Children left in cars: 2 incidents

Subject: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:35 AM

I have to share something most disturbing to me as it should be to everyone.

Several years ago I was at the local Post Office and I parked next to a nice new shiney black luxury car. A baby was in the car alone in a child car seat. The windows were tinted and I bent down to look in and see if I had missed seeing an adult. Nope. The baby, around one year of age, was alone. So I stayed and watched over it a good five minutes until the mother came out. I can't recall exactly what I said to her but it was along the lines that you can't run off and leave a child alone like that. It wasn't hot weather but this could have been a prime case for child abduction.

The response I got was not a kind "thank you" for caring for my child or "I'll never do that again!" No, I was cussed out and told to mind my own business. Does that hit any of you as odd?

So, just recently there I was at the PO again. A young mother in a big white SUV pulled in to a parking space right next to mine at the same time I parked. In the back seat was her maybe 9 month old child strapped into a car seat. I started to go in but then I heard her greet another woman whom she apparently knew as she stepped to the front of the truck. She did a quick look back at her baby and told the other women "It's OK. I'll just be a minute." I stopped in my tracks and leaned up against my front fender to watch over her child and to see just how long her minute was. I thought about how long it would take someone to walk over (the windows were part way down) open the door, unfasten the belts or cut them, lift the carrier out walk to a nearby vehicle and stuff the carrier to the floormat, start up and drive off. I figured that someone could get it done with ease and was half way thorugh the senario again when she walked out. She kind of looked at me funny and then with a little alarm as she realized that I was probably glowering at her as I looked from the baby to her and back a couple of times.

I spoke up and said "Oh that's OK. I just figured that someone ought to watch your baby while you were inside." Now she was shocked. And angry! At me! I turned and got back in my truck. I realized I had lost a piece of mail I intended posting, somewhere in the cab. As I was poking around under my seat I heard her power window going down so I turned toward her as she sat in her SUV. "I don't appreciate you criticizing my parenting." she said angrily. I said "I don't care what you think. You put your child in danger and anybody could have snatched him while you were gone." With that I turned my back to her and kept looking for my missing mail. She sat there for a long time and I know she had to be thinking hard about what had just happened or better, what hadn't happened. She was still sitting there when I pulled out to return home and look for my missing mail.

So, what do you think? Did I handle it right? Did I expose myself to possible recriminations? Should I have said anything? Should I have reported the incident? Or should I have just been a silent Guardian Angel?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:36 AM

Sorry, wrong section!

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:30 AM

I think the odds of anything adverse happening are so minute that there was probably no need for you to be so very careful. On the other hand the responses of the mothers were very rude.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:04 AM

My first thought, as the mother (though I would never have done such a thing as leave my kids alone like that) would be to think maybe you were some kind of threat to my child...in a sudden confrontation like that, logic can go out the window. Were I you, and have been in one situation, I would have called the authorities at once. I did so after watching a whole family get out of a car to go shopping in a big store ala WalMart. All of the children were old enough to walk, but one. That one, an infant, was left in a hot car with some of the windows down, the doors unlocked. The police take such things very seriously and were out straight away. It happened one other time, too, and I kept watch until the cops arrived.

It's a sad state when we might have to be concerned about our own altruistic actions, but no one should ever get away with leaving a child unattended, imo. As far as I am concerned you did a good deed. The mothers probably reacted out of fear and embarrassment.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:36 AM

Now on the other hand I would think alerting the police unnecessarily intrusive. I have had tannoy messages put out (citing the vehicle number) to alert (with luck) the owners of dogs appearing distressed after being left in cars, and I would have thought that a better bet ("Will the owner of car number ..... please go to their vehicle as their dog appears distressed") and that might have been the best of all worlds: no confrontation; with luck a positive outcome; and no police.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

Nope, over here, if one sees a pet locked up in a car on a hot day with windows cracked open or not, the cops and animal control are usually called. I used to just put a little postcard under their windscreen/shield wipers which the Humane Society sold, but here in the high altitude the sun is even stronger and more deadly to children and pets. There is no time to mess around with notifying the store and hoping the person who left their pet that way will care enough to acknowledge the call.

There's a good chart, lower down on THIS PAGE, which shows how quickly a car becomes an "oven;" even at an air temp of 82 degrees, it heats up to 119 in a car after just a few minutes and that chart is for sea level. In some places it is even illegal to leave your dog in a hot car, just as it is for children.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:36 PM

No animals or children should be left in an unattended vehicle for any reason. The driver might meet with a accident away from the car and then what?

I don't care how short my leave from a car, my kids under the age of 12 were not left alone in it. But I did have issues with strange women following me and my kids around in shopping malls and one even approaching hysteria at a Pizza Hut in Florida over Andie when she was 5 years old.

Remember once waiting on a platform in Chelmsford for train and a appx 9 year old boy was sitting on the edge sticking his legs out over the rails. I pointed this out to the mother who promptly swore at me and told me to mind my own business. So I went and alerted one of the platform security, who promptly ignored me.

What I should have done was rung the police and social services. What I wanted to do was push that mother off the platform and bolt with that kid. He must be about 15 and a proper yob by now, if he survived.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:54 PM

'extracts from my State govt's Kids in Cars Fact Sheet.' It also lists cases of distressed children rescued from cars & excuses carers gave for leaving the child in the car - only gone a minute! (children drown, scald & fall in "a minute" & cars are stolen in "a minute") to can't afford childcare, so left child in car for 4 hour shift.

• On a typical Australian summer day, the temperature inside a parked car can be as much as 30-40 degrees hotter than the outside temperature i.e. on a 30-degree day the temperature inside the car could be as high as 70 degrees.

The legislation

The Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act was proclaimed in December 2000. However, chapters 1 and 14 were
proclaimed in April 2000, including section 231 which covers the section about children left in cars/unattended. The maximum penalty
is $22,000. Section 231 of the Act reads:

A person who leaves any child or young person in the person's care in a motor vehicle without proper supervision for such period or in such circumstances that:

(a) the child or young person becomes or is likely to become emotionally distressed, or

(b) the child's or young person's health becomes or is likely to become permanently or temporarily impaired, is guilty of an offence.

-------------

We often get reports of children locked in cars - Mum who left child in car made a "very stupid mistake" this one has a pic of the child & some interesting comments from readers.

One of my friends is a nurse & saw a distressed child in a car last summer. After removing it, mother kept talking on her mobile/cell phone & ignored my friend's advice to take the child into the air conditioned shop she was standing beside to remove it's clothes & sponge it down.

Keep up the good work, Slag.

sandra

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 12:55 PM

It is incredible to me what people do with their children.
I was at a church rummage sale when a woman came in reporting that a new born had been left in a locked car. It was brutally hot that day.
The church had a speaker system and announced the license plate and description of the car. No response. So the police were called.
They broke into the car and removed the baby who seemed to be OK. The mother showed up - she had ignored the announcement because she was busy shopping and didn't expect they would call the police. I am not sure what happened after that.
One day in a huge shopping mall, a young mother and father refused to carry their 3 year old. The little boy was crying and exhausted. He simply stopped and they went on without him. I waited and watched. They were gone. So I picked him up, calmed him down and went looking for them
I found them in the mall arguing. When they saw I had their son they were ready for a fight. I simply said "He's tired and so are you. Maybe it's time to go home and get some rest." They took him and left - a bit embarrassed. Two kids with a baby and not a clue. Very sad.

There is reality show new this season I think where they put people in situations and watch how they react. One episode was a well dressed woman leaving her baby in the car while she went off shopping. Some people mumbled and left. Some stopped her before she had a chnace to leave the car. Some were outright threatening to her. Some called the police. Interesting that so many men including a homeless man were the most proactive.

Children disappear every day even from safe little country neighborhoods. I can't imagine how mailing a letter could be more important than that child's safety.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 03:52 PM

Those idiots should be sterilized.

