BS: Ireland-What happened?

Subject: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Duke
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 09:52 AM

I know from the news that Ireland is in trouble and I was wondering if someone could explain to me just what happened.

thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM

The bubble burst.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:08 AM

See other posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Global capitalism was shown very clearly for what it is.

But nobody noticed!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:25 AM

I bloody did. Knew this was going to happen while the Tiger was still roaring. Honestly, did people learn nothing from 1929?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:26 AM

BTW, guess who just won the Donegal by-election. Sinn Féin.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM

Adams for Taoiseach?

Now that WOULD be something....a nation once again!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 11:50 AM

It was explained very clearly how the current crisis came about, by a contributor to the other thread.

Britain ponced off the world for centuries, and when we pulled out - reluctantly, not only had we manipulated economies and destroyed cultures "For God, Queen and Empire", we left many of our former colonies in shit-order - Ireland being a perfect example.
Pay-back time, I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

The good years were nothing to do with us, obviously.
But, as soon as something goes wrong, we caused it by the way we left Ireland ninety odd years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:14 PM

Hate to pee on bonfires here..

Despite the usual poetic historical dew eyed nonsense when people discuss Ireland, or indeed using UK's colonial past to describe situations of today anywhere.............

The financial position was caused by us all, including all the armchair socialists who buy beer and incontinence pads from multinational companies. Sorry lads, but its your fault every bit as much as mine.

And it was caused by financial people, advertising executives and those who raise expectations of your average Western world citizen by telling us we can have whatever we want whenever we want it.

It has nowt to do with Cromwell, potato blight, black & tans, Jack Charlton or U2. Or indeed any political acts, as governments are not even in the same league as those who run the world. One country? A bit small when you can run the world. Welcome to HSBC et al, managing what the Raj could only play at...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:29 PM

Not helped by the regime in power trying to turn the place into the Bahamas of the North Atlantic by setting the lowest rate of corporate tax in Europe and then expecting the rest of Europe to fund the corporations' free ride by loans and currency policies that amounted to a Ponzi scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:29 PM

Gerry Adams[IMO], is the only politician in IRELAND with any credibilty, or statesmanlike qualities.
keith a,you didnt cause it , but the English establishment have certainly contributed with others[ the irish establishment and european banks, to the present situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:31 PM

jack campin stick to modes[something you know about]

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:34 PM

Feck that. You take the blame if you like. I have refuse to be part of the 'we're all guilty'.

The government has been careless to a fault, well beyond the point it was clear the house of card was starting to tumble down. The banks have been careless and out for profit at all cost. Where was the financial regulator in all this? Ah yes, the government was too busy lowering taxes and giving tax incentives to developers to worry about financial regulation.

let's not now pretend it all happened to the country without warning, a bolt from the blue. There were plenty of warnings along the way
the bubble wasn't sustainable. And what was the government's reaction, well, this was!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:48 PM

thanks PETER, to quote Martin Carthy "who is that berk".

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:50 PM

I dont mean you peter, but Bertie.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

Here he is again,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUrk5qPqt94&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:58 PM

and againhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFBfkusf8R0&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 06:57 PM

An explosion or a hurricane I can understand and see the aftermath of. But nothing any of you have said in the thread has made it any easier to grasp. It is possibly my fault.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:05 PM

Its all our fault.
We found a note admitting guilt in the basement.

"I done it. My fault.

signed
Oliver Cromwell"

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 03:10 AM

Here it is, simply explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLniOkpl1QY

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: skarpi
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 04:12 PM

well same as in Iceland , but Ireland is not going let banks fall
people have to hold the up for many years to come , Iceland
did let them fall .

kv Skarpi .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

Was it winning The Eurovision Song Contest wot did it?

Was it Riverdance?

Was it Dana?

Is it.............DANIEL O'DONNELL???????

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: J-boy
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:27 PM

Greed happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 11:48 AM

Duke, Art
I teach basic business finance (among other things) at a local University here in Scotland and some students asked me the same question. I'm more into micro (company level) economics than macro (country level but let's see if I can summarise what seems to have happened.

Two things happen in most market economies
1. Economies are cyclical
2. Governments spend more than they receive in taxes

Explain point 1: The economy has low periods when business doesn't look so good. Companies don't invest because it doesn't look like their investment will be recouped. How do they do this calculation? They use a technique called discounted cash flow or net present value analysis. The arithmetic of these calculations depends on interest rates. If they are high the investment is likely to look less profitable, but if they are low the investment is likely to look more profitable.

So what can the government/central bank do when business is bad? It can reduce interest rates, which has the effect of 'turning on' investment projects. And one company's investment project (say a new office) is another company's day to day business (think of architects, builders, electrical/IT installers etc). So reducing interest rates normally has the effect of increasing economic output.

As output grows more individuals and companies start to look at the economic prospects and think 'I'd like to spend/invest'. Because rates are cheap, it looks feasible for them to do this by borrowing money - on credit schemes for individuals, or bank loans for companies. So as the economy expands there is an increased demand for this cheap money. This demand should be self-limiting - if the demand for money goes up the cost of borrowing the money (interest rates) should go up as well. So you'd expect interest rates to be cyclic - low when the economy is doing badly and high when it is doing well.

What happened in Ireland was that their economy had got to the natural peak of the cycle in 1999 and interest rates on the old Irish Punt were increasing to about 6-7%. But it joined the Euro at a time when Euro interest rates were only 3-4%. Result: lots of cheap capital.

And that's not necessarily a good thing. In a thriving economy you'll find an eventual shortage of good investment projects. You've built the factories, got the machinery, labour is fully employed, its hard to get extra materials/workers, so what do you spend the money on? More consumer goods? That, and the thing that everyone thinks can only ever increase in price - property.

So the banks had access to cheap money which they lent out to entrepreneurs (probably good), individuals building houses (possibly good unless they were speculating) property speculators (generally bad). And these were the same banks where members of the general public kept most of their savings. Over the 'boom years' the quality of the developments that the banks lent into got lower and lower (this wasn't just in Ireland - the same thing happened in the US, Iceland, etc). In addition, when you lend money on property you tend to make long term loans (15 years+), but as the banks lent more and more (and of course borrowers demanded more and more), they financed that lending by borrowing money from other banks - often quite short-term loans. In the UK Northern Rock did a lot of this but so did the Irish banks.

In 2008 it all unwound - it became clear that that some of the loans (first in America and then elsewhere) were of low quality and never going to be repaid. That caused all the banks to panic, to stop lending to each other, and to retain as much cash as they could for themselves. That meant that the banks who borrowed short to lend long suffered a 'liquidity crisis' (banker speak for running out of cash). Some countries, including Ireland, had banks that had been (by all accounts) particularly 'adventurous' in their lending. So the first problem for Ireland has been a banking crisis. Can the Government (i.e. the taxpayer) support the banks to stop them going out of business? Bearing in mind that if they don't, all those citizens who've put their life savings into the those banks will lose their money.

2. That brings in the second problem. What can the government do in a banking crisis? Traditionally, the response to a 'liquidity crisis' is to cut interest rates so that its easier for the banks to get money and to lend it each other. The trouble was interest rates were already too low - that had caused the crisis. Lowering them had no effect on interbank transactions - even in the UK, when the Bank of England cut the base rate to 0.5%, banks still wouldn't/couldn't loan to each other.

So what else could the Government(s) do? Spend money themselves to support the banks. In the UK the Government made it clear that it could put as much as £850 billion into the banks to do this - in fact the amount turned out to be about £100 billion and it looks they'll get their money back. In Ireland the money needed has been much bigger in relation to the size of the Irish economy. The Government probably couldn't get this money from taxpayers so would they have to borrow it?

Most governments borrow money by issuing a special type of debt government bonds ('gilts' in the UK). There is a continuous process of auctioning these bonds where governments effectively are saying 'who'd like to lend us money for x years at y% interest rates?' The investors may be banks, individuals, or other countries (the Chinese have a lot of American debt for example). There is also a thriving secondary market in this debt. As this secondary market trades it tells you what the interest rate needs to be for any new debt. If £100 worth of 5% interest debt (yielding £5 per year) is sold for £90 its implied interest rate is now 5/90 or 5.55%. The average yield on UK government debt is about 3.8%. By contrast, the yield on Irish bonds has reached 9% (that means £100 of 5% debt is only valued at £55).

The yield got so high because investors don't believe that the Irish government can repay their debts in full. They already owed a lot of money before the crisis, and this has made it really bad. What governments should do is to reduce their borrowing during the 'boom years' so they've got room for manoeuvre during the bad years. Successive governments in Ireland didn't really do this (neither did the Greeks, Portuguese etc, but also neither did the UK - see The Financial Deficit Explained).

So lending money to Ireland looks risky, and investors are basically asking for 9% to loan Euros to them (rather than 3% to loan to Germany). How do you convince investors that you could repay the loans? By showing how you are cutting costs and increasing revenues.

To finish, the Irish government is facing a number of very unpleasant choices. It could:

1. Let the banks go bust and its citizens lose their money.
2. Default (not repay) on its international 'sovereign debts' - but then 'never' be able to borrow from anyone ever again. It would then have to balance its budget and make massive cuts as it would be in danger of literally running out of money
3. Come out of the Euro and devalue its currency (it would probably have to do this if it did number 2), to reduce the value of its debt. That's what the Weimar Republic in Germany did in the 1920's and we know how that ended
4. Cut its spending hugely, and raise taxes, and hope that potential investors will be convinced - this is what they have been trying to do, and what Governments everywhere did in the 1930's. The danger is that you could get into a lasting depression just like then.
5. Accept a rescue package, at lower interest rates than otherwise, which together with some cuts, will stabilise both the banks and the country's economy. The question is what terms the EU will impose on the rescue package - in particular will it want Ireland to increase its low corporation tax which has been instrumental in attracting inward (esp US) investment into Ireland?

Its not all gloom, as there are some examples of countries getting into this kind of mess and then getting out again;
Can Ireland Bounce Back - How 5 other Nations Fared

Anyway I hope that helps and I'd be interested to receive comments from readers in general - is this clear, and would my students understand it?

Cheers from a very snowy Scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 11:53 AM

What happened? Well, a government with strong financial and personal links to developers failed to stop rapidly increasing house prices - they were probably frightened to, as construction was 45% of the economy in 2007 when this tipped over the edge.

The developers were borrowing heavily, mainly from one bank with just 40 depositors, Anglo Irish. Anglo Irish was borrowing the money to lend from big European and American banks (including the Landesbanks - state-owned banks - in Germany).

These superbanks don't appear to have performed due diligence (made sure that the loans were being made on a sound basis).

When the American bubble popped, with the crash of Lehman Brothers and the subsequent crash of the subprime lenders who had lent money to poor people who couldn't pay, a whole series of international loans started unwinding.

Credit stopped being available in Ireland, and the construction industry - developers, builders, plumbers, architects, suppliers, electricians, little shops selling breakfast rolls and coffee, etc, etc - just screeched to a halt. Thousands of people were on the dole within weeks. Hiding the true extent of this was the fact that anyone who could afford it went back into education to 'requalify', and anyone with a spouse rapidly disappeared off the 'live register' of people being paid relief.


In the latest disaster, the Irish banks, which were propped up by massive funding from the citizens last year, turned out to have been lying in their teeth about the extent of their exposure (bad loans). Good money has been poured after bad. The French, British, Germans and Belgians are terrified that the Irish crash, by "contagion" is going to infect banks in other vulnerable countries.

The big dread is that Spain may fall, which could bring down the whole interlinked euro economy.

Clear now?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 11:59 AM

Well, I'm glad so many people understand what happened. Maybe you could get a post teaching at LSE?

Thing is, everybody predicted this situation but as economics is an inexact science, (guest KP may not fully agree with that?) politicians banked on everybody being wrong and anyway, it relies on market forces and the market doesn't want to self implode.

