EFDSS AGM , Wassup?

Subject: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:12 AM

I note , as an ordinary member of many years, that EFDSS has not arranged any event to accompany the AGM in Sheffield. Is this another example of the Metrocentric approach, or have I missed something?


After all we are 'Folk City UK'!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:43 AM

Raise it at the meeting.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:00 AM

As far as I can recall there weren't any events at the last AGM I went to in London. Anyway, I'm none too sure why there should be ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:20 AM

"Anyway, I'm none too sure why there should be ?"

To engage with the membership outside of London when the society's activity seems increasingly London-focused?

To acknowledge and celebrate the rich seam of activity currently happening in Sheffield?

To encourage the maximum possible attendance at the first meeting to take place outside of London in several years, by making it an attractive and fun experience?

Just a couple of ideas - not that it's actually any of my business, as I am no longer a member.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:18 AM

Ruth, why have you resigned? is it a protest about a particular occurence

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,surreysinger
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:55 PM

Yep, I think I can see your point Ruth. Although I have to say that it's sad if you have to use enticements to attract peope along to discuss (hopefully) serious points, but if it attracts a few more people along than might otherwise have gone that can presumably only be a good thing. However, on this occasion, as it's in Sheffield I'm not going to be able to attend.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

Surely if you've got a lot of people together who share a love of folk music it's a bit strange if they don't have a chance to enjoy some? Though of course there's no way to stop them doing so if they wish...

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:42 PM

What's an AGM?

-Joe, acronymically challenged-

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

Annual General Meeting...

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:10 AM

"Surely if you've got a lot of people together who share a love of folk music it's a bit strange if they don't have a chance to enjoy some?"

Indeed, McGrath. And from what I remember, the reason Sheffield in particular was chosen by the Board for the EFDSS AGM this year is precisely because it is such a thriving hotbed of folk activity, from the major artists based there to the ceilidh bands and top quality music and song sessions. There was also a desire to demonstrate to the membership that EFDSS isn't just about things that happen in London.

It is a very odd turn of events to decide to celebrate activity that's happening outside of London, and then to go there and pretty much ignore it.

But to be honest, very little surprises me anymore.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM

There will be sessions in pubs , maybe local South Yorkshire carol sessions and I'm sure poeple will mention them. Even an interesting lecture would have been nice as a bonus and attraction. It's a great lecture hall. Maybe we should 'flash mob' it

I understand approaches were made to offer events but were not pursued by those in the Sharpsville Ghetto

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:18 PM

I / we attended the last none London agm which was also held in Sheffield mostly at the behest of the then ED&S editor and at the school he happened to work at.

There were no attendant events then and he was obviously aware of wnat was on offer. It was also the worst attended agm for many years and by a country mile.

I am at a loss as to why this particular agm should be in Sheffield - it is fairly handy for motorways but not particularly good for public transport especially at weekends.

As for Sheffield being a hotbed for folk activity may one ask by who's definition or judgement?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 03:56 AM

Malcolm: Bright Phoebus, Royal Traditions, Kelham Island singing sessions, the uni ceilidh society, Pecsaetan Morris, Sheffield City Morris, Sheffield Giants, Boggarts Breakfast, Glorystrokes/Hekety and their respective members' bands and projects, Trinculo, Hield/Bodens, Simpsons, Kerr/Fagans, Sheffield Carols...these all spring immediately to mind. I'm sure others could add to the list of what makes Sheffield a folk hub at the moment.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:09 AM

Well Malcolm, nothing like nailing one's colours to the mast is there? Even if the facts are wrong.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:15 AM

Yes (I am not the guest above)probably Paul D or Dave Eyre who posted the above I suspect! or could have!!

I agree with the above that Sheffield and my beloved Barnsley are hot beds currently (Hull is fast creeping up! Malcolm)

As a non member of EFDSS of very many years!! I have stood and watched the bitter infighting, I am sure that I fully agree with the original dance and song aims but London may as well be Timbuktoo to me!

When is the meeting is it members only! and if no other events what is its purpose apart from EFDSS business at the AGM
Ray on lap top

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:34 AM

Ray, why make a statement like that? You clearly don't know me as well as you think. I sign my name to my postings. Had it been me, I would have included, Sheffield Ballads Club, Raise the Roof, Robber's Dog FC and Skyhook.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Ruth astray
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 04:40 AM

Actually, it was me from my iPhone. Thanks, Paul, for the additions to my very quick, riding-the-car list. Just passing Sheffield now, as it happens. I'll wave. :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM

Since others raised the issue I thought, for the sake of completeness to answer the question regarding Sheffield's folk activities. The following are all considered by their participants to be Sheffield based.

Clubs: Royal Traditions, Sheffield Storytellers, 1st & 3rd Acoustic Club,Booit Straps FC, Hillsborough Folk, The Story Forge, Rivelin Folk, Sheffield Ballads Club, Raise the Roof, Crookes FC, Beehive FC, Cartwheel 3, No Smoke Foke, Play On, First Friday, Royal Folk, Wortley FC, Robber's Dog FC.

Dance teams etc: Sheffield Uni Ceilidh Soc, Pecsaetan Morris, Sheffield City Morris, Three Rivers Morris, Boggart's Breakfast, Sheffield Giants, Handsworth Sword Dancers, Grenoside Sword Dancers, Sharp's Ladies Sword, Triskele Sword.

Singers and Bands: Roy Bailey, Martin Simpson, Robin Garside, James Fagan & Nancy Kerr, Jon Boden, Fay Hield, Gavin Davenport, Richard & Jess Arrowsmith, Helena Reynolds, John & Vic Bowden, James Reynard, Simon Heywood, Raymond Geeenoaken, Kate Green, Sheffield Folk Chorale, Graham & Eileen Pratt, Gloristrokes, Skyhook, Hekety, Tinculo.

Sessions: Fagin's, Hillsborough Sessions, Kelham Sessions, Riverside Sessions.

Now it would be churlish perhaps to remark upon the proximity of Kate Rusby, Damien O'Kane, Dave Burland, Hedgehog Pie, Maltby Phoenix Sword, Barnsley Longsword, The Rock FC and many other folk entities so close to Sheffield as to easily be accessed and who are frequent participants in folk activies in the city.
Paul

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 06:19 AM

very little surprises me about the EFDSS.
For goodness sake holding an AGM and not involving the local folk community, bloody typical, it reminds me of Comhaltas and the County Fleadhs.
At least with the regional and national fleadhs comhaltas does involve with the local community.
who are the people in EFDSS that make these decisions.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:30 AM

I am at a loss as to why this particular agm should be in Sheffield - it is fairly handy for motorways but not particularly good for public transport especially at weekends.

Err........round spherical objects. Sheffield has a terrific public transport system. It isn't cheap - but all of it is free to the over-60s.

Public transport is less frequent on Sundays. Do you know anywhere where this doesn't happen?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM

Train, Coach Motorway then park and ride then Supertram or bus straight to the door!

Be there or be square.

I meant 'Fiolk City facetiously as it has been labelled that by others, butPaul's only scratched the surface and listed those he knows.

We have real traditional singers too as well as folkies.

---

Guest is mikesamwild, who forgot to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 09:06 AM

My apologies Paul Davenport

I dont know you at all, nor do you know me

I tried to say that the sentiments in the Guest post "could" have come from you, and lots of other Sheffield mudcat folkies

Clearly totally wrong as you emphasised the Sheffield case mentioning everyone!!

I will NOT POST anything more

Best of luck to you all and sort it out!!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM

Well that livened it up a bit! I can take my tongue out of my cheek now. I just hate sweeping statements.

I still stick by the bit about public transport - as it is the norm in most cities apart from London and I meant for those travelling from afar.

Try it from Brighton for instance! The quickest train is 4 hours with 2 changes and most are nearer 5 hours. Most London trains from Brighton are about 1 hour. Similar points can be made about most major destinations - even Carlisle to London is as quick as Carlisle to Sheffield and involves no changes. I am no lover of London but it is the easiest place to get to in England from almost anywhere.

And what other FACTS did I get wrong Paul - surely you mean assertions? if indeed such is the case.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 11:21 AM

Wouldn't the idea of dispensing with music have been to try to cut down the chances of too many people turning up? More especially musicians.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:27 PM

Presumably the idea of a regional AGM was to counter the accusations that EFDSS is too London-centric. Any location is going to have its pros and cons. However if the idea is to persuade sceptical northerners that EFDSS is indeed a national body, it seems strange to have an event for members without any associated events to attract non-members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:30 PM

"I am no lover of London but it is the easiest place to get to in England from almost anywhere.

