BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:22 PM

"Invading a country because they "might" have weapons of mass destruction (they didn't) and because they "might" supposedly attack you some day (they were incapable of doing so) is ALSO a war crime, and a much bigger one than waterboarding. - Little Hawk

Iraq was not invaded because it "might" have had WMD - check up on that. That misrepresentation was what MSM told people, they are the ones who "lied" to you.

Doubt that then read UN Security Council Resolution 687, what Iraq agreed to do, and failed to do. Read the UN Security Council mandates for UNSCOM and for UNMOVIC.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 05:45 PM

The resolutions from the UN Security Council are not sacrosanct. Remember that at the time, they were also privy to deliberate misinformation or outright lies like that disgraceful display by Colin Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 07:06 PM

Jack, the US (like the UK) is a dualist system, not a monist one. Treaties (at an international level) bind the government, but do not make internal law without local legislation. For UK examples, see the European Communities Act and the Human Rights Act. For a US one see the Berne Convention Implementation Act.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 08:57 PM

I think the Geneva convention is the one that applies.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 12:06 AM

If you really bealieve that, JTS, how can you advance your case that GWB is a war criminal?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,FierceCravin'Bob
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:25 AM

For cryin out loud - give it a rest already. You don't know WTF is going on next door but you all know what's up in Washington DC and China and on and on... war criminal??? Puhleeeze

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

???

I know what is going on next door.


Water boarding prisoners is a war crime. Bush ordered it. Where is the confusion?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Beer
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 09:00 AM

Well I must jump in for a moment. I just finished watching the news and GWB was being interviewed about his book. When asked about water-boarding he said that it wasn't a crime because his lawyer said so. Now he is blaming the lawyers. What a weasel.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM

He doesn't mention that his lawyer said so because he and hid people chose lawyers who would say what they wanted to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 11:34 AM

Just to raise the question, what would the consequences be in Afghanistan if the US were to pack up and leave next month?

A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 02:07 PM

JtS,

Obama has been ordering the drone attacks- which are a war crime. Ready to call for HIS impeachment and conviction???


Are YOU ready to demand that Canada complies with the international laws requiring them to STOP mining and exporting asbestos? THEY are in violation, and the World Court can convict them by their own admission.


If not, you show a strong indication that you are a bigot and a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:40 PM

Obama a war criminal, Beardedbruce?

By golly, I guess you're right! He sure hasn't been shy about ordering Drone attacks, has he? Big difference, though, between ordering Drone attacks that kill a lot of people and waterboarding which doesn't kill anybody.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 10 - 04:43 PM

Liberals have a real problem with saving lives in London, you know. Can't inconvenience someone just to do that...


But I note NO call for Canada to comply with international law- THAT is predicted to cause 3 million premature deaths over the next 30 years, in the countries to which they export the asbestos- all to save 900 miner's jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

A. Are you saying it is a war crime to mine asbestos? Seems asinine.

B. I don't live in Canada.

C. If I were going to complain about their environmental record, the tar sands do a lot more damage.

D. If drone attack are a war crime then any form of aerial attack of a military target, not on a military base, is a war crime.

E. If you think is is a War Crime then ask your orange buddy to prosecute. Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 12:40 PM

FFS - waterboarding is torture. Which bit of that do you not understand?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM

Terrible things are done to beavers in Canada too, BB. Don't forget that! It's an international disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

and a terrible Beiber is inflicted on the US.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

True. Thank God Canada has remained relatively Bieber-free!

By the way, Stephen Harper appears to be reneging on his promise to withdraw Canadian troops from Aghanistan in 2011. Evidently, his American owners (keepers?) have prevailed upon him to reconsider....and like a good little trained dog, he is rolling over and playing dead for them.

He and Ignatieff are also talking about passing a law that would make any criticism of Israeli policy officially "anti-semitic"!

Thus even Jews who criticize Israeli government policy (and there are many who do) will be deemed anti-semites by the government of Canada if Harper and Ignatieff have their way! My, my. More like George Orwell's dark vision every day around here, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:25 PM

"A. Are you saying it is a war crime to mine asbestos? Seems asinine."

No , it is a crime against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

Still asinine

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

Another thing that Canada deserves criticism for, BB, is harbouring Shane McBride and a large number of other dissolute and irresponsbile young men who lie around, grow and sell weed, avoid work, and commit petty crimes. They also say "eh?" frequently. At least...the ones in Ontario do. And they drink, smoke, and swear!