Until the markets realised they can be reckless after all, as governments will bail them out. Hence the predictions could come true after all.

And we are all Nostradamus!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:01 PM

I gegt to go to Europe this spring, will Ireland be really cheap to visit?

We went to Europe after Chernobyl, and everyone was pathetically grateful that we came at all... and every government reported that the fallout was worse (pick a neighboring country) than in their own, which was kind of funny. Sad, but funny too.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

Hard to say, Mrrzy - we're in the euro, so how cheap it is depends on how the euro compares to... whatever you're using.

Hotels are certainly cheaper than they were, the ones that remain open.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

Steamin Willie

Nope, economics is about as inexact as it gets. Having said that, slashing interest rates in an economy which was already 'going strong' was a fairly predictable way to end in 'boom and bust'

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:26 PM

Well, KP, we should be fine now so, since we're going to have to pay €10bn a year in interest alone on these loans.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:27 PM

only part of ireland is in the euro, the other part is in the sterling.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:29 PM

What happened in Ireland - capitalism happened; the unrestrained greed of the banks, the developers and the speculators, coupled with the ineptitude, indifference and corruption of the politicians managed to throw away all the gains made ofer the last decade or so.
The present attitude of ALL the major political parties is to screw the less well off and leaved those who created the present mess relatively untouched.
The only way that it can be claimed that "its your fault every bit as much as mine" is that we trusted the bastards in the first place.
We have a General Election on the horizon; probably the only opportunity we'll get of making them upstairs change their attitude
Keith,
As you insist on aiming your comments directly at me, please get what I've said right - and please don't fuck up yet another thread with your vacuous attention seeking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:53 PM

Thompson,
According to this article they'll be paying 6.7% on €85 bn or about €5.7 bn a year.

EU finance ministers meet amid row over Irish interest rate

The only good thing you could say about that is it could have been worse...at least they're not paying 9%, but its still pretty horrible.

If there is a forthcoming general election it will be interesting to see whether the various parties will actually spell out the alternatives I've listed above - whoever is in power will have to make some horrible decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 12:59 PM

Sinn Fein to their credit are the only party where the tds accept an industrial wage, and the rest goes in to party funds.
they are the only party, that is not[SO FAR] infiltrated by career politicians, Their leader is the only irish politician[imo]who has statesmanlike qualities, and who might drive a better deal for ireland with the IMF.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

Of course what also happened is that large areas of Ireland got covered in buildings that no-one wants to buy. The same thing has happened here in Manchester where I live (with significant but somewhat less dire impacts on the economy because the British economic situation is somewhat different). What no-one seems to care about or notice is that all of this pointless building has a dire effect on the local ecology as well as the economy. Negative effects include increased run-off of water - with a consequent increase in flood risk - and decreased biodiversity. In rural areas, of course, covering potential farmland in concrete means that that farmland can never be used for producing food if it is ever needed in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 01:46 PM

What no-one seems to care about or notice is that all of this pointless building has a dire effect on the local ecology as well as the economy. Negative effects include increased run-off of water - with a consequent increase in flood risk - and decreased biodiversity. In rural areas, of course, covering potential farmland in concrete means that that farmland can never be used for producing food if it is ever needed in the future.
I agree, which is why i have never sold off land for building.
i have[when i have needed to] gone out and busked instead, and everyone told me i was a nut case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 07:55 PM

What happened? GREED.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:18 AM

"please get what I've said right "

Cut and pasted quote!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:29 AM

"Cut and pasted quote!"
Yup - that's what you do best - if out of context, which you also do quite well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:35 AM

The quote IN context.
thread.cfm?threadid=133667&messages=107#3035800

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 05:56 AM

"The quote IN context."
The present crisis is an international one affecting many countries.
In spite of the mess that Britain left the country in (unchallenged by you, who have consistently argued that because a carefuly selected minority of the population of Ireland are in favour of partition, there is no other alternative), Ireland eventually did well out of Europe and became one of the leading European states.
The present crisis, caused by the very nature of capitalism, has lost any gains made over the last couple of decades.
That is my attitude to what is happening at present and that of most people on this thread, in Ireland, Britain and all over the world, (you have declined to comment and, in your usual fashion, have leeched off other people's opinions and suggestions).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 06:04 AM

OK, but not what you said before.
Re partition, they did not want in, so force them against their will?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 06:19 AM

I heard a nice story the other day.

An American tourist hands over 100 Euro at a hotel. The hotelier pays his butcher with it, the butcher pays his petrol bill, the garage guy buys a meal and some drinks at the hotel.
Then the Yank comes back and complains and gets a 100 Euro refund.

GNP has increased and the economy is still working.
QED?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:19 AM

"Re partition, they did not want in, so force them against their will?"
One more time - a carefully selected minority of the population did not want in.
Partitioning Ireland is about as democratic as allowing the Home Counties to leave the UK and become the 51st state of the US - no matter how many Londoners might be in favour of it - countries don't work like that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:51 AM

The 6 counties self selected.
They did not want to join.
So force them to?
Not very liberal.
Quite fascist even.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 07:57 AM

An article criticizing the rescue deal from the Daily Telegraph (slightly surprising source).

Ireland's Debt Servitude

I have to apologise for a mistake in my earlier post. Ireland did run a surplus in the 'good years' (unlike the UK) - its just that the money needed to stabilise the Banks is so huge that it's driving them into deficit.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:10 AM

"Quite fascist even."
You're at it again, and after all that whingeing and snivelling about being called a racist.
If it is fascist to suggest the border is the sole cause of 90 years of discontent and bloodshed because two thirds of the population of six counties wish it to remain; how fascist is it to suggest that it should be put there in the first place, despite that fact that the vast majority of the population of Ireland were so opposed to it that they fought a civil war over it?
I take it you believe that it is acceptible that the Home Counties become the 51st State should the majority of those counties wish it?
Don't (continue to ) be a pratt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM

There's one t in prat Jim, but bear with me, there is a reason for my pedantry.

We have a global finance structure in the world, which through increased communications terchnology, internet etc, has shrunk the world to the effect that the beat of a butterfly in China can cause the drains to block in Peru or whatever the ruddy quote is.

Sorry, but all this talk about some historical struggle, about how The UK shafted its neighbour for so long, about Trevellion and his policies, about black and tans, about pikesmen in 1798, about holes appearing in the wall of a post office, about signing the book of condolence at the German embassy in 1945, about influx of EU restructuring money throughout the '90s and beyond, about guinness, about .....................

It is all there, I grant you.

But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the naivety of the Irish government in stoking an overheated economy whilst pissing off EU partners with its tax laws.

That, not poetic history is the cause of the present problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:26 AM

I bet two thirds of Mexicans want California.
Are you sure the civil war was about the border?
Not something to do with the status of the Republic?

So you really do think they should have been subjugated by force.
That is not at all liberal.
That is fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 09:18 AM

Willie
"But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the naivety of the Irish government in stoking an overheated economy whilst pissing off EU partners with its tax laws."
Could not agtree more - but I would point out that this is a world-wide problem in which no country comes out with clean hands, Ireland, UK -
you name it, they've all taken part in nausing up the world economy.
They have also all opted for the old usual solution of making the poor pay for the transgressions of the rich - or have I missed the bit where they've attempted to take from those who can afford it rather than closing hospitals, cutting the minimun wage, bleeding pensions, raising education fees......? Don't think so.
You are also right that Ireland's history has no direct bearing on the present state of affairs here - that's just Dickhead licking past wounds.
Full recovery and lasting peace in Ireland is a different matter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

"Ireland's history has no direct bearing on the present state of affairs here - that's just Dickhead licking past wounds."

No, that was your previously expressed opinion, as quoted by me earlier.
I am very pleased to see that there is one thing you have now stopped blaming us for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 10:05 AM

Yes, but why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? England and Ireland are pretty good places to live. That's the one thing we've got going for us. People look round the world, and they say....looks good to me - compared to the other places. even 'the troubles' would have fit comfortably into the average noisy weekend in New York, or Chicago.

Theres more freedom than most places. the weather is sort of liveable with. The english language means we've got access to all sorts of cultural influences, and lots in common with places like America India and Australia.

Okay they got the sums wrong. But the basic fact remains - Ireland and England are shit hot places to live in and (supply and demand!) you couldn't go wrong building houses for the folks who want to live there. Yet they did. I think its a pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:39 PM

"why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? "
You want to be here in the winter when many of the the coastal towns resemble Wild-West ghost towns, when the few houses that have been sold as holiday homes stand empty - all that's missing is the tumbleweed in the street.
These ghost estates have destroyed whole communities, making the area too expensive for locals, and unable to sustain the all-the-year-round facilities - shops, cinemas, pubs, etc - much of what goes into the life of a community.
In this town, out of an estate of 30 odd new houses, only two have been sold, the rest stand empty.
In the next town up the coast, Lahinch, thanks to the recession, a planned complex of around a dozen houses were abandoned after having just been started - now they are a building site of concrete shells swimming in a sea of mud - an eysore and a hazard for local children.
How many reasons is that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 12:58 PM

Maybe there should be mention of the hundreds of ghost estates there as well Jim. Especially the ones that litter the Midlands, the former Dublin commuter belt. But they're everywhere. Empty, often unfinished and without a chance of ever being sold.


The ghost estates of Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:12 PM

The English invaded but I didn't think that was news.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 01:40 PM

The point is that they're still in a desirable place to live. So at some point, they're going to be a good deal. supply and demand and all that.

Every builder I've ever known has assured me the building trade is very iffy - its either feast or famine. (Perhaps not the happiest of metaphors!)

The thing is, don't be conned into thinking what you've got is worthless - its the oldest crookedest trick in the book. Every market trader has a gold badge in it. That's the bullshit that lost us the coal industry, its a piece of flim flam - don't fall for it.

Lots of people would like a house in Ireland. Lots of Irish people who've worked all their lives in England and America would like to retire to those houses. Rent them out to those people - get the money moving again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 02:04 PM

Well Alan, they're there and a lot of them for sale. Problem is, nobody wants them.


The few people who were so unlucky to buy a house in these estates are now stuck with them forever. Often as only occupant of an entire estate and with a negative equity of ten of thousands of Euro. It's pretty desperate.

They're not place people are going to retire to. Really.

There are loads of documentaries and news reports on the issue on YouTube.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 02:09 PM

And anyone wishing to retire to Ireland would be well advised to look into the state of the health system. Which was already recognised by all as a disgrace during the boom years but with it's funding severely cut it is not likely to improve any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

"The point is that they're still in a desirable place to live"
Some places are desirable places to live - but the fact that the building boom was totally unplanned lead to mass indiscriminate building - the 'ghost estates' (little boxes) that Peter was referring to.
The examples I gave above were not a case of our being fooled - I drive past several of them daily.
The ghost town with the tumbleweed I described was once a pretty Victorian watering-spot; now, over half of the houses stand empty nine months of the year - no pub, one shop, and lots and lots of collapsed businesses.
Planned expansion can be an boon - unplanned can (and does) destroy existing communities.
The phenomenon of prioing locals out of areas is by no means confined to Ireland; we visited Norfolk regularly enough to see the devistating effect it had there.
And then there's the 'Greg Norman syndrome', where incomers build close to the beach and fence it off, preventing local access.
One TV presenter here who specialises in rural activities says he now goes round with a pair of pliers in his pocket to cut the barbed wire fences put up by holiday home owners to fence off sections of the beach.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 03:24 PM

And anyone wishing to retire to Ireland would be well advised to look into the state of the health system. Which was already recognised by all as a disgrace during the boom years but with it's funding severely cut it is not likely to improve any time soon.
no, not a disgrace [AS FAR AS MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE GOES], I managed to get a hernia operation done[at BANTRY HOSPITAL] within a week of diagnosis, total cost 130 euros.
OK its only one example, but I was extremely satisfied

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

The problems we're talking about don't have anything to do with the historical disaster of being colonised by an unfriendly neighbour.