I would not hesitate to call the Police and I would testify against the idiot who did it.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

You did right, Slag.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

You don't need to go nuclear straight away.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:35 PM

VT... "No animals or children should be left in an unattended vehicle for any reason. The driver might meet with a accident away from the car and then what?"

True. What is also true is that the intelligence of many human beings is exceptionally low. Just look at the recounts here in this thread, regarding their own children. Shocking, innit?

It's a fact... most (at least 50%) people are stunned as me arse. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

I could point out examples here at The Café but that would not be an intelligent thing to do. >;-)

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

Thank you all. BTW, Downunder body temp is read as 37C, not 98.6F if you didn't already know.

I thought about calling the police. Then I thought about their response time and about forever stigmatizing this person. I like to think that if she has any decency at all she will eventually come to the recognition of her foolishness. The other side of that debate is: what if she isn't thoughtful or caring? Have I further endangered that child by NOT alerting authorities? It's a judgment call and I suppose there is no real way of knowing that you made the right call. Like most things, you go with your gut and trust God for the rest.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 06:58 PM

Isn't the downunder temperature the same as temperature of the rest of the body?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 10 - 07:46 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: open mike
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 02:13 AM

the dangers of heat problems seem more possible than kidnap, etc. but
both are good reasons not to leave any living thing in a car..human
or otherwise...un=attended.http://dailymail.com/policebrfs/201009230580
there is a cavern near here that offers tours, Shasta Cavern. they put in a dog care area after having animals die in the parking lot while
their people were touring the (nice, cool) cave. it often gets near 120 degrees in near by Redding in the summer. the cave stays at 58 degrees.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

Not all cases of unattended child is intended. Evidently child / car deaths have increased alarmingly across all socio-economic groups in the last several years.

http://www.divinecaroline.com/22354/101756-locked-in-child-car-deaths

If you are a harried parent off your normal schedule of dropping child at day care. Memory lapse is becoming quite common. How horrible it must be for those families.

But there is no excuse for taking the child along and leaving in car while you run errands, visit friends. And this should be punished very stringently, whether or not it resulted in harm to the child.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:03 AM

It's a hard one with such young children involved, if someone nipped next door even for 5 minutes leaving a child in a cot at home or on holiday it would be frowned on i.e. Madeline McCann. At least being shouted at will give the mother food for thought and make her think about her actions in future.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Hmmm.....


Seems that you have a chip on your shoulder about 'Big Shiney cars' and 'Big SUVs'.

If I had come out of a shop and found someone peering at my child inside the car you would probably be walking home with a broken nose.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM

I wonder how many people know that the normal body temperature for a dog is 100 degrees to start with?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:05 AM

GUEST Silas ~~ but you beg the question, don't you? The point is, would your child have been left alone like that in the car, for anyone to peer at, in the first place? If not, simmer down. If so, then for shame!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:46 AM

Leaving Kids unattended for 5 min in a car, particularly a car with heavy tinted windows will do no harm at all - get real.

Too many bloody busy bodies about for my comfort.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

If you have that little regard for the safety and comfort of a child then you deserve no comfort yourself.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:32 AM

Rubbish.

The child was probably asleep, it wouldd be much more comforable being left alone than woken to spend five min in a shop under its mothers arm and to be strapped in again. As for saftey, you would not break into one of these cars in five min - no way!

Lets all stop being such PC aresholes and start living in the real world eh?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:51 AM

A car if it's being stolen can be broken into in about 30 seconds. Do you have any idea how many times people have stolen cars with kids asleep in the back seat? Only to find them later and dump them? That's the real world.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:54 AM

Hardly ever. THAT'S the real world.

You may be able to smash a side window if you have come equipped, but that is it.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM

There is always the off chance that an infant could choke on milk apart from anything else or the engine catching on fire. It seems remote but strange things have happened. If a mother continues to choose to still take that risk then that is her fault.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:12 AM

Wasn't there recently a case, where a grandmother left young children she was supposed to be minding, in car while she ran a quick errand? She had a stroke while away from the car. She survived. The kids didn't.

You just don't know what might happen to you when you are away from the car. Struck by another car, slip on wet floor and knocked out cold. No one will assume you left children unattended in your car. Why is that? Because most people would not leave children unattended anywhere.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM

And, of course, there is the possibility of the car being struck by lightning at the same time the burglar is smashing the window and the grandmother is having a stroke whilst sitting in sweeny todds barber chair waiting for a shave, all just as the earthquake hits and a bee enters the car through a crack in the air-conditioning, stinging the child who dies from shock any way.

Yep, it could all happen....

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:44 AM

OK, Silas, you just go on being a smartarse if that is what turns you on ~~ & just observe how many of the rest of us are agreeing with you...

~M~

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 10:57 AM

VTam, interesting link. I have a hard time believing people could be so effected by just a small change in routine and whose kid is "sleeping quietly" in the backseat whilst on the way to somewhere? Jeepers, my dau. and I both used rearview mirrors to keep an eye on my grandson from the day we took him home; we were always aware of him being in the backseat. I know people make mistakes, but such a major one as caused by what that article states is a bit much, imo. It's almost as though it's making excuses for something for which there is no excuse.

This all reminds me of a story which came out when my kids were little. Some parents wanted to look at a new car in a showroom which had floor-to-ceiling windows. They parked their old car right in front of the windows with their sleeping toddler and their Irish setter (dog)in it. In they went, looking at the new car, etc. for a few minutes, glancing up every now and then to check on their child. At one point they looked up and saw their old car was on fire. Before they could get to it, they saw the dog jump out, stand on his hind legs with his front paws on the edge of the window, then reach in and grab the child by the clothing and drag the kid to safety. It was only because of the dog and the fact that back then safety seats were virtually unheard of, (NOT that that's a good thing,) but in this that the child's life was saved. Lucky for the parents they had a smart dog, but you can bet they never left their child in a car again.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM

Smartarse? No, not really. Just a realist.

Believe it or not, I am not unduly concerned about how many anal retentives on this thread agree with me or not, I would rather live in a world without snooping busybodies and take the miniscule risk than live like you lot appear to want to.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM

So go do so, if you truly are not concerned about the rest of us and have fun on your way.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:10 PM

If you would leave the rest of us to get on with life without your intrusive snooping, we would.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:53 PM

LMAO

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:08 PM

Although Silas's scenario was (purposely) pretty far over the top, let me be the Devil's Silas's advocate for a moment here.

About the grandma VT mentioned, who is said to have left the children in the car and gone to do an errand, only to have a stroke and the kids died, presumably (given the ongoing subject of this thread) from heat in the car. If you're worrying about possible tragic results from what "might" happen, she equally might have taken the children (didn't say how many, but let's say two) along, had a stroke in the middle of a busy street and the kids run to her, calling "Grandma! Grandma!" and get run over and killed by traffic, or some other highly unlikely scenario.

Yes, an adult driver should take steps to protect his/her powerless passengers, but if you're hanging it on all kinds of unlikely but possible mishaps like having a stroke, you will NEVER arrive at a foolproof 100% safe line of behavior. Even if grandma stays at home with the kids, with the doors all locked against a possible burglar, there might be a fire, or a satellite may fall on her house, so the kids might be better (or just as badly) off with grandma out in the car.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:26 PM

I used to work retail. I got to watch parents and small children a lot. I'm convinced that many modern parents, who were plopped in front of a TV at age 3, don't know much about kids or the world.

Let us take the case of a small child left in a car. Let's assume that the child is old enough to toddle. We don't just have to worry about a criminal abducting the child.

Case 1: The child gets afraid or bored, decides to go find parent. Child enters traffic, gets hit by a car.

Case 2: Child, C, decides to open car door. Person P is driving into the slot next to C's. P's car runs into C's door, doing $$ damage and injuring C and P.

