BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin

Subject: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:05 AM

An interesting story on the BBC today. Research has placed alcohol the most dangerous substance based on the overall dangers to the individual and society as a whole.

The work was led by Professor David Nutt, the former government drugs adviser who was sacked for criticising the then Labour government's decision to upgrade cannabis from class C to class B.

His team analysed how addictive a drug is and how it harms the human body as well as other factors like environmental and socio-economic costs, such as health care, social services, and prison.

They found heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine, or crystal meth, to be the most lethal to individuals.

When considering their wider social effects, alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine were the most dangerous. But overall, alcohol outranked all other substances, followed by heroin and crack cocaine. Marijuana, ecstasy and LSD scored far lower.

Marking substances from zero to 100 based on their criteria, alcohol scored 72 overall, compared to 55 for heroin and 54 for crack.

The study was produced by Prof Nutt's Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs (ISCD), and published in medical journal The Lancet.

Its authors said: "Our findings lend support to previous work in the UK and the Netherlands, confirming that the present drug classification systems have little relation to the evidence of harm.

"They also accord with the conclusions of previous expert reports that aggressively targeting alcohol harms is a valid and necessary public health strategy."

Other members of the ISCD include Prof Leslie King, who stepped down as a government adviser after Prof Nutt was sacked from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs last year.

He was forced out after saying ecstasy and LSD were less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes and criticising the decision to reclassify cannabis.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Sooz
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:22 AM

I wonder how much it cost to find this out. Those of us working in largely underfunded drugs education could have told them the same if asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: C-flat
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:25 AM

I'm no expert by any means but I'm always sceptical about the way information like this is presented.
Concerning the wider social costs, it would seem logical that alchohol would top the charts due to it's wider and prolonged use.
Drugs like heroin may certainly be a problem but it's still contained within a small percentage of society.
If the public as a whole were shooting up on crack-cocaine 2 or 3 times, 2 or 3 times a week (typical drinking patterns), I should think alchohol wouldn't seem like such a terrible thing.
I seriously doubt we needed to spend money on this "research" in the first place.
Do we really need someone to tell us that using alchohol can be bad for us, and that drinking heavily can be worse than taking other types of drugs?

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:36 AM

I would have put cigarettes at the top because of it's addictivness, arguably more addictive than heroin when you think of how it has been made available over the years at every newsagent or supermarket counter every day and how difficult it is to kick the habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:36 AM

Well, it took 'them' long enough!

How much longer is it going to take them though, to admit that we have a whole generation, possibly two now, who are already well on their way to becoming alcoholics?

They already know it's bankrupting the NHS, who are left to deal with the literal 'fall out' of boozed-up, often highly aggressive folks every night of the week...

'Buy One Get One Free And Get On the Road To Alcoholism EVEN Faster'

'The Happy Hour' has turned into 'The Unhappy Hours & Hours' for many...and those in power have stood by and watch it happen, in smug denial, whilst The Corporate Alcohol Bastards have made a fortune from the Livers of the Lost and Lonely...

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 04:59 AM

"I would have put cigarettes at the top because of it's addictiveness" Patsy, very few people come home after smoking twenty cigarettes and wreck a home and beat their partner up.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: bankley
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:00 AM

"Night falls, no curtain calls, these walls have all worn thin
Sleep crawls like alcohol through a membrane of skin....
You can't beat a heart for trying to sustain such injury
Nor fault a fool for the miniscule at the edge of eternity "

from 'Full Circle'

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:40 AM

The whole point is that it highlights the dangers and damage caused by alcohol.

And quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:58 AM

I wouldn't disagree with the view that alcohol is a very dangerous substance, but what concerns me is that this bald statement that's been given out in the media could be very misleading to young, impressionable people - young people who perceive alcohol as 'fun' and comparatively harmless, and who may take it as a signal that smack and crack, having been 'officially' declared 'less harmful' than alcohol, are 'OK' to use.

I think there's a danger that 'ranking' harmful substances like this, in a very public way, may be counterproductive and, far from telling young people that 'this' is less harmful than 'that', the message that should be rammed home forcefully is that these substances are all VERY harmful.

Seems to me that there's a great deal of qualification needed, and much education, otherwise even more harm could result from this statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:02 AM

Alcohol CAN be dangerous.

But you really gotta try to poison yourself with it. Its addictive powers are considerably less and take longer to hook you.
And traditional beers (or ciders) are less likely to cause addiction in themselves. Wines and spirits and the new fangled tradition of strong beers and ciders is a worrying trend.
And being legal is more controlled, therefore less adulterated.

Anyone ever got anthrax from beer?

Like all these statistics - yes "more than" IS a statistic - it is meaningless without the measurement conditions and context. But that doesn't stop barrack room lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:04 AM

Good point Lox, this does highlight the problem. Many people (either self or innocent 3rd party) have been killed by drunks & how many have been killed by heroin? I think you'll find alcohol wins hands down. Alcohol is a major cause of domestic violence. It costs the NHS billions a year treating alcohol related admissions. Hangovers contribute to many sick days a year. Drugs may effect peoples minds, but so does alcohol. You do hear of a very small % of younger people that have had mental issues with for example cannabis, but you hear of a higher % of younger people have mental/physical issues with alcohol. People seem to think because alcohol is legal, it is safe, whereas because heroin is illegal, people think it is bad.

