BS: Any Archers out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Stu
Date: 10 May 11 - 03:59 AM

" As for someone from elsewhere saying they should change thier way of farming... oh, nevermind... "

Actually, I was in a car with several palaeontologists crossing the prairie last year and as we journeyed on this subject came up (they were all Americans little gnu, so don't worry about us filthy foreigners getting ideas above our lowly station - this idea was planted by your countrymen. After all, what the fuck do we know?). It actually came about as we were discussing the keeping of range cattle and mega carnivore predation and the time frame of the establishment of ranches on the northern great plains, and it's effect on the ecology of that area.

I won't go into details as you're obviously not interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 May 11 - 12:08 AM

The argument that bow-hunting is not as "clean-kill" as gun-hunting is totally bogus. Bow-hunting has a different ethos than gun-hunting. The two basic rules of bow-hunting are "Be patient and wait for the right shot," and "If you don't get a clean kill, you have to track the animal down and finish the job, even if it takes all day." That stands in stark contrast to the "ethos" of most gun-hunters which seems to be "Blast away at anything that moves," and "If you wound an animal, track it for thirty minutes then say, 'Screw it! It's just a deer. There'll be another one along tomorrow.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 11 - 05:58 PM

"The fact wolves can now be hunted in the US as of last week is a real step backward..."

Proper management will prevail. No whole sale wolf hunting will occur.

Proper management is the key in order to preserve a balance accepatble to humans. If it is not acceptable to humans, humans will eradicate the wolf and other large predators in their areas regardless of laws. As well they should. As for the ecosystem, when one is dead from predation directly or indirectly, one doesn't really give a care. As for someone from elsewhere saying they should change thier way of farming... oh, nevermind... youse all know what I mean... if the wolves are eatin yer sheep yer gonna shoot them. Plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Stu
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:23 AM

English Longbow for me, mine is made by Pip Bickerstaff although it's been around 7 or 8 years since I've shot it.

As for shooting mega carnivores like Brown Bears . . . it's great for upping your ego and is basically a form of waving your dick about and being a rough tough alpha male.

It isn't good for the ecosystem and scientists are very worried about this: Tetrapod Zoology has a discussion on this very subject. Take out the top predators and the whole ecosystem eventually tumbles. I don't expect hunters to understand this or take notice as it's human nature.

The fact wolves can now be hunted in the US as of last week is a real step backward in re-establishing functioning ecosystems while we can. Wolf re-introduction has worked wonders in Yellowstone (as I saw for myself last year) as they control elk numbers and have reduced the overgrazing of saplings meaning aspen and willow can re-establish itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:47 AM

When I was a child my boy cousin wanted to do the 'William Tell' test. Good sense prevailed and I declined.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:38 PM

Eliza... it all in the back. Strong arms help of course.

Yes Phot. Pretty damn good back then. Sold my stuff... lots of stuff... over a hundred shafts and all the equipment except for my release and forearm guard in case I ever borrow a bow. However, the arthritis probably won't allow that.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:04 AM

Eliza, if you type 'archery gb' into google, it will take you to the sports website. You can find your local club there, and loads of information.

Hey, I didn't know you shot compound Gnu!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:01 AM

I suggested he found an archery club, but he's quite shy and doesn't speak English very well. I think he really has got a natural talent. This year's Norfolk show is coming up, I'll ask the Archery man to give us the names of some clubs, as Ib is a bit more confident now. His people, the Senoufou, have all generally got the same shape, small, slim but with very strong arm-muscles. I'm sure his talent is inherent, like the Kenyans who run superbly well. His ancestors must have used the bow to survive on game in the rainforest. (My ancestors must have had fat bottoms and eaten lots of chocolate, 'cause that's what I have a natural talent for!)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:48 PM

Eliza... longbow... THAT is impressive! I was excellent with my compound but longbow? never having drawed? that is IMPRESSIVE!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 11 - 03:49 PM

Not since boy scouts....but I do still have all my fingers - V

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:32 PM

Yes, gnu. The man on the stall had different sizes for men, women and children. He handed Ib (my hubbie) a man-size bow (like Robin Hood's one) which looked difficult to pull. But I don't fancy the William Tell test Alan! What struck me was his stance and attitude, he sort of transformed before my eyes to a Hunter. I was ever so proud of him!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:58 PM

Indeed. Was it longbow Eliza?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:00 AM

Eliza, find your nearet archery club and enjoy! Sounds like your chap has a raw talent.

