BS: Don't ask don't tell

Subject: BS: Don't Ask Don't Tell
From: John P
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM

I'm glad a federal judge struck down the idiotic Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. I hope it withstands the appeals.

What about the military wanting a year to study the issue? Are they really so imcompetent that they haven't already studied it? This issue has been on the table for twenty or thirty years -- and they haven't studied it?? And they can't just use and of the information from every civilised country in the world who don't seem to be having any problems with homosexuals in the military?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:21 AM

Scene: a battlefield, at night. Shells are dropping by the dozens and bullets going past sound like mosquitoes on a summer night in Minnesota. Two guys are in a foxhole, trying to prevent their position from being overrun.

Frank: Pat, have I ever told you you have lovely eyes, and I really dig that little chuckle of yours?
--------------

Seems a bit unlikely, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:36 AM

Don't ask, don't tell was Clinton's thing. I thought it was a chickenshit way to NOT handle the issue then, and that opinion never changed. I think he did it because of military leaders bitching, but they bitched when the services were integrated racially and when women won a larger role. Most of the time, in the military, you can bitch, but you'd better do the job.

The military does not make laws, and aren't the sole developers of policy. When I was in the Air Force, I used to wonder why women weren't allowed to do certain things, and the answer was ALWAYS, "The American public would not stand for it."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: John P
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:43 AM

Jeri, I agree about Clinton. What a double tongue he had! Unfortuneately, sodomy is written into the law. It will take an act of congress or a Supreme Court ruling to make it legal to be a gay soldier. The president could, however, order the military to NOT waste time on study and to get 100% behind changing the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 10:45 AM

"I hope it withstands the appeals."

The feds presented NO witnesses and NO defense....they just gave a brief history of why the policy was begun. There is speculation that they may NOT appeal, and allow the policy to just wither away under the judge's ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM

From the military folks I've talked to about this, there is a feeling that the chain of command cannot handle the bullies in the line... and that the overt christianization of the body military makes such bullying necessary. Sigh. How about, behave or be courtmartialed?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM

Seems to me that the British Navy had similar issues going back in the days of the wooden ships...

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM

ah, yes, on the water, very free...

..and easy...

he he he

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: romanyman
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

swigging in the riggin oh such jolly days hhhmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM

". How about, behave or be courtmartialed?"

That was essentially what Truman said when he ordered integration of the military.
There was to be a meeting to 'discuss' the issue, and the various military brass had prepared their objections....and Harry just walked into the room, announced that 'henceforth, there will be no segregation in the armed forces', and walked out, leaving all the generals with dropped jaws....

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM

Hmmm...the magic of Google:
Here is the exact process Truman went thru..., with a crucial item being:

"January 12, 1949: The Fahy Committee holds its first meeting with President Truman and the Secretaries of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Defense. "I want the job done," the President said, "and I want it done in a way so that everyone will be happy to cooperate to get it done."

Tha may be the meeting I read about.

Many have asked why this would not work fof DADT.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:55 PM

I had a battery clerk in Vietnam who was, if not actually "openly" gay, at least well known to be. He was a crappy clerk, but that had nothing at all to do with his sexual orientation. Officially ending "don't ask, don't tell" will enable those who are mistreated by their peers and superiors because of what is "unofficially" known to begin making official complaints and to have the boom lowered on the perps just as it is in any other case of sexual harassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:57 PM

Yes, or to put it another way: the truth will set you free.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:03 PM

"Many have asked why this would not work fof DADT."
Because they still get kicked out if they ARE asked or DID tell. It's not illegal to ask or tell. I got enough harassment because people believed I was lesbian. If it wasn't against any policy to be truthful about one's sexual orientation, perhaps there wouldn't be those 'passing' to escape the bullies or people's suspicion.

People shouldn't be forced to 'tell', but they also shouldn't be forced to be secretive. Harassment of people who choose to be honest should be against policy, and punished accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM

...and while I was typing, artbrooks said it better and more concisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM

If someone is willing to put his or her life on the line on my behalf, the least I can do is say thank you. I cpuld give a rat`s ass as to people`s sexual orientations. DADT is--as was noted above by Jeri--a poor way NOT to handle the situation. Art`s comment is really incisive. Not much else to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM

I don't entirely understand Mrrzy's comment. That with the military being more aligned with christians, bullying of homosexuals or people believed to be homosexual becomes mandatory?

I stick with the lower case, because following JC doesn't seem to be being implied, and motes and planks are coming to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 05:03 PM

Art... indeed. About time.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

In Canada, while our neighbours to the south were chickening out on this issue, a Human Rights Tribunal decision compelled the nation's employers, including the Canadian Forces, to become blind to sexuality -- in effect, not "Don't ask, don't tell," but "Who cares?"

The result has been a major change in military culture that hardly anybody bothers to talk about.