Case 3: Location is a grocery store. Child gets out, walks toward door of store. Shopper, S, is walking out with armload of groceries. S activates the exit door, child walks into swinging door, catches steel door edge with middle of forehead. (I saved a little girl this way myself, once. Her mother did not appreciate my comment.)

Case 4: It is bitterly cold out. Below zero F. Child gets out of car, starts wandering around, is in danger of frostbite or exposure. (I know from the news and from friends who are parents that small children have no sense of danger or even discomfort from cold. They cannot step outside and tell themselves, "Damn, it's cold!")

Case 5: Katlaughing's story - car catches fire. Or starts rolling. Or (as mentioned) gets very hot. Or it's idling, and exhaust gets in. Cars which people don't want to turn off very often have a lot wrong with them.
==========
Decent, civilized adults protect little children when they sense something is wrong. Intelligent parents watch their little children all the time. Trouble is, there are a lot who are not intelligent. They may be well educated, but as parents, they do not have the knowledge they should.

If a parents objects to what you've done, just say "Safety first!" get in your car, and leave. They'll think it over. Probably.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 01:28 PM

If you are hoping to change someone's behaviour in this kind of context it's better to try to be as unthreatening as possible. That way you provide less of an opportunity for them to avoid thinking about the real issue.

It's easy to do something stupid, and one way and another we all do that from time to time in our own way.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM

I think you did the right thing but you should have called the police to protect yourself. She could have said you were stalking her, thinking of kidnapping her baby, saying vile thing to her etc. If it was on record that the police had been called, you would be better off, especially if you were a man. mg

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Lindy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:04 AM

I think the type of woman or man who would leave their child inside a car alone even for a "minute" would be the same type of person who would not thank you for your concern. They are so ignorant and so blind to the dangers of leaving a child alone - what can you expect from such a stupid person but a negative reaction? I do commend you for your concern.

I think you should have made a note of their license plate and called the police. Even if the person had returned to their car and had left before police got there, it is still best to let the police know about it. Try to describe the car and the driver (if you see the driver)and the child to the police. Even on a day that is not hot, a car with windows up or barely cracked can get hot inside very, very fast.
And of course the child could be kidnapped or car stolen.

I have read so many accounts of this happening here in California but it happens everywhere. I even remember reading about a woman who had arrived home, took all her groceries in the house - but forgot her child who was in a car seat and about 2 years old parked in the driveway. No one driving down the street would have seen the child as the car was up the driveway and not on the street.

Unfortunately, she went to sit down on the couch and fell asleep - leaving her child in the car for several hours. The child died due to the heat inside the car with windows all up even though it wasn't a hot day but warm. The newspaper article said the temperature inside the car was extremly hot from what I remember reading about it. I'm not what they did to the woman after this tragedy happened. I just don't understand how she could forget her child or why she didn't take the child inside the house first and then go back to get the groceries.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:52 AM

First off, I think "Silas" is some sort of troll. You all decide what sort that may be. But to answer his allegations or rather, inuendo:

The discription of the vehicles was accurate. Sorry to disappont you but I drive a nice shiney vehicle too. My fiance sold her Escalade and downsized to a Subaru Tribeca. Does that help you? Not that it's any of your business or that it matters with regards to the incidents, except maybe to demonstrate socio-economic status.

Second, I didn't approach either vehicle in any manner nor would I unless the was an imminenet danger to the child.

Thirdly, it would only take a few seconds to abduct a child from the conditions that existed. You have obviously never been a parent or you would understand how quickly a situation can escalate.   A little one's head goes underwater you just have a split-second to act. It's life or death. Or a child chokes, just seconds. Or a medical situation happens like a seizure or an insect bite and you didn't know he or she was allergic. I have had to peform CPR on a child to save its life, have you?

Then: ordinarily I'd just over look your snideness becasue it is self-evident to any who are reading this thread; you're a jerk and you are just trying to stir it up a bit. But I'm not going to overlook it this time. No one but a psychotic would truly think the way you are purporting to think. At least, I hope it's just BS on your part becasue if it isn't, then you are a sick person, so why don't you butt out of this thread and go harass some other thread, OK?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM

Thankfully most mums do use commonsense but there are always going to be the odd one or two that will take chances. Here in the UK if it is suspected that an infant is on it's own even for 10 minutes the Social Services can be alerted about it if noticed by eagle eyed neighbours. People will now intervene a bit more if it is suspected that a child is being neglected. Mainly because Social Services here have had some bad press over failing a couple of children resulting in tragedy. So people will try and prevent anything if they possibly can. It's a long time since mine were that little but are there any standard safety warnings for mothers these days not to leave little ones on their own in vehicles the same as in a house? It should be obvious but not everyone is the same. A public health information directed to all parents so that everyone understands would be a good idea similar to when the law changed for smoking in public places. Everyone did comply with that. I have to admit though if I am busy or in a hurry I don't always think to look to see if young children are on their own. May be I should keep my eyes open more.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:35 AM

If a child ids left in a car, it is left in a car, it should not matter what make, model age or size the car is, so why do you have to say that it was a 'shiney black one' (sic) or a 'Big white SUV' it is irrelevant. This is why it appears to other people that you have some psychological problem with certain cars, much as we have the same problem in the UK with some loony's about 4x4 vehicles. I am not really interested in just what your fiancé does or don't do to be honest, it is of no consequence.

So you think the children in question were in imminent danger? Really? What exact imminent danger were they in?

If you had any idea just how secure modern child seats are and just how long it takes to install and remove a child from them you may revise your opinion on how long it would take to abduct a child from one, let alone the difficulty of breaching the security systems of a modern car.

Now, if a child's head goes under water, you do NOT have to respond within a split second, far from it – no child would ever learn to swim if that was the case.

Now, as it happens I am a parent of two children, my daughter is almost eighteen and my son is almost twenty. I am pleased and proud that they have grown up as sensible young adults who are not afraid of their own shadow and do not suffer from irrational fears for their own safety.

So I suggest that you try to think a little more rationally and perhaps give more attention to things that concern you personally rather than poking your evidently overlarge proboscis into other peoples affairs.

Cheers

Silas the Troll

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:12 AM

My house has never burned down but I still carry insurance. Logic makes me do that. It would only take one fire to wipe me out, so not having insurance is insane.

Some years ago, a Mother went to the Library in Camden Maine. The Library was on the inside of a curve in the street. She took her child with her, and in a matter of minutes, a tractor trailer came around the curve going too fast, tipped over and squashed that car flat. Of course, that was only one time, and probably won't happen again, but anyone with an IQ over 60 would never leave a child in a car unattended.
Silas, it is WE who live in the real world.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM

With respect Kendall, you don't.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

Read my post, Silas. Look at the ways a child left alone can be hurt by normal people doing ordinary things.
==========
Near my house in a convenience store called the Quik-Trip. We have all learned that Quik-Trip customers cannot be trusted at all. Don't expect them to follow the rules of the road or to drive fairly. (A friend of mine told me that QT sponsors the most violent shows on TV.)

For a while, the QT customers frequently left their cars running as they raced in for beer, videos, or ciggies. A thief would hang about and steal those cars. Piece of cake, right? The sixth time, the thief made off with the vehicle, heard a funny noise, and realized with horror that there was a young kid in the car. S/he abandoned the car one block from the store, where police found it. The child was still in it.

After that there were no more car thefts at our QT. The thief must have decided that those QT people are not just stupid, they're dangerous. They can get a simple, straightforward car thief involved in the terrible felony of kidnapping, just to get their ciggies quicker. I have to agree.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:15 AM

OK let's look at a real life scenario.

A mother of two small children (pre-toddler) needs to go shopping. She takes the kids out to the car, straps them into the child seats, hops into the front seat and is about to drive off when she realises she has forgotten to pick up her purse that is sitting on the kitchen table.

