Playing with worse musicians

Subject: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:14 PM

I've read here and other places that it's important to play with musicians who are considerably better than me. I've heard it in real life and I believe that it is important and useful to do find better players and mingle.

In real life, that isn't always possible.
My Better players have died and I've spent the past few years playing with several folks who can barely keep up with themselves..keeping themselves in place with a group is beyond the reach of several of them. Being in that position sort of revised my notions of keeping an eye/ear open for stuff I wanted to snag from others in the group.
I usually don't have anyone to follow anymore and that means I have to lead myself. The job I gave myself is to make our gatherings sound more musical..pulling those who need pulled and carrying the ones who need carried..and keeping myself entertained.

I have gotten to a point where I can easily tell everybody which chord is coming up (which I call being a 'Chord Shouter') or which one they might have missed (if they look at me or ask later). Not a big skill, but it's useful to be able to talk, think and play at the same time.
I recently realized that I can read guitar chords from the back of another players hand if it's a song I don't know at all (or one that doesn't fit together like normal chords/songs)
I can plick out some melody notes to help a wavering singer hear where he's supposed to be.
I have learned to be glue..and how to be invisible while I'm doing it. (I'm proud of the invisibility!)
I've grown into a style of my own, made partly of pieces I acquired from my Betters and partly just because it grew that way, and I am content with the Musician I'm becoming by playing with not-so-good musicians.
The learning I'm doing has probably done a better job of making me able to play more flexibly and a little bit not-the-same as others..and the times when I can't keep up with Betters when I run across them are very rare.
I truly enjoy the times when I an reluctantly allowed to join in and get to watch the musicians change from seeing me as a stray woman to treating me as a fellow musician.   



Is anyone else pleased with what they've made with their lemons?

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:37 PM

To avoid these issues I always try to be the worst musician in any given group. It's not all that hard, really.
I recently realized that not only can I not tell from hand positions what key a song is in, I often can't hear it either. Through this, I have developed my own style of playing, which someone described as a bit like an assortment of beer bottles stacked on the lid of a broken washing machine in spin cycle. I also try to play very loudly and bump into other people's instruments, which allows me plenty of playing space.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:56 PM

EJ is a proud member of The Fooles Troupe Band.... or would be if he could find us.....

(run away!)

"which allows me plenty of playing space. "

My father's father used to play in brass bands - a bit uncomfortable, I suppose, but then you get used to it, and he did live thru The Depression, so that activity cheered him up - the playing, not the wearing. He started by blowing his own trumpet, but then borrowed someone else's great big heavy low note farty sounding thing - they never asked for it back.

He found it was great for getting a seat on the trams - you just dropped it on someone's toe, and when they stood up, you quickly said "Thanks!" and slid into the seat.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

First of all, EJay plays just fine... Really... Don't buy into that "How the heck does this thing work?" crap... He's an accomplished player...

As fir playin' with other folks who are either more or less accomplished I have to admit to having beern a regular at the Archie Edwards Barbershop for about 8 years where I came in as a "less than" and left as a "more than"... But a few things that do help is what I call "slow band" where if yer leading a song you walk everyone thru it veeeerrrrrrryyyyyyy slow and shout our yer chord changes... This gives everyone an opportunity to get the basic song down... This is not an oppotunity to use the "more than" tricks... Just keep it simple... The once you get it going you can throw yer tricks in 'cause it's allready going and the tricks will just enhance the overall sound...

Now sometimes we had folks at the barbershop who knew their 1st posotion chords and thought that meant that they we ready for the Kennedy Center and they would play poorly and loud... That's what the "facilitator" is for... Sometimes folks need to be asked to play just a little more quietly... Hey, it can be done sensitively... It really can... Words like "blend" can be used to get folks to play within the group...

BTW, the Archie Edwards folks still hold their weeky jams and have workshops and all that... Check 'um out a acousticblues.com...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:17 PM

"Is anyone else pleased with what they've made with their lemons? "

My girlfriend said when she was teenager, she used to stick them down the front of her t-shirt to make her tits look bigger - she was proud of that!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:20 PM

Having played with EJ AND Bobert (At the same time) I'll keep quiet , but any one who plays anywhere for a length of time will finish up as either accomplished or crap ! And often BOTH on the same day !

