BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey

Subject: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:24 PM

I debated whether to add this to one of the current threads, but in the hope of starting a rational discussion without a pre-loaded thread title, here's a new thread.

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life has released (apparently at a religion newswriters conference) the results of a new survey: the U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey.

As reported in the New York Times:

Researchers from the independent Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life phoned more than 3,400 Americans and asked them 32 questions about the Bible, Christianity and other world religions, famous religious figures and the constitutional principles governing religion in public life.

On average, people who took the survey answered half the questions incorrectly, and many flubbed even questions about their own faith.

Those who scored the highest were atheists and agnostics, as well as two religious minorities: Jews and Mormons. The results were the same even after the researchers controlled for factors like age and racial differences.

"Even after all these other factors, including education, are taken into account, atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons still outperform all the other religious groups in our survey," said Greg Smith, a senior researcher at Pew.

...There were not enough Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu respondents to say how those groups ranked.

---

The L.A. Times notes "For comparison purposes, the survey also asked some questions about general knowledge, which yielded the scariest finding: 4% of Americans believe that Stephen King, not Herman Melville, wrote "Moby Dick."

The direct link to the survey and its results is here, but I haven't been able to look at it yet -- I'll bet their server is overloaded this evening.

You can read some other reports on the report, though:

Reuters

Huffington Post

PBS NewsHour which refers to several other reports on the report

the Religion News Service (at Belief.net)

Nicole Neroulias's "Belief Beat" blog at Belief.net

I, a never-believing non-believer (one theory on the results is that many atheists & agnostics have left a church after great thought), got 5 out of 6 correct in the NY Times's small sample of questions from the survey. (And if I hadn't second-guessed myself on one question, it would have been 6 out of 6.) However, at least a couple of those questions were addressed in the article...

I might have felt more confident overall if I had done the Bible reading homework in my high school Humanities class in the semester that I was rebelling against school hypocrisy (not just a problem with that class). My son is taking an A.P. World History Class and is just finishing up the section on comparative religion. So, no problem knowing that it is allowable to read the Bible as literature in U.S. public schools.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:29 PM

The Huffington Post says,

In conjunction with the release of the survey, WGBH in Boston will debut "God in America," a six-hour series that interweaves documentary footage, historical dramatization and interviews to explore the historical role of religion in the U.S., including its impact on society, politics and culture. It will air over three consecutive nights on PBS beginning Oct. 11.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:04 AM

Desert Dancer, there is nothing surprising about this. Most people who defend their religion do so not because of having detailed knowledge about that religion, but merely because it forms part of their own familiar cultural background and so naturally, they defend it.

For the same reason, they defend the non-religious social customs and habits they are familiar with, and they defend the nation they grew up in, the style of clothing they wear, the type of food they eat, and all the common stuff they take for granted. It's all part of their conscious identity.

There is nothing the least bit surprising that a great many religious people are not too knowledgable about their own religion, specially in mainstream religions. The same is true of a great many people, for instance, being very loyal to their country, but having only the most fragmentary knowledge of its history.

This is not a situation peculiar to religion. It is common to just about every major cultural factor.

I don't think the people doing the survey have chosen to focus on that, because they preferred to make some kind of point about religion. That suited their agenda for some reason.

It will also suit the agenda of most of the people who will choose to post on this thread, I suspect....so having said what I felt I needed to about it, I shall now leave you all to it and go play guitar instead. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:35 AM

I'm not surprised either. A few weeks ago, it was big news when some poll showed that a lot of people believe that Obama is a Muslim. My first thought was: I wonder if those people even know what "Muslim" means? For example, do they understand that Islam is a religion and not an ethnicity?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:27 AM

"Those who scored the highest were atheists and agnostics,"

I'm sure this would also be the case in Britain, which is why I get so angry with mindless, arrogant evangelicals I have come across (including members of my own family) who believe that they have a god-given duty to bring to the lord the poor, ignorant, benighted godless sinners who don't know the error of their ways. Athiests have usually made a rationale, considered decision to be so and are unlikely to be swayed by what they consider to be superstitious nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:10 AM

I'm with theleveller on this one. Here in the UK, we are fed the idea that USA is a much more God fearing scripture dependent nation than ourselves. Interestingly of course, the USA is supposedly a secular legislative system whilst we have the Anglican church embedded in our system, with The Queen the head of the Church.

Surveys usually bear out the hypothesis on which they were formed. So become self fulfilling prophesies. I wouldn't look too far into them myself. My view would be that those claiming to be atheist who seem to know more certainly can be seen as having had religion thrust down their throats when younger and therefore make a rational decision based on having thought about it. For an increasing portion of the population, they have never had any contact with religion other than the door knockers who get the same reaction as double glazing salesmen. For those, religion really is somebody else's problem...

My mother in law is a rather devout Christian. I am amused that in coming to terms with my lack of interest (and her daughter's but she glosses over that) she is interested in "where it all went wrong."   I hold no malice here, but rather think it is more a case of "where it went right." These people genuinely think that living without an imaginary friend is to be pitied. Then they get confused when confronted with "aggressive secularism" as one guest to our country used the term the other week...

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:24 AM

"Surveys usually bear out the hypothesis on which they were formed. So become self fulfilling prophesies."

In the research industry it's known as the 'drunk and lamppost scenario' it's used more for support than illumination.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:25 AM

Some are in my family too who see their belief in such a tunnel visioned narrow minded ignorant way. For instance because my mother has seen paintings of Christ with blue eyes and golden hair she accepts it as so, no question not that it is just an artist's interpretation and she doesn't shift from that notion. But I don't argue about it any more, she is an old lady now so I just let it ride because I know differently!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:50 AM

I think it's very worrying that millions of people who profess faith in a God and affect to worship him, yet who know little about their religion, are happy for others to "educate" their children along the same path. If ever there was a situation ripe for exploitation...