Question; Does she un-strap the kids, take them back into the house with her to collect the purse, come back out and strap them in again, or does she simply nip back into the house quickly and retrieve her purse, leaving the kids strapped in the car?

Answer honestly if you can.

So, she does her shopping, trailing the kids around the supermarket in a double trolley, packs all her groceries at the checkout, trundles back to the car, loads up the goods, straps the kids in and starts to drive home. Halfway home both kids are fast asleep, but she remembers that she needs a postage stamp and stops outside the post office on the way home to buy one. Now, does she wake both kids up (both will probably be quite fractious and tearful if she does) un-strap them, carry them both into the post office, buy one stamp, carry them both out, strap them back in again and continue her journey? Or does she make sure that they are soundly asleep, get out, secure the vehicle and pop into the post office to quickly buy a stamp?

This is the REAL world. What would she realistically do?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:20 AM

I don't know what she would do but I know what I would do. Either I would postpone the postage stamp or wake the kids. Same for the purse. But I don't live in the real world. I live in the one where kids are kidnapped, raped and murdered every day.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM

OK Sinsull

This is the UK.

How many kids are kidnapped, raped and murdered every YEAR in this country?

(I don't believe you btw)

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM

Kendall, how would a child be better off in a truck-flattened car if mama was in it with him?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:35 AM

What a strange thread. People do seem to take leave of their senses when discussing health and safety issues nowadays.I have often read eminently rational posts from kendall, yet a few letters back there he is saying that because something heavy once fell on a car and crushed it flat, that proves you shouldn't put a child in a car. I was in Faversham a year or two ago, and saw where a gas explosion had destroyed a house. Now, would kendall deduce from this that people shouldn't allow their children into houses? Obviously gas is dangerous, and so are cars. But grownups need to learn to assess risks, and approach them sensibly.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:55 AM

Folks, please stop feeding the troll.

kat - mod

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:00 AM

Oh kat, you really are rich!

'Don't feed the troll'? Just because someone does not agree with you does NOT make them a troll - now stop being silly and get back to the point.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:19 AM

Silas, this is the US.
I don't know how many children are kidnapped/raped/killed here, but it's more than 'none'. They're almost always somebody else's kids.

I wouldn't have a problem with a kid being left in a car at the Post Office for a couple minutes at a reasonable ambient temperature, but I'm not a parent and I live in a very small town.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:20 AM

People, you can come up with endless silly maybes, children are always at risk. To not minimize the risks is STUPID. We can not protect them from all hazards, but the ones we can shield them from are our responsibility as intelligent parents.
Leave a child in a car unattended and you are an idiot.Period.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:22 AM

I must agree at this point with Silas, tho I disagree with most of the points he is making [see above]. The fact that his views are different from those of most other posters on this thread does not make him a troll, surely? His views are, to my mind, mistaken; but they are perfectly arguable and by no means irrational or wantonly provocative, which are surely the only attributes which would justify an accusation of trollery?

It would surely be a pity if we degenerate to the point that having views contrary to those of the majority on a thread will lead to denunciations as a troll.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

Well, it appears that folks like Kendal et al have nailed thier colours to the mast and it looks like there can be no going back for them no matter how reasonable an argument is put in real time real life situations. Sad really - but it is all the sadder that they call people whio are in fact realists 'Stupid'.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM

MtheGM, it appears to be a troll as it seems to be posting only to be contrary, i.e. get a rise out of others, even basically calling others liars.

From HERE :

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

That will be all I will post on the subject.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:05 PM

It? IT????

I am not an 'it'!

I am a regular poster on MC, and I am not posting merely to be contrary, I think I have a perfectly valid point to make. You may not agree with what I say, indeed, it is your right not to agree, but you MUST allow the argument otherwise there is no point to mudcat at all, and certainly no point in the BS stuff.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM

If you had a membership, this would be in a personal message (PM.) What you choose to list as a guest name can be used by anyone as a guest and does not denote gender; indeed one of the things about the internet is one can sign on as a different gender name with no one the wiser.

No one has disallowed your "argument" but I do take issue with your calling friends liars when you flat out tell them you do not believe them. It appears no matter what any of us post, you will disagree with provocative responses. If you wish to address this further, please join up...it's free and painless, and send me a PM.

Slag, my apologies for the thread hijacking.

kat

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM

I am a member my member name is also Silas. When I use any other PC than my own I sign in as guest for obvious reasons.

"It appears no matter what any of us post, you will disagree with provocative responses"

Well, I could use the same argument about people disagreeing with my posts.

If I don't believe what someone has written, then I don't believe it. I can't really help that, are you saying that although I don't believe it, I should not say so?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:47 PM

Silas is a member.

As for the argument, everyone here has a different frame of reference, and no allowance is being given for that.

Leaving a kid in a car in front of the Post Office on a busy city street, while you take an elevator get a stamp up on the next floor up

is different than

Leaving a kid in a car in the parking lot in a small town, while you go inside, through the glass foyer, past the window-lined wall to buy a stamp at the counter.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

Argue away, then!:-)

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:18 PM

"anyone with an IQ over 60 would never leave a child in a car unattended"      Kendall

"kendall... is saying that because something heavy once fell on a car and crushed it flat, that proves you shouldn't put a child in a car."    greg stephens

It could be argued that Kendall has overstated what is generally a very valid, important point; but citing him as saying "you shouldn't put a child in a car"    ???

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM

When I was a child some 51 years ago,aged 8, I was regularly left in a car for 45 minutes or even more.
I realise the world was a safer place then, and that I wasnt locked in, and that the temperature wasnt hot, so circumstances were slightly different.
but isnt that what we should all be taking into consideration, before making decisions, circumstances.
it is very different a child being left for one minute or even five minutes if the weather is not very hot, than if it is, the same would apply to animals.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:40 PM

First, I did not call anyone stupid. It is the act that is stupid.
Second, Silas or anyone else who thinks it's ok, give me ONE good reason to leave a child in a car unattended and I will reconsider. Note, GOOD.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM

well, you did call someone an idiot. Is that so very different from calling them stupid?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

I did nothing of the sort. I have to assume that no one here would ever do such a thing.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 05:15 PM

Logically, it is impossible to nullify all risks. In real life, one takes reasonable steps to reduce risks. Only a sufferer from OCD will persist in seeking to reduce all risk to zero.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

As I said, give me one good reason to leave a child or a pet in a car unattended.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 07:25 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM

Very intelligent reply.It speaks volumes about you, sir.

Lookie, for the past two weeks I have been on powerful pain killers, and they have had some effect on my otherwise sunny disposition.
Now, I wish to modify my -position on leaving children or pets in a car unattended. I retract my statement that anyone who does that is an idiot. We all make mistakes through not thinking ahead, so, this is my final word: Anyone who does that has committed a moronic act.

I'd still like to hear a good reason for doing it, there are many reasons for not doing it.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:56 PM

That's a good summation, kendall.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM

Oh, sorry kendall. I think that reply was to Richard and it was a fact! I was going to sleep at the machine. I wholly agree with you and why wouldn't I, as I started this thread with the same feeling that you have just espoused.

OK and sorry again. I'm assuming that you are responding to my ZZ's? Yes, a good summation. Don't leave anything you cherish in a hot car including cameras and CD's! Have you ever noticed that no matter how hot the car seems any fly trapped inside will continue to live?

PS, I can tell you stories about painkillers. I have chronic migraine syndrome. And, Good Night again! ZZZZZZ...

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:21 PM

Good for you, Slag. Would there were more like you in this world.