And what other FACTS did I get wrong Paul - surely you mean assertions? if indeed such is the case."
complete crap,Malcolm, try driving to london from aberdeen, or from cornwall, or from aberystywyth or better still Wick.
Have you tried driving there from fort william.
the easiest place to get to in England, from anywhere else, and by rail and road is Derby.
I know , I have travelled all the roads of england scotland wales many times more than you have sunshine.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:42 PM

As any fule kno the easiest places to get to from anywhere else are Stoke on Trent, then London.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:55 PM

Malcolm wrote, 'the last none London agm which was also held in Sheffield mostly at the behest of the then ED&S editor and at the school he happened to work at.'
Fact, Maltby, where the meeting took place, is in Rotherham. The rest is an 'assertion' which is made with no evidence to support it. You were not present when the request was made to me by the National Council to host the meeting at Maltby so why make an assertion you are not qualified to make?
There were no attendant events? Were you actually there?
What is most interesting is that the reason why Maltby was asked to host the meeting. This was so that the membership would be able to see the results of the society's initiative in South Yorkshire. The project was initiated by Mark Gibbons, who was then working for the society. The Generations Project was supported by EFDSS, Folk-South West, The Music Room, Sheffield Museums Trust, Rotherham Borough Council and SRFAN. It was driven by teachers from the South Riding Folk Arts Network (Ron & Jenny Day, Cath James and others) input was made by Pecsaetan Morris and musicians from Sheffield. The project reached into every school in the Maltby catchment area and lasted for a year.
The number of students from the various schools in Maltby who demonstrated their music and sword dancing on that occasion was considered too great to afford to move the children to London for the day. The catering was also prepared by the students of the school and many people commented on what a refreshing change the meeting had been.
'It was also the worst attended agm for many years and by a country mile.'
The event was well attended and a number of people expressed their gratitude at having the event in an accessible place having been unable to afford travel to London for many years. It is true that the London contingent and the Friends of Cecil Sharp House were conspicuous by their absence.
I am unable to comment (even with my tongue in my cheek) on the reasons for the current AGM being held in Sheffield – for the first time.
Paul

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM

my apologies Malcolm , for calling you sunshine, Iam a bit stressed at the moment, with different matters.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 07:48 PM

That's all right Dick Dearie - Oh by the way it's the ENGLISH Folk Dance & Song Society - at least it is not ashamed of being English.

Hello Paul -
1)
YOU told me you had requested the meeting and I believed you.
2)
Sheffield area one minute, Rotherham the next - come on be consistent.
3)
But no participatory events which is what other people mean I'm thinking.
4)
I stick by the numbers.
5)
Lighten up.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 07:50 PM

Oh and thanks to those who saved me having to do a search for a listing of Sheffield AREA things.

Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:55 AM

hows the cricket, Malcolm, bowled any maiden overs lately.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 12:03 PM

Most London trains from Brighton are about 1 hour.

It is 53 miles approx. The standard train time from Sheffield - London is 2 hours 7 minutes for 150 miles. Our trains our well over twice as fast.

Of course if you want to give really daft examples, it is a further 1 hour 25 minutes to Lille in France, so Sheffield is 3.5 hours from Lille and I'd call that excellent transport links. One change of train and no change of station.

To people in Sheffield Maltby is in the Sheffield area - indeed I include the "Rock at Maltby" in my folk club listings each week on my radio show.

A list of artistes appearing in the Sheffield area this forthcoming week starting tonight:

Roy Bailey, Inge Thomson, Fraser Fifield, Martin Green, Will Pound, Simon Care, Fay Hield, O'Hooley and Heidi Tidow, Skyhook, Harvey Andrews, Cockersdale and the McCalmans. That is just the nationally known ones.

And linking the two things together we have a once a month Folk Train. Now I call THAT public transport!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

I forgot to mention Sheffield is also the home of Henderson's Relish. You can't get more folky than that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

Derby's central location and former importance as a 'railway town' have made it an important node of the rail network. First opened in 1844, it was at the time one of the largest in the country and was unusual for being shared by more than one company. Until recently, major carriage and locomotive workshops as well as the Research Division in the Railway Technical Centre were housed there.

The station is an interchange point between the Midland Main Line from London St Pancras to Leeds and long-distance services on the Cross-Country route from Aberdeen through Birmingham New Street to Penzance or Bournemouth (the zero milepost on the latter route is at the south end of platform 1). Until the mid twentieth century, the station was also served by through trains from Manchester and Glasgow to London. It is still a busy station, the section to Sheffield having the highest train frequency (passenger and freight) of any line in the East Midlands.[citation needed]

Local services from Nottingham to Matlock along the Derwent Valley Line serve the station as well as local and semi-fast services to, Stoke-on-Trent, Crewe, Birmingham and Cardiff Central.

Derby station today has six platforms (all but Platform 5 are through platforms), connected by a footbridge, used as an exit to Pride Park and a car park.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:37 PM

Well Dick Dearie

Are you thinking of relocating to Derby or just applying for the job of special ambassador not in residence?

Takes three hours on the train from Selby, I can drive it in less than half that!

I retired from playing cricket shortly before my 65th birthday, having derived great pleasure from playing the game at school and local club level for over 50 years. I had the tremendous delight to join my son and grandson (then 13) in a club game where we all did our bit, especially my grandson who is easily the best cricketer the Storeys' have produced to date. Google "Jack Storey, cricket" for more.

Also don't forget - the older we get, the better we were!

Oh and while I remember - somewhere on Tyneside claims to be "The Centre of Britain"!!!!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:09 AM

I thought it was Haltwhistle in the Lake District...

In any case, I'm not sure that the point of the exercise was to have the meeting in the most geographically central place, or the place that is most accessible by public transport. The idea was to reflect an organisation that has an engagement with its regional membership and not all about London.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:17 AM

And the Boardwalk has just been voted 4th most Iconic Venue in the world by NME. And Gav Davenport's also on this Tuesday.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

The idea was to reflect an organisation that has an engagement with its regional membership and not all about London.

It will be interesting to see how successful this is. However I do think that by not having any events associated with the AGM the EFDSS has missed an opportunity to engage with those in the regions who are not currently members and who need to be persuaded that it is "not all about London" if they are to join.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:41 AM

I can't make up my mind which are worse. The self appointed guardians of our culture, or the minority elected guardians of our constitution, that in the House of Commons do dwell.
All they both seem to do is snipe at each other, and insist that THEIR way, is right.
In the meantime, fuck all changes!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:54 AM

But it might just convince those in the regions who are *already members* that they ought to renew their subscription for next year. That's providing the Board and the Executive actually want to maintain a membership organisation, of course - but at the moment, given the amount of revenue represented by the membership, and given the precarious state of ACE and other arts subsidy, members' subscriptions must be a pretty precious resource that lots of other arts organisations would give their eye teeth for. My reasons for letting my membership lapse were, to be frank, a simple matter of geography. As someone who lives in Lincolnshire, there isn't a lot of benefit in membership for me, and I don't see much evidence of EFDSS impact in the midlands (or anywhere outside of Camden) - so whty do I want to pay my money to subsidise an already over-subsidised and very crowded London arts scene? If I want to go to an event at CSH, I can shlep down to London and pay my money like anyone else - but there are very few performances that take place there that I can't see closer to home, in venues that are far more comfortable and fit for purpose as performance spaces, so why bother?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

I was in it for many years - convinced that I had to be in it to change it. I left convinced I was wrong.

I was recruited back into it by the very persuasive tongue of one of the major players in the society who convinced me I ought to be in - if only to get the magazine which he convinced me was excellent in content and style.

I have done an article for said magazine and had the honour of reviewing some records for it.

At the moment I am a bit ambivalent. It seems to have gone London-centric perhaps "again" even, and the weekend it has its AGM in Sheffield I shall be in Dublin. Bugger.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM

I don't pay my EFDSS subscription for what I can get out of it - other than quite a good magazine - but because I think it deserves supporting. As well as housing the library, which makes sense being in the capital, it seems to be doing very much better as a PR for our music on a national level than in the past. I see the EFDSS as a central lighthouse, catalyst and hub, I don't expect it to send up offshoots everywhere. It has a building, it gets used - what's wrong with that?

Would I go to the AGM if it had some nice music attached? Almost certainly not. Would I want to sit in an audience or dance in a ceilidh full of the sort of people who go to AGMs? Definitely not!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:26 PM

I remember Martin Carthy,many years ago at Whitby, commenting on a particular performer ,not, me , who is this berk.
an apt comment for the previous poster.
for f####,sake this folknacious, he wonT got to the agm if there is nice music attached, he wont dance or sit in an audience at a ceilidh full of the sort of people who go to AGMS.
the sort of people who go to AGMS are not a different breed of people, they are people, the same as any other people with vastly differing opinions,not to be stereotyped by someperson who thinksby paying an annual fee he has done his bit.
to paraphrase Carthy, who is this berk

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:33 PM

my apologies folknacious, if my sentiments are a bit strong, having a bad day, some idiot tried to wreck my car, by doing a 3 point turn on a main road.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:52 PM

It sometimes strikes me that if you didn't have the society, someone would rapidly invent it. They would then be the perceived voice of folk music as far as the 'establishment' was concerned. Actually, EFDSS doesn't need your money. They have managed to become a funded organisation via the Arts Council. This means that when the great and the good want to know about folk music and dance they aren't going to come to 'Folknacious', or me, or any other person who has expressed an interest. They don't actually know that we exist, so, when they are really desperate they go to good old EFDSS. And guess what Folknacious? Despite them taking your money each year, they do't express your viewpoint either. You haven't got a voice. Why? Because you don't exercise your basic right to have a voice!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

Paul D: actually, I voted already. On line. After carefully reading all the stuff I was sent. Basic right therefore well exercised.

Schweik: get a sense of humour, old son. Do we really have to put rows of smileys or exclamation marks to let every dimwit know that a remark is tongue in cheek?

Sheffield: sounds like you've got a great scene. Why do you need any more validation?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I thought it was Haltwhistle in the Lake District...