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:01 AM

Theleveller.... says...>>>>>>>>>I get so angry with mindless, arrogant evangelicals I have come across (including members of my own family) who believe that they have a god-given duty to bring to the lord the poor, ignorant, benighted godless sinners who don't know the error of their ways. Athiests have usually made a rationale, considered decision to be so and are unlikely to be swayed by what they consider to be superstitious nonsense.<<<<<<<

As a born again Bible believing Christian... I try to follow the path set by Jesus by His words and behavior... As such I should go tell the world the good news. Whether the world wants to believe it or not is their choice but I will still witness to people given the opportunity. I am certainly not mindless and admit to at sometimes in my life having been arrogant but I fail to see how someone who doesn't follow my beliefs can sit in judgement over me or any other Christian in this way. What is the rationale that atheists have made... why does 'not believing' make them any more 'right' than me..I choose a path which actually precludes my believing in superstition..... I can't prove there is a God.. people have to find Him for themselves... but neither can atheists prove that there isn't.. Theleveller has an opinion which might well concur with many others but he is not my judge.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:13 AM

You have us atheists all wrong. This has been thrashed out on a couple of recent and a few not-so-recent threads. We don't "not believe" and we don't want to try to prove there's no God, thanks. Also, we generally don't go around witnessing to people (whatever that is) at every opportunity. An exceptionally tiny minority of us may write books about it but they'll never get on the school curriculum.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

"Aetheists have usually made a rational, considered decision to be so"

So have many believers. I'm one who has.

I've made my choice, and I consider myself no better or worse than those who choose not to believe. So why does that make me 'mindless' or 'arrogant' (and, presumably, make a non-believer the opposite of those two things)?

Please enlighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:18 AM

Your decision may well have been considered but we could certainly discuss "rational" further.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:33 AM

"we could certainly discuss "rational" further"

Now there's an example of arrogance Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:37 AM

"So why does that make me 'mindless' or 'arrogant' (and, presumably, make a non-believer the opposite of those two things)?

Please enlighten me. "

I'm not implying that it does - I was at pains to make clear that I was speaking purely from personal experience of certain individuals and not generalising. I respect that many believers have made a considered and conscious decision about what they believe and would ask that, in turn, they respect that my beliefs are similarly arrived at and as deeply held. Therefore, please do not try to convert me to your beliefs and will do the same. It is not belief that I am against - it's evangelism.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:54 AM

Yup, this thread is in grave danger of resorting to your God versus my God, or non god or whatever...

The thread is always going to have people, myself included, putting our own stance in front of our comments in order that others know where you are coming from. There are many ways to be religious and many ways to be non religious. I for instance am more comfortable with "irreligious" meaning it is as important to me as say stamp collecting or bird watching.

Many religious people are comfortable with the notion that governments should take religion into account and many atheists are comfortable with the notion of a secular legislature. Put the two views in the same room and of course you get fireworks. I see no reason why the needs of birdwatchers should be ignored whilst the needs of religious people need countries to acknowledge and conform to their views. if stamp collectors through whatever reason decided that they shouldn't go shopping on a particular day of the week, I doubt they would want a government to force shops to shut for the rest of us...

Mind you, this thread is already getting into the "prove God exists" realm. I doubt you can prove it, and by inference you can't prove otherwise. It depends on which level you want. You can't prove to me that an invisible furry creature isn't sat in front of my fire whilst I type here, but to be fair, i can't prove he does. At the extreme level, nothing exists until you observe it, or ceases to exist when you do. (I assume that if God did exist, he / it would exist also at the quantum level, hence Heisenberg appears to have killed him back in the early 1920's. Bit of a bugger, but there you go.)

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM

"What is the rationale that atheists have made... why does 'not believing' make them any more 'right' than me"

It doesn't. And I have no wish to elucidate my 'rationale' with anyone - except to say that it isn't 'not believing' it is believing in something different to Christians, Moslems, Jews, Hindus etc. I have friends from all of these faiths and we respect each other enough not to try to convert others to our beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:14 AM

["we could certainly discuss "rational" further"

Now there's an example of arrogance Steve.]

Why is that arrogant? You have decided to have faith in a being who breaks all the laws of physics, who can't be explained and for the existence of whom there is not one scrap of evidence. I think there is room for discussion as to whether belief in such a being is rational, that's all. Wrong thread anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:24 AM

"Religious knowledge". Isn't that phrase rather like "Military Intelligence".

I thought the point was that it was belief not knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:45 AM

Thinking requires thought. Believing doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 07:56 AM

"I have friends from all of these faiths and we respect each other enough not to try to convert others to our beliefs."

Yep, me too. Likewise friends of no faith. It's a personal issue and, just as I see no reason to accuse aetheists of irrationality, arrogance or mindlessnes, neither do I see any reason for them to accuse me of those things either.

Listening, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 08:17 AM

Backwoodsman, my accusations are against certain individuals, not a general principle.

One of the people I have the greatest respect for is my late grandfather. He had no formal education beyond the age of 12 but was the best-read and most knowledgeable and thoughtful person I have ever come across. He made his own mind up about religion and politics and was a committed Christian and a committed Socialist. He never tried to convert others to his beliefs. In fact, he seldom talked about either, even to his own family, but his entire life was devoted to his principles and almost every waking hour was spent helping others. My grandmother (who found it a struggle to bring up a family on a railwayman's wage) once remarked that if he'd been paid for all the time and energy he spent on helping others, he'd have been a rich man. His reply was, very simply, "That's not why I do it."

The fact that I follow one of his beliefs but not the other does not mean that I respect and admire him the less.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 09:58 AM

I understood that, Leveller - your previous explanation was to the point and cleared up the misunderstanding, thanks for that.

I just wonder why those who have no faith feel it necessary to hurl insults at those who do? Invariably, the insults begin whenever people of no faith (aetheists, or whatever they delight in badging themselves as) drop into a thread discussin faith - they always feel it necessary to insult and belittle those of us who do have faith.

For example - I've posted politely and without resorting to name-calling, yet earlier I was labelled as irrational by some fuckin' charmer who doesn't know me, doesn't know what my faith is, doesn't know what process took place in order for me to arrive at the choice of belief - in other words, knows diddly-fuckin'-squat. Yet he feels justified in insulting me because my beliefs don't align precisely with his version of the world.