This is a disgrace. You could call it a cultural crime against the entire world! I think Canada should be censured at the U.N. and made to pay reparations for this, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 02:03 PM

Some time ago I went to a performance by a group called Malinky who sang a piece they had written about the women of Bosnia. Abu Ghraib was in the news, and I thought it needed something, too. This is what came to me.

1. He lay in his bed sleeping easy,
Till the man came and stood at his side,
And fixed him with one grim and glaring eye,
And reached out, and howled out, and cried.

2. "And how did you get past the guards at the door?"
He asked, and he trembled with fear.
"And how did you get through those doors and those locks,
And what are you doing here?"

3. "Oh, you've made me free of your doors," the man cried,
"And you've made me free of what's locked.
And those you command cannot keep away
The men they have tortured and mocked."

4. And he looked at the man standing naked there,
Hands tied, and a bag on his head.
And rolled over and mumbled "I know who you are,
You weren't tortured, because you aren't dead."

5. "And I've had enough of your whinging there,
And I've had enough of your lies.
For I've had enough of attorney's advice-
It's not torture if nobody dies.

6. "And why do you stand with your arms outstretched
As if you were Christ on the tree?
You will learn when you die that my god is not mocked,
When the torments of hellfire you see."

7. "It is one of those torments of hell to stand
With my arms stretched out to the sky.
But the tormentors aren't demons at your command
But men made just like you and I.

8. There are men in that prison, and women too,
Whose souls have been twisted & bent
Whose souls have been misled by that fatal lie
It's not torture if torture's not meant.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

All militant empires practice torture of prisoners sooner or later...but they seldom tell their public about it. If they do tell their public about it, they say it was "justifed" for vital security reasons, and most of their public will usually go along with that. It doesn't seem to occur to the public that it might happen to them some day too...at the hands of their own government.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 05:55 PM

Direct Quote from an AP story written by Pete Yost, printed in today's newspapers:
"Re: "No charges in destruction of CIA interrogation videos."

"In January 2008, President George W. Bush's last attorney general, Michael Mukasey, appointed Assistant U.S. Attorney John Durham as a special prosecutor to investigage the videotape destruction (depicting waterboarding and other harsh interrogation). Later President Barack Obama's attorney General, Eric Holder, added to the inquiry the CONDUCT (my emphasis) of the 'harsh' questioning. A team of prosecutors and FBI agents led by Durham has conducted an exhaustive investigation in the matter, said Matthew Miller, chief Justice Department spokesman.

"As a result of that investigation, Mr. Durham has condluded tha he will not pursue criminal charges for the destruction of the interrogation videotapes," Miller said.

"Separately, the Justice Department advised the House and Senate judiciary committees that it had reviewed newly found emails sent by Bush administration lawyer John Yoo and stands by a conclusion that Yoo did not commit professional misconduct in authorizing CIA interrogators to use waterboarding AND (my emphasis)other harsh tactics."

President Bush relied on the legal advice he was provided by John Yoo to authorize waterboarding and other harsh methods.

End of story.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 06:01 PM

So torture is not torture if your lawyer says it was not torture?

Next time you are charged with a crime Doug, why not try the defence "My lawyer said it was not a crime" and see how far that gets?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:04 PM

Today The Justice department announced that their three year investigation into the theft and or destruction of CIA torture videos will be dropped. No one will be indicted, no one will be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:28 PM

As much as I think George W. Bush deserves to be prosecuted as a war criminal, the reality of the situation is that any attempt to do so would be met with too much public resistance. Wanna see a bunch of armed rednecks rioting in the streets? I didn't think so. Neither does President Obama.

Prosecute Bush? Forget about it.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

It's not the end of the story, Dougie...

Right now the historians are laying low fir fear of getting waterboarded (or worse) themselves but...

...history will get this one correct...

I wish that the Dems had gone after Bush and his boys afetr the 2008 election but they wanted to play safe and not go that route... Had they known that the Supreme Court was going to usurp democracy with it's activist "Citizens" ruling then I'm sure, if they had to do it over, they would have busted Bush and all the boys... Too late for now... Saved by the Supremes...

But, yeah... Upwards of a million people killed as a result of Bush's wars of choice... History will not be kind to this man...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:13 PM

Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.

I realize the Justice Department's ruling, announced today, will not silence those who still believe GWB should be tried as a war criminal. After all, there are still those who believe the world is flat, right Bobert?