Just to point out that Haltwhistle isn't in the Lake District, but is, in fact in Northumberland. Along with Allendale it does claim to be the centre of Great Britain, and is also (reportedly, circa 1983) the Devil worshipping capital of the UK and has also very Signifiant Folk Associations.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:21 PM

Sorry Folknacious. that wasn't what I meant at all. God knows loads of people exercise their right to vote and still get governance by ideology instead of by humanity. I'm talking about actually going and speaking… there isn't anything on the voting form which allows me to express my anger at Cecil Sharp House being re-badged as London's Folk Centre for example so I'll have to go and tell the perpetrators in person. That kind of voice.
Read the voting form again, 'council recommends that you support this motion' … really?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:32 PM

Why would you get angry at CSH being called London's Folk Centre, among the many other roles it fulfills nationally? I don't go into London that much, but I can't think of another single establishment in the city which contains and promotes so much English folk music, song, dance and customs. Rather CSH than some singer songwriter venue any day. If you had a place like that in Sheffield, would you complain about it being called Sheffield's Folk Centre? Sorry, I don't follow your logic - seems like knee-jerk London hating to me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:48 PM

Isn't it supposed to be the national folk centre?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:49 PM

If I had a National centre for anything in any city I would object to its being made into a parochial centre. I don't pay my membership to support the Camden locals having their own clubhouse! I would feel the same regardless of its location.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:51 PM

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:32 PM

Why would you get angry at CSH being called London's Folk Centre, among the many other roles it fulfills nationally? I don't go into London that much, but I can't think of another single establishment in the city which contains and promotes so much English folk music, song, dance and customs. Rather CSH than some singer songwriter venue any day. If you had a place like that in Sheffield, would you complain about it being called Sheffield's Folk Centre? Sorry, I don't follow your logic - seems like knee-jerk London hating to me.
it doesnt fulfill it nationally, it is absolutely disgraceful that the only organisation that gives national tuition is comhaltas.
I have a sense of humour alright, but watching EFDSS self destruct and make stupid decisions, is not what i call funny.
I repeat only EFDSS could be daft enough to organise an agm without involving local folk musicans to provide music.
who are these berks.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:10 PM

"I can't think of another single establishment in the city which contains and promotes so much English folk music, song, dance and customs."


Google King's Place.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:53 PM

I think you are deliberately missing the point. CSH can be London's Folk Centre and a National centre at the same time. Why on earth not? What's the evidence that it's only used by Camden residents? And even if they were the majority users, surely it would be their ticket money subsidising the organisation's national role rather than the other way round?

I don't live in London so I haven't been to King's Place, but from its web site it appears to be a fairly pretentious glossy "arts" venue for the wealthy, judging by ticket prices. I couldn't see that it has a library housing nationally important folk song collections, for example, or the range of classes and workshops that CSH holds. Presumably your idea of what constitutes a folk centre is different to mine.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 09:16 PM

Sheffield: sounds like you've got a great scene. Why do you need any more validation?

I speak for no-one apart from myself, but I guess the answer would be - "we would like to share our top class scene in Sheffield with the members of the EFDSS".

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,folkandroots
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 09:24 PM

Not being a member of the EFDSS I wouldn't really want to get involved in this conversation but as someone who does go to both the Kings Place Arts Centre and CSH Ruth's comparison of the two is way off the mark, I would say however that Folkn's assessment of the former is largely true (but from its web site it appears to be a fairly pretentious glossy "arts" venue for the wealthy - unfortunately Id say is also the case of most arts centres).

I'd also suspect that relatively few residents of Camden actually make regular use of CSH as it happens and no doubt any actual members of the EFDSS here could correct me but the resources located within are used by far more than just the local residents be that of Camden or Greater London.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 10:58 PM

Glad we have established where Haltwhistle is - and the River South Tyne runs through the town so one must suppose it may be deemed to be on Tyneside!

This is getting really almost interesting now - keep it up folks.

I would respectfully suggest that EFDSS is a far safer pair of hands for traditional folk music that some of the other oligarchies that have claimed to represent the genre in recent years.

The Society has been getting it wrong for an awful long time now but at least it is still doing a fair bit of good work - or is it?

Debate and discuss.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 03:51 AM

"it is still doing a fair bit of good work - or is it? Debate and discuss."

We debated this very point quite recently. In a nutshell, there is a feeling that the good work it is doing is largely confined to CSH and its immediate environs. If the Society is indeed doing more in the regions it is doing a poor job of publicising it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:26 AM

You could always ask EFDSS which is making more of a contribution to the society's financial viability,concert ticket sales or membership subscriptions. I can tell you it is membership.

My comparison with King's Place was not altogether fatuous. My point is that it is a fit-for-purpose venue with great facilities, and it is committed to promoting and presenting a range of folk musicians who are on tour as well as special events. One could argue that Cecil Sharp House is not particularly fit for purpose as a venue for presenting concerts, and maybe suggest that an organisation like EFDSS should not simply be replicating what lots of other venues in London already do, but instead focus a bit more on its national remit (as defined by the Arts Council as a condition of its grant) of being the national folk arts development organisation for the UK. Where is it's national education strategy, for example? How is it being delivered? I'm much more interested in that than in subsidising another London concert venue. I already do that through my taxes.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:28 AM

The public transport issue is pretty serious if you're coming from north of Sheffield. I was keen to go to the Malcolm Douglas memorial ceilidh band event last year, and gave up when I realized how long it was going to take (the railway line was closed for repairs that weekend and I'd have had to do the whole trip on buses). From anywhere in Scotland, London is far more accessible. For that matter, I can get to Istanbul quicker than Sheffield.

Given that this is going to be an overnighter for most people outside London, it certainly makes sense to organize some sort of social/musical event to tie in with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM

the River South Tyne runs through the town

Again, here I fear Haltwhistle is being misrepresented somewhat as the town lies entirely to the north of the river - likewise both the A69 and the railway line from which many assume (wrongly as it happens) that its name derives. A Google Maps search will verify this claim, and also that of the town as being The Centre of Britain.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:33 AM

"The Society has been getting it wrong for an awful long time now but at least it is still doing a fair bit of good work - or is it?"

Who knows?

From where I'm sitting typing this, on the edge of the Peak District south of Manchester the EFDSS is utterly irrelevant. We have a good local session scene and some excellent musicians, and many here are out there doing what the EFDSS is there to encourage and represent.

I love the idea of an archive the like of which exists in CSH, and which is of national importance. However, in real terms the continuation of the tradition is happening on the ground out in the provinces, the cities, towns, shires and hundreds and the existence of a society in London which is expensive to visit for those of us outside the M25 doesn't really matter in real terms.

Is there a branch in Manchester?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Raymond Greenoaken
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:53 PM

As a native of Haltwhistle, I can confirm that everything Suibhne says about the town is absolutely correct. I'd be interested to know what the Significant Folk Associations might be, however.

As for Haltwhistle's claim to be the Centre of Britain, well, I was not consulted in this. But if you believe the astonishing set of statistics amassed in support of this claim and published on a sign in Haltwhistle Market Place, you'll probably also believe that the exact dimensions of the heavenly bodies are encoded in The Book Of Revelations.

In fact, the EXACT centre of Britain is a miscroscopic black hole located three quarters of a mile SSW of Haltwhistle Market Place, which often sucks in backpackers and passing woodland creatures. I myself have been sucked in several times. (The trick of getting out again is something one inevitably learns as part of a Haltwhistle Boyhood.)

Another of the town's claims on posterity: my great uncle Arthur Thompson was, in his later years, known as the Fattest Man in the North of England. Were he alive today, he's be one of the few people visible on Google Earth.

I could go on...

By the by, I now live in Sheffield, so I'm obviously attracted to the centres of things.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM

Local branches tended to be dance clubs that didn't appeal to a wide audience so people started up their own clubs and local organizations.

I value the Libray and Journal and ED&S mag. Barry Callaghan's book and CDs and Bismark's CD were very helpful as were Malcolm' edition(s).


Where is the Bert Lloyd book I paid up front for ages ago?!

---

Guest is mikesamwild, who forgot to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:55 PM

"For that matter, I can get to Istanbul quicker than Sheffield."
by train?who is this berk,
the average train journey from edinburgh to derby is four and a quarter hours generally without a change,the average train journey from edinburgh to london takes 4 hours forty five minutes.
edinburgh to sheffield takes 3 hours 40 minutes, 3 hours 15 minutes, or 3 hours 43 minutes at 10 08 am without a change.
jack you just dont know what you are talking about

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:03 PM

Outward
        Edinburgh to
Sheffield
Thu, 4 November 2010
Depart
Arrive
Duration
Changes         11:08
14:51
03:43
0
Details         12:00
15:20
03:20
1
Details         12:05
15:51
03:46
0
Details         12:30

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:04 PM

Outward                  Inward
        Edinburgh to
London Kings Cross
Tue, 2 November 2010                  London Kings Cross to
Edinburgh
Thu, 4 November 2010
Depart
Arrive
Duration
Changes         14:08
19:12
05:04
1
Details         15:00
19:19
04:19
0
Details         15:07
20:19
05:12
1
Details         16:00
20:44
04:44
0
Details

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 08:28 PM

When I wanted to go there was no train. Engineering works near Newcastle. The best option was bus all the way. No thanks when I was recovering from an angioplasty. I've no idea how often that sort of disruption happens but the north of England is not noted for reliable train service.