THAT is fuckin' arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:10 AM

BW, if I recall correctly he did NOTlabel you as irrational; he said that the rationality of electing faith or bellief could be discussed further, which it can.

However, he was incorrect in asserting that there is not a scrap of evidence for the existence of God (depending, of course on definitions. I would say there definitely is a scrap of evidence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:24 AM

Well show me your evidence.

BW, 'twas you who first asserted that you made a rational choice to be a believer. You go off half-cock at me and get all sweary for accusing you of being irrational, etc. I don't think you're irrational at all, but I think there's room for discussion as to whether the decision to believe in a being who breaks all nature's laws, who can't be explained and for whom there isn't the slightest bit of evidence can be rational. Glad to clarify what was already clear. Just try to remember that it's us atheists who are supposed to be the militants.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

Religion is important, no matter what your personal beliefs. It is so enmeshed with our history that there's no way to understand what we are without perspective on religion.

As a non-religious person since I was 'about' 18-19, I have read far more scripture(s) than I did while attending church, and have an appreciation for the values in it as manifested in its best adherents, as well as for the problems and awkwardnesses I find.

Last night, Keith Olbermann asked Penn Gillette, the atheist 'magician' 5 questions from he survey...he got them all right...and so did I.

(If I remember right, Latin Catholics fared the worst on the survey)

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

Incidentally, I feel I should take issue with this:

"Invariably, the insults begin whenever people of no faith (aetheists, or whatever they delight in badging themselves as) drop into a thread discussin faith..."

I'm not aware. looking back at the original post, that this was intended as a thread for religious people to discuss their faith. Neither do I think that this forum would be the ideal place to try to do that. As far as I know, anyone here can drop into any thread they like and all have equal right to post.

And I presume the person who posted the above quote is unaware of the irony therein.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: olddude
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 11:57 AM

It sound so corny but what happen to live and let live huh ... I mean if you know the spirit of God and you feel it .. that is enough .. sure does for me .. No one that is a non believer or other believer or their God or non God threatens me in any manner. When someone knocks at my door and I am annoyed I say no thanks I have my belief and it works for me just fine and leave it at that. There are very good things about faith, and very bad things done in the name of religion .. mainly because like you pointed out they don't understand the teachings. if they did understand the teaching they wouldn't do those things ..

In any event, being told what to believe or not believe sets people off in a non positive manner. I guess that is why my mom always said stay away from religion and politics

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Amos: 'I would say there definitely is a scrap of evidence.'
Steve Shaw: 'Well show me your evidence.'

The language being used in these discussions is important. I'm sure Amos will be able to go into this more eloquently than I. But in discussions of this sort it's worthwhile identifying the various types of evidence that one might draw upon when coming to a rational conclusion regards one's belief or otherwise in the existence of God or Gods or what-not. Scientific evidence (the kind that is objective and reproducible) is only *one* of many types of evidence one might draw upon. As Wiki says, other kinds of evidence might include the testimony of others, direct personal experience, intuition, and anecdotal evidence. It might also be worth considering that testimony is extensively used as 'evidence' in respected disciplines like law, even though it might not be 'scientific'.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:05 PM

Steve:

This may sound like a cop-out, but you have to gather your own data on this one.



A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM

Aargh.

Little Hawk and Jim Dixon, my husband, who is a non-affiliated Christian (and a physicist, and who the habit of doing his homework on both fronts) is also not surprised at the public's ignorance about religion. He says that most people's approach to religion is cultural, and doesn't involve much attention to the details of theology.

The full details of the survey are now accessible. I'm going to actually take a look at it. Little Hawk's and Steamin' Willie's dismissal of the results on the blanket assumption that all surveys are biased is pretty sad: no valid research on human behavior is possible? Because of that assumption one shouldn't even bother to look? Please.

Bill D thanks for your input. I'm looking forward to the upcoming PBS series for just that reason.

The short summary of the survey results provide an interesting headline, but it's the details that I'm curious about.

The rest of you: there's already another two threads full of hundreds of posts with your arguments for and against. In this thread I'd like to discuss further details of the survey's results and the topic of religious literacy. Anyone else up for it?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

Well, as I've oft said before (I'm a recent convert to the notion, actually), I see no reason why something as important as God should not be subject to scientific investigation. We've already exempted him from needing to be explained or to explain himself, and we've allowed him to sidestep the laws of physics. Making him immune from proper investigation requiring real evidence would be the last straw. Testimony needs corroboration by independent witnesses, and I sure wouldn't like to be convicted of anything on the grounds of intuition or someone's unsupported personal experience or anecdotes.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM

Yes Becky. I agree that we're hijacking your thread. Ain't it always the way? (At least this one doesn't take five minutes per click to load up... ;-) )

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM

Steve Shaw, if you click on the number in the column to the right of the thread title, you can load up 60 messages at a time so it doesn't take 5 minutes.

Once again: In this thread I'd like to discuss further details of the survey's results and the topic of religious literacy. Anyone else up for it?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:37 PM

"Testimony needs corroboration by independent witnesses,"

Yes, in law this is enough to put someone to death. By comparison within certain spiritual traditions evidence described as 'verifiable personal gnosis' is contrasted to 'unverifiable personal gnosis'. With the former, personal experience is tested against and corroborated by the testimony of others. With the latter, personal experience is tested against and not corroborated by the testimony of others. Clearly the former is considered more valid as evidence of genuine gnosis or direct spiritual experience, than the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM

Personal gnosis is probably the strongest basis for religious conviction, if it hasn't just been beaten into you. But the problem with personal gnosis of even the most compelling sort is its individuality, subjectivity, and plasticity--people having strange spiritual moments will dub-in whatever imagery they can that will make things manageable. In the literature on NDE's, for example,this results in Christians seeing angels, while others do not. Some find relatives waiting for them, others see spirit guides, and others see a mental panorama that is not populated. So there's a wild variable which is hard for scientific sorts to manage. It is easy to use this as grounds for dismissing the whole subject. (Babies and bathwater).