If you're British, don't attack Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate. This rate, which compensates for the fact that Ireland is surrounded by sea dividing it from its two main markets, allows the country to be an attractive host to multinationals.

If the tax rate were axed, those multinationals would very probably leave; they'd quite possibly leave not just Ireland but Europe.

And the effect on Britain of the utter impoverishment of its largest customer would not be pretty.

If Ireland becomes poor, Britain loses its largest customer. Remember that above all. You may think you're cutting Ireland's throat, but the knife will travel on to stab your own heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 04:31 PM

Well that's convinced me. I won't be cutting Ireland's throat - like I was planning to.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:42 AM

THis arrived this morning.
http://fintanotoole.ie/petition/

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 02:44 AM

Here's a piece by economist David McWilliams on the likely effect on Ireland of the "bailout":

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/bailout-will-sink-ireland-before-we-can-even-swim-2442878.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:20 PM

This guy puts it concisely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY6kXhQDQo

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:34 PM

Alan Whittle: Yes, but why was it a crap idea to build lots of houses? England and Ireland are pretty good places to live. That's the one thing we've got going for us. People look round the world, and they say....looks good to me - compared to the other places

But in the case of Ireland...to build 700,000 new houses in the last few years when the whole population's only 4.5 million smacks of lunacy. That's one new house for every 6 people...in a country where the vast majority of the population already had somewhere to live!Are tyou really going to get an influx of immigrants equal to 15% of your total population in the space of just a few years, to take up the over-supply?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:59 AM

Well, I've had a mate who built some great houses and Norman Lamonts green shoots of economic recovery finished off his company. Still twenty years later people are living in those nice houses. They're still nice places to live.

Its a tough thing being a builder when these financial experts are buggering up things on a regular basis. Its still a better contribution to build nice homes for people than talking bollocks in Parliament and pretending you have some grasp of economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:24 AM

Al, do you have the remotest idea of how many vacant new estates - not houses but whole new estates - there are here? And derelict sites of unfinished ones, where the half-constructed grey shells are rotting away in the weather and they're not even built yet? Most of this was based on speculation and greed, financed by credit & debt and not on the needs of the people. Many of whom now can't afford to buy anywhere because they're (a) out of work (b) taxed and levied to death (c) being choked by killer mortgages on properties no longer valued at what they paid for them (d) all of the above, further hiroshima'd by the budget we've just had, which pretty much axed all relief on house-buying. And NO home is "nice" when it is windowless and open to the weather on one side.

A house is only worth what the market will pay for it. We currently have a ferocious oversupply of housing per capita head of population - I can't remember what the surplus-to-requirement percentage was cited at, but it's phenomenal. Getting to the village we live in means driving miles down a narrowish, pretty-but-not-very-good road (making travelling to work difficult & expensive) and like everywhere else, we have not one but two abandoned "ghost" estates plus an additional terrace of gaping, frontless grey concrete shells behind Harris fencing, which are never going to be finished (they ran out of money) and have been sitting there for two years, slowly being destroyed by the damp and salty sea air. Who did they think they were going to sell these to?

The cost of commuting to a job - never mind the carbon footprint and the employment situation - alone would be crippling. And there's certainly no work here. Two of the village's three pubs have now shut, ditto a food shop. And what tourist wants to pay money to travel, only to look at ugly jagged concrete and For-Sale signs?

All these houses weren't build for people to live in - that's a by-product. They were built to make money. By borrowing. From funds that weren't there. Which. We. Are. Now. All. Paying. For. Even those hundreds of thousands of us who never got into debt, never lent money or speculated, worked hard and paid all their taxes & bills on time. But the people who are going to pay the worst are the kids, whose future has been sold out from under them.

Friend of mine has a son who's just done his Leaving Cert (equivalent of A-Levels/SAT's). I asked him what the boy wanted to do. He said that Plan A was to go into the Gardai (police force). But they're hugely oversubscribed with applicants already and not that easy to get into, I said, what's plan B?

Plan B is the boat to Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM

I'm with Bonnie 100% - that sums up exactly how it has been heer throughout the last ten years - the result - many 100s of 'ghost estates.
"Its a tough thing being a builder "
It's very difficult to 'pity the downtrodden builder' when wwe look out and see the (economic, social and aesthetic) devestation caused by unplanned building driven by greed.
Are you suggesting that there's nothing wrong with unplanned building?
You've had your examples - plenty more if you're prepared to take them on board.
The seaside town I mentioned earlier was expanded without the necessary alteration to the infrastructure - result - raw sewage pumped into the sea, polluting a bay that attracts many thousands of visitors each year.
We live a few miles from on of Europe's most ecologically sensitive areas, The Burren (look it up). The unplanned construction of 'trophy houses' (not many, admittedly; they wouldn't dare, but they would if they could get away with it) has resulted in ugly blots of one of the world's most important natural heritage sites.
As the result of 'pushing the envlope' (offering remuneration to the right people), the last ten + years has led to large scale building on the flood plain of the local river in our market town - result - regularly flooded shops and homes.
Four years ago we lost our view of Mount Callan - somebody put a trophy house slap in the way. "Regrettable" we though; "but people have to live somewhere"; except for the fact that the house has never been occupied.
Ireland is attractive, both to visit and to live in, for many reasons; its natural and vernacular beauty, its people, its heritage, its sense of community.... - all adversely effected by a building boom which played a major part in the current crash and which has left running sores of estates all over the country.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:00 AM

A few years ago, a farmer here told me he had just sold 24 acres of land "for houses to be built on it". I said nothing but he obviously saw the disapproving and disgusted look on my face, and continued that he hadn't wanted to. Why did he, then? Because of punitive taxation or some similar strongarm tactics levied by our dear government (while Bertie Ahern was still in power, yes, the same Bertie Ahern who was later ousted for corruption). It's not like the farmer was going to see any fat profits out of his land sale. He did it to avoid it costing him. I can't remember the details, though the farmer did explain them to me, but basically it was the offer he couldn't refuse.

Think about it: a government-sanctioned financial disincentive to hang onto your land. This was while the Tiger was still gobbling us alive... whooops... meant to type Roaring.

Read David McWilliams' book The Generation Game. Or anything else he's written recently. He's google-able in the news feeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:13 AM

Other problem: We badly need to export, and you can't export houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:35 AM

Jim forgot to mention that in County Clare 60% of ALL houses were built during the boom years (the last ten/twelve years in other words). Just to give an indication of the lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:49 PM

Obviously I've got it all wrong - sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:45 AM

"Obviously I've got it all wrong - sorry!"
Easily done unless you're on the spot to see the damage done Alan.
It is difficult to believe the stupidity and insensitivity (not to mention the naked greed) that has gone into creating the present situation.
Yesterday, on the heels of a swingeing budget mainly affecting the less well off of Ireland, them at Leinster House made public the obscene bonuses that will continue to be paid to top executives - you couldn't make it up if you tried!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

Somebody on the radio yesterday called the current situation in Ireland "Craggy Island", which backed up what John Gormley had previously said to the effect of being in the government was like being in an assylum! - so why the hell doesn't he get himself out if it instead of supporting such a corrupt regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:53 AM

Ireland got robbed by bankers ....just like in Iceland ....
and they are gonna let the people pay ...just like in Iceland
so if you have nothing to loose ..take up your gun and aim it to the bankers .....not the people who work as the cashier but those who run
the bank....Iceland did let the banks to fall ...thank god ...and now we are seeing what those robbers where doing ...they still are free to go
and most of them live in London ....in the country witch we are in debt with out of Icesave...so why don´t the british take them and lock them up.....noone would miss them ....not me anyway ...

Ireland ...let the banks fall take the people who did this and lock them up , if the PM won´t do it then do it your self .
things are not finished here in Iceland people are still very very
angry , they are not doing anything to get those crooks ....

Ireland and Iceland got hit by crooks of the banking system .
and more will follow .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM

nobody should be bailing out bond holders, these bond holders are extremely wealthy, one of them owns 40 per cent of a swissbank, other bond holders include goldman sachs and jp morgan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

Other problem: We badly need to export, and you can't export houses.
    so now ireland is exporting people, again, mean while the taoiseach Biffo[even after his pay cut gets 30 thousand euros more than DavidCameron]

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:58 AM

Skarpi, Iceland has an independent currency. Ireland doesn't. We can't re-value the Euro.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:00 AM

PS: Nice to see you again, Al (if you're the Al I'm thinking of), even though it's such a gloomy topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:11 PM

Yes Bonnie - its me. I used to keep looking in on mudcat just to see if any old mates were dead.(Monty Sunshine in The Times today...!)

I've stopped arguing with people about the nature of traditional music. I've accepted it, I'm eccentric. My views serve me well as as an artist, but they are unacceptable to most in the folk world.

I live in Dorset now, I've retired there.

I hope you got to see the phenomenal essay John McLaughlin put on my webpage about Kavanagh

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id29.html

I hope you yourself are keeping well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:41 AM

thanks Al, but have you seen the song the dawning of the day, i find it interesting to compare raglan road with the[ dawning of the day] a song that was already in existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:44 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss    Lyrics   

One morning early I walked forth
By the margin of Lough Leane
The sunshine dressed the trees in green
And summer bloomed again
I left the town and wandered on
Through fields all green and gay
And whom should I meet but a colleen sweet
At the dawning of the day.
No cap or cloak this maiden wore
Her neck and feet were bare
Down to the grass in ringlets fell
Her glossy golden hair
A milking pail was in her hand
She was lovely, young and gay
She wore the palm from Venus bright
By the dawning of the day.

On a mossy bank I sat me down
With the maiden by my side
With gentle words I courted her
And asked her to be my bride
She said, "Young man don't bring me blame"
And swiftly turned away
And the morning light was shining bright
At the dawning of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:46 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtAXRTGX3ss

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:53 AM

this is a good one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA38cd9LVww

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

yes Bonnie , I know we have .
but still some wants to join the EU :O( sorry to say .
kv Skarpi .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:04 AM

Just heard that Allied Irish Bank has cancelled plans to pay out 40 million euro in bonuses following a public outcry. The remarkable thing was they were even planning to carry on paying bonuses in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

It's not so much they made a choice to cancel, the government intends to pass legislation tomorrow that will stop the paying of bonuses as a condition of the state's bail-out of the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:07 AM

"Just heard that Allied Irish Bank has cancelled plans to pay out 40 million euro in bonuses following a public outcry."
Thanks to the government threat to withdraw the €billions of bailout money.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:37 AM

I think even the government realised that paying out bonuses was a step too far, even for the Irish banks.

I was reminded the other day of the 'Eire Nua' plan that Sinn Fein put forward in the 70s. Am I the only one who thinks this may be an idea whose time has come?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM

Fintan O Toole in the irish Times : AIB executives tried to rush inflated bonuses through as bail out loomed

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: IanC
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM

"We artisans of the lower middle class who work with honest jimmies on the cash boxes of small shopkeepers, are being ruined by large concerns backed by the banks. What is a picklock to a bank share? What is the burgling of a bank to the founding of a bank? What is the murder of a man to the employment of a man?"