We still have plenty of knuckle-draggers with unpleasant opinions about "faggots", but they keep their mouths shut at work or face disciplinary proceedings under a fairly draconian harassment policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM

yes, christianity as professed in such circumstances tends to be extremely homophobic. You can't just let it slide and remain a good christian of that ilk, you *have* to try to Save them, or destroy them in the effort.

I like the idea of Obama walking in, saying that Henceforth sexual orientation is a non-issue in the military, and walking out again, without discussion. ***BE*** the commander-in-chief!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

Interestingly, all the adminitration has to do to end this dumb policy is...nothing. If they don't appeal the decision, it stands.
BTW, in re historical parallels:

SAMBO'S RIGHT TO BE KILT
("Private" Miles O'Reilly and S. Lover)

Some tell me 'tis a burnin' shame
To make the naygers fight;
And that the trade of bein' kilt
Belongs but to the white,
But as for me, upon my soul!
So lib'ral are we here
I'll let Sambo be shot instead of myself
On ev'ry day in the year.
On ev'ry day of the year, boys,
And in ev'ry hour in the day;
The right to be kilt I'll divide wid him
And divil a word I'll say.

In battles wild commotion,
I shouldn't at all object,
If Sambo's body should stop a ball
That's comin' for me direct;
And the prod of a Southern bagnet*
So ginerous are we here,
I'll resign and let Sambo take it
On every day in the year.
On ev'ry day in the year, boys,
And wid none 'iv your nasty pride,
All my rights in a Southern bagnet prod,
Wid Sambo I'll divide.

* bayonet

The men who object to Sambo
Should take his place and fight;
And it's better to have a nayger's hue
Than a liver that's wake and white.
Though Sambo's black as the ace of spades,
His fingers a trigger can pull,
And his eye runs straight on the barrel sight,
From under the thatch of wool.
On ev'ry day in the year, boys,
Don't think that I'm tippin' you chaff,
The right to be kilt we'll divide with him, boys
And give him the largest half.

@American @Civil @war @equality @Army
filename[ SAMBOKLT
TUNE FILE: SAMBOKLT
CLICK TO PLAY
RG

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Charmion: "they keep their mouths shut at work or face disciplinary proceedings under a fairly draconian harassment policy."

It's hardly a draconian policy if it can be justified in a free and democratic society, which it has. It is enforced fairly stringently, though--I speak as one who had to investigate harrassment allegations. :(

For most people serving, the attitude to the change in policy concerning sexual orientation was best typified by the petty officer whom reporters buttonholed on his way out of the Halifax dockyard seeking reaction to the statement that homosexuality was now permitted in the Forces: "I don't care as long as they don't make it mandatory."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM

Bill D "Harry just walked into the room, announced that 'henceforth, there will be no segregation in the armed forces', and walked out, leaving all the generals with dropped jaws...."

As a student of history, I am still wild about Harry. The U.S. lucked out when they got him as a successor to FDR.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:38 PM

"I don't care as long as they don't make it mandatory."

LOL! I wish that was the attitude here in the US!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:59 PM

Zero tolerance of ANY bullying should be the order of the day IMHO. Whatever the basis of it happening, there can never be an excuse for it. I know it goes on in the military as I had personal experience of it when I was in. I can tell you it makes your life hell and affects your job due to worry and lack of sleep at times. Being scared each day is not a great way to live a career. At that time a great deal of my bullying happened because I was getting confirmed at church and the flight would have to get up one Sunday to attend. That's how it started. Others were bullied for other reasons. I do not recall any homophobic bullying in the RAF on my camp though.

In the military there is much talk about honour. What honour takes place to bully someone who is weaker than the others? I would have thought honour would lead to a helping hand, not a boot in the back.

Throughout history gay men have laid down and died for their countries. In these more enlightened times, one would hope, sexuality should not be an issue at all but many go out of their way to make it so. It's just another excuse to bully.

The whole idea that gay men or women fancy EVERYONE of their own gender is a fantasy that goes off in the minds of those who fear homosexuality. Of course they don't. No more than hetrosexuals fancy every siingle person of the opposite sex. And, just like most hetrosexuals, gay folks also have controls built in. Being in a foxhole with someone who is gay should bother no-one. Why should there be such upset?

Live and let live because these gay people in the forces are willing to die for what they are doing and believe... but not at the hands of their own comrades

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:10 PM

Forgive me. Having just read through my post again it seems I may be suggesting that gay personnel are in some way weak. Often it is quite the opposite. That aside, I was talking about honour in helping others and did not mean to imply that, when it comes to being gay, there is an inherent weakness. Far from it in fact.

In short, what honour can there be in bullying anyone?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 01:32 AM

Why does anyone HAVE to ask or tell. In the military does it HAVE to matter?? This whole thing is STUPID!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:32 PM

Why should anyone give a bugger anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 12:56 AM

mp, well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:59 AM

Senators block vote on repeal

:-(

So let me get this right. Free speech allows that a man can burn Korans openly in public, with he potential that many more innocent people get killed, but it does not allow for something to be debated that would give freedom to many of those who are willing to lay down their lives for their country?