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:25 PM

Yeah, now Leadfingers ain't got all that much lead in his fingers, folks... One fine musican!!!

Might of fact, he's a charter member of BobertsBluesBand and, no, not as a Floozie which, BTW, he'd be out of his league...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM

Ah..maybe I ought to dig out the trombone (and a pair of lemons) and try some of these methods for variety!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:06 PM

I have never been in a position to offer musical guidance to anyone, though a few fellow-singers have accepted the odd (sometimes the very odd) suggestion for additions to their repertoire.

What I have experienced is the discovery that you never understand any task so thoroughly as the time you try to teach someone else to do it. There is real pleasure to be gained in helping someone else achieve something that matters to them, whether it is playing fine music, cooking a simple meal, pruning a plant, or analysing a complex set of accounts. Whilea goal may be little to you, it can be a major breakthrough for the other person.

I am grateful to those who have helped me to sing (I don't play anything, apart from the fool) and to dance a bit, back when I did that. This would be the "playing with your superiors" part. I hope that, one day, I may have helped someone else improve too. I would enjoy being good enough for that to be a possibility, it would be the "playing with worse" part.

General improvement occurs because it is a two-way process. Both parties can derive joy and satisfaction from the learning and playing together, roles change, that's all.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM

"There is real pleasure to be gained in helping someone else achieve something that matters to them,"

There sure is, gnomad.
If I wasn't gaining anything other than getting to be an extra body for some of the folks who don't have anybody to play with..getting to let them grab something they truly love and want..that part alone would be more than enough to be worth my time.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM

Well said, gnomad...

I'd rather spend an hour teachin' some kid how to play the blues than an hour on stage in front of an appreciate audience... I mean, that kid will always have that...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: treewind
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:21 AM

"I have learned to be glue..and how to be invisible while I'm doing it. (I'm proud of the invisibility!)"
I'd say that you've taken a very constructive approach to your current situation and you may well have learned more about musicianship than you did by just grabbing tunes and songs off others. You must have very good ears now!

Beware, however, of falling into a comfort trap. It may be satisfying doing what you are doing now, and you've learned some leadership, accompaniment and listening skills, but I think you should still find some better musicians (they must exist, even if you have to travel a bit!) and play with them. It won't feel so comfortable but you need to do it or you will stop learning, and you owe it to yourself to keep learning. Keep on with what you're doing now of course - that's valuable too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:24 AM

Own trumpet and all that, but yes, I feel that I have made some progress an innovation with what I can do on guitar and mandolin, and learned to use my somewhat untuneful and hard-to-control voice to least disadvantage. It's one of the reasons I get so cross about those who would impose barriers to entry to folk music in the name of quality control.

Whether I can actually help anyone else improve is a different question. I'd encourage them to try, but I'm not sure it's my place to tell them how to achieve that, they are them and I am me. I will sometimes suggest chord sequences if I see someone oversimplifying, but many do not want to know, and indeed in many cases the choice between a D or a Bm or an A or an F#m, or a series of shifts within the FGC sequence or sticking to an Em is arbitrary.

I don't know what to do about people with no timing, however.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:08 AM

RB, the only thing I've figured out to do with wretched timing is try to ignore it and play solidly enough for others to be able to hear where we ought to be.
I think being friendly and encouraging is a lot more important than being able to teach music stuff..

Anahata, I gleefully nab any opportunity I can find to play with Betters when I find them and can manage to finagle my way in. The only way it's uncomfortable is when they're rude..and that happens just as often with the ones I regularly mingle.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:35 AM

One of the reasons I love playing in mixed-genre music sessions - which I do at least twice every month - is that, not only do I find out about new tunes, but I get to play with people who are talented in different ways on different instruments. It's wonderful training for the ear and very satisfying.

Because of illness on the part of some regulars last Sunday, and with people being away on holiday, we had a smaller-than-usual gathering at my local session - just 6 of us. But I came away with new (to me) fiddle tunes ringing in my head. Every session's a learning experience, and no two sessions are ever the same. Hopefully, the people there also take away something from me as well...

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:32 AM

If anyone needs a "worse musician", the Washboard of Mass Destruction and the Voice that Talent Forgot are always available for a modest fee.