Mac The Knife from "The Threepenny Opera"

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM

what would Tom Barry have done, probably taken biffo hostage,or blown up the dail, what a travesty that Barry and others fought for freedom and it has come to this

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:51 PM

Wonder why the Irish government didn't do this 2 years ago, we might have avoided a lot of the grief we are now encountering! Also, why don't they claim back all the bonuses from the other banks we, the taxpayers, have had to bail out?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:28 AM

Probably cuz they're all mutually-back-scratching cronies who are in each other's pockets, and it's only the public embarrassment factor that's saving us now. Remember the Eleventh and Twelfth Commandments:

11. Thou shalt not be SEEN TO. . . [fill in the blank]

12. Do Unto the other guy - and do it first

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:29 AM

But, hey... there's a bright side: I heard that Apple was planning to bail us out. They're going to buy the place and re-name it

iLand

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

Ofcourse after the righteous indignation yesterday by some government ministers, especially the Minister of Finance, about it being morally wrong for some people to receive bonuses 'when the rest of the country is getting worse off', it now turns out performance bonuses are being paid out to civil servants, quite a few, but not all, in the Ministry of Finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:02 AM

Yep. And Allied Irish Bank are STILL taking legal steps to see if they can get their hands on "their" bonuses. As I write.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:08 AM

In fairness I think there's an element of righteous indignation an pure old begrudgery in the protests against any sort of bonus (I can imagine the people in MinFin doing overtime to keep the country afloat). Performance bonuses for bankers, covering the time their bank went insolvent, that's stretching it a bit, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:11 AM

.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1215/dail-business.html

I like the bit that says: The main opposition parties will not try to block the bank restructuring bill... even though [they have] reservations about the wide powers which it gives to the Finance Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:19 AM

Problem is ofcourse none of the parties, government or opposition knows how to find a way out of the mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

This appears to be a fair summary of what the Irish Government will be empowered to do should the bill be passed - not quite nationalisation, but a step in the right direction, should the powers be used sensibly.
Jim Carroll

"THE GOVERNMENT will have far-reaching powers to restructure the banking system, including the ability to force losses on to subordinated bondholders and stop future bonus payments to staff, under a draft law published yesterday.
The sweeping measures will allow the Minister for Finance to transfer loans and deposits out of the lenders in a bid to reduce the size of the banking system.
Special managers can be appointed to a bank by the Minister if it is faced with "an imminent threat" to its stability. They will have powers
to sack directors and overrule share-holders.        
The law will allow the Government to pump further cash into AIB, which has a €9.8 billion capital hole, before the end of the year, effectively nationalising a fourth lender.        
It will also enable the Government to start winding down Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society within weeks, paving the way for the transfer of their deposits to a other banks."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:45 AM

And HONESTLY. That's the bit that worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:07 AM

Not me I'm afraid Bonnie - the government have at least to go through the motions of answering to the people (even though they seldom do), whereas the banks are answerable to nobody but themselves and their investors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:08 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you at all - but it's the honesty of the government I was talking about! They already have a bad record in that area, and I'm cynical about the ability of cronies in power to hush things up and manipulate what we're allowed to see. Especially if each side has information about the other that said "other" would rather keep hidden - it concentrates the mind wonderfully. And I cannot believe there were no banker/politician bedfellows (I realise I'm not telling you anything you weren't already well aware of).

Still, the shite has so spectacularly hit the fan this time that maybe they'll have nowhere left unsplattered to hide... now that we're answerable to outside forces... with the world & the blogosphere watching...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

It really is quite simple. The banks lent a load of money they didn't have to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

Erm.... yes... I think we all realised that. For some time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:00 AM

"Still, the shite has so spectacularly hit the fan this time that maybe they'll have nowhere left unsplattered to hide..."
I share with you a deep mistrust of the government - and all politicians for that matter, but.....
If we are to continue supporting a democratic solution, the one straw we have left to cling to is that the Government has to face an election on a regular basis, and Ireland does have a reasonable track-record on referenda. Added to this is the fact that we have proportional representation here. I can still remember the creative use that Maggie made of the first-past-the-post system, when those of us who opposed her may as well not have had a vote.
None of this leaves the rest of us with very much, but it's better than nothing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM

Democratic solutions are clap trap, what is needed is direct action, and someone of the ilk of Tom Barry, kidnap one of the bond holders and hold them hostage

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Sean South
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM

Ireland does have a reasonable track-record on referenda.

Feck me, waht's this Carroll drinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 02:54 PM

"Feck me, waht's this Carroll drinking?"
Poitín occasionally - why?
I meant that Irish Governments hold more referenda than , say, the UK - I don't suggest they honour the result.
Personally, I tend to share GSS's view of parliamentary democracy as it stands. It has been abused by enough governments (of all shades) to prove that it doesn't work - but on the other hand, neither does the gun and the bomb - it took thirty years of the last century to convince me of that. Maybe you can show us otherwise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:26 PM

Tom Barry believed[this was in the 1930s]that if he had been allowed[ by the IRA council] to attack the north, at that time, he would have driven the British out, I believe he was right.
what is needed now is direct action.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:33 PM

Direct action......!

Suppose it upsets the delicate balance between the Shi-ites and the Sunnis!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:10 PM

"what is needed now is direct action."
Would be interested to learn what form this would take Cap'n.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:21 AM

Attack the North?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:34 AM

The North???

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:36 AM

"Attack the North? "
Why - the North is in just as big a mess as is the South - what a crass idea.
Cap'n - I'm sure you could come up with something more sensible than that - pretty sure our cat could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

When GSS says Tom Barry believed "in the 30s" he actually means 1938, just before the syart of WW2.
Russell and McGarrity (Natzi collaborators)cooperated in launching a coup within the IRA during that year, overthrowing its established leadership and committing the organisation to a bombing campaign in Britain. Tom Barry, one of the ousted leadership, claimed that money from the German-American Bund, the main Nazi organisation in the US, had been promised to fund the bombing campaign. In January 1939 that bombing campaign began but, despite leading to seven civilian deaths and the execution of two IRA men, never caused the political crisis the IRA hoped for. The international situation leading up to the outbreak of the Second World War preoccupied British opinion. During the months after the outbreak of war the IRA publicly declared that it was supporting neither 'king' nor 'dictator'.
However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain. In August the IRA confidently predicted that with the assistance of 'our victorious European allies' Ireland would 'achieve absolute independence within the next few months'.
http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

This would have been around the same time as The Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Lord Rothermere via his Daily Mail and a great many British public figures and politicians were lending their support to Herr Hitler (I seem to remember that Oswald Mosely had a knighthood conferred on him - correct me if I'm wrong). When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids".
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the present situation, neither does the pragmatic and very wrong "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - so what's your point?
Interesting that your information came from Ireland's leading history Journal though.
Now about your proposal for invading the North.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:43 AM

Any evidence for, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." ??

If you would care to check Jim, the proposal to attack the North was from Tom Barry circa 1936,and seemingly reiterated by GSS.
Not me.
My comment was a gasp of amazed disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:46 AM

Wouldn't be the first time a crumbling regime manufactured a war to divert people's attention from the state of the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:56 AM

No GSS said Direct Action....

You said Invade the North....

Perhaps he's going to climb the cenotaph or play his concerina as the ship goes down. If he comes up with an good idea for direct action. perhaps we could do it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:07 AM

GSS did call for direct action.
The rest of that post was all about attacking the North.
If we were not meant to link those ideas, it should have been made clearer.

Jim, as Brian Hanley said, same piece, " unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:23 AM

Still don't get your point - the IRA were made up of all shades of opinions - suggest you try Tim Pat Coogan's history - among others.
There is no more evidence that the IRA was a fascist organisation that there is that Britain was a Communist one for allying itself with Stalin and The Soviet Union to fight Germany - or do you claim that too?
War makes strange bedfellows.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM

I'm confused now. Does this mean the GSS is an IRA supporter or a Nazi supporter? Or a wannabe kidnapper? I blame those concertinas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:28 AM

I was just quoting an eminent Irish historian Jim.

Now, any evidence for, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." or did you just make that up?

And which minister?
Not he Minister of War obviously as he was a "Yid."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:47 AM

"And which minister?"
No idea - though the fact that the reports of the extermination camps were dismissed out of hand is common knowledge - read your history books (or borrow one.
I really don't understand your drift here - are you saying that the IRA was a Nazi organisation?
What has this got to do with the present situation - or is it yet another attempt on your part to show your dislike of the Irish
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

I've also been wondering what it has to do with the present situation - which was not imposed on us by outside parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

"No idea"

So your statement,"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." was just made up.
Why do you make up smears Jim?

The drift is not mine.
GSS brought up the issue of IRA strategy in the prewar era.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

TomBarry was against attacking the British mainland, HEwas in favour at that time of attacking the north.
I am not suggesting that is the solution now, as usual my words have been misinterpreted and twisted.
the sort of direct action that is needed now is for the dail AND SINEAD buildings to be blown up, preferably when the building is empty.
POSSIBLY Biffo OR ONE OF THE BOND HOLDERS SUCH AS SPIROS SHOULD BE KIDNAPPED AND HELD HOSTAGE.
The irish should leave the euro zone

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

A campaign of blowing up empty government buildings, empty housing estates, viaducts, railway bridges, so that they have to be rebuilt again, is all in the true spirit of capitalism, and would get the economy a kick start.
blowing up a few sewage treatment plants would be good too, destroy the new motorways., so they have to be rebuilt
refuse to pay back any interest, tell the swiss bankers to fuck themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

And what do you think that would solve Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:30 AM

That was cross posted, my reaction was to Dick's first post of two.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:25 AM

I am joking.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:27 AM

When you blow buildings up (even empty ones) people get hurt and traumatised terribly. It really doesn't help.

As for kidnapping millionaires - its the sort of thing the Karpis/Barker gang used to do in the 1930's. Messy business, not really for amateurs. you need a bigger place than Ireland to hide in.

Direct action is a good idea, but its a hard one to pull off.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:28 AM

"was just made up."
No it wasn't - it's a piece of infoprmation I have always known, as I have known that the British establishment - Mosely, Rothermere, The Windsors et al was riddled with Nazi sympathisers - none of whom you have challenged so I presume you accept.
Read Martin Walker's 'Holocaust' on the ambiguity of the British Government's approach to Germany - or look up Chamberlain's "peace in our time statement".
I ask again - because the British Government allied itself with The Soviet Union, does that make them communist?
And one more time - are you claiming that the IRA was a Nazi organisation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM

seriously, abolish the presidency, abolish the sinead ,reduce the number of tds, reduce biffos wage so it is comparable to camerons [a saving of 30 k], reduce dermot aherns pension by half... 100 k saved.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:43 AM

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

I say that you have made that up.
The only evidence you can put up is that you have always known it!

You should justify or retract.

Chamberlain's speech was long before the start of the extermination.

YOU should look up how many tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from the Nazis were welcomed into Britain.

Brian Hanley says that IRA was a Nazi organisation at that time.
I am not in a position to challenge his knowledge.
Are you?