Good enough to die for ideals but not good enough to be given freedom from persecution becaus of their sexuality?

Another sad day in the fight for true freedom

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:27 PM

mauvepink, the 'don't ask...' measure was attached to military spending bill, to which the Democratic leader attached an unrelated immigration measure. In other words, the Democratic leadership guaranteed the failure of the repeal vote.
Some senators who were in favor of repeal voted no, so the Democrats only had 56 of the 60 votes they needed to prevent the blockage.
NY Times, Sept. 22, 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM

Thanks 'Q'. I knew someone would explain it who understood the system better. It's a great shame in all meanings of the word. Thanks for replying :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:02 PM

Senator Jim Webb of Virginia, who I had come to think of as one of the best new voices in ages voted against allowins the bill to proceed.

Part of his statement is as follows:

"...I continue to believe that the survey of the members of our military, mandated by the Department of Defense in February, should be completed and assessed before the Congress moves forward on any legislative changes to the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. I remain concerned that many members of the military would view as disrespectful a move to pre-empt the process. Secretary Gates and Admiral Mullen have both stated that military men and women in all services and at all levels should be engaged in this process. The Obama Administration agreed with the importance of this process in its May 24 letter, stating that 'ideally the Department of Defense Comprehensive Review… would be completed before the Congress takes any legislative action.'"


I view this as a weasling cop-out. It suggests that ending this policy hinges on some sort of 'consensus' among members of the military....that is, if a whole bunch of homophobes shout loud enough, we have to 'wait' another decade or two for decency to prevail.

I shall send my opinion to Senator Webb.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:14 PM

But don't ask why unrelated measures were attached. Some things are beyond understanding.

Added was an act to repeal a ban on abortions at military hospitals overseas, and a proposal to give young illegals who join the military or attend college a path to citizenship.

(For many years, immigrants who joined and served complete terms in the military were given the opportunity to gain citizenship. I guess this door has been closed or was closed some time ago. I remember it from years ago.)

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM

Adding unrelated measures to bills are standard practice... the Republicans use the tactic far more than the Democrats. It is how 'pork barrel' funds are distributed. This was a test to see how far the Repubs would go to stop DADT.

I'd LOVE to see the entire practice stopped, but it would be harder to mess with than gun control.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM

"Adding unrelated measures to bills are standard practice... I'd LOVE to see the entire practice stopped, but it would be harder to mess with than gun control."

No, it's easy -- just attach it as a provision in an unrelated bill.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM

LOL...hey...why didn't I think of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

@Q: immigrants and others in the US legally who serve in the US military are still granted citizenship on an expedited basis. What this bill would have done is to grant the same to those who have no legal status.

IMHO, the best avenue for this issue is through the courts, since this would clearly establish that nondiscrimination based upon sexual orientation is a basic right, not something granted through legislative action.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Pamphlet on "Naturalization Certificates" for soldiers being discharged following WW1.

"Soldiers who are aliens may be naturalized before being discharged from the army. If they desire to do so, they should notify the U. S. Army Naturalization Officer immediately upon their arrival in Camp."
From- "For Discharged Soldiers of the United States Army WW1" compiled under the direction of Major General W. A. Holbrook U. S. Army, commanding Camp Grant, Illinois." April 25, 1919.
Further details in General Orders No. 146.

The above from http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com

Army recruiters at the time of WW1 would accept aliens who wished to serve and were physically able to do so. How they entered the country was not asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:46 PM

As a point of fact, passing the bill would not have ended DADT--it made it contingent on favorable findings from the Department of Defense Comprehensive Review. And, the US military has been consistently ignoring the DA part---they've been preemptively outing gays.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

"...they've been preemptively outing gays."

And John MCCain is lying thru his teeth about what is happening....he won't even allow a reporter to finish asking a question about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM

Like it or not (and I don't), gays and lesbians are still legally prohibited from service in the US military. If soldier A outs soldier B, and soldier B admits homosexual behavior, than she/he is out of the service. On the other hand, if he/she denies that behavior, and there is no proof, there are no grounds for separation.   There is no prohibition of military service by a celibate homosexual. See this, and scroll down to section 654(b).

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:39 PM

Queer stuff indeed.

Such a bunch of idiots. In this day and age, it's bothersome to put up with these uneducated, ignorant twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: John P
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 07:42 PM

Why isn't the military brass ashamed to admit they haven't studied it yet? Are they idiots? This question has been on the table for 30 years. What HAVE they been doing? Playing ostrich?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:21 PM

No-one should have to deny their sexuality. To be allowed to die for freedom and be given no freedom in return seems hypocritical in the least and entirely bigoted at best

Sad sad state of affairs :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM

So just saying you're homosexual is enough to get you booted from the armed services, huh? Well, it sure as hell wasn't enough to keep 'em from drafting your ass into the armed services forty years ago. The question "Are you a homosexual?" may have been on the induction questionnaire, but if you answered "Yes" they wouldn't believe you unless you were also wearing one of Liza Minelli's dresses.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:57 PM

If you read all of the regulations in artbrooks link, there are at least two or three points that I would consider absurd.
1. Supposedly it could be found that a soldier has engaged in a homosexual act, but he might not be discharged if it is determined that he has no propensity to engage in homosexual acts.