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:45 AM

well you could try the apple on the head test, just to make sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:29 AM

I took my husband to the Norfolk Show last year for the first time. He's from the Senoufou tribe, but was born and lived all his life in Abidjan, a large city. When he saw the Archery stand his eyes lit up, so he had a go with six arrows for £1. (Full-size bows, not toys) He's never before held a bow, but he looked like an expert as he drew the bow and shot all six one after the other and hit the middle bull's eye every time. The man was surprised to learn it was his first ever time. Naturally he had lots more tries, and practically every time he did the same thing. His tribe were originally forest dwellers in the rainforests of West Africa, and lived by hunting with bows and arrows. I'm convinced that he's genetically made to shoot arrows with precision. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 May 11 - 09:11 AM

I wonder if that's what sunk the Mary Rose - a couple of archers with 180lb bows - doing target practice in their cabin.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:17 AM

Just a quick update.

PB is now 554 for a Portsmouth (5 Doz @20 Yds, 60cm face), and I went and bought a 27" Hoyt Formula RX riser, with 34lbs Med limbs wound up to 41lbs now, (Might save up for some F3 limbs), which is one hell of a bow. I'm currently ranked 3rd in Cambridgeshire (Shooting less than 12 months class).

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM

One comment and I will leave you as this thread did get on the nasty side. The rules on hunting vary from state to state. However, most require "compound only bows" The new pulley systems have tremendous pressure and the new arrow hunting design is formidable. In the state of NY you have to be certified by an instructor before you can get a license to hunt with a bow. Deer are taken from a tree stand. For the guys I know this is their life, they practice all year. The typical kill zone is marked by the hunter and practiced over and over from his stand. The normal distance is 15 yards or under. The shot is taken from above downward and is a kill immediate shot.   It may be surprising to most that it was the bow hunters themselves that pressured the authorities to place the strong limits on who could do this. There is little worries anymore about the wounding. However like anything there are people who should never do this.

When I first moved to this state, it was legal during the salmon run to blind snatch fish. That is guys would toss a big hunk of lead with hooks and just pull the fish out. It was the fishermen that screamed foul and got the law changed. Most of our really serious conservation laws were all enacted by the sportsman.

Now people who target shoot with a long bow, my hats off to you .. that is dang hard ... I would love to do that again, I can't but sure wish I could.   I watched on TV guys and gals splitting an arrow in half at a distance I could not believe ... amazing and fun sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 08:15 AM

Some of the longbows recovered from the Mary Rose were 180lbs! Archelogical digs have found the skeletons of medieval English archers to be deformed due to the enormous poundage they were pulling on a warbow! My left clavical is deformed anyway, so I guess a few years shooting recurve won't make things any worse!

Wassail!! Chris

PS. If any Mudcat archers are around RAF Wyton, give me a PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:46 AM

60 lbs is pretty heavy. My own club has had an outbreak of home built longbows recently but they average in the 35-50 lb range. even so they will easily cast an arrow 100 yards though the accuracy goes to hell beyond 30 as you have to shoot more like a clout.

When I responded to Silas I was thinking 60 yards which seems to me to be a likely distance for hunting. One of my compounder friends normally groups all golds at 80 yards. Using the recurve I'm lucky to group outer blue :)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:20 AM

60#... that's a beast. Doubt if I could draw one of those anymore. You should alternate arms so you don't list!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:56 AM

Cheers Gnu. How's things going over there?

Maeve, I had a go with a 60lbs Longbow last week, which was just a bit different!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:45 PM

Phot... you know me. I don't often start fights but I usually finish them or apologize. Yes, I know I was a "mate" to a troll but I just don't like me and me mates being called morons by someone who hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

I shall not post again in response to any trolls.