The position of the IRA was anyway ignored by the tens of thousands of young Irish men who flocked to Britain to fight AGAINST the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

"I say that you have made that up."
You appear to be grasping at straws to make some political capital - please feel free, as you have little else in your favour.
Perhaps you might like to make some more from my mistake in naming Martin Walker as the authour of Holocaust - it was, of course Martin Gilbert - a slip on my part - Martin Walker was the author of the excellent 'The National Front'. It makes no difference whatever to the point I made - the British establisment, including members of the royal family was riddled with Nazi sympathisers.
"Chamberlain's speech was long before the start of the extermination."
His statement was a reflection of the ambiguity towards the rise of Fascism in Germany and the desire to appease - persecution of the Jews was already well under way and was known worldwide.
Whatever Brian Hanley says about the stance of the IRA towards Nazism, there are ten times as many to contradict him, but it is beside the point - I repeat WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH ANYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING IN IRELAND TODAY?
Dick is entitled to state his opinions on the IRA, on Tom Barry, on whoever; they are his opinions and certainly not mine 0- take it up with him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:33 AM

brian hanley can spout uninformed nonsense so what
the IRA was not a nazi organisation, the facists in ireland were called the blueshirts and were an off shoot of a minority of fine gael members, and an ex army organisation called the aca,army comrades organisation, the blueshirts and aca fought on the fascist side in spain, some meMbers of the ira fought on the anti Franco side.
Tom Barry OPPOSED the idea of the IRA cooperating with the nazis, he also opposed the IRA fighting on the anti franco side, as he considered it a distraction.
he also believed in irish neutrality during the emergency.
DIRECT ACTION IS AGOOD IDEA however I would not know where to start,   
interesting to see that PETER lABAN is still out there ready to jump on my back at any opportunity .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM

'Abolish the sinead'? Why? I think it's a lovely name.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:22 AM

Try this for size
http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm
A few random selections from an 'Independant' article - in the light of which it seems that my "wingeing Yid" quote is not only possible, but quite likely - and in fact, pretty tame in comparison to what was happening.
Jim Carroll

"A list of leading Nazi sympathisers in the British establishment at the outbreak of the Second World War has at last been put on public view.
The infamous Red Book, which reveals the membership of the upper-class Right Club, was written more than 60 years ago. It offers a chilling insight into the virulence of the anti-Semitism which was rife among peers, MPs, knights of the realm and other leading society figures at that time. Those listed include the 5th Duke of Westminster, the second Baron Redesdale (the father of the Mitford sisters) and the famous aviator Lord Sempill who was later suspected of spying for the Japanese. Others named are The Earl of Galloway, Lord Carnegie, Lord Ronald Graham and William Joyce, who later achieved notoriety as Lord Haw-Haw, broadcasting propaganda from Germany .
The Right Club was set up by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP, an outspoken anti-Semite, a few months before the war in May 1939 "to oppose and expose the activities of Organised Jewry". In meetings chaired by the Duke of Wellington it sought to influence government policy to stop war with Germany.
Ramsay drew up the secret membership list in his distinctive spiky handwriting. There are 135 names on the men's list and 100 on the women's. In the women's list is Anna Wolkoff, who was later accused of spying with American cypher clerk Tyler Kent. Also listed is Majorie Amor, one of several MI5 agents who had infiltrated the club.
Interleaved in the Red Book are a number of extraordinary documents relating to Ramsay and the Right Club. These included a manuscript of his vicious anti-semitic rhyme "Land of Dope and Jewry", hand-written by Ramsay on House of Commons notepaper the day after war was declared. There is also a letter from the man who was to become Lord Haw-Haw, apologising for being able to afford only five shillings (25p) as his membership fee.
The Who's Who of British Nazis ......The establishment figures who wanted to turn the UK into a fascist dictatorship
..... The Red Book is the membership list of the Right Club, a secret organisation founded in May 1939 by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP. Unlike the populist British Union of Fascists lead by the charismatic Sir Oswald Mosley, the Right Club was exclusive.
Its members were aristocrats and Members of Parliament, academics, civil servants, clerics and rich dilettantes. Some of the men had distinguished themselves in the 1914-18 war and saw themselves as patriots. But they were also virulent racists who supported Hitler's treatment of Germany's Jewish population. Many were Nazi sympathisers. From King Edward VIII downwards, there was a widespread view that only a powerful Germany could hold back the threat of Bolshevism, and that Britain should be supporting Hitler, not preparing to attack him.
......But if the badge seems mildly comic now, the vehemence with which these establishment figures hated Jews was chilling. A "hymn" to the tune of "Land of Hope and Glory", entered in the book in Ramsay's handwriting and in a printed version for public distribution, reads:

Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Running my finger down the list, written with a fountain pen in Ramsay's hand, the names still resonate: Arthur Wellesley the 5th Duke of Wellington, the Second Baron Redesdale, The Earl of Galloway, Lord Ronald Graham, Princess Blucher, Sir Ernest Bennett, Prince Turka Galitzine and Britain's most notorious Second World War traitor, William Joyce, later known as Lord Haw-Haw as he broadcast propaganda from Germany. The book also lists donations. Sir Alexander Walker, then the head of the Johnnie Walker whisky dynasty, is shown to have donated the princely sum of £100.
Another well known, anti-Semite member was A K Chesterton, a First World War military hero. Commander E H Cole was the Chancellor of the White Knights, a British version of the Ku Klux Klan. MPs included Sir James Edmondson, Colonel Charles I Kerr and John M'Kie."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM

Oswald Mosleys right hand man..was R Bellamy.
abolish ..the sinead because it is an unecessary expense, if my suggestions were taken up a lot of money would be saved, and it would not be necessary to cut 8 euros off the job seekers allowance, and off widows pensions

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM

I think you're missing the point there, dick.

I assume the remark was to point out Sinéad being a nice name. No doubt you meant Seanad Éireann, and you always jumping it to correct people's spelling and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:26 PM

Jim,
"Whatever Brian Hanley says about the stance of the IRA towards Nazism, there are ten times as many to contradict him"

No there are not.
Or can you produce any?
He is the author of many books, and lectures on Irish History at the University of Ireland.
The piece I linked to gives all the impeccable sourcesfor what he states.

I am not clutching at straws when I say i do not believe your "quote"
It is simply not believable, and you admit you have not actually quoted anything but your own imagination.
So why the quotes??!?

GSS,
"Tom Barry OPPOSED the idea of the IRA cooperating with the nazis,"
Wiki says that he went to Germany to seek support in January 1937.
Is that false?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM

"It is simply not believable, and you admit you have not actually quoted anything but your own imagination."
Not believeable?
You've seen he list, you've had the evidence - you could even sing the song.


Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Now go **** yourself you stupid boy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

wiki is fucking wrong, go read some biographies of Tom Barry,
HE WENT TO GERMANY once,and i quote...primarily to find out and if at all, the nazis had penetrated the IRA because he[BARRY] was convinced that the bombing plan[ which BARRYopposed]of Britain was German inspired and financed.
that is a quote from Tom Barry freedom fighter by Meda Ryan.
Tom Barry fought in the first world war for England, he had no sympathies with Nazi Germany, it was his military training that made him so successful as a leader of geurilla warfare.
Keithyou are misinformed and dont know what yiou are talking abou

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:36 PM

Thanks GSS.
I do not know much about Barry, and so asked you to verify the Wiki statement.
This is from a Sinn Fein site.
Barry would assert in later life that he opposed both the 1930s bombing campaign in England and IRA contacts with Nazi Germany. In fact in January 1937 he had taken a trip to Germany seeking to find out the extent of German infiltration of the IRA. German support was assured to him subject to the condition that the IRA limited its actions to British military installations once war was declared. Financing was to be arranged through Clann na Gael in the USA.
http://www.ballincolligsinnfein.com/p/tom-barry_3898.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM

"Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! "
You really are racking up your heroes aren't you - first you say that you wish the Irish would go home, then you describe antagonistic bloody sectarian marches as a harmless day out, now you are acting as an apologist for English fascist anti- Semites.
You have the facts about the great and the good fascists who supported Hitler, you've got an example of their bilious filth, which you describe as a silly song - this in the knowledge that the man who wrote it aligned himself with the same people who sent six millon Jews to the gas chambers. The song calls for the hanging of Jews, for god's sake.
You really are a piece of work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:14 PM

" first you say that you wish the Irish would go home,"
I refute that (yet again!).
It is a lie.
"then you describe antagonistic bloody sectarian marches as a harmless day out,"
I refute that.
It is a lie.
"now you are acting as an apologist for English fascist anti- Semites."
A new and vicious lie.

There are a few scum in every nation.
The people of this one took in tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from the Nazis, declared war on those Nazis and, after the fall of France, chose to stand alone against them, though defeat seemed inevitable and the destruction of our ancient towns and cities assured along with the death of hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk.
Only the Commonwealth and ordinary Irish people stood with us.
The IRA sided with Hitler.

Now Jim, you said,
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:24 PM

The IRA sided with Hitler.
can you prove this

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:28 PM

Well my Dad fought in Guards armoured Division of the Irish guards in the war. he reckoned none of the blokes from Ireland who were serving alongside him were sent home on leave in their unforms, cos it wasn't thought safe.

I suppose the army was frightened of the IRA assasinating them.

not exactly anti-Hitler then.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:44 AM

GSS, this is by a leading authority on Irish History.
The sources are actual Republican publications.
It was published in what Jim acknowledges to be Ireland's leading History journal.
Those who see the IRA through rose tinted glass prepare to be shocked.
Especially on the subject of Jew Cleansing.


Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the 'respect and esteem' in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.

The above information comes not from one of Russell's many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin's Fairview Park and concluded that he was a 'worthy successor to Tone and Casement'. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations.



However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain.

The IRA's statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting 'German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing'. These papers also noted how the IRA and their 'strange bedfellow General O'Duffy' were lauding as 'liberators' powers that held 'Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia' in subjection.

War News, the IRA's main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 02:56 AM

I think when Duke started this discussion by asking the question 'Ireland - what happened' he wasn't particularly thinking of what happened during World War 2. Duke doesn't appear to have re-visitied this thread. Can't say I blame him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 03:47 AM

"Who was it?"
Take your pick Keith - it could have been anybody named in the above Independent article which you haven't commented on except to trivialise the fact that many leading British figures, on the eve of the war had formed a Pro-fascist, anti Semitic organisation to support Hitler - you have neutralised this fact to the level of a sit-com. You haven't yet used the term 'Holo-hoax' yet, but it's not far away.
You seem to get off on other people's misery and suffering, Irish, Palestinian, now Jews - yet seem to have problems emerging from your own political closet.
You really are a right-wing scumbag without the bottle to put your own views on the line - I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find something to cut-n-paste which sums you up.
I'm off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:08 AM

Jim, if Britain had not been prepared to fight on alone against the Nazis, they would have been able to complete their genocide of European Jews, to the applause of the IRA.
I am proud of that, as I am proud that Britain was a refuge for tens of thousands of Jewish refugees.
To brand me as a holocaust denier is the most wicked lie you have yet told about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:11 AM

Chris B, you are right.
I do not know why Jim thought it relevant to bring in Britain's handling of Irish independence 90 years ago, but if you do not challenge his tosh he takes it that you have accepted the truth of it.
Similarly when GSS brought in pre war IRA strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:38 AM

'I am proud of that, as I am proud that Britain was a refuge for tens of thousands of Jewish refugees'

In fairness, if you want to bring this up, Britain imposed strict regulations and denied large numbers of Jewish refugees entry during the second half of the 1930s and left them in dire straits. S o be careful what you're proud of.

This is not the thread to go into that though.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

Meanwhile, on topic, Ireland's credit rating rated lowered further

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:49 AM

Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Beyond that the Kindertransport, an effort on the eve of war to transport Jewish children (their parents were not given visas) from Germany to Britain. Around 10,000 children were saved by the Kindertransport.

That is 100 000 Jewish refugees from the Nazis welcomed into Britain.
Which country did more Peter?
I am still proud of what my country did in those dark days.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:22 AM

This seems to cover the various numbers accurately.

Where Jewish refugees are concerned at that period, I don't think there's much any country has reason to be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:34 AM

My figures stand Peter.
No country did more.
100 000 saved, and defying the Nazis alone in 1940.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:47 AM

Well I'm sure both countries have a lot to be proud of, which really makes it doubly infuriating that we've both ended up in the shit economically.

In Ireland, you reckon you've lent money to builders who can't sell their houses. In England, it turns out we've been lending money to Russian gangsters who never even built any houses.

Back in the 1980's, I went to my bank to ask them to borrow a few hundred quid to get the tax people off my back. the manager wanted to know how much I earned a month. I explained I was a musician and some months I did quite well and some months I didn't make anything much. Blank incomprehension.

I ended up having to borrow the money from my father in law.

These buggers in banks never seem to get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:11 AM

A bit different here, they kept pushing €20K pre-approved loans at us. Was never tempted to use them though.

Goes a bit towards explaining the amount of bad debt the banks are now stuck with. The Boom was all funny money, borrowings going around.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:18 AM

Funny but intersting how threads drift.


How about Ireland offering all the empty buildings to modern refugees from tyranny and persecution so that history will judge the Irish as kindly as the British. They could compensate for all those young irish people who are emigrating for work.