The point is: when people are coming from a long way, you'd better make it worth their while. And just sitting in a meeting isn't enough of an attraction for most.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:45 PM

Just this once I agrre with Campin' Jack.

Dick Dearie - you're getting awfully fraught - are you having trouble with your tooth?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

Transport in the UK anywhere on a Sunday is fraught with difficulties, whether by road or rail.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:57 AM

and is the AGM on a sunday? no its bloddy not, its on a saturday at 2 pm
look ive provided details of train services its quicker to get to sheffield from edinburgh than it is to get to london.
i am not fraught , but i get fed up with people like jack making incorrect statements , his claims are not true, go and check out rail time tables you will see i am right.
malcolm whats all this dearie crap ,you are not having a change of sex are you?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:50 AM

In my experience the AGMs of any organisation are more to be endured than enjoyed; I can rarely hear the speakers clearly, nor understand the technicalities behind the resolutions. It ought to be an opportunity for the Society to do some PR activity, but I can't even find a mention of the meeting on the EFDSS website. Will there be any books or CDs on display or for sale?

So, to return to Mike's original question, is there anything else going on, officially or unofficially, to make the trip to Sheffield worthwhile? If I were to come, and on the whole I'd rather be in Dublin but can't get away for the whole weekend, is there any singing or music going on anywhere nearby on the Saturday evening?

Matthew

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:04 PM

Dick Dearie - It was you calling me Sunshine - just thought as you were being nice I would be nice back!

How is the tooth by the way?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:17 PM

malcolm , if you can be bothered to read , i apologised for that.
my teeth are fine, which is clearly not the case with your brain.
you have your facts wrong about travelling times to sheffield by train.   
if you have ambitions to get a high position in the EFDSS, getting a clear grip of facts is essential.
there are clearly people in the higher echelons of the EFDSS WHO COULD NOT ORGANISE A PISS UP IN A BREWERY.
Malcolm, I witnessed your organisation of Whitby festival, and while I have some criticisms of you, [your a mediocre cricketer] and you seem to enjoy pretending to be the archtypical Yorkshireman
" Hear all, see all, say nowt, tak' all, keep all, gie nowt, and if tha ever does owt for nowt do it for thysen"
however,you did manage to organise Whitby festival for many years in a very competent fashion, I think you would do a better job in the EFDSS than the present management ... but dont make their mistake of living in a fantasy world.

Thomas Gradgrind is a utilitarian who is the founder of the educational system in Coketown. "Eminently practical" is Gradgrind's recurring description throughout the novel, and practicality is something he zealously aspires to. He represents the stringency of Fact, statistics and other materialistic pursuits.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folknacious
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:27 PM

????? Lost me there . . .

Slow Tradgrind is an anagram of Rod Stradling. Not many people know that.

If the EFDSS are living in a fantasy world, I rather like it. I was up in London last weekend so I was able to go to the House for a very excellent evening with Shirley Collins, Alasdair Roberts, the Belles Of London City and Trembling Bells, the first three of which I enjoyed a lot so I was well pleased. It appeared to be sold out. I noticed it got a very good review in the Guardian a few days later, which can only do good on a national level (unless you believe that all Guardian readers live in Camden as well). Surely on that evidence a sane person would have to admit that they must be doing something right.

A. Berk

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:13 PM

Oh Dear(est) Dickie

Where are you getting all these fantasies about things like my wanting to join the higher echelons of the society?
I am retired and loving every minute of it - you should try it sometime. But I am not short of interesting things to do and see thank you - and yes I'm very well at the moment.
I have never professed to be anything other than an average but enthusiastic and determined cricketer but I still managed to have my moments and never lacked for a game, so again I know not where that particular bile on your part originates - perhaps its just part of your make-up.
My train times were gleaned from the National Rail Journey Planner which I use quite extensively, but then I suppose by your lights they will not have a clue either - oh dear, dear.
Any old how must close now as we have an early start in the morning, off to Clare for the weekend plus other things Irish.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM

Malcolm, I remember well how I was treated by Graham Binless your predecessor, who was a gentleman and a decent bloke, and treated his artists with respect .
In fairness to yourself you ran Whitby in a well organised fashion.
I gave details of train times, wherever you gleaned your facts they dont correspond with the train times provided by train companies, check out your facts again.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM

Malcolm, I clearly remember playing cricket against you[ i am not a good cricketer, either] at whitby festival, and when you caught and bowled me, you, shouting, fuck off you bloody wanker.
cricket is supposed to be a game not an excuse to be have like an ill mannered yob.
That is the sort of behaviour , i dont expect to receive from anyone or particularly someone organising a festival.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:30 AM

However boring AGMs may be, they are a breath of fresh air compared with threads about train timetables, fer Chrissake...

Personally I would rather my subs were spent on the library, educational projects, outreach work etc rather than subsidised jollies for delegates. As folks have pointed out, there is already plenty going on in Sheffield for delegates to get their teeth into. I live in Manchester so I don't personally benefit from Cecil Sharp House. I pay my subs to help support the work the society does, rather than for what it gives me - though I do appreciate the magazines.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM

Agree with thge mighty spleen

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:10 PM

I pay my subs for the insurance cover.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:11 PM

Hi Matt! Of course, thanks to you I now have that bloody Manfred Mann's Earth Band song buzzing round my head and I can't get rid of it... All together now:

Come on without, Come on within...

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:48 PM

Anyway Sheffield has just had The Boardwalk ( ex Mucky Duck, ex Black Swan)named the 4th most Iconic Music Venue in the World! And Henderson's Relish has beaten Marmite to First Place in the the Vegetarian Society Best Store Cupboard Item category -- and the old Highcliffe is reopening as a music pub 'The Greystones' - opening neet toneet.

---

Guest is mikesamwild, who forgot to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:49 PM

That Guest is mikesamwild , why have I been so downgraded?

---

You need a cookie reset, Mike. E-mail if you need help. -Joe Offer- [e-mail]

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:13 AM

Joybringer!


Personally, I am most interested in the library and digitising it and it becoming avalibale on the net would be fantastic - that and educational work like Sam Lee was doing

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

Agree!
And I am back in my own name , apparently you have to clock in occasionally!

Looks like Bright Phoebus have the Greystones franchise for folk.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 06:58 AM

Well, only 30 members there. Some of us asked why no event?. The response was that the committee thought the staff were doing something and vice versa. So nowt!Cock up or conspiracy?

Next year in London (or Marienbad?) and guaranteed events at Cecil Sharp House.

Some probing questions from the floor about why things are Metrocentric. We tried!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:16 AM

How about selling CSH and having a purpose built centre in a town convenient for public transport?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:25 AM

yes, les, I agree, but every time i mention it I am accused of having an obsession with EFDSS.
it is not beyond the powers of be that run efdss, to have deliberately done this, so that they can argue, that it failed when it was held in sheffield therefore it has to be held in London.
I am not saying it is so, but saying its a possibilty.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:21 AM

Now here's a thing. I went to the Riley Technical High School in Hull. So did my Uncle and so did my brother in law. But you know what? We actually attended three different sites in three different parts of the city at three different times. The important thing was the name and the memory of the said Mr Riley. It was not about a piece of land or a pile of bricks. It was all about academic tradition. The school was rebuilt and relocated several times. I need hardly point out that Cecil Sharp Hse is clearly more important to a certain faction of the society than the memory of Cecil Sharp himself. The insistence on clinging onto a building which by the looks of the balance sheets is actually unfit for most purposes except as a place to hire out to other interests is creating a liability which affects everyone with an interest in English folk song and dance. This year the house is only valued at just shy of 1.5 million quid. Recession aside, it has been losing value at an alarming rate over the last 10 years! It seems that soon it won't have enough value to qualify as an asset.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:53 AM

Good points Paul.

Wolverhapton is good for trains as is, you might not be surprised that I mention it, Manchester.

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM

Let me get this right - the national body for folk music failed to organise an event which might have showcased the Society and persuaded sceptical northerners that it might actually have something to offer, not because it was unwilling but because it was incapable of doing so?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM

It seems like it Howard.
Derby along wirth several other midland towns and cities has good rail access and road access.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM

I don't think I am a moaning old grump, but others may differ, but .............. I have been a member for a long time and I don't feel it has ever done much for me. The Library is brilliant but that could be anwhere.

I feel it's a bit like a worthy charity rather than an organisation that might help promote folk music across the country. Has it withdrawn into a redoubt offering events for people in London and not much else?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:13 PM

I've stayed a member to support the work but not a venue for Londoners. It's another case of poor old pensioners paying for the arts for toffs in't South!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM

Yer, Mike, lets smash some windows then?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM

Mike

I don't have a problem with events happening at C#H as long as they are self sustaining. Given the attendances I've clocked, this is probably the case. I'd be more concerned if my subs were being used to prop up the place as a venue.

I'm happy for my subs to prop up the library, given its importance. I'd be even happier if there was evidence of some publishing (web or paper) going on other than that already funded.

I still think that the society has yet to properly establish a regional strategy and the Sheffield AGM wasn't a way forward on that front. Having said that, I travelled to see Inge Thomson at the Boardwalk in Sheffield a couple of weeks ago (she's wife/partner of Martin Green of Lau and a very interesting Fair Isle accordion player and contemporary song writer).

Two of the supporting acts were sponsored by the EFDSS. Make of that what you will.