2. He might admit that he is a homosexual, but that is acceptable so long as he has no propensity to engage in homosexual acts.

3. There is no justification for discharging him if he has engaged in homosexual acts, but it is determined that he did so because he wanted to get out of the service.

Give me a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:34 PM

1. If, for example, a male soldier kisses another male soldier passionately while dead drunk, and therefore theoretically not responsible for his actions, he'd probably get off.

2. As I think I noted before, a celibate homosexual is not subject to discharge. It is the act that triggers removal.

3. This one is, I think, obvious.

Please note that these aren't 'regulations', but rather the text of the law itself - in other words, politician-speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM

Bastards. BillD, excellent points.

There's a good series of stories by gays who are in or have been in the military and DADT HERE.

I've been looking for what the cost loss is for a total of over 14,000 members of the military who have been fired since 1994 because of this ludicrous "law."

I am proud to say Colorado's Senator Udall is not done fighting for this repeal...had a great email from him after it fell through this time.

Wonder what Harry Truman would have said to them about the long-drawn out "study." Naw, I don't really have to wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

For those wanting to get at the data from the DADT report, it's downloadable from the Defense Dept. here.

I sent an e-mail to my senator (McCain) yesterday urging him to reconsider his position, but I don't have any great hopes that he will, at least in the near future.

Faux News used the A.P. story, but stuck its own spin on the headlines:

"Pentagon plays down resistance to gays among some"

and

"U.S. Combat Troops Resist 'Don't Ask' Repeal"

Aargh.

I find this an interesting subset of the story: Chaplains v. Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

In the end, change will come, whether by congressional or judicial mandate. I agree with Secretary Gates that it's probably better if they can do it with some planning and preparation, rather than over night.

~ Becky in Long Beach
(registered voter in Arizona)

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

Nothing surprises me, how long did it take for women to be accepted in roles other than passing out donuts. Rap said it best.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:59 PM

No surprises: McCain Calls Pentagon's 'Don't Ask' Study Flawed (NPR).

"I am not saying this law should never change. I am simply saying that it may be premature to make such a change at this time and in this manner," the Arizona Republican told Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen at a Senate hearing Thursday.

What manner would he prefer? Apparently that the courts mandate an overnight change.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

McCain Questions Pentagon on Repeal of Gay Ban (NY Times)

As mentioned in the thread above, would the services have been integrated if the troops had been polled on the topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM

Look, gays, lesbians, bi, and transgender folks are all around you. They are in the armed forces in the trenches with you, and higher up in rank with stars, bars, eagles, and lavish parties. (Oooo, I'd LOVE to be at some of those parties!) They serve you coffee at the coffee bar, they care for your children at the daycare, they teach them in schools, they comfort you in your time of need (in various
capacities), they make public policy as elected officials, they make music for your entertainment, they dance for your entertainment, they attend to your needs in hospital wards, and they do open-heart surgery on you. The only difference between the way things are now and the way things would be if they were "out" is that they would not have to cower in fear of being beaten up, shunned, or held up for blackmail.

The people who oppose "outness" are homophobes, nothing more and nothing less. "Homophobe" is a factual term. It is not a casually tossed about slur, like calling everyone you don't agree with a "nazi." It is not "insane." It is factual. Anyone who is threatened by someone loving someone else in a homosexual way is, on some level afraid of their own sexuality, and whether they might themselves be leaning that way. Furthermore, homophobia, unlike homosexuality, is a disease that can be cured.

One of the very saddest but ultimately happy people I have ever known was a man who was chronically physically ill, depressed, and suicidal. When he finally came out, all of that vanished, and he is now so happy and joyous that it makes ME sick, as someone with more generalized depression. But I celebrate for him every time I hear a discussion about homosexuality.

OTOH, on of the very angriest men I have ever known was someone who everyone around him KNEW that he was closeted and too terrified to come out even to himself because he was such a rabid homophobe, justifying it with cherry-picked "evidence" from religious books of his CHOOSING. I cry inside for him every time I hear a discussion about homosexuality. To wit, notice the number of former virulent homophobes in the Republican party who have endorsed their party's position (position!) on gays in society who have finally come out, and then dropped from sight, curiously enough.

I don't know exactly what McCain's problem is. But it is a problem. That old, straight ahead "maverick" is long dead. And the "new McCain" is sad to watch as he writhes with all his self-contradictions.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 03:08 PM

Two Marines in a hole. Shells exploding, bullets cracking overhead, their feet in mud and their own excrement. One turns to the other and says, "You know, you have the most lovely eyes...."