This is also why it is really important to keep religion out of law and civil transactions.


A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:03 PM

Third warning. (of what, I'm not sure, although thread closure is under discussion with the Powers That Be).

In this thread I'd like to discuss further details of the survey's results and the topic of religious literacy. Anyone else up for it?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM

At least two prior posters (I've skipped ahead, and may have missed other instances) referred to atheists "not believing".

Let's get the terms straight: "Not believing" is not the same as "believing not".   An atheist, as I understand the term (and sometimes apply it to myself) "believes not". That is, (s)he affirmatively believes, and perhaps argues, that there is no god. Not just Yahweh, but Ahriman, Jupiter, and all the rest of the putative gods.

To "not believe" in the existence of a god is a much looser, less doctrinaire position: "The existence of a god is not clear to me, seems unlikely, and since I feel a need to ride one horse or the other I'll go with the position that seems more likely, to one degree or another." In essence, "I have not come to a position of adopting a position of affirmative belief."

An agnostic is by definition a "can't know-er", and so may be a "can't decider", or tentatively a "non-believer", or go whole hog and be a "believer not". An agnostic may be anywhere on the spectrum from a devout, practicing religionist to a turner-away from religion and religious practice, but can't rationally be a "missionary atheist".

Most of the time I describe myself as an "agnostic believer not", but occasionally, in some moods, I say, "Oh, to hell with academic caution, I'm an atheist!"--(a straight-out, express believer not). But before long I calm down and back away from that doctrinaire position and call myself an agnostic again. Most of the time.

Go thou, with my blessing, and believe/do what seemeth good to you.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:18 PM

"Anyone else up for it?"

I think the opening post was so nubulous that it failed to inspire discussion on the subject. You said you didn't have time to read the same links you posted for others to read, and as such offered no opinions on the topic yourself. That might be a part of the problem.
Why not start the debate?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:28 PM

Here's an idea I wish someone would research:

Are educated people any better than uneducated people at making rational judgments in daily life?

My experience is, yes, if it's an area they specialize in—just as a plumber is better than a non-plumber at knowing which wrench to use. But I find that outside their area of specialty, most people are idiots.

That doesn't stop them from having an opinion, though.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:59 PM

Crow Sister, to have a discussion about a report, 1) announce the report, 2) read the report and find others who have read it, 3) present questions and comments on the report, 4) discuss questions/answers/comments with others who have read the report.

1) done.
2) in progress.
3) a start:

- To have a survey of this type assumes that religious literacy has some importance. Is religious literacy important? (why or why not?)

- The Preface to the study report says:
In his 2007 book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know – And Doesn't, Boston University professor Stephen Prothero wrote that "Americans are both deeply religious and profoundly ignorant about religion." To support his contention, Prothero offered many compelling anecdotes and some isolated findings from public opinion polls. He also cited a few studies about the extent of biblical literacy among young people. But, as he discovered, there was no comprehensive, national survey assessing the general state of religious knowledge among U.S. adults.

Have you read this book? If so, what did you think of it?

- What details of the results of this study intrigue you?

- What are alternative interpretations of the data provided by this survey?

- What important or interesting questions about religious literacy are not answered by this survey? What would you like to see studied further?

- What are the the sources of variation in religious literacy?

- Should anything be done about improving religious literacy? Why or why not? If so what?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM

One key aspect of religion for some people is that it provides the kind of solultion that porecludes further inquiry; after all, once you have found the "only really true answer to everything" why look any further? A good stable answer--regardless of its truth value--serves to fend off confusion, uncertainty, doubt and fear by giving you a mental palisade and something to measure everything else against.

This probably induces a lack of curiousity in the faithful, wouldn't you think? It is not surprising, then, that those who have their answers firmly in place don't know as much about other answers to similar puzzles, as do those who don't think they have an answer or who think that those answers on offer are not a good fit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:09 PM

From a glance at the links it looks as if some of the questions were about politics rather than religion - for example about the US Constitution, which may be very important, but is not a sacred text in any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:08 PM

McGrath, that must have been a pretty brief glance. The survey was from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. They say, "The ... survey covered a wide range of topics, including the beliefs and practices of major religious traditions as well as the role of religion in American history and public life." The consitutional questions addressed people's knowledge the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which is about the relationship between government and religion, among other things:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The questions about teaching about religion in public school concerned peoples' understanding of how the First Amendment is interpreted/applied.

(Amos, I'm working on your comment.)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:09 PM

"You say gnosis, I say hallucination, let's call the whole thing off..."

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:20 PM

Amos, how does that position explain the fairly good results for Mormons?

Even if someone believes they have the answers, is there value in understanding what others (with different answers) believe their answers are? I think it's clear that there are curious faithful and non-curious faithful.

I find it an interesting report, but I'd like to see more of the data. I wonder if more will be forthcoming.

The key published analyses in the report are here:
- Who Knows What About Religion
- Factors Linked With Religious Knowledge

They did a multiple regression analysis to tease apart different factors and found that while education had a strong effect, if you held education constant, you get the result that got the headlines.

To address my question at the top (about the Mormons), what I'd like to see from the data is the relative education levels for different flavors of faith, and also geography. Blacks and Hispanics scored low -- certainly education could be a factor there.

There was a correlation between active religious study (as opposed to just going to church) and correct answers on the survey. The Mormon result might tie in with this, from what I understand of Mormon practice.

And inasmuch as the quantity or quality of education is related to poverty, it's interesting to look at the Gallup report at the end of August on a world survey (114 countries) of "religiosity" (= "is religion an important part of your daily life?") which found that "religiosity is highest in the world's poorest nations" (link).

However, the U.S. was one of a few rich countries that bucked that trend. NY Times Columnist Charles Blow made a great graphic in that charted religiosity against GDP per capita, grouping countries by their size and dominant religions. Unfortunately, the picture doesn't come up with the Op-Ed column. I've made an inquiry to see about getting it back up.