RtS

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:56 AM

... another potential Fooles Troupe Band member? ...

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:08 AM

Can I join...I rarely have the opportunity to play with worse musicians than myself!

And propably won't, even in a Fooles Troupe Band.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM

In order for it tobe possible for improvers to play alongside better players, those improvers must ultimately be prepared to make room for the next wave of improvers. I've noticed that not everyone appreciates this.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM

That Lonesome is one of the best blues harpsters going, so don't be fooled.

I enjoy helping others get betterr. I also enjoy trying to contribute to players who are better than I am. The music rules.


A

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST,Buddhuu
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:50 PM

I'm the worst guitar, whistle, mandolin, tenor banjo, harmonica, bouzouki, fiddle and bodhran player I know.

I have achieved unmitigated crapness on a whole heap of instruments.

What have I done for "worse" players? Made them sound good by comparison. They love me.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

I kind of stink compared to the other musicians-- until a song is called for. Then everyone suddenly departs for the bathroom or bar leaving me to croak a 300-year old ballad in relative peace.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

Budhuu, compared to me, you are a virtuoso, a veritable font of technical prowess. Undoubtedly, I could play louder than you on guitar, mandolin, and harmonica, though you would likely be both better and louder on the banjo and bodhran. In fact, the idea of a worst banjo and bodhran player is terrifying to most musicians. However, not being a musician, I find the concept only vaguely disturbing.
The concept of a Mudcat Fooles Troupe of simply awful musicians is enticing. It would be exclusive by its very nature, since most Catters I have heard play are extremely adept. I could imagine us doing an extended version of Kilkenny Ireland that would make sensible folk weep. If we could find a state where that sort of activity is legal, that is.
I believe Rob Naylor may be too good to play with us since he states "I rarely have the opportunity to play with worse musicians than myself!" This is an indication that very occasionally he DOES play with worse musicians than himself, which is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

Yes, Schlimmerkerl! That's exactly what we are looking for. Perhaps we could accompany you on all 82 verses of Matty Groves with a bodhran break in the middle.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: BobKnight
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

Playing with better, or worse musicians - you learn something from each.

However, some musicians are not great and are aware of their shortcomings while others are crap and think they're world beaters.

While playing as a stand-in bass player with a band one night I couldn't believe how full of their own importance they were. It was all about how wonderfull THEY were, and believe me they weren't.

'We're really gonna show the other bands in this town how it's done,' was one of the comments. I couldn't help but comment, 'maybe, but first you'll all have to learn to start and stop at the same time.'

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

and RTS is definitely in. Anyone with the bad taste to accompany his vocals with a washboard has got be horrible.
Yes, I'm warming to this entire Fooles Troupe Band concept! Hell, Mrs Miller got a three album deal.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:55 PM

I firmly believe that all songs with 82 or more verses should be broken more often than once for a solo. Maybe you should consider bodhran breaks every few verses with no apparent pattern to alert the audience ahead of time..

You're supposed to be talking about times when bad deals have turned out to be pretty good deals after you've given up and decided to plod along to be a nice guy!

I'm a fairly adequate guitar..but there are plenty of instruments I can't play well enough to sit in the same room with myself and I want to be in the MFT. I play a pretty bad fiddle, if I do say so myself.
You need a girl in the group if you expect to be taken seriously, you know.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

"Playing with better, or worse musicians - you learn something from each."
BobKnight.

What do you think makes the difference between the ones who learn at whatever level they are and the ones who start out not learning and stick with it?
Do you think it's a twisty insecurity thing, or a bloated ego?

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

Well, I think once you've had one bodhran break, the audience is on high alert and it's pretty hard to spring another on them unawares. I do think a fiddle break might be good, if you think you can saw away with no discernible melody except an unending chain of squeals and groans.
As far as audiences go, I don't pay much attention since you only see them at the beginning of the first tune. God knows where they go after that, and it certainly isn't my business.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:17 PM

Even when I hit the melody, I squeal and groan a little bit. Fiddles are VERY close to ears and my unskilled efforts are somewhat terrible to endure.