I have alcohol ruin lives within my own family. The most dangerous examples I witness are the young people on weekend nights fighting and wrecking property. Rape statics show young women are more likely to be attacked or abused while under the influence of alcohol.

I neither drink nor smoke and never took drugs in my life. I saw enough of what alcohol can do to a family, my own family.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:10 AM

Not to mention drink drining.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:35 AM

As several 'Experts' were quoted as saying - "If Tobacco and Alcohol were 'disovered' today they would BOTH be legally controlled !

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 09:39 AM

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug around. But it is recognised that trying to ban it just makes things worse - and also that alongside the bad things there are a lot of good things. So we have rules for regulating its use, and maybe they need adjusting from time to time.

And the most obvious conclusion is that this is the right way to deal with "recreational drug use" across the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

I heard of a cocktail from UK for the terminally ill that mixed heroin and Gin.

Never tried heroin but I knew lots of folks who sniffed or mainlined it. It never looked like fun to me.

As for alcohol its like trading feeling fine for a headache and an upset stomach. Always seemed like a crappy deal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:54 AM

But it is recognised that trying to ban it just makes things worse -

Yup. Just as banning drugs just makes the situation worse. Prohibition is an obscenely costly failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:06 PM

Should we legalize H and ban alcohol?

That would make the Taliban very happy.

I wonder why the people that live to 130 calim they have a little nip every day?

How long do people that have a needle every day live?

I wonder why my Doc said a small glass of red wine every day was beneficial?

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:21 PM

It's ambivalent, Sawzaw ~~ red wine is good for the heart but hell for the liver, I believe. I prefer to save the money myself.

I agree re prohibition being a costly failure ~~ it was what led to the breakdown of law in USA in 1920s, & present drug laws merely lead to much of the same sort of gangsterism from Colombia to Soho. But there seems oddly a ray of hope in the way that legislation against public-places smoking has been, not just accepted, but successful ~~ it is my impression that tobacco-smoking has become widely perceived as unsmart and a bit pathetic. Even the self-justifying tone of the protesting smokers {all those silly articles in The Spectator for instance} sounds a bit desperate. Perhaps some indication of a way to go re alcohol, drugs, &c?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:23 PM

"I wonder why my Doc said a small glass of red wine every day was beneficial? "

Well regarding the red wine theory, too much is bad for you and possibly abstinence is bad for you, whereas moderation's good for you.

People with high blood pressure, enlarged hearts, liver disease or anyone with a family history of alcohol abuse shouldn't be downing this daily dose.

I think it is like taking an aspirin daily, there are two schools of thought on both it and red wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:30 PM

Gosh, if it's that addictive can I get it on prescription?

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM

The Taliban were down on all drugs, except maybe coffee. They were for export only, if that. And production and export have of course gone through the roof over the past decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

...and guns and motor vehicles are a couple of the 'most dangerous' mechanical inventions of mankind.....especially when used carelessly by fools.

Alcohol in moderation does very little harm, and is slightly beneficial in some forms.

Because alcohol is so easy to make in many ways, we will NEVER be able to ban it, so we need to finds better ways to educate people and better ways to show them HOW to moderate.

I simply do not comprehend those who open a container intending to get drunk...or knowing that they probably will. I have had them explain it to me, but I find it difficult to identify with.
If I had my way, compulsive drinkers who 'may' become a regular danger to themselves & others would be subject to as many 'controls' as reasonably practical. It would not solve the problem, just as taking away driver's licenses or gun permits would not 'solve' those problems, but it would be easier than trying to recreate some form of prohibition.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:31 PM

"People with high blood pressure," That's why she advised it.

Could it be that a large portion of the population drinks A and a very small portion takes H skewed the conclusions?

I smell something bad.

On 25 December 2004 (his 110th birthday), Maurice was promoted by president Jacques Chirac to the rank of officer in the Légion d'honneur.

In May 2006, Maurice became France's oldest verified man on record, when he surpassed Algerian-born Émile Fourcade (1884-1995), who lived to age 111 years and 153 days.

By all accounts, Maurice enjoyed watching sports on TV and, being a little vain, didn't like to wear his eyeglasses. He was allowed one full glass of red wine every day and champagne on special occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 01:41 PM

Antonio Todde, 112 years 346 days
Antonio was born in the village of Tiana, in the Nuoro province of Sardinia, where it is known for its high centenarian density. He was the 3rd of 12 children. His father lived to 90, and his mother died from the poison of a rotten cheese at 99. One of his sister lived to 100. He had 4 daughters and a son. Antonio is also a World War I veteran, being wounded in the battle of Mount Grappa.

Antonio loved to eat pasta and soup. He had some pork or lamb everyday plus a glass and a half of home-made red wine.