Jews also performed relatively well. Although they asked questions that provide the data on whether Jews identified themselves as more observant or more cultural (and less observant), they don't distinguish the results of these two groups. I would think that geography and education would be well-entangled with Jewishness in the U.S.

~ Becky in Long Beach

P.S. to Crow Sister: just because it's a discussion on Mudcat doesn't mean it has to be a "debate", does it?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:41 PM

The L.A. Times notes "For comparison purposes, the survey also asked some questions about general knowledge, which yielded the scariest finding: 4% of Americans believe that Stephen King, not Herman Melville, wrote "Moby Dick."

This is a good example of how survey results can be misstated. The author is confusing ignorance about a thing with belief in an alternative.

I doubt anyone actually believes Stephen King wrote "Moby Dick". All that can be stated with certainty is that when given the question "Who wrote 'Moby Dick'?" and possible answers of A) Herman Mellville or B) Stephen King, 4% of respondents didn't know the correct answer and guessed Stephen King incorrectly. You can safely assume another 4% also didn't know the correct answer but happened to guess correctly, which means at least 8% of Americans don't know Herman Melville wrote "Moby Dick".

A wrong answer on a multiple choice exam doesn't prove that the test taker believes his wrong answer is correct, only that he doesn't know the right answer and has guessed incorrectly. For that matter, a right answer doesn't always prove that the test taker actually knows his answer to be correct. He could have just guessed correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:52 PM

Bee-dubya-ell, that's certainly an important point in interpreting results. It's probably better to look at results comparatively, rather than taking any single number by itself.

On the topic, the report provides this note in the "FAQs About Measuring Religious Knowledge":

How did the survey account for people guessing at answers when questions were multiple-choice?

Guessing was possible, though interviewers subtly discouraged it, telling each respondent twice in the survey, "If you don't know the answer just tell me and we'll move to the next question." For all religious knowledge questions combined, a quarter of the time respondents volunteered that they did not know the answer, about the same rate as they gave wrong answers. The number of "don't knows" peaked at 71%, on a question about the Jewish philosopher Maimonides.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM

Also, I wonder how many people have such contempt for surveys that they deliberately give wrong answers.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:35 PM

Strategic guessing in multiple choice exams can give you quite a reasonable score. More often than not there are clues which can steer you towards the correct answers.
......................

As I commented Desert Dancer, and as you confirm, this wasn't a test restricted to "religious knowledge" as such, and didn't set out to be.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 04:35 PM

Can we take the test anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM

Mrzzy, the Pew Forum has a 15-question online "quiz" with some of the questions, here.

The full survey (a little complicated to read, since some questions were only asked on condition of answers in other questions) is available downloadable as a pdf here.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:05 PM

mmm Interesting. I scored 87%... has anyone else tried the test? But the questions are actually on 'religion' not 'Christianity'.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:19 PM

Georgiansilver, yes, that's a critical component of this survey: that it's not about one religion, or just the Bible, but looking at a reasonably broad knowledge.

One question was what the holy book of Islam was called -- I bet they would have gotten better results this fall than they did (the survey was done May 19-June 6, 2010).

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:42 PM

I got 14 out of 15, but then I'm not an expert on US Supreme Court rulings.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 10:10 PM

Georgiansilver, did you have any reason to expect that the questions would be on "Christianity" rather than "religion" in general? Or are you saying that you are not surprised that you missed some questions because some were on other religions? What is it that you find interesting?

--

A better PBS NewsHour link - an interview with one of the survey's creators.

One point he highlighted: "On the public school questions, it seems that people overestimate. They think that there are greater restrictions on the teaching of religion in public schools in the United States than there really are."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:08 AM

I got 100% on the 15-question quiz. But hey, I was a Theology major....

One question I can't answer is how to have a constructive discussion of a religious topic at Mudcat. Know what I mean? Is it possible to have a thread on a religious topic and begin by saying that we respect and acknowledge that many Mudcatters think religion is a bad thing, but we're not going to discuss that issue in that thread, because we want to discuss this survey...

Suggestions?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:08 AM

Well, the solution is apparently to start a separate thread with "atheism" in the title and then the survey discussion thread quiets down amazingly! Thanks, Slag! (I guess...)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:35 AM

The point I was making was why should people who are 'religious' be criticised on this thread for knowing less about religions than atheists or agnostics?? Most people who are 'religious follow a particular faith and may not have the general knowledge on 'religion' in general as the vociferous atheists and agnostics do... stands to reason!!!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:03 AM

Another atheist with 100 per cent here. Still, I'm the sort of person who invites Jehovah's Witnesses into the house, makes them tea and then keeps them trapped for an hour while making them wriggle around.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM

"One question I can't answer is how to have a constructive discussion of a religious topic at Mudcat. Know what I mean? Is it possible to have a thread on a religious topic and begin by saying that we respect and acknowledge that many Mudcatters think religion is a bad thing, but we're not going to discuss that issue in that thread, because we want to discuss this survey...

Suggestions?

-Joe-"

Complicated. You will have to set up a whole new board with strict guidelines as to what can be discussed. You can't have a great big "democratic" board like this, in which thread drift is rife (just look at how all that consciousness/quantum theory bilge derailed the Delusion thread! But I'm not bitter...) and ringfence one particular discussion area for strict rules. You could start a separate forum, like Dale Wisely did on Chiff, but that was an absolute bloody disaster and he had to bury it ignominiously without trace.