As far as the library being anywhere Les, anywhere is going to be inaccessible for someone and it's been debated ad nauseam. It's more important to get the stuff on line and there have been some good moves in that direction, partly through some excellent voluntary work and partly through funding.

I know we're all impatient for the society to really do what it says on the tin, so to speak, but it's early day with regard to the Arts Council funding and although I have some serious reservations about recent strategy indications, I think it still needs time to prove it's worth.

And there's nobody else in the frame as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:53 PM

"I know we're all impatient for the society to really do what it says on the tin, so to speak."
its a bit like waiting for a no 53 bus, you must remember the old joke Jesus is coming but he is still waiting for a no 53 bus

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:54 PM

100, sorry leadfingers

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

I don't remember the joke Dick but I take your point.

A No. 53 came along recently with some money aboard but we'll need to see what effect it has and if it comes around again. The Roadmaster might shrink to a minibus.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:22 AM

Good points Jon.

Is it the case that since the 'Second Revival' that started in the 60's, what ever 'Folk' is simply out grew the EFDSS?

Even today hundreds more of events happen weekly around the country and dozens and dozens of festivals are organised without any connection with the EFDSS.

I have just been re-reading 'The Imagined Village' and the role of the EFDSS before WW2. It makes me think that the only serious Revival was ours of the 1960's and beyond.

Some of the Folk Clubs, Folk Groups, singers and musicians of that revival were amazing and some were pretty dire but for quite a while if you lived in a large town or City you could walk or get a bus to a Folk Club and in some places many nights of the week!

Some Revival hey?

L in C#
Still a member

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM

Out of curiosity, how does a performer get to be sponsored by EFDSS?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM

One of the 'sponsored' artists spoke at the AGM and expressed disquiet that the society had taken a step into so called 'artist development'. Their take on this was that they would 'sponsor' already established acts at such events. The artist concerned called into question whether a) this was part of the society's remit and b) whether the society actually understood the term 'grass roots' which was part of the rationale offered by the Chief Officer.
The short answer to Howard's question seems to be - get established and then the society will take the 'risk'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: brezhnev
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:20 AM

Presumably the EFDSS' current activity is geared almost exclusively to meeting the targets it committed itself to in exchange for the £400,000 it received from the Arts Council.

I presume too that EFDSS members have access to those targets (if not, why not?), but they're not available to the general public. Who knows? Their performance indicators may include the sponsorship of x number of artists over two years, or the holding of x number of AGMs outside of London, or the generation of x amount of income from gigs in Camden, or achieving x number of downloads by schools of songs from the (sadly stalled) Fun with Folk website.

Whatever. Most of those activities aren't unique to the EFDSS. And it's only public money.

The only truly unique asset the EFDSS has is its archive. Does anybody know how much of the £400,000 gets devoted to it? Is it their plan to press on with the work using volunteers? Have they sought the help of American universities/libraries with digitisation and hosting? And are the important bits already online going to remain forever stuck behind the JSTOR academic paywall?

I don't expect any answers. Just wanted to get it off my chest.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,addison
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

Looking at ED&S Winter 2009, there's a whole section on what the Arts Council grant is for. Page 26. perhaps someone at EFDSS could post the information here.
addison

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM

So, has the EFDSS kept all those songs and tunes hostage or is it the other way round?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM

Let me state at the outset I am a member of the Society and I thought the AGM in Sheffield could have been done better. I think the society is currently metro-centric. I have a number of worries about the society's direction as well but we must not blindly wave sticks about and hope they hit a target.

I am not sure for example what this means: And are the important bits already online going to remain forever stuck behind the JSTOR academic paywall? To what precisely are you referring?

As far as I am aware there is no paywall of any sort to access material on-line - should anyone wish as a non-member wish to avail themselves of the library it is £3.50 a shot. Remarkably inexpensive I would have thought. But all the material on-line is available free of charge. And so is the library to members of the EFDSS.

As for seeking the help of American Universities (the link goes to a page called Open Folklore) what precisely do you want them to do? Send people across to digitize material? I suspect they might just balk at that.

My experience of the RVWML is that the librarian knows more about what is happening in the folk world than most and that he is an excellent librarian with top-class knowledge. Most people's experience of him is the same. So what do you want the Americans to do?

What that link seems to show to me is that well-funded institutions to do with folklore can produce excellent materials on line.

Well looking at the Take Six project and the Sharp Diaries so can RVWML as well. You might care to note that the RVWML is hoping to get its whole library catalogue on-line eventually, starting with the Leslie Shephard collection. It says so on the website.

Digitising material like this is an enormous and an enormously expensive task and of course people involved have to spend a lot of time fund-raising rather than doing their "proper" job. Anyone who has applied for funding knows it only comes for specific projects. So first decide your project and then apply to the correct place and for a justifiable amount. Not the easiest of tasks. But it is simple given unlimited amounts of money.

Compare the Irish equivalent of the RWVML, the Irish Traditional Music Archive.

I suspect the EFDSS would like the £4,000,000 state contribution to the setting up and the €750,000 per year funding the ITMA gets. They started the process of putting their catalogue on line in 2008, and are doing a great job, but they have two full-time digitisation staff!! Plus a lot of others!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM

And to Les's question about songs and tunes in hostage, frankly they aren't! Either way.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:25 PM

Lots of good points Dave and well put. I guess I am having a longwinded stab at the fact that thousands of songs and tunes were collected and until the real revival of the 1960's onwards most rarely sa the light of day and since then it has been singers and musicians who went to CSH and the Library

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:53 PM

Dave Eyre wrote:


As far as I am aware there is no paywall of any sort to access material on-line - should anyone wish as a non-member wish to avail themselves of the library it is �3.50 a shot. Remarkably inexpensive I would have thought. But all the material on-line is available free of charge. And so is the library to members of the EFDSS.

Dave, the journal is being handled by J-STOR, an academic portal for journal articles which is 'free' to academics from subscribing institutions and expensive for those of us outside the academic world.



I was on the national council when the decision to go via J-STOR was made. It wasn't something I was keen on as I am aware that most of the research work done in the folk field is by people outside the academic framework, but there was understandably the opinion that, given the small nature of income from memberships, giving several decades of the journal away for free was not a viable option when it could be providing an income stream.

There are many at the society that share my wish to provide a great free online resource but don't always know how to fund it. As it is, the society has spent public money providing public resources and where no funding has been available, it has sought an income stream which seems fair enough to me.

Reading up this thread, I'm still amazed at the depth of expectations of some people who want the society to provide lots of resources, services and lobbying and lord knows what else, but can't be bothered to stump up a subscription to support the work. There is no reason why the interests of tens of thousands of folk enthusiasts HAVE to be supported by 4,000 members of a charitable society. We who ARE members of the society are happy when the wider aims are met but it's not a given. Also, we who ARE members feel justified in criticising the society when it doesn't meet OUR expectations as card carrying members. Those outside the membership are already potentially getting more than than they are paying for, even via taxes, so they shouldn't be complaining - should they?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:09 PM

"Reading up this thread, I'm still amazed at the depth of expectations of some people who want the society to provide lots of resources, services and lobbying and lord knows what else, but can't be bothered to stump up a subscription to support the work. There is no reason why the interests of tens of thousands of folk enthusiasts HAVE to be supported by 4,000 members of a charitable society. We who ARE members of the society are happy when the wider aims are met but it's not a given. Also, we who ARE members feel justified in criticising the society when it doesn't meet OUR expectations as card carrying members. Those outside the membership are already potentially getting more than than they are paying for, even via taxes, so they shouldn't be complaining - should they?"
yes, they should be complaining, the EFDSS is supposed to be a national folk dance and song organisation, not just a london organisation.there is only one organisation that provides tuition on a national basis, and that is not EFDSS but Comhaltas.
what happens if comhaltas is forced to reduce its tuition[quite a possibility as ireland is bankrupt]we could be left with no organisation providing national tuition, for years Comhaltas have been doing what the EFDSS should be doing.
your argument is really stupid its like saying, those people who are not members of the conservative/liberal party should not be complaining about the state of the country or the coalition government.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

The coalition government have control over life and death issues.

The efdss do not. Folk is a hobby for the majority of participants.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

so its a hobby, so the EFDSS   dont have to bother with tuition on a national basis, cos its only a hobby., its only a hobby so people who are not members , have no right to complain,its only a hobby, sp professional musicians, have no right to be treated with respect[waawaaa what do you do during the day]its only a hobby
John, what a load of codswallop.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: brezhnev
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

Dave,
the online EFDSS materials behind the JSTOR paywall are: Folk Music Journal (1965-2004); Journal of the EFDSS (1932-64);Journal of the English Folk Dance Society (1927-31); The English Folk Dance Society's Journal (1914-15)and Journal of the Folk Song Society (1899-1931).

What could American institutions do for the EFDSS? Well, they might have the resources and the desire to cherry pick and publish EFDSS stuff for open access online, like the (American) Country Dance and Song Society have just done with the Charles Bolton collection.

And yes, of course, credit where it's due: the EFDSS has done really well to get the 'Take 6' and Cecil Sharp diaries online, but what's the plan/timescale with the rest once the catalogue has eventually been published?

If American institutions have been asked and have said no, then so be it. But have they?

£3.50 for access to the library is fine - as long as you live in London. Add on £100 train fares and the price of a room for the night and it's impossible.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:13 PM

Dick,

Get a sense of proportion will you?