Two women in a field hospital, in triage, deciding who among the incoming wounded gets immediate medical care, who can wait, and who won't make it no matter what. They're covered in blood and gore. "Say Flo," says one, "I'll bet you'd look great in leather."

C'mon and lets get serious. If I (a former infantryman) am in a tough spot, I want someone I can depend upon and I don't care if he or she is a coprophiliac or gets kicks from bothering chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:07 PM

a couple of cartoonists' take on it

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:33 PM

Fortunately, not everyone's falling in line behind McCain: Key Senators Appear Open To Ending 'Don't Ask' (NPR):

... at least two key committee Republicans whom Democrats have seen as potential votes for repeal — Susan Collins of Maine and Scott Brown of Massachusetts — appeared open to supporting an end to the ban. So did Sen. Jim Webb, the only committee Democrat who voted against repeal when the measure was added to the defense bill earlier this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:31 PM

A US Judge has allegedly come out with the comments and it was seen by quite a few before some sections were removed. If the reports are true - and an internet search just revealed several threads on his proposal - then it seems beyond belief that such suggestions should be tolerated.

It is sickening on several fronts, not least about the thought that by raping a gay female with a penis it could in some way 'cure' her (lesbianism is not a disease), that it is suggested that men within the army (who are supposed to have honour) would want anything to do with such a crime, that a judge could even come close to suggesting such a heinous act, and that in free speech his comments could be found acceptable.

The whole idea that all a gay woman needs is a decent penis and she will 'turn' is not new. It has been put around for as long as lesbians have been known. It would be complete and utter silliness were it not that is was believed by so many. That aside, who could in any way consider rape to be a way in which a 'cure' could be made?

What of his comments too about soldiers with "lithe naked bodies"? It's quite amazing that he should describe them as such and this is not usual language from your average man is it?

Are gay people such a threat to others that comments like those above will be and can be tolertaed by a voting public? Would such an idea win or lose votes in the US? I well imagine if such a thing were said by a Judge in the UK there really would be outcry and action from 'the powers that be' and in the least I suspect they would lose their job.

Is it me or does anyone else find the above totally shockinmg and unacceptable? I admit to reading it a couple of times to make sure I did not get it wrong. I had it right first time and have to say I was quite sickened by it. My greatest hope is that it is totally wrong and he has been misquoted or someone has deliberately posted it wrong. On first glance this does not seem to be the case so if it is true.... may heaven help us all from judiciary with such views

Don't ask... don't tell

You can die for us but you must not have any sexuality we do not agree with. You can defend our laws and die for us but....

Wait a minute. I thought rape was against the law?

:(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:13 PM

Sickening and frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM

McCain had a serious senior moment today when he said sic
"I served in the military, I know better!, Gates never served in the military and therefore doesn't know what he's talking about!"

(I think he is really losing it due to stage 1 Alzheimers)


Not only did General Gates serve, he served condordently with McCain in active duty and beyond.


Worse than that McCain said" So what you have all the studies I asked for. You never asked the service men what they want done about dADT.

The Admiral of the navy repsponded, "Anyone in the military knows that the military has never put out a referendum on policy or orders to its servicemen and women. Can you imagine if we asked soldiers if they felt like they might want to take hill 51, or when they would like to go on leave?

To which McCain replied "Who took my tapioca pudding, I set it down right here and now its gone."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:39 AM

I cleaned for a very nice old man, who had served in the Second World War. I dusted his Air Medal every other Saturday. He was pleasant, well educated, and gay as a three dollar bill. My (male) housemate took over for me one day. The old man, who, generally left me alone, felt a need to supervise poor Don as he did the kitchen floor. Don was more amused than anything.
The point is, this gent lied about his sexual orientation to serve his country.
Apparently a great many gay men did, and still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM

In the interests of accurate data, Mr. Gates served two years in the Air Force, 1967-1969, and rose to the exalted rank of lieutenant. He spent most of his government career as a spook.

The "judge" mentioned above is one Joe Rehyansky, who is a part-time county magistrate in Tennessee. This is, in the US, very different from a judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM

Thanks art. I did not realise there was such a difference between the term Judge in the US compared to the UK. Even so. I suspect he would now be looking for a job had he said it in the UK!

One of the big things about DADT is that STI's can go untreated in fear of being 'outed' by medical staff within the forces if certain STI's are found that could generally only be transmitted by a certain act. It still seems incredulous that grown men and women fighting for their country in the so-called 'free world' can be treated in such a way.

These people are not only asked to be brave and heroic, as all hetrosexuals are, but also show great bravery in living the way they do in the fear they are under of being discovered.

In the UK the problem does not arise. If you do your job then that is all the armed forces are interested in (on paper anyway). It has not always been the case I know but at least it is a step in the right direction.

Thanks for 'correcting' my ignorance in any case

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

Why do right wingers spend so much time and energy worrying about how other people express their love?