Years back we were called to just that: child in a locked car in very hot weather. When we arrived the officer (fire response) said, `Break the least expensive window and let`s get the kid out.` We did. The parent arrived a few minutes after the window went and got all huffy. He was told to take it up with the police who were on the way. Never heard what the outcome was. The child was checked by the medics on scene but transported to hospital just to be sure.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: gnu
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

Geeze Louise! Ya just don't leave kids unattended anywhere, anytime. It ain't rocket science. And to get all pissy about getting called down on defending same seems odd. Why bother to defend such inane behaviour when it obviously, ah, dangerous... stupid... idiotic... moronic... even negligence in the eyes of the courts or anyone with an IQ over 60.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM

Agreed Gnu. The name Adam Walsh comes to mind.......

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:38 PM

Just stop to THINK. Oh I forgot, it's the Mudcat.

Risks cannot be reduced to zero.

Inconveniences are relative.

Is that too hard for you?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:38 PM

It is a foolish act but one that I would guess many here have done or done something similar to some extent or another at some point in life (for example - is it ok to nip next door to a neighbour while an infant is asleep in your own house or should you wake the child and take it with you? is it ok to leave a child in the garden in a pram in summer and go back inside the house? is it ok to leave a child asleep upstairs and listen to the TV downstairs?)

As a parent you constantly assess risk as best as you can judge and (sometimes) people get it wrong; most of the time they get it right and children survive. Only you can decide where you draw a line.

From what statistics I can see something like 25 to 30 children die a year in cars in the US from being left - which is lots of tragedies and many too many. Of those some of the reports suggest children left in cars for FOUR HOURS + which I don't think anyone here would defend in any circumstances. In 2008 968 children died in traffic accidents and 168000 were injured - should we stop taking children in cars period? Something like 80 - 100 times as many children die from cot death (2500 - 3000) - should parents stay with their children all night just in case? Infant homicide in the US for children ages 0–4 was between 2.5 and 3.0 per 100 000 (in a study of 7 states there were 129 homicides over 2 years) most of them occuring at home.

Risks are relative otherwise you can't live a life.

Slag, for what it's worth I think you were right to do what you did and it will at least make the person consider their actions in the future but the people concerned calculated a risk and acted accordingly. They were also two incidents spread out over 'several years'. In the more recent case also you did say that "She did a quick look back at her baby and told the other women "It's OK. I'll just be a minute" which suggests that other women were around and (presumably would keep an eye open) and that she had weighed the risks before taking her action.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:54 PM

And an article on Child Abduction in the UK which again puts the risk in perspective - this is from the bottom of page 3

"14 offences of stranger attempted child abduction
involved a victim under the age of two years. In each case
the offender attempted to remove the child from the direct
control of its parent. In three cases, the offender
impersonated a member of the social services or health
profession. In the remaining 11 cases the offender tried to
physically remove the victim."

Child abduction: understanding police recorded statistics

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:46 AM

Record number of children die in hot cars in 2010

"Advocacy group counts 48 such deaths in a year of record temperatures."

While the number is fairly small, it is for the US only and includes only the children WHO DIED. There is no count for the number who may have required treatment for hyperthermia, or who may have suffered at least temporary - or permanent - injury.

A factor not obvious to some may be the almost universal use of air conditioning in vehicles in recent years, especially in warmer parts of the US. For people accustomed to such use, the windows invariably are left completely shut, and it's unlikely that someone leaving a child or a pet in the vehicle "just for a bit" would open them to provide ventillation.

Few people are likely to have any real awareness of just how rapidly the temperature inside a closed up vehicle can rise when the reefer is shut down.

And the permanent brain damage from fairly brief but non-fatal hyperthermia can be very difficult to diagnose later, after the child (or pet) "recovers" from the immediate effects. (How do you assess five years later how much less stupid your child might have been, if ... ?)

John

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

I think the point is that people will, sometimes, leave children unattended, wether in cars or in a garden or where ever. Rightly or wrongly, this happens and is a fact of life and nearly always there are no adverse consequences. The question is, is it right for some, however well meaning, member of the public to take on the role of 'parenting police' and admonish the parent for it. As I said in a previous post, if I caught anyone peering through my windows at my children, I would not hesitate to confrunt them about it.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:53 PM

A lot of this thread has been about zero tolerance approaches to things.

Your (much more recent than mine) link quotes the latest -

"The latest death was a 2½-month-old girl who died Sept. 20 in Kingman, Ariz., after being left five hours in a car in 100-degree heat."

And the two who climbed into a truck and presumably that was a kids accident that went wrong (like deaths where people get trapped in chest freezers).

While zero tolerance may be a laudable goal it confuses the world. The woman who goes into a shop saying 'It's ok I'll just be a few minutes' to people watching over (and has people they don't know also watching out fo rthe interests of the child) gets lumped into the same bucket as the nutter who leaves a baby for 5 hours in 100 degree heat. These are different things.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: gnu
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM

A few minutes is ample time for a nutter to take a child.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM

John

It made me look a little further so I'll trade a link back -

Hyperthermia etc

Most 'forgotten' or a mistake. Very few to being left (purposely or not presumably) - perhaps 8 a year?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:09 PM

Gnu

That suggests the door is left open so that someone can snatch that quickly. In which case, if you see a baby in distress, you just open the door and let the baby out, don't you? If the door is locked and it's in public I think people might react to someone smashing the windows of a car and hauling a baby out.

Playing 'hypothetical situations' is a great game but you can't get away from the fact that - however bad leaving a child is - it's pretty low risk.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: gnu
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM

Oh... you locked the doors. Oh, well then. Problem solved.

Unless sommat happens to you and it's very hot. Oh, wait, no, that could never happen. No child could ever die in a hot car.

I am gone. Have fun.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:48 PM

"it's pretty low risk."

So Nick - you think it's a low risk. I guess there are a lot of us here that think why risk it at all? Can you describe how you look at a situation and how you go about deciding that the risk of death or abduction is worth taking? When do you decide that it's just not worth it? And may I ask if you have kids of your own? Are you a parent?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:37 PM

When I was 14 I was walking home from a friends house when I heard a sound like I had never heard before in my life. At first I did know what it could be and I was not one to scare easily but a shot of terror went through my body and for an instant I froze and then started to turn and go the other way when I heard it again, louder and then I understood it was a human cry.

Just as I was turning, the door of the house before me flew open and a woman came running out with a naked baby dangling from her hands (and if you don't think the tears are welling up as I type this, think again). She ran toward me screaming "HELP ME! HELP MY BABY!" and holding the lifeless child out to me. God! I was just a dumb kid and had no idea of what to do. "I'll call an ambulance" I told her and by that time other folks were running up and some adults took charge of the situation. It was, of course, too late.

My folks knew this woman and that really made it hit home. She had been giving her 1 1/2 year old a bath when the phone rang. There were only a couple of inches in the baby tub and she was just gone "a few seconds", you know, answer the phone and bring it back to where the baby was and chat with her friend. Only land lines then, of course. But that was all it took. That's one of those things you never forget for your entire life. Shortly there after I learned what passed for CPR in it's day. I was never going to be that dumb kid again.

Just a few seconds.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:11 AM

Slag

Quite frankly, I think that is a work of pure fiction.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

>>So Nick - you think it's a low risk. I guess there are a lot of us here that think why risk it at all? Can you describe how you look at a situation and how you go about deciding that the risk of death or abduction is worth taking? When do you decide that it's just not worth it? And may I ask if you have kids of your own? Are you a parent?

I am a parent with two sons 18 and 22.

Let me be clear - I am not advocating that children should be left in cars and especially in temperatures that are considerably hotter than are normal in the UK. I am merely pointing out that - relatively - the risk of death is small compared with many other risks that a child will come across. Most of the reports that are on the web that I have read refer to children being left for times between 50 minutes and many hours and that is grossly irreponsible, perhaps even criminally so. The risk associated with leaving a child in a car in normal temperatures for a few minutes are low. It would be great if they were zero but they are still low compared with car accidents, pedestrian accidents, cot death, communicable diseases etc I would guess that the risk of taking the child out of the car and crossing a road to get to a shop is equally dangerous given the number of car accidents there are but I would not
imagine people would see that as an avoidable risk.