Thread drift and thread-hijacking is a cheerful fact of life. Let's live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

A major variable confounded with religious affiliation (sloppily including atheist) may be "level of education".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM

SPOILER ALERT: QUIZ & ANSWERS HERE

Question, Correct Answer, % of survey respondents answering correctly

1. Which Bible figure is most closely associated with leading the exodus from Egypt?         Moses         72%
2. What was Mother Teresa's religion?         Catholic         82
3. Which of the following is NOT one of the Ten Commandments?         Do unto others as you would have them do unto you         55
4. When does the Jewish Sabbath begin?         Friday         45
5. Is Ramadan…?         The Islamic holy month         52
6. Which of the following best describes the Catholic teaching about the bread and wine used for Communion?         The bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.         40
7. In which religion are Vishnu and Shiva central figures?         Hinduism         38
8. Which Bible figure is most closely associated with remaining obedient to God despite suffering?         Job         39
9. What was Joseph Smith's religion?         Mormon         51
10. According to rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, is a public school teacher permitted to lead a class in prayer, or not?         No, not permitted         89
11. According to rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, is a public school teacher permitted to read from the Bible as an example of literature, or not?         Yes, permitted         23
12. What religion do most people in Pakistan consider themselves?         Muslim         68
13. What was the name of the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation?         Martin Luther         46
14. Which of these religions aims at nirvana, the state of being free from suffering?         Buddhism         36
15. Which one of these preachers participated in the period of religious activity known as the First Great Awakening?         Jonathan Edwards         11

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

Spoil sport!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 12:39 PM

(A reminder -- the quiz is only 15 of the 32 questions)

Georgiansilver, I'm sorry about the criticisms, I've been trying to ignore that part of the thread.

But, I wonder why it "stands to reason" that a person with a particular religious affiliation would not have a broad knowledge about religion in the world. I would think that level of education would be the number one factor here, but it's interesting that it's not. (Wolfgang, as I mentioned above, they did a multiple regression analysis to tease it apart.)

I would think it would "stand to reason" that a religious person would be knowledgable about their own religion. Although the Atheist/agnotic group, Jews had the best overall results, the evangelical Christians and Mormons did the best on questions about Christianity and Bible. The A/a, Jews did best on the questions about World religions and Religion in public life: see table.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM

I scored above 87% of the general population on the 15 question survey and I only have a GED, so there can be instances when lack of formal education does not preclude knowledge. I think I know exactly the three which I missed. I'll have to go check. I also scored much, much higher in all of the categories provided for comparison and I can count on fingers and toes, plus maybe Rog's fingers and toes, how many times I've set foot in any church.

I hope folks will get back to discussing the testing, etc. rather than the other stuff which, as others have noted, has been done to death in other threads and needn't clutter up this one, imo.

kat spiritual, not religious

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:14 PM

kat, certainly level of formal education and level of general knowledge don't necessarily equate!

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: kendall
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:25 PM

"Religion is for weak minded fools." (Jesse Ventura)
Is his opinion valid here?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:35 PM

Copied from the BS: True Test of an Atheist thread, in response to part of a post from Joe Offer:

From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM

Joe, you said "even a reputable organization like the Pew trust, seems to emphasize information as a necessary aspect of religious faith". The point of that "religious knowledge" survey was to look at just that -- knowledge of information among U.S. adults -- without any judgement as to what's necessary to faith. Stephen Prothero's book, "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know – And Doesn't" does argue that such literacy is important in American life. He found there was no good data, however, and that's what the Pew survey was meant to correct. I don't think either Pew or Prothero judged it as a "necessary aspect of religious faith".

From the Preface to the report:

"...we also decided that, no matter what the results, we would not give the public an 'A,' an 'F' or any other grade because we have no objective way of determining how much the public should know about religion. Moreover, we could have designed harder questions, or easier ones. As it happens, through a combination of good survey design and good luck, the results were an almost perfect bell curve in which the average score was exactly half of the 32 possible correct answers, and very few people got all questions right or all questions wrong. Readers can decide for themselves whether this justifies Prothero's conclusion or not."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:09 PM

Also from the other thread:

Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM

I did notice one interesting thing in the survey results which no one else commented on:

While "Atheists/Agnostics" ranked high in their knowledge of religion, people who said their religion was "nothing in particular" ranked rather low.

One wonders, what is the difference between "atheists/agnostics" and "nothing in particular?" Well, my first guess is, the "atheists/agnostics" are people who are interested in religion (as a social phenomenon, or whatever), and the "nothing in particular" people who are not interested, and therefore don't even bother to adopt a label for themselves. Another possibility: the "nothing in particular" people believe in some kind of god, but they don't want to join any religious group. But that doesn't explain why they would rank so low in their knowlege of religion--or does it? I guess we are free to speculate.

---

This result is highlighted in footnote #3 of the Executive Summary of the results, is that there is a big difference in the results between self-identified "atheists" and "agnostics" (who had to be lumped together because there were so few of each) and those who declined those terms and called themselves "nothing in particular":

"Atheists and agnostics answer an average of 20.9 questions correctly, compared with an average of 15.4 correct answers among people with low religious commitment who do not describe themselves as atheists or agnostics." (from the footnote)

I can't find it in the report (although it's certainly in the data), but one of the researchers said in an interview, "...my hypothesis [in response to the results, not a priori] is that people who self-identify as atheists and agnostics are people who have actually thought a lot about religion, paid a lot of attention to it. We know that 75 percent of them were raised as Christians. So, it's not that they haven't had exposure to religion." (PBS NewsHour interview)

As to what the "nothing in particular" folks are, they come from these survey questions:

20. What is your present religion, if any? Are you Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox such as Greek or Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else, or nothing in particular?

(INTERVIEWER: IF R VOLUNTEERS "nothing in particular, none, no religion, etc." BEFORE REACHING END OF LIST, PROMPT WITH: and would you say that's atheist, agnostic, or just nothing in particular?)

ASK IF RELIGION IS SOMETHING ELSE, NOTHING IN PARTICULAR, DK OR REFUSED:
CHR. Do you think of yourself as a Christian or not?

--

The data exists as to how many (not appropriate to say "whether") the "nothing in particular" people "believe in God or a universal spirit, or not" (from question #26 in the survey), but I'm not finding that separated out in the results that are reported. I have a friend who has inquired as to whether they will release their data set...

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

NPR says they'll have the test on their website, I just heard... back in a few!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM

Here are the full set of knowledge questions (from the "Who Knows What About Religion" part of the report):

Pew Forum Religious Knowledge Questions

Questions below have been paraphrased for brevity; most response options were rotated. See topline survey results (Appendix B) for exact wording and question order.