Coalition - hospitals, jobs, defence, security, etc. ie. the things import to the survival of every person in the realm and supported by the compulsory taxation of every person in the realm.

EFDSS has a library and venue and 4,000 or so members who expect their subs to be spent in a sensible way which meets their collective aims.

In what way is it disrespecting professional musicians? It owes no debt to anyone who chooses to earn their living as a professional performer, including me when I was full time. It is a charity trying to further cultural aims for its members in whatever ways it can afford to do it. As a member I ask it to conserve, publish, educate, promote and disseminate folk culture without going bankrupt. Not a difficult concept surely?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:16 PM

John, the particular hue of a government misses my point, people in England are free to criticise a government or political party they do not have to be a member of the party for it to be appropriate or inappropriate to criticise, its called freedom of speech.
I do not have to be a member of the EFDSS, for it to be permissible for me to make a criticism.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:25 PM

brezhnev wrote:

And yes, of course, credit where it's due: the EFDSS has done really well to get the 'Take 6' and Cecil Sharp diaries online, but what's the plan/timescale with the rest once the catalogue has eventually been published?

The library catalogue project has been a joint effort between existing library staff and a few volunteers. That's where the real praise should be directed. Being out of the loop these days I would have to guess that further digitisation on the scale of Take 6 will depend on further funding. In my experience, EFDSS is always asking but the answer isn't always 'yes'.

The Arts Council Funding came with its hat and coat already on in terms of what it could be spent on, and if I remember correctly from the magazine quoted above, digitising wasn't on the list. Is it likely to be a priority when the Arts Council look round to see what they will fund with their sadly depleted allocation of funds? Answers on a post card please to.....   maybe not.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

Dick,

This is my last reaction to your crazy ramblings.

The coalition government is answerable to the people who, as members of the electorate of the uk, put them, willingly or unwillingly, in power. Those same people can vote them out.

The EFDSS is answerable to the people who, by virtue of having bought into the society, have elected, by design or default, a bunch of trustees. Those same people can vote them out.

You can complain as often as you like and as loudly as you can - but you ain't got a vote and you ain't got no influence. All you're doing is making noise, and a rather annoying one at that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:47 PM

For what it's worth I agree with Jon and a bit with Dick. Taking a long term view of the EFDSS it seems likely to survive but how much it has contributed, library excepted, to our post 1960's Revival is ................ erm not much?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,dunelm
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:56 PM

addison said the information about what the arts council grant was for was in ED&S. Can non-members read it please? Our taxes are paying for the grant.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:30 PM

"This is my last reaction to your crazy ramblings."
my ramblings crazy?
listen, you may not like it, but on this forum freedom of speech is allowed, you are not in a position to dictate who may or may not criticise the EFDSS,if the EFDSS organise an AGM without any music it is perfectly reasonable for non members as well as members to criticise that if they should so wish.
you may be a member of the EFDSS but that does not give you the right to call non members who are critical of certain EFDSS decisions crazy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:43 AM

He didn't call you crazy, he said your rambling were crazy. That's criticism isn't it? The contents of your postings are as open to criticism as are EFDSS' policies. John has no more influence on what you are able to post than you have over EFDSS but he is still able to pass comment on your comments. And so it goes round..

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:09 AM

And the painted ponies go up and down - all without much help from the EFDSS

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:19 AM

my comments are not crazy, i will repeat my comments, one doesnt have t be a member of the EFDSS to be allowed to criticise the organisation, neither does one have to be a member of a political party to be alLowed to criticise that particular party.
by calling my comments crazy there is an implication that i am crazy.
the people that are crazy are those people in the EFDSS who put on an annual general meeting and dont involve any musicians to provide music.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:09 AM

Dunelm said: the information about what the arts council grant was for was in ED&S. Can non-members read it please? Our taxes are paying for the grant.

But as far as I am aware, your taxes are not paying for EDS. However, like other magazines, copies are available to anyone willing to pay the cover price of £3.00: EDS Winter 2010

I also think it's sad that so much energy is being put into criticising the EFDSS - particularly from non-members - and particularly when few realistic, acheivable and affordable alternatives are being offered. (The exception being Brezhnev's excellent suggestion about approaching American institutions). I don't think the EFDSS is perfect, but it's the only organisation of it's sort we have. The good stuff it does is more important than the stuff it can't or won't do or where the bloody HQ is located. And please: no more bus or train information. We can look that up if we need it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:47 AM

If non-members are sufficiently interested in the EFDSS to criticise it, shouldn't they be taken seriously? Perhaps if their comments were addressed they might feel inclined to become members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:39 AM

I have tried most things, so to speak, since about 1964 - gone to folk clubs, sung, played tunes, formed groups, ran folk clubs, morrised, mummed, busked and so on - like many others - and I'm not sure the EFDSS helped at any point.

Currently I go out of our front door, walk to The Beech each Wednesday, sing songs and play tunes with likeminded friends and then come home. Maybe that's all that we really need?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM

there was a point to mentioning train time tables, it was to correct a wrong post from jack campin, who tried to claim it was quicker to go by train from edinburgh to london than it was to go from edinburgh to sheffield, the train timetables illustrated that this statement was incorrect.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:15 AM

I guess a strong case might be made that if all those folkies who do things and enjoy the music etc. actually joined the EFDSS we might have an organisation big enough and rich enough to be considerably more effective?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:44 AM

The Libary and its service is great. Furtehr digitisation is necessary.
EFDSS must work more in 'the provinces.
It will have to attract new , young members or fizzle.
Gav Davenport at the AGM made an important point that 'folk' needs to be rooted in a fertile, non professional soil.

Where and what do people see as great 'grassroots' development?

Carols start tomorrow! Now that is grassroots and traditional song and music and very healthy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 11:48 AM

I have always believed that lots of people enjoy 'folk' music if it is presented in an appropriate manner. The continued success of festivals, quality medium sized concerts and well run Folk Clubs and Sessions bares this out.

A folk club every week is very difficult to sustain but it is often the model that organisers and grpoups go for.

I guess more imaginative and flexible arrangements are needed. Beginners tunes sessions are a good example - I think

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 12:16 PM

I did attend the AGM, although since I'd already cast my votes online I felt rather foolish; like Frank Maguire, the MP for Fermanagh & South Tyrone, who once travelled all the way to Westminster to "abstain in person".

It was very disturbing to learn that owing to "crossed wires" in communication the Society had not planned any events to accompany the AGM. It was just as distressing to discover a complete absence of publicity material to celebrate what are actually the genuine achievements of the Society. This was a missed opportunity for the Society to demonstrate to members what it is doing on our behalf - even some tea and biscuits and a chance to mingle would have been nice.

I thought Paul, Gavin and Mike amongst others all spoke up very eloquently for the members out in the provinces; but it seems that the Society paying more attention to the Arts Council in London than to its membership.

Matthew

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: tritoneman
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

Les in Chorlton wrote: Currently I go out of our front door, walk to The Beech each Wednesday, sing songs and play tunes with likeminded friends and then come home.


For me, therein lies much of the heart and soul of folk music....

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:56 PM

Thanks Mr tritonman,

I really enjoyed The Midaway in Stockport and Lymm and Sale FC, Shrewsbury and Whitby Festivals and various Watersons, Paxton, Rusby, Da Dannan, Seeger and so on at The Lowry.

But 'folk' does work best in small rooms. Unfortunately few pubs have them.

And back to the other point - beyond the RVW Library what can we expect the EFDSS to do?

Cheers
L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM

According to the EFDSS website, its mission statement is to:

    * maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
    * provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
    * celebrate diversity and promote equality

I'm not sure I sense any clear direction of how it intends to achieve these. So far as the first point is concerned, it appears to me that the centres of excellence are elsewhere, run by other organisations. As for the second, there is little evidence of this extending much beyond north London.

EFDSS appears to be focussing on being taken seriously by the arts establishment, and no doubt projects such as the collaboration between morris and contemporary dancers help to obtain funding. I'm not sure they're very relevant to folk at the grass roots level.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 11:47 AM

EFDSS appears to be focussing on being taken seriously by the arts establishment, and no doubt projects such as the collaboration between morris and contemporary dancers help to obtain funding. I'm not sure they're very relevant to folk at the grass roots level.'

I don't get the ill informed notion that; we give them what they understand and then they'll like what we want them to like. You can use folk music and dance as a stimulus for any art form you care to mention. 'Return of the Native' contains reference to a mummers play but it's still a novel, 'La Fille Mal Gardee' contains a clog dance but it's still a ballet. 'English Rhapsody' by Delius contains 'Brigg Fair' as its main theme but it isn't folk and as for the score to 'Titanic' by James Horner it is bursting with folk song themes in numbers. But it's still a film score! What I don't get is why the only example of the society's work offered was a piece of contemporary dance? (As an ex- teacher of A level Dance for ten years I can also remark that it wasn't very good contemporary dance either)
Experience tells me that if you teach people folk dance they get interested in folk dance. If you give a guy an electric guitar he isn't suddenly going to turn into a Dave Swarbrick.
The society needs to recognise that it no longer has the teachers nationally. Other organisations do. It needs to recognise that it doesn't understand the term 'grass roots'. It needs to take on board that it isn't doing a great job of fulfilling its mission statement because, as demonstrated at the AGM, it is currently unwilling to talk to the experts, movers and shakers in the provinces.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:08 PM

there is an attempt by some members of the society, to ridicule any comments I make.
for the record I have been a musician, singing and promoting English traditional song,for 40 years, I have also had considerable experience in folk dance, having played in many ceilidh bands,played for solo dancers, and even played in EFDSS style bands.
It makes me despair when the EFDSS cant be bothered to organise music for its AGM.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

In my copy of the review of the year 2009-2010, it shows The Society has £400,000 over three years from October 2009 to March 2011 from Arts Council England (ACE) That is a great step forward and the Society is to be congratulated.