The risk of abduction is also remarkably low.

Perhaps my attitude towards relative risk is coloured by two incidents - my wife's niece was killed crossing a road outside school when she was 12 and I was attacked and assaulted by a stranger at gunpoint at a similar age. Both of these are things that happen rarely and probably both could have been avoided but you still need to get on and live a life. There are many more times that something could have happened in life but didn't.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 11:15 AM

When you take risks, it's with your own life. It all depends on what you are doing, of course, but even then, if you have a modicum of wisdom you seek to minmize the risk as much as possible. If not you are considered "foolhardy" or even reckless.

That's with your own life. If you have people dependn't on you it is not really right to engage in risky behavior beyond those things we all face everyday (mainly on the roadways).

You never have the right to put someone else's life at risk. In many cases there are laws against so doing. Those laws usually go under the heading of "endangerment" or "negligence" and are often crimes in the eyes of society. Putting a helpless child in situations where injury or death or worse (such as kidnap and rape and torture) is criminal and in my opinion, should be a high crime if some such happens to the child.

Silas, you should really go get some help. There's something wrong with you.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:32 PM

`One of the reasons people forget a baby's in the car is that, as we all know, you're supposed to put the car seat in the back, so parents often don't have direct eye contact with the child, Smith points out. But now, NASA -- yes, the space agency -- has developed a device that sounds an alarm any time a child is left in a car seat. It should be available in June.`

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:37 PM

Look, every time you start a car, it carries with it a risk. It can be avoided by using only public transport (if there is any). But we weigh the risk against the convenience.

Every time we cross the road we might endanger a police car on silent pursuit, or an ambulance.

When we cross the road on a road bridge we might have a heart attack and fall on the top of an unprotected driver in a convertible.

We are not slaves to children. Be prudent, by all means. Be caring. But don't be so anally retentive.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 03 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM

"slaves to children"?? a non-sequiter if ever there was one. No one mentioned slavery. Our children are our RESPONSIBILITY, not task masters. When you decide to have children or engage in an activity that might produce children, you should be ready to adopt the responsiblity that goes along with having children. In reality it is a life long commitment to caring love for your children. For the most of us, that comes easy. It is our natural response to our children. At the very least it should be our moral response to our children.

And again, I will repeat, it is part of your loving response to do all that is REASONABLE to minimize hazzard and risk. You are making decisions all day long about that very thing. It's second nature and I will contend that it is a no-brainer to not leave a child alone and unwatched in a vehicle. Let's call it "child retentive" behavior. Where you want to retain your own head is your business.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 04:26 AM

"Silas, you should really go get some help. There's something wrong with you."


Nothing wrong with me apart from a well developed bullshite detector.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 04:49 AM

Silas ~~ Slag was obviously objecting to your dismissal of his/her account of a traumatic experience regarding adolescent inability to deal with an emergency situation as "pure fiction". That was wrong of you ~ you have no way of knowing the facts of the matter ~ even if it might be overstating the case to assert that it demonstrates that there is something wrong with you. I think you relied overmuch in this instance on that bullshit-detector you are so proud of, when you had no proof that any bullshit was present.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 05:12 AM

Hi Michael

I am, as most people on here are, merley stating my opinions. I cannot prove or disprove the claims made by slag any more than slag can.

"Wrong of me"? well, possibly, or possibly not. My bullshite detector is pretty reliable, but to be fair, it's not infallable.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 05:41 AM

Silas ~ Well, I suppose Slag can't 'prove' the truth of the story; but why should he be expected to? If we were all called on to prove the truth of any and every assertion we made, an intolerable situation would result. In even doubting Slag's story's truth, you are, in effect, calling Slag a liar, with [as you yourself have admitted] no proof to support such an accusation ~ to which, even if you defend it as 'merely an opinion', Slag is surely perfectly entitled to object. I think this goes well beyond 'merely stating an opinion', into the realms of wanton and needless insult. It was obviously a disagreeable experience which Slag was recalling, and to have its verity thus brought into doubt must have been exceptionally distressing. No wonder he thought the person who could do such a thing, with no sort of evidence to back up such a doubt except reliance on a 'bullshit detector', had 'something wrong with him'!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 04 Oct 10 - 05:51 AM

Well.............you are also entitled to your opinion.

However, if I think someone is talking bollocks, I feel no personal constraints in saying so.

Everyone is a liar to a greater or lesser extent, so let us not get hung up on that one eh?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:03 AM

If it would settle ruffled feathers I would disclose names to a mod for verification via newpaper account but I certainly won't potentially impose new grief on old wounds nor invade privacy if those parties still live for a petty argument's sake. Moderator, PM me.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:10 AM

Slag, it appears to me that you are very risk-averse, perhaps as a consequence of your traumatic experience, and that your reaction to any risk is to try to avoid it, rather than assess the risk and manage it. This attitude, while apparently laudable, has so permeated official thinking (here in the UK at least) that children's experiences are being limited because of perceived risks, and they are growing up unable to understand or assess risks for themselves, which leaves them ill-prepared for adulthood.

All actions carry risks - nothing is totally safe. We have to assess which risks deserve most attention and choose our actions accordingly. A formal risk assessment will look at both the severity of the risk and the possibility of it happening. A small risk with minor consequences but which is very likely to happen may carry more weight than a severe but unlikely risk. We carry out similar informal assessments for everything we do, sometimes unconsciously.

Your assertion that it is always wrong to leave a child in an unattended car assumes that it is invariably safer than the alternative. You have given no thought to the risks which may arise if the child is removed from the car. These risks may be less serious but more probable.

The consequence of a child being abducted from a locked car left for a minute or two on a busy public street is severe, but the probability is extremely low. A parent may, for example, judge that the child's welfare is better served by leaving them undisturbed in a comfortable dry environment, rather than take them out in cold wet weather to cross a busy road. They are entitled to decide that the low but probable risks to the child's welfare from removing the child outweigh the serious but very unlikely risk of the child being abducted. That seems to me to be an entirely justifiable decision. Perhaps you would have made a different judgement yourself, and that too might be justifiable, but you might then face criticism for exposing the child to other risks.

Of course there are parents who exercise poor judgement, and some who are simply reckless or thoughtless - save your anger for them. To say it is always wrong in all circumstances shows a failure to properly assess and balance relative risks.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

Well, yeah, if Dear Old Dad is knocking over a liquor store or visiting a bawdy house, sure leave the kid in the car. There is always an equation to consider. No, I grew up in a different world. I'd walk two miles to downtown alone to see a movie on Saturday afternoon and get home around dark. Not a problem. My brother and I sat in a parked car many times while the folks ran some errand and we even managed to get the parking brake off one time when I was about 3. My brother was 5 and I still say it was his fault. No seatbelts and we rode in the back of the pick-up many times. What did we know? As I said, it was a different world then. Many of the risks were the same as they are today and we just tend to look at them differently. Who knows? Someday we may all be required to wear crash helemets when we drive and folks will shake their heads at those who refuse. Things change.

My point, however is that for known risks that might result in death or horrible crimes committed upon the person of a small child it is always reasonable to error on the side of caution, both for the child's sake and for the many years of mental anguish which could accompany that one in a million happenstance. It is simply not worth the risk.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to give me a go9od reason FOR leaving a child or pet in a car unattended.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM

Kendall

Perhaps you tried to drown them but they managed to get out of the bag?


But seriously...

We DO live in different times. It's one based increasingly on FEAR and it is creatd by those in power for their own ends as an instrument of control. And it will get worse.

It's why 'normal' people reconsider risk and move their expectations into unreasonable places. Statistics on crimes by strangers on children stay the same over decades only people's perceptions of risk change.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Tyke
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:15 PM

I returned home to my quiet cul-de-sac to find Yellow Paint marks on the road. These was the kind of Yellow Paint Marks the Police make when investigating a road traffic accident in which someone has died!