By the way was Frank Ryan in Germany to further the attack on England? He was a comrade of my dad's in Spain but I can find no conclusive evidence one way or the other..Very confused times.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 09:48 AM

I'm assuming your proposal about housing refugees was tongue-in cheek. Because of course you will have asked yourself what they are all going to live on. No jobs, no state money to support them with, health and social services slashed by a government that can't even look after its own. Why do you think the young & able are leaving in the first place? But then, you knew that, didn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:06 AM

keith a, I prefer to listen to what Barry actually said, rather than relying on a certain slant from a biased historian.
Barry actually led several battles against the blue shirts who were fascists and nazi sympathisers.
it is extremeely unlikely that frank ryan supported nazi germany, in view of the fact he fought the fascists in spain, there is no evidenc e to support the idea that Ryan supported nazi germany.
keith willyou stop making statements that cant be baxcked up

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:52 AM

Keith, I don't agree that the circumstances surrounding the beginnings of Irish 'Independence' are irrelevant.

That independence (such as it was) developed gradually between the election of the first Dail in 1919, through the treaty and civil war in 1922-3, the formation of Fianna Fail and the abolition of the Oath of Allegiance in 1937 through the period of wartime neutrality and the eventual departure of the 26 counties from the Commonwealth in 1948 following John A Costello's decision to cut the last remaining ties with the British Crown (Following that decision King George VI wrote a letter to Costello wishing the Republic well for the future and thanking Irish people for their contribution to the war against Nazi Germany).

During that period a corrupt, nominally nationalist political class and a confessional state developed in the 26 counties at the same time as an equally corrupt loyalist state developed in the North. Viewed in that context, the history of Ireland over the last 90 years can be viewed as the story of two failed experiments: partition and 26-county 'Independence'.

I think the word I'm looking for is 'Discuss'. Probably a waste of breath, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:45 AM

it would be better to blow the empty buildings up, employ people on changing the empty concrete jungles back to farm land

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Bloody hell, Dick. What is it with you and blowing things up?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:06 PM

Chris, you have a point.

GSS,
"keith willyou stop making statements that cant be baxcked up "

My statements were backed up by Brian Hanley, Professor of Irish History at The University of Ireland, in a piece published in THE leading journal of Irish History in the world.

What are your qualifications for rubbishing all that, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

Now I'm really worried....

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM

Perhaps if you got some Asians living in the houses with a bit of business know how, they could get the economy working again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM

Where are the jobs to support them? This trouble was not caused by lack of business know-how. It happened because of dishonesty, greed and cronyism - perpetrated by those with the large-scale powers to pull it off. It's not a matter of "thinking up" a solution, any more than you can think your way around the law of gravity. It's already happened.

Now we're stuck with the consequences, and they're going to take hard cash, not know-how, to fix. Also time. Neither of those can be thought up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM

I am rubbishing your remarks about the IRA supporting nazi germany, i8 have given you examples of two prominent members of the ira one who actively was against such a policy and the second who was very unlikely to do so because he had fought against fascists, and furhermore no evidence exists against him.
i am not interested in the opinions of BRIAN HANLEY, to quote Henry Ford, history is bunk, i am more interested in the statements of those who were there... like Tom Barry.
now, Keith, would you ever go and spout your imperialistic clap trap elsewhere

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

GSS, if Hitler were able to write memoirs, we would read that he never supported the Nazis either.
Hanley used as sources actual Republican publications like War News and The United Irishman.
He gives the dates.
You can read it for yourself.

I do share your contempt for people who post unsubstatiated statements.
Jim posted this.
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

He had "no idea" who this minister was, and could not even remember where he heard the story, but he still posted it in quotes.
Did you miss that, Dick ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:03 PM

Bonnie of course it was a bit of irony.

But here in Sheffield we have loads of speculative flats that are not ocupied and it has been seriously suggested they be taken over for social housing for pople who often have no chance of a job or a home.

When people start pissing in the lifts like in the 60s schemes they can also be blown up ( the flats that is !)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:58 PM

you have some nerve comparing Hitler to Tom Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:38 AM

No, I was just making a point about objectivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:55 AM

"He had "no idea" who this minister was,"
You still appear to be grasping at the fact that I am unable to name the MP I believe made the "whineing Yid" statement, and descrivbe it as illogical.
I grew up in the knowledge that leading members of the British establishment were anti-semitic, supported the Nazi's persecution of the Jews at the time when Germany was building up to the gehettoisation, imprisonment, dispossession and eventually, the extermination of the Jewish people (you have compared the behavior of these anti-Semites to a televesion sit-com).
Can you explain why what I described could not have happened in the light of the following, from the Independant article.   
"The Right Club was set up by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP
It offers a chilling insight into the virulence of the anti-Semitism which was rife among peers, MPs, knights of the realm and other leading society figures at that time." - PLEASE NOTE THE REFERENCES TO MP'S
Perhaps you would like to suggest that the writer of the article was lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

And if you have any doubt about 'Ministers' being involves, I suggest you read the article in full
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:59 AM

I did not describe "the fact that I am unable to name the MP I believe made the "whineing Yid" statement," as illogical.
I said it was an unsubstantiated statement, which it is.

If you had said "I have a possibly true, vague memory that...." I would have no cause for complaint.
But you put it in quotes, as a statement of fact, which it is not.
That was dishonest.

You must have tried very hard now to find evidence for it.
I have too.
There isn't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM

You really are making a meal of this in defence of British fascism Keith
"I did not describe........ as illogical"
Very true - you said "It is simply not believable," - whence the difference?
You made great play of not being anti Semitic, yet your behaviour here says otherwise.
1. You trivialise anti- Semitism at a time when pogroms, persecution, beatings, dehumanising, ghetoising the German Jewish population was well underway and moving towards the setting up of the death camps, with the active support of leading members of the Brithish establishment, including members of the Royal family; YOU COMPARE THIS TO DAD'S ARMY.
2. You support with your silence the report on British Facism in support of Nazi Germany (do you accept the Independant report - we still don't know?)
3. You divert our attention by taking up something that is in fact totally unimportant - what does it matter who said it?
If the story is apocrypal, which I very much doubt as I have heard it from numerous people down the years who would have been alive at the time ot the event, why on earth does it matter - IT REFLECTS PERFECTLY THE BEHAVIOUR OF MANY ESTABLISHMENT FIGURES - INCLUDING THE WINDSORS - AT THE TIME - tell us it does not.
In the long run who gives a toss - anti-Semitism was just another episode of Dad's Army, or 'Allo, Allo anyway, according to you.
As far as the IRA's links with the Nazis is concerned; there is no suggestion that any such link was anything more than pragmatism in any of the history books, Tim Pat Coogan, Robert Kee, J. Bowyer Bell. The only link with fascism covered in any of these is through O'Duffy's Blueshirts, treated largely as a crank splinter-group.
It was the same pragmatism that brought about Lenin's entering revolutionary Russia in 1917 on a sealed train provided by the Germans, or Britain's embracing Stalinist Russia ("Good old Uncle Joe" was the slogan at the time), or the US taking Von Braun and his team into their rocket building project - or, for that matter, co-operated with some of the world's greatest monsters, Marshal Kee, Papa Doc, General Pinochet.
Anyway, it was only a sit-com, so what does it matter?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM

More dishonesty.
I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!!
I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence.
Of course I know about a few fascists and anti semites in Britain.
I have discussed them on this forum.
Name a country that never had any.
They were of so little influence here that we took in a hundred thousand Jewish refugees, and went to war with Hitler.
Did you not know that?

And the vast majorty of Irish people supported us in that fight.
Meanwhile the IRA connived to bring the German Stormtroopers and SS into Ireland, and to guide German bombers to their targets.
They boasted of it in their publications, and supported "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Here is proof, again.
http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:29 PM

"I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!!"
No - you took the theme tune of Dad's Army and compared it with the anti- Semitic song written by a British MP - whence the difference?
"finding a song is not evidence."
The song was part of a long article on British facism at the beginning of WW2 - evidence enough that my anecdote was , far from being "not believeable" (quote) but highly likely
"Name a country that never had any."
We are not talking "a few fascists" - we are talking leading members of the British establishment, including an ex-King of England.
"......and went to war with Hitler.
Did you not know that?"
The British Prime Minister brought back a document of appeasement to try and prevent Britain going to war, despite the behavior of Germany both at home and abroad - did you not know that?
What the IRA did remains to be debated; I hold no brief for them whatever, but whatever they did, they were well matched by actions of members of the establishment in Britain.
Here is the proof again, just in case you feel you would like to comment on it http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:52 PM

"The British Prime Minister brought back a document of appeasement to try and prevent Britain going to war, despite the behavior of Germany both at home and abroad"

This was just 20 years after the Great War that left Britain bankrupt and exhausted.
Years of disarmament meant we were ill prepared for war in 1938.
A massive rearmament programme begun.
A year later the same Prime Minister declared war on Hitler, not the other way around.
You are trying to make Britain sound like a nation of fascists.
The few fascist had no influence on events.

An anti fascist like you must be full of admiration for what Britain did then.
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:02 PM

heres to the boys of kilmichael so gallant so noble so true ,who put up the green flag of erin in place of the red white and blue.
unfortunately    fianna fail, bertie ahern and biffo, sold the hard fought independence for short term european silver and encouraged an attitude of corruption, brown envelopes, back handers and a worshipping of mamman

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM

I have not read this whole thread, but could there be some sort of link with the child abuse scandals? I think EU money was paid to victims and not direct Irish money, but it was over a billion I believe..and are there non-monetary links, traits or whatever..I don't know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: framus
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

"Oh what a tangled thread we weave" Yes, we're a long way from Duke's original posit, and if this thread had any real clout the country should by now be a smouldering mass of destroyed government offices, bridges, empty buildings &c &c. Possibly these would be diligently being reconstructed by the Plain People of Ireland, aided by immigrants, Jews and the occasional frustrated philosopher and Scottish economist. We would be ruled (or not) by a supreme legislator called Sinead Eirann and entertained by satirical song writing and anti-semitic deceased British politicians.
Whilst awaiting the return of the rubbled edifices to agriculture,(by aforementioned Plain People, &c) all available banjo players, philosophers and poets/satirical songwriters (living or dead) will be re-educating the non banjo players, racists and general bletherers to manufacture those big, brown things for export as proposed by Flann O'Brien many years ago to the gombeens across the water, and any Johnnie foreigner who wants an Irish cow.
Meanwhile, we intellectuals in Mudcat will re-form the Miles na cGopaleen Bureau, and invent ourselves out of the fiscal slough of despond.
At the same time, fierce legions of Leprauhauns, all of whom can trace their ancestry to at least one relation of Brian Boru, will have re-taken the North (The NORTH!) and driven the Sassenach back home (to buy our cows), and harmony will have been restored. WE can then get back to drinking porter (a pint of plain is yer only man) and fighting one another.
So there!
Davy

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:51 PM

"This was just 20 years after the Great War that left Britain bankrupt and exhausted."
As it did Germany, but they had no problems declaring war.
"You are trying to make Britain sound like a nation of fascists."
No more than you are trying to make Ireland sound like a nation of fascists - I am pointing out the ambiguity of Britain towards fascism.
My father went to Spain to fight fascism in 1937 - Britain was so 'anti-Fascist that they labelled him a "premature anti-Fascist" and, on his return entered him on their secret service files and had him blacklisted from his job, forcing him to leave home to seek work - now tell me again about the anti-fascist British Govenment I should be so proud of!
Britain might have prevented, or at the very least, slowed down the rise of Nazi Germany had they intervened in Spain - instead, they stood by silently while the newly created Luftwaffe practiced their bombing skills on the people of Madrid and Guernica.
Germany left Britain with no alternative but to go to war.
"The few fascist had no influence on events."
Nor did the tiny handful of Irishmen who became fascists.
And still you continue to support British fascism with your refusal to comment on the Independant article, or withdraw, or even acknowlege your stomach heaving, anti-Semitic comparison of the behaviour of the fascists named in that article with a sit com.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:53 PM

Begob, I think you're right. Here's me bus. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM

My post was responding to Framus. Crossposted with Jim's.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM

You are right that Germany worked a miracle of rearmament.
Hitler persuaded his people to go without butter so they could have guns.
Do you deny that they were militarily much stronger than Britain and France?
Would you have preferred Britain decalred war earlier and lost?