Incidentially, although it is quite likely that the TV sets of Mudcatters who hate Bush are impossible to tune to Fox News, on Thursday night at 9:00 PM ET, Bill O'Reilly will interview GWB and I'm sure he will be asked about his decision to approve waterboarding. I tell you this because there would be no way to know the interview will take place because you do not watch the "fair and balanced" channel. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 10 - 09:25 PM

You're being extremely foolish to assert that the Democratic party structure in Washington would want to prosecute George Bush, Doug!

My God....how unlikely! I laugh with much amusement just imagining it. They don't care about George Bush any longer, they are continuing to prosecute the same wars Bush did, and they pursue essentially the same policy, because they work for the same oligarchy of special interests!

That oligarcy will never prosecute any American president for war crimes any more than the Nazis would have prosecuted Hitler for war crimes. They're all in it together up to their ears.

The Oligarchy plays you like a violin, Doug. They keep you obsessed with the phony old partisan divide, just like they keep your Democratic foes obsessed with it. You fight each other, waste your energy over the partisan nonsense, vote for 2 Oligarcy-owned sets of candidates, and the Oligarchy runs the show just like Tammany Hall once ran New York or like Daley ran Chicago.

Your elections are a joke, both parties are a sellout, and you don't have a real democracy at all. Your vote is a leaf that falls in a forest and no one hears it. It achieves nothing.

But you can't see how you're being played and how your Democratic foes are being played. You both continue to believe the old myths and spin your wheels uselessly cheering for "the home team" when the entire game is fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 12:27 AM

Evidence? In his book and in interview after interview he says that he authorised waterboarding. What more is to be said?

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:56 AM

Jaysus, Richard - don't confuse Douggie with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

And he waited until the Republicans held the house to admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:28 PM

""President Bush relied on the legal advice he was provided by John Yoo to authorize waterboarding and other harsh methods.""

Or to put it more accurately, President Bush relied on the money he was paying John Yoo to elicit the response President Bush wanted.


""Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.""

True! If they had the evidence which Bush either destroyed, or had somebody else destroy, they might well have prosecuted, but Bush made sure that the evidence vanished.


""I tell you this because there would be no way to know the interview will take place because you do not watch the "fair and balanced" channel.""

Faux News the "fair and balanced channel"?

I used to think you were just thick, but now I know you are stark raving looney.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

He did put "fair and balanced" in quotes.

We slant the news. You decide!

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

Anyone on this forum that suspects that the Obama Justice Department would NOT like to prosecute GWB as a war criminal must be living in a different world. If they had a shred of evidence he is guilty, they would prosecute.


Absolute horsepucky, Doug. Does it occur to you that to start such a prosecution in the midst of a depression with th enation more viciously divided than it has been since 1860 would ruin any chance of constructive progress? Does it occur to you that whether you believe it or not there may actually BE people anxious to make constructive progress in bettering things?

Give me one effin' break, sir.


A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:28 PM

Amos,

So, in your opinion those calling for Bush to be prosecuted are NOT "people anxious to make constructive progress in bettering things?"

Just wanted to understand what you are trying to say...

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

I think that Obama might think that. I think it would be fair to say that they have a different perspective than the Administration. But they are not charged with trying to clean up the Republican's mess.

I started this thread. I think it is more important that we recognize that he is a criminal, as the country did with Nixon, than to charge and try him.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

Go back to sleep, BeeBee, didn't mean to wake you.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM

Greg F.

YOU don't mean anything, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 04:34 PM

Well, I mean you're irrelevant, for one.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

You are both equally irrelevant...in the other's terms. ;-) Matter of fact, most of the people who post here are irrelevant in each other's terms, because hardly anyone comes here to actually listen to anyone else...just to hear themselves talk and get a charge out of that. We are all engaging in the glory of our complete irrelevance vis a vis one another's opinions, and does anyone care? Ha! Ha! It's just like the infantile political debating shows on American TV. Mutual incomprehension underlaid with mutual contempt and a dash of snide indifference on the side...makes for a tasty yet piquant dish that sticks to your ribs for a short time only. Soon you will be back to the dinner table or the idiot box for more.

And while it's all happening, the plutocrats and bankers continue to rule.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 05:35 PM

Bruce:

You're getting silly again, old friend. I meant that the reason Obama did not go after Bush's ass is it would have been counterproductive. Not that he couldn't have done it successfully. That much is obvious.


A

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:41 PM

Amos: You are a funny man.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:46 PM

Truthout remarks the following:


"In his memoir (which some wise people have already moved in bookstores to the CRIME section) George W. Bush admitted that he authorized that detainees be waterboarded, tortured, a crime under US and international law.