Bible
What is the first book of the Bible? (Open-ended)
What are the names of the first four books of the New Testament, that is, the four Gospels? (Open-ended)
Where, according to the Bible, was Jesus born? Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Nazareth or Jericho?
Which of these is NOT in the Ten Commandments? Do unto others…, no adultery, no stealing, keep Sabbath?
Which figure is associated with remaining obedient to God despite suffering? Job, Elijah, Moses or Abraham?
Which figure is associated with leading the exodus from Egypt? Moses, Job, Elijah or Abraham?
Which figure is associated with willingness to sacrifice his son for God? Abraham, Job, Moses or Elijah?

Elements of Christianity
What is Catholic teaching about bread and wine in Communion? They become body and blood, or are symbols?
Which group traditionally teaches that salvation is through faith alone? Protestants, Catholics, both or neither?
Was Mother Teresa Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or Mormon?
What is the name of the person whose writings and actions inspired the Reformation? Luther, Aquinas or Wesley?
Who was a preacher during the First Great Awakening? Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney or Billy Graham?

Elements of Judaism
When does the Jewish Sabbath begin? Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
Was Maimonides Jewish, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu or Mormon?

Elements of Mormonism
When was the Mormon religion founded? After 1800, between 1200 and 1800, or before 1200 A.D.?
The Book of Mormon tells of Jesus appearing to people in what area? The Americas, Middle East or Asia?
Was Joseph Smith Mormon, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu?

World Religions
Is Ramadan the Islamic holy month, the Hindu festival of lights or a Jewish day of atonement?
Do you happen to know the name of the holy book of Islam? (Open-ended)
Which religion aims at nirvana, the state of being free from suffering? Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam?
Is the Dalai Lama Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Catholic or Mormon?
In which religion are Vishnu and Shiva central figures? Hinduism, Islam or Taoism?
What is the religion of most people in India? Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or Christian?
What is the religion of most people in Pakistan? Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Christian?
What is the religion of most people in Indonesia? Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Christian?
Who is the king of Gods in Greek mythology? Zeus, Mars or Apollo?

Atheism and Agnosticism
Is an atheist someone who does NOT believe in God, believes in God, or is unsure whether God exists?
Is an agnostic someone who is unsure whether God exists, does NOT believe in God, or believes in God?

Religion in Public Life
What does Constitution say about religion? Separation of church and state, emphasize Christianity, or nothing?
According to the Supreme Court, can a public school teacher lead a class in prayer?
According to the Supreme Court, can a public school teacher read from the Bible as an example of literature?
According to the Supreme Court, can a public school teacher offer a class comparing the world's religions?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM

I got 15 out of 15 correct. . . But!

Somewhere earlier in this thread I had been tipped off about Jonathan Edwards, which I wouldn't have otherwise known. Had I not known, I would have eliminated one of the three choices (Graham) as laughable, and so would have had a choice of two (Finney and Edwards)left, which I would have decided by chance, so I MIGHT still have achieved 100%, but I equally might NOT have guessed correctly. I forget, at this moment, whether the sample 15 gave "don't know" as an option for each question. If it did, I should have chosen that one.   

Frankly, I thought the sample set of 15, at least, should have generally been pitifully obvious to any grown-up (with the exception, in my case, of Edwards).

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Slag
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 06:59 PM

Second look, first posting here.

Well, Joe, amazingly I also score 100%! What were the odds? Well, I didn't get the one about personal income correct but, hey! I never do get that one right!

The questions were simple and probably good survey questions for general knowledge about things religious. It would be interesting to see a correlation between level of interest and actual knowledge. The most "esoteric" question was the one about Johnathan Edwards as he has not been much in the news of late. I heard James Whitfield mentioned on Glen Beck's sermonette the other day. Whitfield would have made a great question on the survey as would the "Great Awakening".

They could have also mentioned Parmahansa Yogananda, Vivekanda, Emanuel Swedenborg (of whom John Chapman was follower) What? You don't know who John Chapman was!!??? (No!, not the guitarist!), and the Great Sky Fairy!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM

Yeah 100% for me too.

Something is BOGUS.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Sprinkled, later dripped,and finally washed in the blood before thrice dunked. Thrice the Evidence that arrived at a Verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 11:18 PM

Um, perhaps our sample of quiz-takers here is not representative of the U.S. population?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:27 AM

Well, I'm a Baptist, and I doubt if there's a question there that I would have gotten wrong. But I'm not surprised at the overall results. Even the "Jonathan Edward <> First Great Awakening" one, which strikes me as pretty abstruse to be asking random members of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: GUEST,Neil
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:53 AM

I am a secular humanist who got 15 out of 15 correct. Question 14 is deceptive because the concept of Nirvana is taught in Hinduism and Jainism as well as Buddhism. I said Buddhism because there had already been a question with Hinduism as the correct answer. If I had said Hinduism I would have been equally correct but the survey would have scored me incorrect. I'm actually surprised that 11% knew Jonathan Edwards led the great awakening. I thought it would be even lower. Here's a bit of unrelated trivia. Who was Jonathan Edwards more famous grandson. Did you have to look it up?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 10:55 AM

I know, but only because I had to read about him when the survey brought it up...

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 11:30 AM

Again:

- To have a survey of this type assumes that religious literacy has some importance. Is religious literacy important? (why or why not?)

- The Preface to the study report says:
In his 2007 book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know – And Doesn't, Boston University professor Stephen Prothero wrote that "Americans are both deeply religious and profoundly ignorant about religion." To support his contention, Prothero offered many compelling anecdotes and some isolated findings from public opinion polls. He also cited a few studies about the extent of biblical literacy among young people. But, as he discovered, there was no comprehensive, national survey assessing the general state of religious knowledge among U.S. adults.

Have you read this book? If so, what did you think of it?

- What details of the results of this study intrigue you?

- What are alternative interpretations of the data provided by this survey?

- What important or interesting questions about religious literacy are not answered by this survey? What would you like to see studied further?

- What are the the sources of variation in religious literacy?