Funny you should ask, The answer, as I see it, is, FEAR. All hatred is based in fear. Those meatheads who hate anything that is different from them are scared that they may have homo tendencies and they over compensate for it.

Imagine a big tough Marine who has to stand there and watch a gay guy do the same job is he does and just as well! What does that say about the difficulty of his job?

"I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell)

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,seth in Olympia
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:10 PM

I sure met a lot of gay men in the U.S. Air Force between 1966-70-some were enlisted as I was as a way of avoiding a combat role in Viet-Nam, others were serious lifer, soldier, warrior types-some supervised me and some I supervised and others I just knew or knew about. Great education for me. I met many more gay ex-marines and rangers when I lived in Oakland in Berkeley in the 1970's

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM

k... ""I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell)"

Takes a BIG Marine to frighten a horse! >;-)

Sorry... I had to. It's in my statement of duties and qualifications as an understudy.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

House passes repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'

By The Associated Press
Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 -- 5:39 pm

The House voted Wednesday to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell policy that for 17 years has forced gays desiring to serve in the military to conceal their sexual identity. The 250-175 vote propels the issue to the Senate for what could be the last chance for now to end the 1993 law that forbids recruiters from asking about sexual orientation while prohibiting soldiers from acknowledging that they are gay.

It's "the only law in the country that requires people to be dishonest or be fired if they choose to be honest," said Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/house-passes-repeal-dont-tell/

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:07 AM

Land of the free, they call it. Someday, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

"Now is the time for us to act," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and "close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation."

"It is up to the Senate to consign this failed and discriminatory law to the dustbin of history," Solmonese added.

It could be the land of free in so many simple ways that SHOW the true freedom of it's citizens. I would put this alongside being equally as important as ratifying a nuclear arms treaty with Russia.

What is there to protect if the people themselves are not protected and free from oppressions?

I am moved to remember some of the Gettysburg Address. The Address itself always touches me when I read it. I always find the final paragraph most poignant... But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. (in recent conflicts read men as man & women)

So many have given their all. Maybe it is time for their nation to give them back their freedoms to be who they are and live as they need to?

I wish the repeal the very best of success so that the soldiers who are gay and fighting for our freedoms can live in freedom themselves.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:36 PM

Beautiful post, mauvepink.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:41 PM

Yes, 999... HEAR HEAR mauvepink!!! Freedom, liberty and justice for all... we hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM

Thank you but the words are hardly mine. However, without such actions as need to be taken to release these servicemen/women to have to lie or be disgraced, they are only words. They are GREAT words but what would give them great validity is action.

President Lincoln could not have known when he delivered the Address that he would have to die for doing what he believed in. His wonderfully powerful words reach out across the generations and decades that have passed since his assasination to mean as much now, I feel, as they they did back. Actions have always spoke louder than words however.

mp

NB I mention servicemen/women as I have mentioned soldiers previously. Of course, I mean all those in the military and have now corrected my oversight I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM

"Don't ask, don't tell" is a stupid policy. When it was put into place, I thought it was a stupid policy.

I served with gays and lesbians, but most of the time, I guessed. No way I would ask anyone. It was none of my business, but my friends might have volunteered the information if not for the fact that I could have been called as a witness in a court martial. "Don't ask, don't tell," but if we find out, you're screwed.

The policy gives bullies a license to torment gays and lesbians. When a person is forced into a closet, it makes being dragged out a serious threat. It's a stupid policy that forces a person to pretend to be someone they are not, and THEN expects them to be honest and honorable, to take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. How can you trust someone who can pretend to be something they aren't? It's a stupid policy.

What reality was like when I was in was that people who would accept gays and lesbians in civilian life, did so in the military, even if THEY had to pretend not to know or suspect anything. The people who would have been homophobes and bullies in civilian life, but who at least acted fair because THE LAW SAID THEY HAD TO had, in the military, a free rein to persecute people they perceived as gay or lesbian, because there was, and IS, no protection for them.

Don't ask/don't tell is a STUPID policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

In WW2, when I was inducted, a large, frog-like officer was at the end of the medical examination line. When I reached his position, he gave me a dead-eyed stare and asked "Do you like girls?"

I had a couple of physical shortcomings, so like many others in the same boat, I was stamped "Army Only" and was eventually assigned to the Medical Corps. I had answered "Some of them" to the doctor, but I think I would have reached the same destination if I had said "No". A fair number of homosexuals were in the Army Medical Corps. I don't recall that it affected, or interferred with, their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

Yeah, but we gotta keep Redneck Nation happy, don't we??? After all, they do have the collective intelligence to follow Boss Hog's directions in the voting booths... Not much more other knowing how how to tie a gay to a pickup truck and drag him down dirt roads until he is dead... Lotta intellect there, Bubba...