How about Roving Breaks..where the various awful solos take place in different parts of the building on a chaotic schedule? It wouldn't matter if the musicians couldn't hear the main song and it might be a good strategy for keeping the audience happily seated in their chairs instead of roaming around..especially if their third time roaming resulting in them being put into the break schedule.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM

I think that playing in a group that is *worse* than oneself is really hard work. For one thing, I am aware that I might mislead the entire group, which is an awful responsibility. I shudder at the thought that someone down the line might explain, Well, this is how Ebbie does it. aiaiaiaiiaiia

For another, it's just not much fun.

Playing in a group that is *better* than I am, on the other hand, is a blast. Not only might I learn something but there is great satisfaction in just sitting it out and listening.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

It IS hard work sometimes, Ebbie.
It surprised me when I realized that I was gaining so much by doing it..far more than the nice feeling of doing a GoodDeed.

Worse players leave a lot of opportunity for coming up with some really neat filler stuff.
Better players have a lot of neat filler stuff to appropriate.

I think it's Music either way.
(I think that now..but my perception on that wavers sometimes when I'm in certain circles)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Nick
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:46 PM

>>"Playing with better, or worse musicians - you learn something from each."
BobKnight.

So agree with that. I have been lucky on a number of occasions to play with people - or just observe and sit close to people - who are considerably better players and musicians than me. And I learned loads from them. But I have also learned a lot watching, listening and playing with people who are less good.

I also agree that people's inability to play in time is weird and enormously weird to me. How can it be so hard?

One thing that Melissa wrote in the first post was "Not a big skill, but it's useful to be able to talk, think and play at the same time." It is a huge skill. I watched last night a number of people playing together at a singaround most of them completely oblivious to the person leading the song - they just played what they knew with no reference to the timing or in some cases the notes; happy in their own little world, playing without listening.

>>What do you think makes the difference between the ones who learn at whatever level they are and the ones who start out not learning and stick with it?

I mentioned this to a friend of mine some while back and he quoted Bertrand Russell - "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." It led me onto reading some more and I came across the Dunning Kruger effect which makes a lot of sense to me and is pretty much spot on with my experience of playing with people.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM

Lonesome EJ: I believe Rob Naylor may be too good to play with us since he states "I rarely have the opportunity to play with worse musicians than myself!" This is an indication that very occasionally he DOES play with worse musicians than himself, which is unacceptable.

In that case, I shall continue the habit of a lifetime and play with myself!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:00 PM

That's fine, Rob. Just make sure you do it poorly.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

I know Foolestroupe is in OZ , and hasnt vast funds , but it WOULD be fun to have a Foolestropue Bad Band session at Getaway ! I dont think I could swing a trip to OZ any easier than Robin could get to Maryland ! Bloody Shame - It would be GOOD Fun

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

There's a Bad Band session at Getaway?   How did I miss that in 2008, LF?

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:41 PM

Dont Jump the Gun Genie - Just an Idea , IF we can all get together

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM

Will the goal to be for everybody to play as good as they can on the instrument they think they're awful on?

That could be a lot of fun!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:48 PM

I'd much rather play with musicians who are better than I am (unless they're really accomplished jazz guitarists, in which case I can't begin to learn a lot from them, much less follow them).    But where do you find a group where everyone can play with musicians who are better from them?

In a way I guess I'm lucky to be so mediocre in my guitar skills that there's almost always someone in the group who's more of a beginner than I am (or at least is more limited stylistically) and others who are much better. So I get both kinds of learning experience.

As for dealing with people with poor timing, I run into that problem more with singers than with instrumentalists. In that case, sometimes we have to suggest that people watch the lips of the person leading the song (which, of course, requires lifting noses out of the "Blue Hymnal" or whatever). Either way, whether instrumental or vocal, I think if people aren't following the timing of the song leader, reminding people (jokingly but seriously) that so-and-so is leading the song may be in order. Sometimes if people "know the song," they think it's fine to just launch into their own interpretation of it (chords, timing, etc.)

As to why some people seem to be unable to play in time, I think sometimes when it's a pretty accomplished player/singer, they may deliberately mess up the timing (e.g., throwing in or leaving out measures or half-measures or beats) because they really don't want others to play or sing along. Either that or they're just so used to playing solos that they haven't given much attention to keeping the rhythm steady or predictable.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:11 PM

Those BlueBook Gatherings sound really weird to me. We don't have anything like that here (or maybe I just haven't been invited) and I bet if I ever hosted one, the folks would get tired of hearing "Ack! Watch Genie with your ears so we can all end at the same time!"