The award was made under the Labour Government and I've been assured by a Board member that there won't be new criteria to meet, just inevitable 10% cuts like all public sector awards.

That money wouldn't go far if thinly spread but I hope the Board get the message from some of us provincials and grassrooters and stimulate te traditioanl folk arts where they really lie - with the thousands of amateur enthusiasts.

Gav Davenport , at the AGM, wisely said that as an aspiring semi professional he felt uncomfortable with an emphasis on promoting paid performers

Other agencies or local promoters may be better at that and EFDSS should be one hub for such enterpreneurial activity.

Regional activity of EFDSS isn't too strong so that needs all the helpers it can get to maximise efforts.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM

"Regional activity of EFDSS isn't too strong so that needs all the helpers it can get to maximise efforts."
well when EFDSS had local branches the activity was stronger even if mainly on the dance side.
it would have cost very little to have organised a ceilidh and song spots using local members, the ICA [Concertinas]and other concertina groups have done this on a number of occasions successfully.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 11:37 AM

When the Society had almost 10000 members (early 1980s) the entertainment at the AGM was only available to members and if (ritual) dance teams were invited to perform they all had to be members too.

Most teams got round this problem by becoming affilliated clubs but even that was frowned upon by some of the diehards on the NEC. Fortunately they (the diehards) were in the minority.

This information is merely that and needs no response thank you.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

It might not need a reply but it speaks volumes .......

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 07:54 AM

There are about 4000 members now, that speaks volumes Malcolm!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:31 AM

I am just one of 6000 dissatisfied ex members

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:47 AM

I am probably getting a bit carried away here but:

"the entertainment at the AGM was only available to members and if (ritual) dance teams were invited to perform they all had to be members too."

It feels like what ever 'The Tradition' is it has been taken into custody and will not be allowed out to mix with anybody except members of the prison service.

I feel sure this is no longer the case, don't I?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Gozz
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:58 AM

I like the analogy Les and I suspect it still very much applies. They have a great big library full of our heritage and how do we get to claim it?

The local organisations (if that is the right word for them) seem to do nothing other that pat each other on the back and award each other something every now and again. Meanwhile the local real folk just get on with their music and treat it as an irrelevance. That is certainly how it is in my area. As you can tell, I am one of the 6000 as well.

Gozz

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:36 PM

Many of the local organisations are very active and make a significant contribution to folk music in their local communities. Others less so - it varies from region to region. However the point is that these are independent organisations run by enthusiasts, often with limited funding. They are not part of the EFDSS.

Arguably these organisations are doing what the EFDSS should be doing in the regions. On the other hand, since they are mostly doing a good job, perhaps the EFDSS is right not to try to compete. However I do believe the EFDSS could do more to support these and other grass-roots organisations, not only financially but also with advice and guidance.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Gozz
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

I stand corrected. Thanks for the explanation.

I still wonder what is going on here in the South West where self appointed groups of people seem to ignore what is happening in the grass roots of folk music (and dance - unless you dance their way). I take your point though, that active EFDSS involvement in local organisations should be happening, but it may be better that it does not in many cases.

Gozz

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:01 PM

. However the point is that these are independent organisations run by enthusiasts, often with limited funding. They are not part of the EFDSS.
that sounds like Comhaltas, the only organisation who provides a fairly comprehensive instrument tuition throughout most of england scotland and wales.
what happens if Comhaltas have to reduce their tuition, the EFDSS[ as custodians of the tradition] have a responsibilty to try and fill the gap, EVEN IF IF IT IS IN A VERY LIMITED WAY.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

They have a great big library full of our heritage and how do we get to claim it?

You could try walking into the RVWML and asking to use whatever you want. That is what most people do.

However what would you like to happen to it?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:28 PM

GUEST, Firstly you should have a name otherwise you might be deflated or deleted.
secondly its a long walk from Manchester to SHARP HOUSE.
Thirdly your LAST question is not relevant.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM

Well the library has to be situated somewhere. Wherever it is situated will be a long walk from somewhere. This is from the website:

How to access the library

Access to VWML is free to members of the EFDSS who may also borrow some of the materials (UK only). If you can't make it to the library, we also welcome phone, email and postal enquiries. We ask non-members to pay a small fee (£3.50) for library access, whether in person or via enquiry

Its counterpart in Ireland, the Irish Traditional Music Archive is entirely free but does not handle email inquiries.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Gozz - PM
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:58 AM said:

They have a great big library full of our heritage and how do we get to claim it?

It seems legitimate to ask Gozz what he or she would like to happen to the library (our heritage) that isn't happening now.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 05:55 PM

Referring to the comments regarding the library's accessibility via phone, email or personal enquiry, as a member I had occasion to ring up on one occasion in a quest to track down versions of a certain song gleaned from the Surrey/Sussex borders. After a useful conversation, I received a by return set of photocopies of the various manuscripts containing the suggested versions of the song that I had been discussing. I've also had similar very prompt attention to email enquiries, and have to admit that I've found the assistance given by the staff in these circumstances to be superlative. Although I live 30 miles from London the cost of train fares, and the location of the House make trips up there for this sort of purpose cost prohibitive. However the attention to my requirements meant that, for the cost of the photocopies, I was able to obtain the information I needed, and to save myself the travel costs. So claiming the information contained therein is pretty damned straightforward and simple (and the additional cost to a non-member is far less than the cost of travelling there!).

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Gozz
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:04 PM

Firstly, I do not think that the library should make a charge to anyone. Every other library I have used is free (at the moment). Dick makes a good point about getting there - equally as bad from the South West of England and very expensive.

I do think that the on-line library needs to be improved, so that we can access what we need from anywhere. At the moment I still end up giving up and trying other sites when I am looking for something. I don't have a complete solution to the problem, but if an issue is not recognised no one will do anything about it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:40 PM

The question is, Gozz, who should pay for it?

It's not state funded but it's very well run. For example, it provides a cheaper service (as described by Irene) than the British Library which IS state funded and charges an absolute fortune for photocopies.

Should it be us 4000 members subsidising your free library access?

The online access is as good as the lottery funding has allowed it to be. Perhaps we members should be stumping up a bit more of our hard earned cash to make sure you have better access?

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

............and while I'm on the subject, there are some hard working EFDSS members who are not sitting at their computers pontificating about what other people should be doing for their benefit, but sitting at their computers getting on with really useful volunteer work making library content universally accessible.

My colleagues Lewis Jones and Flos Headford have been transcribing loads of the Take 6 Project content into useable alternative formats - all by the sweat of their brow, unpaid - and the fruits of their labours all freely available.

A good starting point to check it out would be this page on Folkopedia


While the EFDSS has many faults (and I have my own issues about some of the gaps in their thinking and strategy) the work that is done by staff and volunteers is valuable and contributes greatly to the health of the folk arts.

You folks might consider supporting it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:18 AM

Fair points Jon,

I never doubt that the people in organisations like the EFDSS work hard and do a good job.

I think the discussion is around the general point and purpose of the EFDSS. Perhaps it has shaken off its history long ago and the second revival simply became something much bigger and more effective in terms of 'doing folk'?

Les

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:41 AM

The staff service provided as described by Surreysinger sounds very impressive and for anyone interested in research or study exceedingly useful. I wasn't aware of this service before.
Even living as close to London as I do, personally I really couldn't care less about the EFDSS putting on shows either in London or elsewhere as that's something any bunch of informed amateur enthusiasts can do (and do do) for themselves if they feel like it. But the archive is an invaluable piece of cultural heritage. If the EFDSS solely focused their efforts on curating and increasing public access via internet, it would seem to me to be providing a far more essential service than any amount of either professional or indeed grass-roots 'activities,' which to be honest I'd see as unnecessary considering the amount of other people-based stuff already going on in various regions. Indeed if the EFDSS were to narrow their remit and focus their efforts on online archiving, I'd be more inclined to join the organisation. I suspect however that my priorities might not match those of much of the rest of the folk world, including current membership.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 05:14 AM

"I do not think that the library should make a charge to anyone. Every other library I have used is free"

Free beer would be nice, too. Just try getting access to, say, Manchester University Library, if you think all other libraries are free.

Last week I emailed the Vaughan Williams Library about a paper published in the Folk Music Journal some time ago. A PDF copy arrived at my terminal within the hour. Earlier in the year I asked them for a song in Cecil Sharp's manuscript. A scan arrived the same day.

Sabine Baring-Gould's collection will shortly be available online, thanks to a collaboration between Wren Music (whose members have worked enormously hard on it) and EFDSS. Take 6, of course, is a priceless resource, and one day I'm sure Sharp's material will be added. But these things aren't achieved in an afternoon's work - they cost time and money. I find it staggering that, the year after the launch of a superb resource like Take 6 (available to everyone, not just members), and with more in the pipeline, we are hearing lofty demands from non-members that "the online library needs to be improved".

The lack of music at the Sheffield AGM seems to have been a spectacular own-goal and I have questions about other aspects of strategy as well, nonetheless I intend to remain one of the 4000.