What had happened the Mother had left her son in the car as she got out to drop something off at her Mother in Laws.

Her Son Climbed from the back seat into the front seat knocking off the hand break.
The car not in gear started to roll. The Mother on a few feet away ran to the back of her car to try and stop it!

She stumbled and fell as the car rolled over her she was dragged and trapped under the car. The car stopped after bouncing of one parked car then mounting the pavement and hitting a wall. They say you could her screams and cry's of pain even over the sound of the child's screams and cry's for his Mother.

Three fire engines were called the First did not have the right equipment the second had the equipment but the crew had not been trained to use it. She was dead before the third Fire Engine's Crew got her free.

Imagine the Trauma that child will go through all his life blaming himself for the death of his Mother.
Imagine the pain that his mother went through trapped and dragged under that car.
Imagine the sorrow of the father at the loss of his wife!
Imagine Grandmas feelings and the shock and horror of all the neighbours especially all the ones who rushed to help.

Park your car less than a foot from the curb turn the front wheels so that the car should it roll it roll towards the nearest curb.
Press your foot on the brake pedal as you apply the hand break firmly.
Leave your in car in first or reverse gear depending on which way you are parked on the hill.

If you have to leave children or pets in the car put them in a cage and padlock it!
Make sure that they have water and ventilation! Never leave them for longer than the time it took you to read this.

PS No one gives a shit about the damage to the Car!

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM

Now, Silas, would you like to tell Tyke that your bullshit meter says that he made that up, too?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:01 AM

I wish I had made it up frogprince but sadly not!
Worse still its it's all just too easy to make a mistake that can cost lives!

Now belive it or not we have makes of cars that lock there own doors and it don't matter if your inside the car or outside without the car keys!

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:04 AM

Well matey, all I can say is that she must have been parked on one hell of a slope and the handbrake must have been faulty - you can't just 'knock off' a handbrake accidently.
Remarkable series of a run of bad luck? Faulty handbrake, fire engine called to accident scene without proper equipment, second one had right equipment but untrained staff (I assume that the first crew were also untrained otherwise they could have used the equipment)

Remarkable.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:33 AM

So you are saying you would rather expose a child to a 1 in 100 risk of being injured while the parent takes them across a busy road because of a 1 in a million chance of them being abducted if they were left in the car?

Let's make it less emotive. If you are walking down the sidewalk you might trip over a raised paving stone and suffer a minor injury. You might also be struck by a meteorite and killed. Should you repair the paving stone or put a roof over the sidewalk?

It's about assessing and choosing between alternative risks. Nothing is risk-free. Most people are able exercise judgement. By all means criticise those who are reckless, or who make wrong judgements. Just bear in mind that to put too much weight on a very remote risk may in itself show poor judgement. It all depends on the circumstances.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:13 AM

So, maybe it's ok to leave a kid in a car because the chances that something bad will happen are nil? What's a kid or two anyway? they are making them every day.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:39 AM

Tell me Kendall, do you actually read any of these posts, or do you just dig yourself into a pit and defend a defenceless position anyway?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 01:08 PM

If the chances that something bad will happen are nil, why wouldn't it be OK to leave a kid in the car for a short period?

You're disregarding the point that removing the child from the car may not be without risk either. The consequences may be less serious than abduction, but the probability of it happening may be much higher. In the example I gave, it may be a reasonable assessment of the relative risks to decide that the risk involved in carrying a child across a busy road (twice) is greater than the risk of briefly leaving the child in the car.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

Guest Silas well a faulty hand break was suspected because it was on when the Fire Brigade arrived. However one neighbour on hearing the screams and seeing another neighbour trying to use a trolley Jack to lift the car up she also saw the car starting to roll she ran over and reaching in and pulled on! The Hand Break, which was in the off position.

I can see someone parking a car and not leaving it in gear but the Street is steep and I feel that it unlikely that you could get out of any car not in gear without applying the hand break.

Advanced drivers, PSV, and HGV drivers will be taught hill parking as I described earlier and it will also be part of the test. Bur car drivers up to a few years ago were not taught or tested hill parking or how to park for that matter.

We all make mistakes from time to time however we should all drive about expecting other people mistakes. The point is that Hand Break ON and the Car In the Appropriate Gear and the wheels turn to send the car into an in animate object is what we all should be doing every time! With only appropriate adults left in cars always buy your children a treat when you fill up with fuel so that the come with you when you go to the Kiosk to pay.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:34 PM

There are two types of risks being discussed here and I see some equivocation. The first category are risks do to potential accident or condition of environment like a baking hot day or mechanical failure. The other and far mor heinous are those situations which ATTRACT human vermin who would perpetrate crimes aggainst our children and this was the original thrust of my argument. Negate these type risks as the horror to the child is almost unthinkable and if the child should survive they will be severely damaged for the rest of their lives. It, to me, is simply unthinkable to not do all you can to minimize or eliminate this sort of risk.

I think the equivocation comes in at the point where leaving the child alone, especially in a parked car simultaneously exposes them to both types of risk.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:59 PM

You should do all you can to minimize or eliminate any sort of risk. All I am saying is that this should be proportionate to the level of that risk, and should take into account the risks associated with the alternative courses of action.

By focussing on one risk because the consequences are particularly horrible and traumatic, even though it's very unlikely to happen, you may overlook a more imminent and immediate threat.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Nick
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

Well whatever you say things do happen to people and we should do everything to guard against unnecessary risks however small...

Consider Roy Sullivan. What should we do to stop things like this happening, folks?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM

I saw Roy Sullivan on the Johnny Carson show one night and it was mostly pretty humorous. He brought in some of his clothing articles and showed the burn marks. I also recalled that he said the only place you were pretty sure you wouldn't be struck was in a cave be he was entirely persuaded that the lightening would even follow you down the hole. He had some interesting facts. Then he was struck again and Carson had him back on. Carson asked him if he ever felt That someone was out to get him and he knowingly looked skyward a couple of times. The audience chuckled and Roy said well he did some talking to the Lord about things and he felt that he had got somethings settled between he and the Lord.

It is a fact that when lightening strikes you even slightly and you live, you are a changed person. I don't know what changes Mr. Sullivan experienced but I understand that he took his own life. I make no judgment. He was an extraordinary person who lived through incredible circumstances where most probably would have died.

Life is a tragedy. We all know how it ends, just not the details. We try to minimize those things that tend to bring about the end quicker than others and we certainly should try to minimize the same for our little ones who cannot, as yet, take care of themselves.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:22 PM

We are talking about children being left alone in vehicles, not an adult struck by lightning or any of the other things brought up in this thread.

If one has to cross a very busy street, don't go there while you have your child with you. Leave them with a family member at home or with a caregiver of some sort, plan your trip so that you don't even have to consider leaving them in the car. And, don't tell me it's impossible. I was a single mom of three and never left them alone in a car. Good heavens, if you have a child, use your head and take good care of them. Common sense says do not leave young ones unattended, period.

From www.missingkids.com:

The U.S. Department of Justice reports

    * 797,500 children (younger than 18) were reported missing in a one-year period of time studied resulting in an average of 2,185 children being reported missing each day.
    * 203,900 children were the victims of family abductions.
    * 58,200 children were the victims of non-family abductions.
    * 115 children were the victims of "stereotypical" kidnapping. (These crimes involve someone the child does not know or someone of slight acquaintance, who holds the child overnight, transports the child 50 miles or more, kills the child, demands ransom, or intends to keep the child permanently.)


