close, raking to the guts fer sure. But in a faceoff, the eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:00 PM

Well, the best part about this is that everyone seems to be playin' "can we all just get along" and that is nice... This mornin' I had to go to town on business and the fox was right in the middle of the driveway and I had to wait while it decided I had obstructed me long enough and then slowly wandered down the hill into the woods but before that I rolled the window down and asked him if he was having a nice day??? He stopped and looked back and then went on his business...

Sheeesh... I am certainly learning about how to live with foxes around yer house... Allready have the "Racoons Living Around Yer House" and the "Skunks, Bears, Possum, Stupid Deer Living Around Yer House" and the latest "Snakes and Everybody Else" Certificates... So I reckon with this one, the others and 89 cents to the Corner Coffee Shop I prolly can come ouuta there with a 12 ounce blend-of-the-day...

...or not???

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: open mike
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:19 AM

i have a fox that frequents my yard. I have seen it several times and
wondered since it seemed so bold, and moved with a funny hop/prance if
it was rabid. i give it scraps and compost and it seems to visit the compost pile nightly. the cat has been present when the fox was in view and seemed not to be worried about it..i wondered if they had some sort of agreement.

does anyone know how long the life span is for a rabid fox?
I figure if I still see it (him ? her?) in a month or more
that it would not be likely to have rabies, as it would
possibly have sucummbed by that time if so. I have been
seeing Foxy and signs of Foxy for several weeks now. I
am glad there is any wildlife at all, as 2 years ago there
was a devastating fire which wiped out the whole area. I
buried some carcasses of critters that were not able to
escape, and other neighbors have done the same with birds,
deer and more.

there are some cool videos on you tube of foxes....interacting with cats....and even jumping on a trampoline...

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: open mike
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:24 AM

regular life span of a healthy fox is only 1-4 years according to some sources. yeah, bobert, just go for the certificats...i mean certificate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:36 AM

The foxes in the UK especially in the urban areas around Bristol are getting more and more fearless and keep within close proximity of humans. I have noticed it more these last few years, one in particular walked past me along the road just like a stray dog. I've heard stories about foxes attacking or killing cats but never actually witnessed it so I reckon it is another one of those urban myths. It would be too much hassle to be in confrontation with a claw wielding spitting cat especially when MacDonalds or KFC is only up the road methinks!

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:43 AM

If you MUST shoot it, please use the appropriate weapon, a shotgun is not the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM

Well, it's a .410/.22 over/under shotgun/rifle... If I shoot it with the .22,unless I kill it outright there is a better chance of it running off and dieing a slow death but if I take it down with the shotgun and frollow up with a kill shot it's all over in a matter of a couple seconds...

But, unless it exhibits sickly or agressive behavion, which it isn't doin', then hopefully I won't have to kill it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: ragdall
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM

Bobert,
I'd be far more worried about the raccoons around your house harming a cat. My brother's cat was badly injured fending off an urban raccoon. They can be very nasty critters.   

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:56 PM

I feed an extended family of six foxes every night. I can assure you that a fox will run a mile rather than tangle with a cat.

They are lovely creatures - and very friendly (once they get to know you).

Please don't shoot it - it's just trying to get along, same as the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:30 PM

Well, ragdall, we got planty of raccons and the cats don't have any problems with them... I've opened the mudroom door and seen both a cat and the raccon eating cat food from the same bowl at the same time???

And, yeah... I'm leaving a few table scraps for Mr Fox but not near the house but out behind the barn...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM

Do the wild critters a real favor -- don't give in to the temptation to feed them!

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:27 PM

Well, the fox is allready gettin' into our compost pile so I figured that a few scraps ***now and then*** can't much hurt... Heck, I throw corn out in the winter when it snows for whomever is hungry... It ain't like a daily thing... Just an occasional subsidy for them critters... Plus, my farm back up to the Shenandoah National Park where no hunting is permitted so their are way too amny animals for the food available so I reckon that it's purdy tough being a wild animal in a game refuge where there isn't enough food to go around... This fox came outta there... And he's very thin...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM

"Well, it's a .410/.22 over/under shotgun/rifle..."

I used to have one of those same combination rifles a few years back....I seem to recall that mine was not that accurate hitting the target (no, it was not the shooter:)...But, maybe it was just the type I had at that time?

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, Ed... I have spent alot of time target shooting mine and can hold about a 6 inch spread with 10 shots at 100 feet with the .22... Good enough for most critters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 06:08 AM

I think I agree with resisting the temptation to feed them. They are 'wild' animals and should be left to forage around as they are supposed to. It is tempting, I am a softy as far as animals go myself especially with the winter just gone which was the most severe we have had in the UK in decades. But recently in the news on a hot summer night baby twins had been attacked by a fox which had got in through an open window. The theory was that the fox was either after the nappies they were wearing or could smell milk rather than wanting human flesh. The twins thankfully survived the attack and it is rare but I wonder if some of us are to blame for enticing them too close.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM

"Yeah, Ed... I have spent alot of time target shooting mine and can hold about a 6 inch spread with 10 shots at 100 feet with the .22... Good enough for most critters..."


No, not good enough, no where near good enough in fact. If you are going to shoot animals you have a duty to end their life a quickly and cleanly as possible. 10 shots in a 6" diameter at 30yds is pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:54 AM

GUEST,Patsy - urban foxes are here because we are, and they've been here for a very long time (we just didn't notice). They feed off what we throw away and they are not going to disappear anytime soon. They have already been enticed.

Kill them and more will arrive to take their place. Starve them and they'll stay anyway, but may become desperate. Feed them and they will leave us alone - a well-fed fox is not going to harm anybody.

The babies incident was regrettable, but so was the hysteria that accompanied it. Far, far more people are injured or even killed by dogs every year, but that's apparently not a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM

Silas... "10 shots in a 6" diameter at 30yds is pathetic."

I assume you are commenting on shooting a fox with a 22 at 100 feet. Bobert has already said he would not use the 22 for that. I assume he would use a 410 slug.

If you are commenting on Bobert's marksmanship, I find your comment odd because store bought 22 ammo is easily subject to such variation these days as even "reputable" companies buy ammo from second rate manufacturers and sell it under their brand. I had a 22 casing split in a Win 9422 XTR and the breach blowback put my eye out of round. Mexican made ammo. I sold the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM

A 6 inch pattern with this gun is actually about the best that can be done with it... It is a backpacker with an 17 inch barrel and open sights... No scope... I mean, I've been in shoot clubs and was awarded marksman ribbon in military school with a danged M-1... So I know what decent is... I've had other supposed good shooters shott this little gun and they ain't no better with it...

But it does the trick... Everything that I have needed to kil with it has gotten killed... And quick... I have even killed deer with it with the 22... One shot and done... Plus, if I had to shoot the fox, heck, it wouldn't be a 100 foot shot... Maybe a 40 foot shot so it would be one and done...

But I ain't gonna kill the fox... Well, let me put it another way... I hope to never have to kill the fox...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fox (as in animal) & Cats Question???
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM

17" barrel (illegal here)... and not a bull barrel... there ya go. It's a close up varmint gun. 6" group standing is acceptable.

Of course, Rapaire could shoot one round and put the rest in the same hole with his eyes closed. >;-)