- Should anything be done about improving religious literacy? Why or why not? If so what?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:07 PM

In retrospect, not wanting to go back and check it for the exact reading, in the Mormon section there were only three questions, as I recall. Two of them dealt with Joseph Smith, one as a founder choice and the other dealing with his location. Seems to me that a reader who reflects only a little bit on that combination would have to conclude that Joseph Smith had a strong position with regard to the LDS, and infer (if he didn't know) that he's the choice for LDS founder.

Poor test/survey design, methinks.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM

In my 30 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM post you can see all the questions, although their exact wording and order is not the same as on the survey.

Looking at the survey itself, the when and where of Mormonism were questions 42 and 43 (and to be varied in order between them). The question on Joseph Smith was question 48c. (Questions on identifying the religion of Smith, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, and Maimonides were grouped together.) Joseph Smith is only mentioned in the one question.

Uncle DaveO, do you have any further thoughts on the issue of the survey in general?

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:21 PM

Becky, I have egg all over my face.

I had what I thought was a fairly close memory of the relevant Mormon questions. I would have bet heavy money that I was pretty close to them in what I said in my last prior post.

I have no idea at this point how I got the ideas I set forth in that post. I was all wet, mistaken, wrong, and I apologize to everyone if I confused the issues.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa! I'll try to go forth and sin no more.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

Becky, as to "any further thoughts" about the survey, I guess I've come close to blowing any credibility I might have on this subject.

That's not to say that I won't have anything further to say about it. Now having credibility on a subject never stopped me before, so why should it here?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Slag
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 04:28 PM

Edwards, Whitfield, The Great Awakening and later, the Wesley brothers are all very important to the history of this nation. Too long we, as a nation, have seen "Establishment" clause as a "seperation" clause and the seperation idea as complete and utter divorcement of church and state when religious ideation and behavior has had so much to do with the founding of this country. Without making any value judgements beyond the obvious, such events as the Great Awakening and circuit riding, tent meetings (which passed in its day as the sole source of entertainment for most folks) and the like had a profound effect in the development and direction(s) we took. It is history and it ought to be studied.

All of history demonstrates an integral connection between the religion of the people and their government. It defines purpose and intent, future outlook, what is tolerable and what is not. It influences architechture, art, exchange media, progress, motivators, etc. One cannot truly say they understand history until they also understand the religion of the people they study. And as a tool for both good and evil we ignore it at our peril.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Oct 10 - 07:12 PM

Slag, I hope you'll join the thread I'll likely start when the PBS program comes on (God in America from American Experience and Frontline).

People do things according to their values (mostly!). How their values are shaped and what the outcomes of their actions are is what history is about.

A few days out from the survey report's release, now, there is more response, as opposed to straight reportage, visible online:

The Washington Post: On Faith section had fifteen panelists respond here.

They're an interesting assortment.

The response of several is the same as Joe's: religion is not about facts. Churches might worry about this, but apparently believers may not -- the ARIS study shows that over time more U.S. Christians are becoming dissociated from identifying with any particular denomination, and a Pew study on young people reinforces this.

I'd say, yeah a deeper understanding is required. It's hard to survey that on the phone. This obviously scratches the surface, but it does give some glimpse of what people are paying attention to. Or not paying attention to. For what that's worth...

Half-empty or half-full? In any well-designed test of general knowledge, 50% of respondents will have below average performance. :-) It's not hard to be shocked at what Americans don't know. Jay Leno has a good time with it. Stephen Prothero, whose book, "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't", in part inspired this survey, is one (among many) who finds the results confirm his premise.

On the other hand, in the Huffington Post: Bruce Feiler in an essay entitled, "God in the U.S.A.: Americans Know More About Religion Than Most Other Subjects" focuses on the positives in the results: "Americans know more about religion than almost any other topic." (This from comparing answers to the "general knowledge" questions on the survey.) Also, he says, "Americans know as much about other religions as they know about their own."

It is a challenge, both here on Mudcat and elsewhere, to get people to understand what the data say and what they don't. Among the Washington Post panelists, Aseem Shukla says, "...what to make of a dispiriting testament to another discipline where we Americans fall short?" but this study says nothing about how Americans compare to any other nation on this topic.

Also in the Washington Post collection, John Mark Reynolds says "religious Americans must reject the temptation to retreat into a comforting anti-intellectualism. For Christians at least, we are called to live by faith and faith is intellectual. It is not merely intellectual, it is driven by love, but head and heart can never be separated." I'd agree with that, if I wasn't made suspicious by having had to clench my teeth to get through his preceding comments about "elite education" and the "secular elite".

I had to grit my teeth for quite a while, but his points are good:

"we must demand that our government schools teach religion, not just the "facts" but with understanding. Wisdom will only come when we recognize why billions of the world's people believe what they do. This means that majority Christians must also accept charitable expositions of other faiths. When the state of Texas demands less coverage of Islam this is a bad step.

"We must do unto others as we would have them do to us. We must allow students to read books that come from different traditions, from atheism to paganism. The intellectual growth that will result will not be the sort that can be captured in a fill-in-the-blanks or multiple choice exam. Instead, we are going to have to support government school budgets that to allow for small discussion classes that can produce a deeper understanding of important ideas.

"Ignorance about things vital to our fellow citizens is harmful to the Republic."

I can't argue with that.

Many folks who posted their reviews on Amazon.com of Prothero's "Religious Literacy" book, complained that it described the issue, but did nothing to solve it. He's got a new book: "God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World--and Why Their Differences Matter." I think I'm going to get hold of that one.

And on a procedural note: Apparently the Pew Forum does post its full datasets, usually within six months, so this one is not available yet but will be. Others (like the 2008 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey) can be found for download here.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
From: Neil D
Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:59 AM

"One cannot truly say they understand history until they also understand the religion of the people they study"

Maybe that's why non-believers scored so well on the test, they know more history. I know I did so well on the 15 question precisely because I read so much history, not because I've studied religions per se. And it was a burgeoning knowledge of history, moreso than science, that led me away from religion when I was a teenager.