Red red wine you make me feel so fine
You keep me rocking all of the time
Red red wine you make me feel so grand
I feel a million dollars when your just in my hand
Red red wine you make me feel so sad
Any time I see you go it make me feel bad
Red red wine you make me feel so fine
Monkey pack him rizla pon the sweet dep line
Red red wine you give me whole heap of zing
Whole heap of zing mek me do me own thing
Red red wine you really know how fi love
Your kind of loving like a blessing from above
Red red wine I love you right from the start
Right from the start with all of my heart

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:21 PM

The interesting thing is that almost anything can be dangerous if misused or overused. A single glass of wine with a meal a couple of times a week will do no harm at all to a person. But if he binges on alcohol on a regular basis, it will wreck his life.

A gun that is properly taken care of, responsibly handled, and used for nothing but target shooting on a firing range will harm no one. The same gun can be used to rob a bank or commit murder.

A knife used to cut vegetables harms no one, but a knife can also be used to stab your partner to death.

Cigarettes have a bad effect on most (if not all) smokers' health, so they might be the one item that has almost no redeeming features (other than personal pleasure), but if people smoke only a few of them, and outdoors, it probably won't do them or anyone else much harm.

The primary reason most illegal drugs ARE illegal is not so much that they are harmful...but that they have not received the sanction of mainstream social custom!!! Alcohol has long had the sanction of mainstream social custom, and cigarettes did too until quite recently. Caffiene drinks full of sugar are presently accepted everywhere, although they are harmful.

What I'm saying is that the anti-drug laws are largely arbitrary. They are based more on the prevailing social customs and on maintaining corporate profits than on genuinely protecting people from harmful substance abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

And clearly you have to be careful with the cheese.

Safety does not live in bans, it lies in being sensible.

As the old saying goes "If you can't be good, be careful".

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM

And above all, try to avoid using the same piece of toilet paper twice....

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

ALL things in Moderation - EXCEPT Moderation !

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: bubblyrat
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

Drinking too much water can be fatal. Too much carrot-juice can also be risky. Eating too many lampreys is not without risk.Having unprotected sex with a heroin addict can give you AIDS ; some alcoholics are not too fussy about choice & frequency of partners,come to that. Living in polluted cities like Athens or,indeed,London,can have an adverse effect on one's health, as can Cross Channel Swimming, which has been banned in France,and is about to be here in England.Ban everything, I say !
                   The main difference between Alcohol & Heroin is that the sales of the former bring in BILLIONS of pounds for the Government,whereas sales of Heroin benefit only the producers and the pushers ----THAT is the problem that the authorities should be concentrating on ( and dishing out Methadone to Heroin addicts,which just makes them worse ; all you get in Alcohol Dependency Units is Librium few a few days !!).

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM

sales of Heroin benefit only the producers and the pushers

There are also people who see their careers as tied up in, or aided by, a continuing "war on drugs". Including, most significantly, many politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: gnu
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM

Yes, McGrath... there are lots of politicians (and police) who make big money off their war on drugs. Drugs are vile but profiting on the war on drugs rather than addressing the drug problem in a logical manner is disgusting. In any case, ya can't fight money and the greed associated with it... on either side of the "war."

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:25 PM

The point about booze that separates it from most of the other stuff that it was compared with is that it is perfectly fine until taken to excess. Defining "to excess" is a right bugger, but I reckon it's higher than those mournful government guidelines suggest. Millions of people "drink too much" but only a few thousand get cirrhosis every year. Most people who booze don't drink to excess and don't get addicted. It is not automatically harmful. As most people drink (whereas most people don't take crack, heroin, ecstasy, etc.), of course you can produce doom-laden statistics that show thousands of people being harmed by it. But thirty-odd thousand people are harmed by cars every year in the UK, and God knows how many are harmed because they choose to eat shit, and lots of it, every day. Actually, lots of those who booze too much also eat shit every day and a good number of 'em smoke fags and take no exercise. Trying to separate out one lifestyle factor to show how harmful it is is a charlatan's game. Eat(good stuff, though), drink (easy, tiger) and be merry (but stay in control). I reckon.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:52 PM

""Actually, lots of those who booze too much also eat shit every day and a good number of 'em smoke fags and take no exercise. Trying to separate out one lifestyle factor to show how harmful it is is a charlatan's game. Eat(good stuff, though), drink (easy, tiger) and be merry (but stay in control). I reckon.""

Sensible comment at last.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: josepp
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

The other problem with alcohol is if you are a longtime heavy drinker, cold turkey withdrawal is likely to kill you. You can cold turkey heroin if you have the will power but I would not recommend trying that with an alcohol addiction.

Also, an alcoholic is someone who gets in trouble whenever he or she drinks. They are not necessarily heavy or longtime drinkers. That's a different affliction.

Subject: RE: BS: Alcohol is more dangerous than heroin
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 09:00 PM

An interesting take on the story:
Science Who Needs It? The Drug vs. Alcohol Debate Continues