My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: maeve
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:24 PM

Phot- We have Arrowwood growing in our hedgerow, chicken and turkey feathers for fletching, and Milkweed, Dogbane, and Amsonia plant fibers for cordage bowstrings. Black locust, Brown ash, and hazel are available to use for a bow, then I can perfect design and materials over time. I like target shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

Hi Phot.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you started the thread that you own it. However, you are quite right, it is starting to get a bit silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 02:13 PM

I started this thread to see if anyone out there enjoyed archery as I do, not start a slanging match between trolls and mates! Either wind your necks in or I will ask Joe to close this thread!

Phot

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

You were tryin pretty hard at mind readin above. Especially when you insinuated I, and others above, are morons. Keep posting bullshit as it further demonstrates the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

I have many qualities, but, sadly, mind reading is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:28 PM

I wasn't gonna but you make it soooo easy, Silas.

I assume Minstrel was talking about your distance or mine. It's obvious to me.

I don't use my fingers... think before you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:01 PM

"Minstrel's accuracy figures are tighter than yours, Silas. Think your next post through before you click submit.

As for me,

gnightgnu "

How do you work that out when he does not stipulate distance?

You can hold a 75lb bow on your fingers for ten minutes? Is that when you are shooting at flying pigs?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 11:58 AM

Oh Dear. I should have known better...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 11:55 AM

Minstrel's accuracy figures are tighter than yours, Silas. Think your next post through before you click submit.

As for me,

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 11:51 AM

My comments are in parentheses...

Silas... "If you really must kill animals for your own self-gratification (WRONG. I don't.),

then at the very least you have a duty and responsibility to ensure that your 'kill' is as clean and efficient as possible. (A bow is much "cleaner", more humane, except when an animal is shot with a gun in the brain or in the spinal column very near the brain. Many animals shot with a bow are unaware they have been shot and continue about thier business until they lay down and go to sleep.)

I would think even a moron would agree with that –no? (The only moron here is someone who is flappin bullshit on accounta they don't know what they are talkin about.)

Now, let's have a look at bow shooting. In order to be anywhere near competent enough to shoot animals I think it reasonable to expect the archer to be able to group ten arrows consecutively within a 24mm circle at a distance of 30 metre (Nobody shoots an arrow that far. Even with the 75# bow I trained on.)

– and to be able to do this time after time after time.
Now, depending on what sort of bow you use, you could easily be pulling a draw weight of 40lb plus. (40# is illegal here.)

It is not possible to sustain this level of static weight for more than a few seconds without affecting the accuracy of the aim. (WRONG. I could hold my 75# ten minutes easily.)

Difficult enough on a static target, let alone a moving one. (Nobody shoots at a moving target with a bow unless it's walking very slowly and it's close.)

So, now let's have a look at the things that can and frequently do go wrong. (Frequently? Bullshit.)

The archer can have a poor loose, to happens to all of us occasionally, the arrow could be miss-knocked, or an un-noticed broken or faulty knock could be used the knocking point on the string could slip, I have even known archers knock an arrow below the point instead of above it by mistake. The arrow could lose a fletch or be incorrectly fletched, or be knocked upside down. (And you could educate yourself... but not likely.)

Are you aware of just how an arrow flies as it leaves the bow? (Yes.)

The knock is trying to overtake the pile throughout the length of its flight making it inherently unstable. Even a slight side wind affects the flight, much more so than a bullet. (Not from a 75# bow at a distance of 15m.)

