Playing with worse musicians

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

FT,
If you saw the way practice is done for the little show/opry I've been working with, you'd understand the sense in just playing!

B,
If I ever happen to be up that way, I might peek in to see what I've been missing.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Susan A-R
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:04 PM

Melissa, I'll be teaching an intro to Quebecois tunes class. I'm hopeful that what you say is true. I'm generally a good multi tasker, having been a professional chef for a while, and I find that I can sing relatively well while playing the fiddle, as long as I'm singing the same melody I'm playing, but even to say "out" or "switch" while playing is tricky.

I wonder if people don't progress because they
a. don't believe they can, and/or
b. don't listen well enough to themselves or others to realize that improvement is needed/possible.
I am fascinated with fiddlers who play fast, know complicated tunes and have been at it for years and are wicked sloppy about pitch and rhythm. I'm kinda like that with spelling and punctuation though, so I shouldn't be so surprised, I guess.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM

Susan,
I have tried and tried to sing while fiddling..that's a very fancy trick!

One thing that fascinates me is that it's common for things to start out fast and keep speeding up..but I don't think I've ever played with anybody that slows down. It's always faster and faster.
I'd like to know why it works that way.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM

My exact sentiments... Speed don't mean good... Back in the 60's and early 70s I was with and around alot of bands that thought that they could compensate for a lack of general talent (or practice) by playing very loud... When I hear some bluegrass bands I'm thinkin' the same thing...

Slow it down a tad, boys... Tell the story, sing the song but slow it down... Ain't a friggin' race we got here...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST,guest, DrWord
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

been offline--which to me really means offMudcat, cause it's the Internet to me--for a couple of years, i think. This thread has been FABULOUS! it's enough to have me logging on again! with my lastborn [aetat. 19] off to university in a few weeks, i'll be using the old email and dropping in to the cafe here. i'll fish out my last email from JoeOffer and get my cookies|membership together. [the BS with the rude "guests" is really terribly puerile, BUT the true 'catter threads like this one make my day. I could at several points in the dialogue have posted "ditto what he|she said" ~ much that resonates with my own experiences, both over the years, and across instruments--i'm a better guitar picker and a worser mandolinist, and a beginner on the tenor guitar, and I love all kinds of making music.   

thanx 4 starting the thread Melissa

DrWord

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:10 PM

Welcome back, DrWord!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:40 PM

What Stringsinger said:"Playing with some so-called better musicians may not work at all if you are dealing with hot-shots and ego-driven players who might be good by themselves but not so hot in a group setting." struck a nerve with me.

"Playing well with others" seems to be a discrete skill from just "playing well." In working with a multi-instrumental music ministry at church, what serves me best is years of listening to bands where musicians worked well with each other. Trying to identify what sounds best in the mix, sometimes means saying "No. I should NOT play on every piece" - another consideration when playing in a group where the ethic leans toward total inclusiveness.

The leader-with-guitar at church is a prime example. While he is great on vocals, guitar or mandolin, his inabilty to stick to the arrangements we'd agreed upon and rehearsed started to drive me to frustrated distraction. He'd ignore the arrangements and make it impossible for some of the others to sound decent. Changing the key, tempo, what the introduction consists of, without any warning to anyone else and messing up singers who are doing their parts strictly by the dots in the hymnal by making up his own harmonies, (different each verse) was throwing us all off. All his fine musicianship didn't add up to being a team player.

Joanne in Cleveland (who plays in the VERY minor league, mostly)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: stallion
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:39 AM

Surely some point is being missed here, there are two things going on that are not the same thing. Firstly people meeting for a social occasion and playing music and singing together and the other to better ones own understanding of the music and instruments(s)to improve ones own competance. The crossover is that to be part of an ensemble that are very good can be breathtaking and exhilarating. I would like to think that I am not so selfish or self indulgent to sing some of the more obscure Non chorus songs at the on a Friday night because the majority of the people want to join in and want, if not need, the same old same old, the more self indulgent stuff is done around the kitchen table or in concert where people come to listen and sing. I personally have had some wonderful moments alongside some of the best but fridays are not for me they are for everyone else and enjoy being part of that, it's a night out!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:07 AM

"is great on vocals, guitar or mandolin, his inabilty to stick to the arrangements we'd agreed upon and rehearsed started to drive me to frustrated distraction. He'd ignore the arrangements and make it impossible for some of the others to sound decent. Changing the key, tempo, what the introduction consists of, without any warning to anyone else and messing up singers who are doing their parts strictly by the dots in the hymnal by making up his own harmonies, (different each verse) was throwing us all off. All his fine musicianship didn't add up to being a team player"

Exactly one of the main problems....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:03 PM

OK, I'll be serious for a while.