Bush's crime confession coincides with reports that no one will face criminal charges from the US Department of Justice for the destruction of 92 CIA videotapes which contained interrogations using waterboarding.

Where is the accountability for these crimes?

Also see: "Special Prosecutor Declines to File Criminal Charges Over Destruction of CIA Torture Tapes"

Bush and other criminals will be brought to justice if the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights (ECCHR) have their way.

CCR and ECCHR jointly intervened into a criminal investigation in Spain examining the role of former civilian and military officials from the Bush administration in the commission of international law violations, including torture. The investigation is ongoing and includes the crimes that Bush admitted he authorized.

CCR and ECCHR made it clear that they are committed to pursuing criminal accountability and Bush's confessions help. In a joint statement they said:

    "As Attorney General Eric Holder stated during his confirmation hearings, waterboarding is torture. Calling these acts what they are, torture, is not the result of differing legal 'opinion,' as Bush states; it is a matter of law. Harold Koh, the State Department Legal Adviser, confirmed this in Geneva last week, stating during the U.S. Universal Periodic Review that "the Obama administration defines waterboarding as torture as a matter of law" and it is not a 'policy choice.'

    "There are no circumstances or excuses - including 'national security' - under domestic and international law that allow for the use of torture. And there is an obligation to investigate and prosecute torture.

    "Bush's decision to authorize torture and other illegal acts against detainees held in U.S. custody led to the use of torture at Guant‡namo, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in secret prisons by U.S. forces, and contractors, certain allies and the national forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. His decision led to Abu Ghraib.

    Do you like this? Click here to get Truthout stories sent to your inbox every day - free.

    "Debates as to whether or not waterboarding of detainees led to intelligence or make the nation 'safer' are not relevant questions. The only valid question is: can we torture? The answer is no.

    "Without accountability it is impossible to ensure that such actions are never authorized by any future president or other U.S. official. No immunity protects Bush from prosecution for acts which violate federal and international law. The Pinochet precedent demonstrates that the law eventually catches up with former presidents - even those who flout their impunity.

    "Bush states that accountability 'would set a terrible precedent for our democracy.'

    "We answer that not doing so is failing our democracy - yet again. We therefore urge the Obama administration and the Department of Justice to act upon their recognition that waterboarding is torture as a matter of law, to investigate and prosecute acts of torture and other serious violations carried out by officials of the former administration, including George W. Bush.

    "But we will not wait any longer for the Obama administration to act - we will continue seeking justice and accountability under the principle of universal jurisdiction and as counsel in the ongoing investigation in Spain."

Sell those books, George W., you may need the money for legal fees yet!"

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM

Bush is in violation of International Law. I hesitate to think what would have happened to him at the Nuremberg Trials.

His book is a pack of lies.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:19 PM

Just a little historical comment here...

The USA committed massive war crimes against the indigenous population in the Phillipines following the defeat of Spain in the Spanish American War. At least 100,000 Filipinos were slaughtered for attempting to seek independence from US military rule.

No one in the USA was ever tried for those war crimes.

Winston Churchill ordered the slaughter of a great number of Middle Easterners in the area now called Iraq when they resisted the British colonial occupation. The British were there for the oil. Tribesmen were strafed and bombed by the RAF and massacred en masse.

Winston Churchill and the RAF were never tried for those war crimes.

The USA illegally bombed Cambodia during the Vietnam War, causing the destablization of that society and the eventual emergence of the Khymer Rouge who killed about 1/3 of the population of that country. The Khymer Rouge's main patrons were Red China and (for awhile) the CIA.

Nixon and the American military were never tried for those war crimes.

What on Earth makes anyone think Bush ever will be tried for waterboarding people, invading Iraq, lying about his reasons for doing so, etc???

Not a chance!

Look, people, the wealthy elite that runs the $ySStem does not get tried for war crimes. They OWN the courts and the mass media and Congress and the military and the police. They are not made accountable. And they never will be....unless some future alliance of nations successfully invades and conquers the USA in some future war which we cannot yet foresee or imagine.

Then maybe the American ruling elite will be put on trial. But short of that happening?   Never.

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 12:47 AM

"Truth Out", huh, Amos. Where did you dig up this obscure blog? It's not biased, right? Who says so? "Truth out"?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:26 AM

If GW is a war criminal, go arrest him, or stop bitching!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: GW Bush IS a war criminal!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:32 AM

100....................War crimes....At least!

GfS