"No more than you are trying to make Ireland sound like a nation of fascists "
Dishonest.
I kept saying that the overwhelming majority of Irish people supported our fight.

And, we could have just let them have Poland.
Some did argue for that.
They got short shrift.
But you do not admire Britain's stance?
Why not Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:00 AM

I do not doubt that you heard your apocryphal story (that you posted as fact!) many times.
It is Irish Republican, anti British, made up propaganda.

I ask again, would you prefer the war came earlier and we lost?
We so nearly lost as it was.
In 1940 our army was defeated, we could not prevent the destruction of our cities, and our vital Merchant Marine all but wiped out.
Everyone from Churchill down expected invasion and defeat.
But we chose to fight on.

A true anti fascist would be filled with gratitude and admiration.
Where is yours Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:50 AM

Once again you attempt to cover up your gaffs by taking the subject up yet another cul-de-sac - have a good trip.
In the period immediately preceeding WW2 Britain's attitude to the rise of Nazism was ambivilent, to say the least. It maintained friendly diplomatic relations with Germany, despite the rise of anti-Semitism, Kristelnacht, the pogroms, et al. It did nothing about the rise of fascism in Italy, the fascist military coup Spain ("I had a very friendly and pleasant talk, (with Hitler) on Spain, where he too said he had never had any territorial ambitions" - Nevil Chamberlain, Autumn, 1938) or the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the annexation of Austria, Bohemia and Moravia...... Britain was quite prepared to see the spread of fascism - as long as it didn't affect Britain.
Britain went into the war when it had no other alternative, and when it did, it was as a defence measure, not as a fight against fascism (unlike the Spanish Civil War - when the rise of fascism could have been halted).
You still refuse to comment on the presence of pro-Nazis in the British Establisment, so I presume they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com - Silence is Eloquent, as the song should have said.
The point of all this is the supposed connection between Nazism and The IRA - no more evident there than in Britain.
This unbelieveably irrelevant thread drift came about with Dick's somewhat off the wall comments about Tom Barry and the IRA - personally, I don't take Dick's remarks seriously; I'm not sure even he believes them and is not acting the Devil's Advocate - you on the other hand appear to be deadly serious in your flag-waving defence of a system in meltdown.
I mistrust all forms of nationalism, British, Irish, German.... whatever, but I do believe that in the long term the centuries-old Irish Question has to be solved if Ireland is to have a peaceful and prosporous future, and that is the only relevance this thread-drift has to the subject in hand.
So unless you have anything new to add to the discussion - let's leave it there and let people get on with what this thread was started to discuss, the present economic crisis.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:23 AM

Do not complain about thread drift Jim.
You brought the 90 year old Irish Independance issue to this debate.
Serious or not, Dick's post needed to be challenged, and you did challenge it.

Britain did not involve itself in Spain's civil war. Only Germany did.
Britain was not at all ambivalent to the rise of Fascism, despite the diplomatic niceties.
We were just unable to do anything about it, and even in 1939 were still dangerously weak.

"Britain went into the war when it had no other alternative"
FALSE

"and when it did, it was as a defence measure"
FALSE

"You still refuse to comment on the presence of pro-Nazis in the British Establisment"
I have debated this before. I know a few barmy aristocrats and one pathetic ex king were fascist sympathisers. Every country had them.

"they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com -"
FILTHY LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:51 AM

"they have your blessing, and you still appear to regard anti-Semitism as little more than a sit-com -"
"Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"
Now put up or piss off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:25 AM

No - on second thoughts - put up AND piss of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:24 AM

Oh - and 200 and you blew it!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:04 AM

Can we expect Ireland to come out of all this and just go back to 'business as usual' as UK seems to expect and hope, or do we all need to seek another way that aims for sustainable development and a serious attempt to arrest climate change?.


Despite all the local cold spots global mean temperature is increasing all the time.

Only a unified European approach can help our countries to do this so the old divisions must be healed and truth and reconciliation will have to be part of that. So all these issues are linked.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:28 AM

I think it will come out of it in time - and I mean a lot of time, measurable in years, maybe even a decade - but it will surely never go back to the crazy bling years, nor should it. It's a good question as to what "business as usual" even is.

When I moved here in 1991 it was in the midst of a depression, with dole queues around the block. (I hadn't realised how dire the situation was, and only a government-funded FÁS job and later my specialised skills as a harp teacher saved me.) Then the economy started to pick up, largely because of easy credit, and things got silly - you could see it happening all around you. People here weren't used to having plenty of "money" and it just went wild (prices did too).

Now the inevitable collapse has come, as it was always going to, and I can't see us ever going back to the Celtic [Paper] Tiger years because that situation is unsustainable by its very nature. Some kind of "normality" will eventually emerge as things level out, but it's hard to tell exactly what form that will take because we have come through so many contrasts in such a short time. Meanwhile, we're left with huge fallout - not only economic austerity but emigration of youth/talent/brains and truly heartbreaking landscape pollution.

I could not agree more heartily with your last three sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:49 AM

Keith and Jim....?

Cards on the table......do you enjoy this stuff (on the quiet)?

Theres lots of different people in Ireland and england, and pretty obviously, there were all kinds of shades of opinion. I mean, really who the fuck knows what was going on in the heads of people eighty years ago.

However if you're enjoying yourselves, let me be the very last one to interrupt. Is this the foreplay, or the main event in your relationship?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:59 AM

Alan
No - I don't enjoy it - it is yet another pointless exercise in tail-chasing which ***** up threads, usually about something I care about deeply.
Each time I promise myself I won't do it again - New Year's coming up - maybe this time.
Apologies to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:11 AM

Alan, my cards on the table.
When Jim makes ludicrous posts, like blaming the current crisis on Britain's handling of Irish independence, or saying that Britain was pro fascist during WW2, I can not resist challenging.
I do not enjoy the hurtful lies he tells about me, but he does that for want of argument, and I do then enjoy exposing that.

Jim,
You posted an anti semetic song as evidence of Britains pro fascism.
I gave an anti fascist song to show that it was not evidence.

Your song was written by a known anti semite, so no surprise there.
There is no evidence that any other person in the world ever sung it.
Has anyone even heard of it before.
My anti fascist song was a popular hit, along with Hang Out the Washing On The Siegfried Line, White Cliffs Of Dover, We'll Meet Again, and all the other pro war songs.

You know I am not anti semite because I defended Israel against you in long threads. Just a convenient lie to discredit me.
Your anti Israel stuff was so bitter that others called you anti semite.
I did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:36 AM

This squabble really has nothing to do with the current situation in Ireland. Can it please be taken to another thread, so those who want to can follow it and the rest of us can get a break from it? Please?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:55 AM

Honestly Bonnie - this is dead interesting from an outsiders point of view.

There used to be this guy on mudcat - his handle was Divis Sweeney. Pro IRA, but helluva nice guy. He used to think I was a pacifist (which I was, compared to him!)

Anyway him and Keith usd to go at it hammer and tongues, like Keith and Jim just did.

I used to get these anguished pms and e-mails from Divis - Oh God!Keith is winding me up so-oo much! Anyway in the fullness of time Divis buggered off to spend his time more fruitfully.

I said to Keith - now look what you've done!

Keith wrote back, You got it wrong Al! Divis is my mate, we talk about all sorts of things in a very friendly way...
(This may not be precise quotations Keith - I'm just trying to give a flavour of it)

Could it be - you're misinterpreting the signs Keith - like Ralph McTell's parrot? (the parrot thinks Ralph is sending love messages when he keeps repeating words, trying to teach it to speak)

What I mean is Jim (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't sending love messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:58 AM

Whatever - just take it somewhere else! It may be dead interesting to you but it's also dead distracting from the subject of this particular thread. As I said, those who want to can still follow it...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

Agree absolutely Bonnie - everything that's to be said on the subject has been said as far as I'm concerned; people can make up their own minds.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:04 AM

OK, until your next blooper.
(That is true about Divis and me)

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:37 AM

This is a guy on youtube has got it right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY6kXhQDQo

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

"This is a guy on youtube has got it right."
That says all that needs to be said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM

Sorry Jim, I had a mobile at my ear when I wrote that. Nice to see not all freestaters are thick !

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:59 PM

Alan, I just realised who you are.
It was your dad's unit that reminded me.
Hope your health is better.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

Bonnie when I said you were talking bollocks, I meant only in a good way. Because you are a nice lady and a great musician and i love and respect you.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for that, Al, I appreciate it...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

Tom Barry like many others risked his life fighting for independence, I am certain that the Ireland they envisaged that they were fighting towards, was not the country we have right now .
A country filed with cute hoors, who seem to be only concerned with retiring with a fat pension.
we have witnessed a series of monumental cock ups, and displays of incompetence ranging from billions wasted on useless electoral voting machines to the unbelievable bailing out of extremely wealthy bond holders in anglo irish bank .
To quote Cromwell[ You have shat here to long be gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

"Whatever - just take it somewhere else! It may be dead interesting to you but it's also dead distracting from the subject of this particular thread. As I said, those who want to can still follow it... "

Well said Bonnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:42 AM

that should read, you have shat here too long , be gone

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

I remember when I was a kid growing up in Whitton there were some old prefab sheds standing by some allotments at the bottom of the road. They were put up after the war as emergency low-cost housing and were only expected to last a few years - yet there they were, 20 years later, still in use.

It strikes me that the Irish state is a bit like that - it was only designed to be a stop-gap measure pending a permanent settlement of the National question (at least, that was how it was sold). It was set up with a legislative system based on the Westminster model partly, in my view, in order to be able to accommodate the North when the Protestant majority 'saw sense' and decided they wanted to be part of a united Ireland after all.

Well, that never happened and in the 26 counties, republicanism became superseded within the political establishment (particularly Fianna Fail) by 26-county nationalism and a political machine that in fact had a vested interest in partition - unification would have threatened their own political dominance within the Catholic state.

Now the whole constitutional basis of the 26-county state has collapsed with the end of Irish sovereignty. Republicanism is potentially in crisis as well since there appears now to be no Republic to fight for.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:32 AM

Let's see how (read if) the recovery measures work out (or don't) first. This is primarily a financial issue, not a nationalistic one, and it would have been largely avoidable with some foresight and precautionary measures by the government. The country is a vastly different place from what it was in the 1920's: I don't know how many here would want to risk becoming an independent entity right now, or how - realistically - we'd cope.