Seriously, when we have laws that condone bullying then we shouldn't complain when something like that, which did happen in Texas BTW, occurs... I mean, garbage in = garbage out... Look at what the brown shirts did??? I mean, the US has it's own brown shirts and DADT is just one more way to keep them busy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:54 PM

Bigotry is alive and well on the left as well as the right...

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

I only ever had one friend that was "openly gay", as far as could be back then. It was over 25 years ago. He was a Proctor in residence at uni and an extremely intelligent student from England. He was a well respected scholar and member of The Church Of England (he was the organ player... sorry... we made a lot of jokes about it back than and he laughed along). He taught me a lot about his problems and I overcame my childish childhood teachings that homosexuality was evil.

Things have advanced over the past few decades and now the US government seems poised to join reality... as MT said, "Someday, maybe."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM

Yer correct, Jeri... We on the left do hate stupidity, greed, dumb wars, exploitation, the "ism"s and mean people...

Guilty as charged...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:46 PM

Three Republicans today joined the repeal side of the potential votes in the Senate.

"Senator Susan Collins, the bill's one Republican sponsor, has been joined by three other Republican senators — Scott P. Brown of Massachusetts, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Olympia J. Snowe of Maine — in supporting the measure."

"Along with the backing of 54 Democrats and two independents, the Republican support is enough to push the measure to the necessary 60-vote threshold. Another Democrat who backs repeal, Ron Wyden of Oregon, announced Thursday that he would undergo surgery for prostate cancer on Monday and be absent for votes starting Friday. Only one Democrat, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, has declined to support the measure.

"The bill's greatest obstacle is no longer votes, but the clock."

Bid to Repeal 'Don't Ask' Law Draws Support in Senate

Fingers crossed.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:03 AM

So this could be a great Christmas present for the American people to give to their Servicemen/women?

I really hope so :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM

All day I have hoped for word, either here or from the NYT. Friday night and we have been left... Bummer!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:11 PM

What I have never understood is why this is any of the military`s damned business, or the country`s for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:22 PM

The military seem to have to stick their nose into everything! And then proceed to make a mess of it all. They seem to think they rule the world and until they get a clear message that this is not true....   From the first stone thrown by one cave man at another...???

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:35 PM

. . . or cave woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM

I really needed a good laugh! Thank you! I actually thought about that while posting and decided to leave it at man. Leave it to you....

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM

Why do Republicans think it makes sense for the army to have homosexuals in it as long as
a)they don't admit it and
b)nobody asks them to admit it
?
So they can go on pretending that homosexuals don't serve in the army? And we're supposed to go along with this delusion??
I mean, you either bar gays from the armed services, or you don't. If you let them serve, what's the purpose of "don't ask, don't tell"?

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE??

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:49 PM

Oh, I don't think it is you, EJ, who is missing something!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:00 PM

It's the establishment that is missing a pair of balls. Stand up for freedom and equality for all you buncha old hipocritic idiots... he says to those that have deaf ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:12 PM

Too true, gnu. The Republicans have no conscience and the Democrats have no spine.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:18 PM

Republicans, Democrats, whatever. Anybody who thinks this makes sense is a moron. I'd much rather be in a foxhole with Ru Paul. At least I know he has a damn brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM

When I was doing security clearance investigations (1974-2002), I had to follow up if people alleged that the person I was investigating was a homosexual. We didn't ask upfront whether the person was homosexual, but we were supposed to follow up if witnesses said so. Gee, I hated doing that. If a witness disclosed that the subject was a homosexual, we were supposed to ask if he/she had any reason to hide it, or if there was anything about the person's sexual conduct that could make him subject to blackmail.
There was only one case where I thought the issue might have been important - that person ended up working for the Americans in a country where the culture was very hostile to homosexuals, and and I wondered whether the person's homosexuality could have put him in danger. Apparently, it didn't.
Oh, there was a second case - an employee of the Border Patrol who had a series of same-sex lovers. All of these lovers came from foreign countries on temporary visas and all were just barely over the legal age of 18, considerably younger than the agent himself. That one really made me wonder.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:18 AM

They're both a bit creepy

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

If gay people were allowed to be open and out then blackmail could never be a threat on their sexuality. Yet another good reason for allowing openess.

All this said, though, and it is still beyond me what anyone's sexuality has to do with anyone else. Who knows what hetrosexuals get up to legally and who cares? It should be the same for gay people and nothing less.

Take away the means to blackmail someone and you can have no blackmail!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

It has passed the Senate! Now it has to be "certified by" the president, the joint chiefs of staff an the Secretary of Defense, all of whom have previously agreed to it.   Sooner the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM

Actually, the President signs it and the military implements it - the JCS don't have a vote.