No, archery is not the way to shoot animals. If you must do it, use a high power rifle." (Educate yourself, TWIT.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

Know any nock nock jokes?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM

I am aware of compound bows and how they work and agree that the are better than recurve or flatbows for this purpose, however, the accuracy figures you quote are not good enough and there are still too many variables for it to be safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:22 AM

Silas,

Most bow hunting (AFAIK - as bow-hunting is illegal in the UK so I'm going on published info) is done using a compound bow. This uses cams to store the load and means that the archer can hold the bow at full draw for long periods with relative ease (out of a 60lb draw weight perhaps 15lb is on the fingers) combined with a magnifying/self-levelling sight and a string peep this would enable a competent archer to group very tightly say, a dozen in a 2 inch circle. A mechanical release can also be used to smooth out variation in loosing. Because they make very little noise on release, bows do not startle the game and ensure cleaner kills. Arrows do not break up on penetration and bounce around inside the corpse like a bullet will.

For their highly precise accuracy compound shooters may not compete with olympic and longbow archers and two compound archers of my acqaintance both regularly score close to maximums.

Tough luck Phot, my worst Portsmouth this season was 460, though I'm averaging 490.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:53 AM

I'm ok with darts and I have hit the odd target with a gun but Archery, by the time I'd untangled the bow from a boob the arrow just drooped like my enthusiasm for it and after all that I missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:33 AM

OK Gnu, let's talk about this then, shall we?
If you really must kill animals for your own self-gratification, then at the very least you have a duty and responsibility to ensure that your 'kill' is as clean and efficient as possible. I would think even a moron would agree with that –no?
Now, let's have a look at bow shooting. In order to be anywhere near competent enough to shoot animals I think it reasonable to expect the archer to be able to group ten arrows consecutively within a 24mm circle at a distance of 30 metre – and to be able to do this time after time after time.
Now, depending on what sort of bow you use, you could easily be pulling a draw weight of 40lb plus. It is not possible to sustain this level of static weight for more than a few seconds without affecting the accuracy of the aim. Difficult enough on a static target, let alone a moving one.
So, now let's have a look at the things that can and frequently do go wrong. The archer can have a poor loose, to happens to all of us occasionally, the arrow could be miss-knocked, or an un-noticed broken or faulty knock could be used the knocking point on the string could slip, I have even known archers knock an arrow below the point instead of above it by mistake. The arrow could lose a fletch or be incorrectly fletched, or be knocked upside down. Are you aware of just how an arrow flies as it leaves the bow? The knock is trying to overtake the pile throughout the length of its flight making it inherently unstable. Even a slight side wind affects the flight, much more so than a bullet.
No, archery is not the way to shoot animals. If you must do it, use a high power rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM

Silas... "... at least use a weapon that was suitable for the purpose."

That statement shows your ignorance of bow hunting.

That said, I feel no inclination to explain to you why your statement is incorrect. (= can't be arsed to bother.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Phot
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 06:18 AM

After two 14 hour days at work, I couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo last night! 412 for a Portsmouth, my worst score since I started!

Wassail!! Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM

Guest, no it isn't complicated at all: load, aim and loose. Thats all there is to it. it can be expensive though, The Hoyt RX and the Hoyt GMX are the best recurve target bows currently in production. Either of them as Phot remarks above will cost you the thick end of a grand.

On the other hand if you want to hit the little yellow circle in the middle of the target every time, THEN it gets complicated :)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

Ben, get off the internet and go find Josh - it's almost time for tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 11:37 AM

Doing Dick Whittington this year. As always, casting is a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 11:18 AM

Poster: Alan Whittle
"I shoot Olympic Recurve. The Hoyt Formula is an interesting bow with those cantilevered ends but I would take the GMX for preference."

Sounds bloody complicated!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:01 AM

I shoot Olympic Recurve. The Hoyt Formula is an interesting bow with those cantilevered ends but I would take the GMX for preference. Alas until the lottery win comes in I'm stuck with my gold medallist.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 07:12 AM

Fantastic, how are things in Ambridge? I have lost touch with it just recently but look forward to the Panto as always.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Ben Archer
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:06 AM

I'm an Archer, but I'm at the moment getting ready for the Ambridge Panto.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:53 AM

Like a lot of things I tried it once, target archery. The humans stood around were very afraid that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: Cats
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 06:04 PM

Hawker and Kev are both archers, give them a ring. kathy

Subject: RE: BS: Any Archers out there?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:27 PM

Mine's a pint of Shires