I jam with a collection of bluegrass players, and I think the biggest step up from being the "worst" musician was learning what role to play in the jam. I have played guitar for years, but essentially was interested in the instrument as accompaniment for my vocals. I developed, playing alone, a kind of rambunctious boom-chuck strumming style to accompany my rock and roll-based vocals. i have played harmonica and been lead singer in a blues/rock band for years, so that was my background and that's what underscored my confidence level. I carried this over to bluegrass, and it worked alright, mainly because vocally I was stronger than most of the other players. But in a jam, you aren't the lead singer, and you may only have one song out of 12 to sing lead on.
So I adjusted my style, and in the process, learned some things and became a better session player. I learned to play guitar in a rhthmic flat-picking style. My Martin has a very resonant tone quality and good volume in the bass area, and this, coupled with the fact that we only infrequently had a standup bass player present, led to my developing this rhythmic style that underpins the jam songs. In addition, I learned to vary the volume depending on the loudness of the player and instrument taking an instrumental break. I also learned to sing high harmony, which I have a talent for and for which there's almost always a place in bluegrass music.
And playing blues harp in bluegrass? It's like the banjo, in that the sound tends to dominate, so it's best used with disgression.

Actually, it's not exactly like a banjo. The harmonica only sucks half the time. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:44 PM

Ebbie, if you prefer Juneau, that's cool (no pun intended), but if you only found 4 or 5 very mediocre players to jam with in Oregon, you must have had very limited exposure to the musical community (folk included) here.   Portland and Eugene, for instance, both are home to a lot of excellent musicians, and it's not hard to find song circles and jams where they congregate.
We do have our share of rank beginners, and song circles can sometimes be a bit painful, musically speaking, but I find that is the exception, not the rule.
If you come to visit your sister, give us a heads-up and we'll introduce you to some musicians you can learn a lot from. : )

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM

Whether you're learning from the "better players" or the "worse players" around you, you probably won't progress much without practicing.   I think that's a lot of why many people (including me) sometimes stay at a plateau for months or years: they (we?) may participate in jams a couple times a month and hardly ever touch the instrument aside from that.

That's not usually the case with me, since my work involves playing and singing, but it doesn't involve a lot of folk music, so I may progress in my skill in playing other kinds of music while I even regress (from where I once was) in my folk playing.   
There's one group I participate in sometimes where I haven't noticed much, if any, improvement in the musical skill level of the group (in group singing, instrumentals, etc.) over the last 10 years, and I think a main reason for that is that most regulars agree with the attitude expressed by one of the 'leaders': "We don't care what we sound like, we're just here to have fun." (Of course, for some of us it's a lot more fun to play and sing competently together than to fumble around and sometimes produce chaos, but everyone has their own idea of "fun.")   You might think that a group that's been singing a particular song together for over 10 years would, by now, be able to sing in time together, blend voices and instruments, and sound pretty good on that song, but I don't think that happens automatically.

As my vocal coach likes to remind us: "Practice makes permanent."

Merely keep doing what you're doing, over and over, and you very well may not improve at all.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:07 AM

Looks like that was me, sorry....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:29 AM

Genie, thanks. I would love to drop in sometime.

However, on that particular trip (of two months) I was there to take care of my sister who had had heart surgery, so I was pretty much housebound with her. The musicians came to us.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:01 AM

Before you send me my plane ticket, Foolestroupe, be warned that my finest hour was being featured on all the Mudcat Cafe Blue Plate Specials CDs......as the silence between the tracks!

RtS

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie - PM
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM

Hi Genie

I concur with most of what you say, particularly about practice.

Though in my case ( and I think in many others too ) even when practising regularly you will plateau. This can be quite disconcerting and for others even demoralising and can put some players off from playing again.

I still find that when I am trying to master some difficult ( for me ) passage I can take days to work it out and still not be able to play it complete.

Then as if by magic it comes to me and after that I can't understand why I was struggling.

So the moral is stick at it - we are not all geniuses ( sic).

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Susan A-R
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Mikel, someone was also talking with me about the true power of "sleping on it" I was up in Quebec at a music camp, really pushing to learn a lot of material and also trying to improve my Franch. I'd struggle and work to stuff things into my head, then go to bed and wake up with them in my brain and finger tips. I did have to struggle, THEN sleep to get them there.   So: Practice, listening, thinking, being a team player, teaching and learning from each other, all good.

Ah, and there's a wonderful woven hanging in my attic which sums up much of the discussion. It's the Vermont Megabucks Lottery theme. "Please Play Responsibly."

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

... and those silences between the tracks on the Mudcat Blue Plate Special CDs were spot-on professional perfection, Roger! : D

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

Mike2, your experience with practice isn't unusual. Even with laboratory rats, learning curves are seldom smooth and gradual. They often continue making error after error and then suddenly do the task far better, even perfectly. Same goes for us humans running our own mazes (or playing our own guitars - which rats hardly ever master, regardless of how much they practice).

And even when you've seemingly "got it down" in your own living room, you may find your prowess less impressive the first time you try to break out those new licks in a group. Performance anxiety, the added demands on your attention by having to listen to and watch other players, and just the altered ambient environment will all make your job more difficult.
This is why I think if you want to be good at jamming (or at backing up vocalists or other instrumentalists) there's no substitute for playing a lot in those situations.

And I really do think you probably learn the most when you're in a group where there are some "better" and some "worse" than you but where the skill range isn't humongous.
Trouble is, we can't all be smack dab in the middle.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:10 PM

Roger I have those somewhere - but I found that it was easier and faster just to not turn the player on to listen to you over and over .... :-P