About time!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM

Idoubt Obama will hesitate a minute in signing this repeal into law. About time indeed!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM

Yay! Thanks for posting the good news

This is a great day for true freedom

Am so happy for all those whose life it will make better :-)

Happy Christmas!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

WOW! I am so happy to hear this good news!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM

Wow. Squeaked by at 65-31. It's crazy how these things have to be done, but it actually got done! Whew!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:37 PM

!00 up on here and well up on the vote. It's brilliant!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

As reported in the news, the Senate bill that just passed includes a requirement that implementation cannot begin until the Secretary of Defence and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff certify that there's "no problem," so there's still the possibility of significant foot dragging, if not obstruction.

It appears that the appropriate key offices have endorsed removal of the old policy, but it remains to see, in complete form, what the new policy really will be; and I'd hate to see existing affected people "out" themselves prematurely and get hit with "minor conditions, exclusions, and special considerations" in the policy that eventually results.

Been in the military, and worked with them from the outside for a long time, so I think I'll suggest cautious optimism until the feathers settle. A discreet smile seems justified at this point, although for now all we have is the beginning of the end of it.

Long overdue.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM

How the BBC is reporting it in the UK

Fingers crossed!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:31 PM

Ask what??? You mean is someone immoral enough to shoot another human to death, and still likes it up the ass?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:02 PM

so glad we are over this!

Wish for headlines- american gays mob recruiting stations trying to server their country

go for it

glad to have you

so glad that we are now united

corporal klinger is obsolete

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:57 AM

I remember my father talking about the first Black replacements assigned to his battery in Korea in 1952, and how his first sergeant felt it necessary to beat the crap out of them so that they would "know their place". That was two - or maybe three - generations ago. I expect that the people who will have problems with this will be a very small number of senior enlisted people (sergeants), as well as those who have trouble with anyone who isn't exactly like them. Ten years from now, we will all wonder...what was the big deal all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM

Hooray - it's all over .................(?)

Pentagon: Lifting gay ban to take time

Defense Secretary Gates vows immediate action to implement change

NBC News and news services updated 12/18/2010 7:21:56 PM ET

WASHINGTON — "Don't ask, don't tell" will remain military policy awhile longer despite a historic Senate vote on Saturday to overturn it.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Saturday he welcomed final congressional passage of the Pentagon policy's repeal but it will take time to implement.

"Once this legislation is signed into law by the president, the Department of Defense will immediately proceed with the planning necessary to carry out this change carefully and methodically, but purposefully," Gates said in a statement obtained by NBC News.

Leading the effort will be Dr. Clifford Stanley, Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness and a retired Marine Corps major general and infantry officer, Gates said.

The legislation says the president and his top military advisers must certify that lifting the ban won't hurt troops' fighting ability.
New policies and regulations must be "consistent with the standards of military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention of the Armed Forces," Gates said.

After certification, there's a 60-day waiting period for the military.

"As I have stated before, I will approach this process deliberately and will make such certification only after careful consultation with the military service chiefs and our combatant commanders and when I am satisfied that those conditions have been met for all the Services, commands and units," Gates said.

Meanwhile, he told troops, current law and policy will remain in effect.

"Successful implementation will depend upon strong leadership, a clear message and proactive education throughout the force," he said.

Under the expected procedure, the Defense Department will conduct servicewide training and education for all active duty, reserve and national guard forces, and make whatever adjustments in procedures and facilities are necessary, NBC News said.

A servicewide memo will be sent instructing any gay or lesbian service members not to openly declare their sexual orientation because they could potentially be subject to separation from the military, NBC News said.

[Sounds a lot like business as usual to me(?)]

John

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM

I just read a headline from a German newspaper, which told me that "US Soldiers are now allowed to be gay". That is wonderful, is it not? From now on US service personnel will be able to decide which sort of sexuality nature predestined them to? Shucks, I'm getting all confused...

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:45 AM

"As I have stated before, I will approach this process deliberately and will make such certification only after careful consultation with the military service chiefs and our combatant commanders and when I am satisfied that those conditions have been met for all the Services, commands and units," Gates said.

They could have done all that while they have been waiting for this to come about. Procrastination will not only be the thief of time here I fear.

As an aside I am still totally perplexed by how so many people still see someone's sexuality as their business. This facination with anal sex seems to be a product of other's sexual imaginations as a great many gay men never take part in 'taking it up the ass' as is so often quoted. Such comments also deny that gay women are also part of our military services and it is tantamount to singling out one facet of a whole diverse set of behaviours that humans express.

As John Steinbeck writes in "Cannery Row"... "The remarkable thing," said Doc, "isn't that they [stinkbugs] put their tails up in the air: the really incredibly remarkable thing is that we find it remarkable. We can only use ourselves as yardsticks my brackets.

I will not go into the morality of wars and killing people here. That is way too way too far a jump for this thread. Like not all gay men take part in anal sex, not all servicemen/women kill. But I will say this. If people can kill other men and women, they sure as heck should be allowed to love them too!

Back on Cannery row... "He can kill anything for need but he could not even hurt a feeling for pleasure."

Just some thoughts

mp

---

Thread closed to avoid splitting the discussion. Please post on the continuation thread (click). Thanks. -Joe Offer-