We have a bunch of isolated musicians around here who used to mingle with the same men who were my Betters. Until someone knows where they are and can let them know where to find gatherings, a lot of them sit around home and play. After a few years of playing alone, it tends to give some of them kind of screwy timing.
When we get some of them in the group, I follow them as closely as I can and do a lot of visiting. They're our missing link.

Some awful timing seems to come from guys who don't have anybody to play with and do their learning by TAB.
It has to be really hard to learn an instrument from a piece of paper!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:56 PM

My late wife and I were once invited to contribute to a recording that a very nice-sounding musician was doing, and he kindly let us have a copy of his guide-track (with guitar and vox both played by him at the same time) to learn from.

Because he was so used to playing the song without others, it was indeed in the time signature of "one".

Eventually we invited him round to out home and played the guide track and invited him to accompany himself as if doing a second guitar track overdub. He couldn't do it. He then conceded that the track should be started again and we rehearsed it together so that the timing became repeatable.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

Melissa, I wasn't referring to "Blue Book gatherings," just to song circles where people - some or (in one case) all people use some sort of book or lyric sheets.   Sometimes people pass out lyric sheets for a song they want people to sing along on.   Some people bring RUS on their own. And there's one group (the particular one where I encounter the most people who have no sense of where the rests go in a piece of music) where they've put together big-print loose-leaf song/chord books. The ironic thing about that latter group is that they put together the lyric/chord books hoping to 'get everyone singing and playing from the same page of music' but people's tendency to rely on the 'crutch' of a lyric sheet interferes a lot with their following the song leader.

As for reminding people to watch the lips of whoever is leading the song, this is obviously not something that's done often, but there have been times when the lack of synch became so ridiculous (all sorts of people jumping in with the next line before it was time) that someone did have to say something.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM

Oh, and I meant "watch with your eyes," not "with your ears" (alone).   If you really want to match the phrasing and timing of a singer, that's better than just listening.

But I think you're right about why some people develop idiosyncratic timing. Some are used to singing a cappella with no rhythm accomaniment, and that can work well for some kinds of 'lyrical' song stylings, but it doesn't tend to work well in jam sessions.

BTW, I like the idea of folks maybe switching instruments or picking up unfamiliar ones for Bobert's Bad Band!   I could try my hand at the violin again, many decades after I quit lessons because I sucked so badly at it!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM

The nice thing about those gatherings where someone has printed lyric sheets is that somebody feels good about getting to 'help out'

I'm still relieved not to be invited to that type of gathering. Music that doesn't involve ears doing their fair share of the work isn't very fun for me.
I wonder why groups that just want to sing together don't sit around singing camp songs. That's what I'd do if I wasn't more interested in playing than singing..

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:23 PM

"In that case, I shall continue the habit of a lifetime and play with myself! "

Blink!
Blink!
Blink!

Well, I suppose at least he has the guts to admit it out loud, rather than pretend....

The whole point of 'Classical Music Training' was that you learned to listen and integrate with others - I did those many piano duets and trios and entered all those Eisteddfods for a reason, not just for fun. It's easy to 'solo', but then nobody is able to play with you... what do you think inspired Maelzel to invent his gadget to keep consistent time for solo payers to learn by themselves? It's not a new problem!


"In order for it to be possible for improvers to play alongside better players, those improvers must ultimately be prepared to make room for the next wave of improvers. I've noticed that not everyone appreciates this."

It's called 'ego' => I used to be bad, but now I'm the best here....


QUOTE
"I also agree that people's inability to play in time is weird and enormously weird to me. How can it be so hard?

One thing that Melissa wrote in the first post was "Not a big skill, but it's useful to be able to talk, think and play at the same time." It is a huge skill. I watched last night a number of people playing together at a singaround most of them completely oblivious to the person leading the song - they just played what they knew with no reference to the timing or in some cases the notes; happy in their own little world, playing without listening."
UNQUOTE

I told this story here before - I was having a neck massage at a market, and a guy I knew slightly from attending a 'learn irish whistle' class, started playing nearby, busking - or that is what I think he thought he was doing....