That's too many if you ask me, even one is too many. Adults who are responsible for children need to do everything they can to keep them safe. And, before you say it, NO! I do not mean lock them up and never let them go anywhere.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:56 AM

Silas, I read every post and I have still not heard a logical reason to leave a child in a car unattended. Dance around all you want, that is the question.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:20 PM

You would think that this issue would be a no-brainer. Like - don't let kids play with broken glass. Or - don't swallow a whole bottle of asprin. Or even - don't drive drunk. But one thing I've learned about the Mudcat over the years is that even with these no-brainer issues there is someone who's on the other side that will argue about anything. ANYTHING. We're over 120 posts on this issue.

Silly isn't it?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:35 PM

Yes, it is, Wesley!

Um, Kendall...it is Slag who has been saying there are NO good reasons to leave a child in a car unattended.

I notice nothing has been said about the psychological implications of leaving a child alone in a car, either. Imagine how scary it could be for a little one left alone in a big, quiet car with strangers passing by. It could be fun or seem like a lark, but deep down it's got to feel as though they don't matter or whomever they are with just can't be bothered to include them in whatever they are doing. There's too much of that going on these days, imo. I see so many little ones struggling to keep up with adults who are too busy on cellphones, shopping or whathaveyou to even notice their children are lagging. Besides sending a message of "you're not important" it also puts them at risk for being lost, hit by a car in a parking lot which can't see them for being so short, etc.

Again, if someone chooses to be a parent, then BE a parent. BE responsible for your child and show them how very important they are to you as well as teach them good manners...how will you feel when you are old and grey, can't walk as fast and they leave you behind in the dust just when you need a helping hand. Brings to mind that old Cat Stevens' Harry Chapin song Cats in the Cradle.

If people would just take the time...it is so much fun to help a little one learn about the world AND to see the world through their eyes. Folks need to slow down and take the time for their children.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM

Actually - it's a Harry Chapin song. Youtubes got it all wrong. I'm sure that will never happen again.

Something that bugs me is seeing kids who aren't in their seatbelts when they're in a car. Even in the school parking lot it's unaceptable in my eyes. And I wish someone would tell why kids in a car are supposed to waer seatbelts - but in a schoolbus they don't.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

Kat, I know.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:18 PM

Oops, sorry, Kendall.

Wesley, I know! I've always wondered why no seatbelts in buses. I have a chipped tooth from lack thereof from 6th grade!

I'll fix the song attribution.:-)

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: mg
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 03:40 PM

I have asked the seatbelt question and the answer, which may or may not be true, is that there are too many kids per adult and in some accident situations where you needed to empty the bus quickly they would be stuck perhaps in their seatbelts..who knows. mg

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Slag
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:47 PM

I've seen the aftermath of a school bus crash and I concur. The bus emptied the school children very quickly all over the roadway. Get them seatbelts, fer cryin' out loud.

PS It would also help the drivers control the little knotheads that like to cause trouble. No go until the belts show "fastened" on a tell-tale board.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 07:19 PM

Concord coaches have seat belts. Are adults lives more important than children's lives?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 07:13 AM

My ex and I had a state protective child for a while. She had been taken from a horrible home situation and just didn't have a clue how to act in public. She was 4 years old at the time. My ex is a child therapist, has a PHd in early childhood development and her way of dealing with an unruly child was, I thought, extreme.
We were having a meal and the child would not sit still, kept running around the restaurant bothering other people. Annie told he she had a choice, either sit with us and behave or go to the car and be alone until we finished our meal. I was thinking, "Dont make idle threats". Sure enough, the little terror would not sit still so Annie put her in the car, locked the doors and we watched her through the window of the restaurant.
About 5, maybe 10 minutes later Annie went to get her. She brought her in and she was as good as gold from then on.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 07:35 AM

The poet and playwright Aeschylus died when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head. An accident just waiting to happen at any time. I despair of the mindless morons and idiots who let their children go out in the garden and expose them to this very real risk.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:11 AM

I deleted the last several posts from Slag and Silas because they were a personal squabble of no interest to the rest of us.
Please stick to the topic of discussion, and refrain from personal attacks and combat.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Lox
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 12:08 PM

My posts have gone too.

Don't know why as I don't have any interest in personal squabbles either.

But This point remains true.


Silas has been arguing to defend the right of parents to put their children at risk if they so choose.

He has also argued that if someone questioned him in the exercise of this right that he would be justified in breaking their nose.

I disagree with this position.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM

He also has a nose.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 12:51 PM

Lox, just behave!

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Tyke
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:07 PM

Well I just don't see any reason why anyone would want to disagree with the positive safety sentiments on this thread. Other than to purposely make inflammatory statements with the intention of enforcing the safety measures put forward by others and to keep the thread going.

If I am wrong and they are just on a wind up it seems to me as their wind up is having a positive effect and promoting road safety when people so strongly disagree with what they are posting.

If you look at it with that reasoning then you should have no reasons to get angry about their comments. Logically once the wind up merchants realize their intent is failing then they will get cheesed off and go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 12:42 AM

When I was 4, my sweet old grandma left me alone in her big, old Dodge while it was running. I tried to drive it. Of course in those days we didn't have car seats. But, after years of babysitting I can tell you, it is never a good idea to turn your back on a child under the age of 5.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 04:10 AM

I simply can't be arsed to continue to refute the adverse spin put on my comments by Lox et al. I will just say that I consider parenting to be the job of bringing children up so that they are quaified and capable of dealing with the world as it is as they get older. Wrapping them in a protective shield will not do that, thay have to experience life as it really is in able to be able to deal with it. A work colleage treats his daughter as some of you seem to think children should be treated. She is now fourteen and will not cross a road without someone to help her - is that right do you think? A bit of common sense goes a long way when dealing with children (or life for that matter)and the near hysterical reactions from some of the posters on here really makes me question the mental state of some of the them.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: kendall
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 07:59 AM

I'm still waiting for one good reason to leave a child in a car unattended.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: Lox
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:13 AM

No Spin Silas, You said very clearly and literally that you would break someones nose for being an interfering busybody.

Maybe you'd like to retract that statement if it doesn't reflect your views, but til then it remains fact that you expressed that view.

Your words can be read here

and here

Those were your first comments

After that merely you go on to justify your position.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM

Yep, read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 09:17 AM

OK Kendall – here is a scenario for you. A mother who happens to be a nurse decides its time to go and do the weekly shopping. She straps her young child into the child safety seat in the back of the car and proceeds into the town. Very little traffic on the road apart from the car in front of her. Suddenly, from out of 'nowhere' a child runs onto the road in the path of the car in front of her, and gets knocked down.

So we have a child lying injured and possibly unconscious in the road, the driver of the vehicle still sitting behind the wheel of his car, presumably in deep shock.

The mother with the child in the car is, don't forget, a trained nurse. Her speedy actions could mean life or death for the injured child in the road.

What does she do?

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: mg
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

depending on the extent of injuries, bleeding, possibility for broken neck etc...whether she has a cell phone, whether a medical car can reach child..in some cases she would glance at driver to make sure not severe bleeding, and she would perhaps..having weighed the options, scoop up said child and race tot he hospital and call 911 on the way if she could or blare her horn...if shedecides help could arrive quickly she still asseses the child, makes note of make and model of car in case guy decides to speed off, calls 911 for both parties..if man comes to tells him she is a nurse and to call his wife or someone but to stay until police come...if he comes to and could prove useful...don't know...other options...mg

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:00 PM

That's a pretty far out example. However, the way I read it she is not leaving the child, she is still on the scene. I am talking about LEAVING the child, as in going away from the scene, say to have a beer or three.

Subject: RE: Children left in cars: 2 incidents
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Oct 10 - 02:29 PM

Far out? Not really - there are many many more children killed and injured on our roads than are ever abducted. No one is talking about leaving kids alone in cars whilst their parents go into the pub for a few beers, that would imdeed be stupid, we are talking about leaving them for a few minets whilst we buy a stamp!

And mg, you are joking - right?