Incidentally, I performed a couple of songs at the AGM in the 1980s and found myself on 'The World This Weekend' - EFDSS was big news in those days!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 05:48 AM

Spot on cs.

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: johnadams
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:26 AM

Les in Chorlton wrote:

I think the discussion is around the general point and purpose of the EFDSS. Perhaps it has shaken off its history long ago and the second revival simply became something much bigger and more effective in terms of 'doing folk'?

Les, the EFDSS will never shake off it's history while Mudcat is around.

As far as the revival is concerned, folk never really went away and hopefully never will. It doesn't need the EFDSS in order to survive and if the society ceased operations tonight, people would continue doing what they do. The society brings a resource and a richness to what we do by constantly caring for bits of our heritage we didn't know we had and consequently might have lost.

I'm not too far away from the opinion of GUEST.cs who suggests that the EFDSS should concentrate on being a custodian of the archive but having spent 10 years of my life trying to turn the society round I'm aware that this is not a financially viable option in the short term.

I agree that the society should get its act together with regard to education but I'm willing to wait a little while at least and see what the new education director puts in place with the newly available funding.

With regard to the regions, this is a thorny problem which plagued the society for all the decade I was involved in its governance. As current chair of Ryburn 3 Step in West Yorkshire I'm aware that we have no need of support from the EFDSS (unless they want to send us some cash) and don't need their guidance. Indeed, members of R3S have acted as consultants to the society on various matters because we have expertise that they can use. It would be useful, however, to have someone like EFDSS help with networking and communication, in much the same way as the AFO tries to support festival organisers. It's something I was hoping for from the now defunct Folk Arts England. Now that EFDSS have taken over the FAE funding I await developments on this front.

While on the subject of regions, I'm a little mystified by Gozz's comment above -

I still wonder what is going on here in the South West where self appointed groups of people seem to ignore what is happening in the grass roots of folk music (and dance - unless you dance their way) .

Do these self appointed people belong to a regional organisation? Is it an old style efdss group? What powers do these self appointed people give themselves? I'm interested to know what you mean.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:46 AM

Thanks Jon,

you clearly have much expereience within and beyond EFDSS which enables you to see a bigger picture than I certainly can. As ever this forum is not the one to explore something like two Revivals, a hundred + years of history and all the baggage that goes with it.

I am currently re-reading 'The Imagined Village' and my EFDSS membership card arrived today. I really don't know what the EFDSS should be doing to be most effective - maybe I wont?

Best wishes
L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 08:00 AM

Of course libraries aren't free
Public libraries are funded by the tax payer through local authorities for instance

Archive availability on the internet and educational work and the PR events (e.g events on the South Bank)is what I want the EFDSS to be doing
As a member I am thriled at how good the staff are

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 08:19 AM

Isn't this:

"PR events (e.g events on the South Bank)"

part of the problem? When EFDSS cannot get a bit of music organised for it's own AGM in Shefield what is the point of events on the South Bank?

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM

The staff service provided as described by Surreysinger sounds very impressive and for anyone interested in research or study exceedingly useful. I wasn't aware of this service before.

But it is clearly described on the website!! if you want to read for pleasure - as a member of the society there are books you can take out.

And as for libraries being free - here in Sheffield the library service has been struggling under constant financial restraint. I would guess more closures will come along now.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 09:41 AM

The Folk Song Society, The English Dance Society and the EFDSS were at the heart of the so-called First Revival. But it didn't really work - if it's purpose was to get lots of people singing folk songs and dancing folk dances - although the latter may have been more succesful.

The EFDSS was around before and at the start of the Second, but I shall argue, only Revival. Our Revival of the 1960's onwards generated thousands of folk clubs, festivals, dances, bands, singers, musicians and enthusiasts - some certainly more fun than others. We now have a living tradition of songs, dances and customs as that Revival continues.

The EFDSS has a role in that but what it has been and may continue to be is hard to know!

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 09:57 AM

@ Les
they should be organising and engageing musicians at the AGM - I think they should be doing that. They are not incapable of organising that Les as you well know. They have chosen not to do it - why I have no idea - its an idiotic decision I think

Re: having musicans perform at the AGM: I am not saying anything else - and I think they ought to be doing PR show case type of events as well
They are not mutually exclusive

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 10:11 AM

As a long time but inactive member I thought the recent magazine a good mix of articles and adverts about festivals. I think the listing of festival dates one of the most useful services and the insurance for the band.

We went to the Gipsey orchestra last year. An excellent performance and venuue for it.

However, even though we live in North kent it is not that easy to get to. It suffers from the high costs of being in London but not that central.   

I think it is a shame that not every folk/ dance club think membership worthwhile. I'm nor sure what it is doing to make sure that morris dancing is part of the opening olympics?

We will also continue to be one of the 4000.

FloraG.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 10:39 AM

IMHO, as they say, the magazine is slight and the articles short. It's not a shame about lack of affiliation it's probably good judgement. Morris in the Olympics wrong setting for a little old bit of folklore

An I still in? Probably but not at all sure why

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:00 PM

Me: The staff service provided as described by Surreysinger sounds very impressive and for anyone interested in research or study exceedingly useful. I wasn't aware of this service before.

Folkiedave: But it is clearly described on the website!!

This is what they say on their website, somewhere in the middle of a paragraph:

"we also welcome phone, email and postal enquiries."

Well, that's nice, but it doesn't exactly give much detail to the casually curious, as to the extent of the service. Most places are willing to receive 'enquiries'. Comapare that to what Brain Peters had to say:

"Last week I emailed the Vaughan Williams Library about a paper published in the Folk Music Journal some time ago. A PDF copy arrived at my terminal within the hour. Earlier in the year I asked them for a song in Cecil Sharp's manuscript. A scan arrived the same day."

Or Surreysinger:

"I had occasion to ring up on one occasion in a quest to track down versions of a certain song gleaned from the Surrey/Sussex borders. After a useful conversation, I received a by return set of photocopies of the various manuscripts containing the suggested versions of the song that I had been discussing. I've also had similar very prompt attention to email enquiries, and have to admit that I've found the assistance given by the staff in these circumstances to be superlative."

To be fair, considering how good the service is, that spare half a sentence on "welcoming enquiries" afforded this service on the website, could be expanded in a bit more detail - or even given it's own whole paragraph with bold heading!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

Going slightly off topic for a minute, the article about the history behind the ballad "Mill O'Tifty's Annie" in the hot-off-the-press latest edition of the Folk Music Journal is really fascinating stuff and I'd urge people to give it a read.

I'm very pleased that my subscription includes a copy of this publication. My view is that FMJ and other publications, the library/archives, an ongoing digitisation programme and some outreach/education work - especially linking songs, dances and folklore to regional/local history - should be core to the organisation's work. I understand that organising gigs and renting out rooms in C#H is another revenue stream, but as Les and others have said, its not like there's such a lack of grassroots activity, festivals, clubs, singarounds, sessions etc that EFDSS needs to step in and put things right - even if it could. And the experience of Ryedale 3 Step, Yorkshire Garland and similar groups show that local/regional initiatives can happen anyway, if there are committed and inspired individuals willing and able to organise them - no-one needs to wait for EFDSS to start organising regional groups for this sort of thing to happen.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

quote From: mattkeen < and I think they ought to be doing PR show case type of events as well >

Something like Celtic Connections, but entirely English would be good.

Chas

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:17 PM

Good cool summing Mr C

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

The EFDSS gave up doing festivals a long time ago. They are unlikely to revive an interest.

Celtic Connections is not wholly Celtic by the way!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 07:12 AM

John A. Re Folk Arts England. I think that initiative undermined local initiatives and I believe that Ryburn 3Step et al deserve all the financial support they can get.
When we set up South Riding Folk Network we did get affiliation and a few hundred from EFDSS through the good offices of Brenda Godrich, but volunteer burnout etc meant that the work wasn't sustained as much as it could have been despite some great work.

I note from the latest 'Board matters' from EFDSS that ACE funding is reduced by 6.9% The next round of funding (2012/13) requires fresh bids by end of jan 2011.


As it always makes sense to match the funders criteria, maybe 'The Big Society' woud make our depressed regions a deserving case, traditional and folk arts are important grassroots cultural forms in forging and maintaining local and regional identity.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM

"The EFDSS gave up doing festivals a long time ago".
more is the pity, the problem is theyve given up so many things, including having the sense to provide music at their sheffield agm.
which wanker was responsible for that stupid decision, it would   have cost very little to involve local EFDSS musicians to provide a ceilidh and song spots.
I cant say i am surprised

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Well grumped Soldier!

L in C#

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 08:42 AM

Soldier -The Chief Exec blamed lack of communication between the Board and the paid staff, but there had been serious offers from good people. chance missed!

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: GUEST,Felicity Greenland
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:29 AM

If I were to be able to attend the AGM I would really enjoy choosing my evening's activity from the wide range of folk events going on in the Sheffield area.

Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
From: RTim
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:42 PM

At risk of re-opening old (and very sore) wounds!
I have just renewed my EFDSS membership for next year.

That is £39 per annum, or at current rates $60.86 - less than a pound per week
and in the USA (where I live) less than the cost of a Sunday Boston Globe per week.

I think it well spend, and I don't want to discuss what it costs me to visit Cecil Sharp House.

Tim Radford