He had been playing for some time, and I had not recognised what he was playing, but it sounded sorta familiar, yet something was disturbing me.... the penny finally dropped - he was just rapidly playing as many notes as he could as fast as he can, no notice of any phrasing, then, when he ran out of breath, he would stop, breathe, and resume.... too many 'join in if you can keep up with the leader' sessions, I think....


QUOTE
Roving Breaks..where the various awful solos take place in different parts of the building on a chaotic schedule? It wouldn't matter if the musicians couldn't hear the main song
UNQUOTE

Actually, it may well be an advantage, because many of these 'B grade soloists' would be in their element... :-) No - I was talking about those actually playing in 'the main song'....



QUOTE
I have achieved unmitigated crapness on a whole heap of instruments. What have I done for "worse" players? Made them sound good by comparison. They love me.
UNQUOTE

When I say that I can play a large number of different instruments "equally badly" they laugh at me, cause they think I'm bad. Then they hear me play, and often come up with all sorts of excuses to refuse to let me play with them, because many of them recoil in horror at just how bad they have discovered they really are in comparison (especially when I say that I haven't played that particular instrument much for - in some cases years - but that is of course, an old 'stage trick'), often just on the one instrument they have 'specialised' on - maybe for decades. I feel so sad for them.... no seriously, not poking fun. You won't, and can't improve, if you really think that you are f***ing brilliant! (Most especially those who think that you don't need to practice - most especially those with the attitude of "we don't need to rehearse together!") All those above wailing about how lousy they are - I'll play with you guys anytime! I miss those net sessions we used to do - even though it only allowed one at a time to play!

As for the "Fooles Troupe Bad Band" idea - sorry guys, it's not really 'original' - have you never heard of
The Portsmouth Sinfonia?

The Portsmouth Sinfonia was an orchestra founded by a group of students at the Portsmouth School of Art in Portsmouth, England, in 1970. The Sinfonia had an unusual entrance requirement, in that players had to either be non-musicians, or if a musician, play an instrument that was entirely new to them. Among the founding members was one of their teachers, English composer Gavin Bryars. The orchestra started as a one-off, tongue-in-cheek performance art ensemble but became a cultural phenomenon over the following ten years, with concerts, record albums, a film and a hit single. They last performed publicly in 1979.

Sigh - I miss them ....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:31 PM

By teaching and playing with my son Greg I have gotten to be on both sides of this equation. I know several people who are better musicians than I am but no wheres near the performer. And I know people who are on the otherside of that equation as well.

I have since stopped worrying which side I was on and enjoyed the benefit of being where I was for each situation.

Do I prefer to teach or learn? I don't think it is possible to separate the two.

Don

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:36 PM

Actually there is a lot of Portsmouth Sinfonia on Youtube....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:36 AM

Hey, this thread is getting seriously interesting.

We have an current oddity in our Friday night group. This man joined us maybe four or five years ago. He is a wonderful singer, comes up with songs that we've never heard of and interprets them in such a way that when we look up the original singer we invariably discover we by far prefer our friend's interpretation.

But.

Sometimes - not always - when the group is playing, especially an instrumental, he suddenly goes into, like, a trance and starts pounding away at his guitar with no apparent regard for rhythm or nuance. It ends up being a really ragged experience. I've noticed that some of the players don't seem to realize what happened but everyone looks confused and unhappy.

Why is that? What is going on in his head?

Years ago I helped found a singers' group that was meant to be in a working environment When we started, we would do a song over again -even several times - with a view toward getting a tight, even pretty, sound. We learned quite a bit, including harmonies.

Then some more people joined the group and the first thing I knew, we had switched to Blue Book singing (leafing through and saying, Oh! Here's another one!) and it was boring and I left.

But I would love sometimes to have a 'do over' when my friend gets carried away. I don't suggest it, because - Heaven forbid! -it would hurt his feelings and he might leave. And I want to avoid that at all costs.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:54 AM

The problem Ebbie, is that most people ASS-U-ME that most other people around them are sane and rational.

Been there, done that, formed The Fooles Troupe.

:-)