One big difference in the times is that we are now part of Europe and all share a common currency. For the euro's sake, the EC needs for Ireland not to fail economically. Just have to wait and see, though it's going to be a long haul.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

we could still be part of europe and not have the euro, look at the uk, or we could be similiar to norway with their own currency but not part of europe but with similiar trade and other agreements

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM

Good point, Dick. But we'd still have to make a go of it on the trading markets. Not sure we have the resources to do that. I'm not saying Yea or Nay, however. But I don't feel optimistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:18 AM

I agree up to a point, Bonnie, but I also think that once you look past the immediate fiscal crisis there are longer-term, more fundamental issues of how the country is governed. This isn't particularly a party issue. It's more to do with the mechanisms of government itself. Economically, the measures proposed seem to me to be inevitably deflationary to the extent that even if the deficit is reduced to the proportions the IMF wants, then once that happens the country will be so impoverished that it won't be able to begin developing again. In the meantime many of the best and brightest young minds will once again be lost. I don't have any more answers than anyone else but the idea of the government of the country carrying on as normal as per the current system when (or if) the current fiscal crisis is 'resolved' seems unlikely to me. I think what with the financial crisis, the collapse of trust in politicians and political institutions and (let's not forget) the massive psychological and moral trauma highlighted by the Ryan report last year then for me, all the assumptions about what sort of country and society Ireland is and has been have been called into question. I think it may be a while before we see anything resembling answers emerging but for me, a decentralised, federal system of government is at least worth looking at. People have seen how a centralised, Dublin-based state has failed. This presents as much of an opportunity as a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

Excellent post, Chris. Points to ponder. The only thing I feel sure about is that an honest government, which thinks of the welfare of its citizens and not just about lining its own and its allies' pockets, would be a good start - whoever it turns out to be, in whatever form it takes. You're right, public morale & confidence are sub-zero... as we pray we don't get ill or injured... and wave goodbye to the young...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:57 AM

one point about not belonging to the euro,it allows the currency to be devalued.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM

I think it was in 2008 the Irish Government devised a Bank Deposit Guarantee Scheme (can't remember the exact title), to assure the "Plain People of Ireland" that their savings were safe, presumably to forestall a run on the banks. Is this still valid, or are there any limits and conditions? Asking from Scotland, but with connections in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:30 PM

That guarantee expired in September, but there's supposed to be some other not-very-clearly-specified security measure in place. They're meant to be nationalising AIB and 85% of Bank of Ireland, and Anglo already is - this move is described as making the deposits "doubly secure", but I'm not sure who's doing the describing, or whom to believe, so I can't say any more. Your guess is as good as mine as to what that actually means. I'm hazy on the situation and don't want to mislead either you or myself, but there is some Google-able info if you do some searches. (David McWilliams is a good commentator, though I don't know if he's written about this - not checked specifically.)

We're due a general election soon, which could change things. The only good thought is that the government is in such deep shit now - and being watched so closely - that I don't think they're dare lie about it. They're answerable to Europe, who has a vested interest in our economy not collapsing and is monitoring things. But otherwise, dunno.

Anybody else know any more? Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:07 PM

"They're meant to be nationalising AIB"
Not quite nationalising Bonnie, just having a greater say - it remains to be seen whether this will just be - as swimming in Morcambe Bay, going through the motions.
Interesting article in the Irish Times this morning discussing how answerable to the law big buisness is compared to the rest of us; the heading says it all - "Two-teir System Puts Corporate Criminals Above The Law".
What did the Duke say "Things have got to change in order to remain the same".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:25 PM

Austerity programs don't work. When a country is economically depressed, it needs the revitalization of monetary stimulus for its people. The government should provide jobs.
The regulatory agencies should do their job protecting them from corporate crooks.

The world is buying into the myths that deprivation saves money. Ireland is caught up in that myth.

More money for schools, hospitals, work, work training, and very important, the cultural arts which unite the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:15 PM

well said Frank, the politicians do not seem to understand how to make capatalism work,to boost the economy employing people on public works schemes is essential, enabling people to have money to buy goods, thus boosting production. what is happening now in ireland wil only deepen the recession, ireland is governed by clowns crooks and ignoramuses

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:40 AM

When the train hits the buffers we start talking about spending our way out. The New Deal model would leave us in hock to some country or power group.

If we ( in UK and Ireland) had put our money and energy into green technologies and job creation a lot earlier we might not have gone on the bonanza route and not be in the shit we are now..
Now I see that China is the major producer and exporter of photovoltaic cells

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Brian May
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 07:37 AM

A child was heard to say: 'The Emperor hasn't got any clothes on'.

The rest is history - for which the rest of us 'not-so-greedy-bastards' will have to pay . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:33 AM

Thanks, Bonnie Shaljean and Jim Carroll. I'd had D. McW recommended to me the last time I was in Donegal, a book "The Pope's Children" concerning those born since ?1980, and I understand that he and Eddie Hobbes are highly regarded (by some); also used to have Vincent Browne on RTE Radio, but no longer. And of course I know how keenly everyone's awaiting the General Election, apart from the TDs; especially Sinn Fein, if Pearse Docherty's recent win in Donegal is a good indicator.

Concerning the way some are clearly above the law, wasn't it Swift who compared it to a Spider's Web, "which traps the little Flies, though the great Moths break through..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 06:51 AM

A few thoughts:

I think in any country – indeed, in any organized human activity – the only thing that keeps people in charge 'honest' is the knowledge that they will be held to account. People in positions of power or authority inevitably become complacent and blinkered at best or corrupt and dishonest at worst if there is no effective mechanism by which they can be held responsible for their actions. The Catholic Church is a prime example.

One of the problems in both Ireland and Britain is that no-one believes that those responsible for the corruption and perversion of what are supposed to be 'Democratic' systems will be held to account. So cynicism and disillusionment sets in. In some cases, people start to blame themselves. Later on, they look for someone else to blame. Sometimes it's the right people (the ruling class) – more often, it's the wrong people (immigrants, foreigners, anyone who's different). 'Revolutionary' solutions don't convince anyone anymore since so many 'Revolutionary' leaders around the world can be seen to have become just as corrupt and dishonest as the people they have deposed – if they aren't co-opted into the 'System' so that they end up having a vested interest in it.

This has been particularly sad in Ireland since so much sacrifice and suffering was endured (almost within living memory) to establish a self-governing state (of sorts). So what's left, and what is to be done?

At the risk of generalizing, there is a great genius for organizing among Irish people. As soon as Irish people arrive in a foreign country almost the first thing they do is establish organizations. These could be County Associations, GAA teams, chapters of the AOH, Gaelic League branches, Irish Social Clubs or branches of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann. In America, there was also the phenomenon of Irish organization and eventual predominance in bodies like City Police and Fire Departments and the Democratic Party (at city level, at least). So we're good at organizing ourselves and in some cases getting ourselves into positions of power. So what to we do with that power once we get there?

Not very much, it seems. Instead, what seems to happen is we close ranks, circle the wagons and segregate ourselves from the wider communities we live amongst and concentrate on maintaining our own social and communal life without dealing with the outside world any more than we have to. Those structures that we establish quickly become dominated by a very small number of men and women who tend to dominate them in some cases for life.

As a result, the organization and their position within it becomes more important than the purpose for which the organization was (ostensibly) established in the first place. This is, admittedly, a very sketchy and perhaps simplistic view of expatriate Irish communities but I would be surprised if at least some people involved in the sort of organization I'm describing didn't recognize some of what I've outlined above.

I think there's some evidence of that tendency within Ireland itself. Since 1948, and particularly since joining the EU, Ireland has become exposed to the wider world economy in a way that it was perhaps not before. In the 20s and 30s, the Irish State espoused very much a 'go-it-alone' approach to the economy. Foreign trade and investment, while not unwelcome, were not pursued with anything like the vigour of later years. Public services and utilities were run with a high degree of state involvement on what I would describe as a 'Social-Corporatist' model with a high degree of Trade Union involvement.

By the early 1960s, the continuing stagnation of the economy led to the Lemass government trying to attract greater foreign investment from outside (particularly, at the time, from the UK) and trying to increase Irish exports to the UK and other European markets. This led to Ireland joining the EEC in 1973 – though another reason for that was the fact that Ireland's biggest trading partner (the UK) was joining and the country could not afford to be cut off from its biggest market.

As the 70s and 80s went on, countries all over Europe moved to the right and workers' rights came under increasing attack. Reaganomics, Thatcherism, Gombeenism – whatever you want to call it – took hold and is still desperately hanging on across the world despite its evident failure in so many economies. It's not done yet, though – one of the things the left always underestimated was capitalism's resilience as long as there were markets and workforces still open to exploitation.

Ireland got a lot of money out of the EEC in the 70s. Lots of this went to farmers who were a pillar of support for Fianna Fail. Some, but not enough, went on education and infrastructure with the result that there was a balance of payments crisis in the 80s. More unemployment, more emigration. Later, money from Europe was spent a bit more wisely although plenty of it still ended up in brown envelopes.

The peace process (which got under way properly after Major replaced Thatcher and Clinton replaced Bush) made Ireland a safer bet for foreign investment. That and the recession in the UK meant that emigration started to reduce and talent had an outlet within Ireland. So far, so good. Then the economy got overheated and successive governments adopted a US-style neo-liberal economic doctrine despite the fact that most of the lasting benefit of the late 80s and 90s came out of Keynesian public investment.

At the same time, the tendency to create organizations and cliques which soon become primarily concerned with their own benefit meant that the country continued to be run by a political class that was concerned with feathering its own nest. What is extraordinary is the extent to which people were prepared to go along with it – but then the same thing happened in Britain in the 80s.

All of which brings me back to the question of how the country's mechanisms of government are set up. We as a people have, as I've said, a genius for creating organizations and hierarchies. We're not, perhaps, so great at maintaining a sense of purpose within them. That's why, in my view, a unitary state based on the Westminster model doesn't suit the country. In the absence of any real ideological or philosophical choice between the parties there is literally nothing to vote for. In Britain in 1945 people were presented with a real choice and a real hope and they went for it. That sort of chance only comes along once in a generation if you're lucky. Whether anyone is equipped to offer the same sort of choice and hope in Ireland in 2011 is another matter.

Well, that's enough from me for now. I didn't mean to blather on so long. Have a good Christmas, everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

If Labour can get their act together, there's hope! Should they rush into it or is there time to get a quality deal for the electorate? Happy Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 10:39 AM

That's a great analysis,Chris B (I know it can be said that all that really means is, "I'm in agreement"); the only thing I'd add is that it seems Ireland has an unusually high proportion of politicians who are themselves the sons or daughters or other relations of those who have been politicians (and sometimes, still are). The genius for organization is one hope to cling to, as long as the original purpose is kept in view, as you stated. But isn't it often said that, in Left Politics meetings, the first thing on the Agenda is "the split into factions"?

Anyway, let's hope 2011 is better than 2010 has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 09:17 AM

Good clear breakdown Chris B. Is there an inbuilt tribalism that gives respect to leaders (in UK there is still deference to a ruling elite where true power resides) Who replaced the Anglo Irish ascendancy, and now the RC church is greatly discredited where does true power lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 02:27 PM

In reference to the economy, Erin Go Blah.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM

the most likely coaliton[according to the book makers is fine gael labour , but another dark horse that is possible is labour/ sinn fein

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

There can be no doubt that the euro was a dumb idea. Iceland — outside the euro — has been able to make a modest recovery from its horrendous meltdown in 2008, but Ireland — inside the euro — is still stuck in the mire.

If Ireland had its own currency, it could let its currency fall and that would boost economic growth. (A cheaper currency helps a country sell its exports.) And if Ireland hadn't joined the euro in the first place, its problems wouldn't be so great.

The primary problem with the euro is that it means you can only have one interest rate across most of Europe. So when Ireland desperately needed a big interest rate rise to curb a massive property boom, it got very little and interest rates stayed too low. As a result, Irish banks lent too much money based on inflated property values. When the bubble eventually burst, the banks were in a right old mess.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the euro was the only cause of Ireland's problems. After all, Britain has had its own crisis and we stayed outside the euro. However, compared to Ireland we don't have as many empty property developments and our banks' problems didn't arise primarily from over-lending on UK property.

In other words, the euro made things much worse for Ireland than would otherwise have been the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:05 AM

Will the inevitable emigration have a musical impact in host communities or do young people expect to travel back and forth rather than put down new roots?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

Depends what the job situation does. Right now, nobody I speak to is expecting anything. People just numbly trudge from one day to the next and wait to "see what happens". General election before long, heigh-ho... Trust is gone, though.

In the meantime, no matter how easy travel becomes, once emigrants have begun to establish themselves and find friends in a new community it gets harder and harder to leave what you've built up. Commitments start forging their own links, and often - unless you're very committed to a particular goal or destination (which a lot of kids aren't, except survival) - a life-path just follows the line of least resistance. So they stay wherever it is they've gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 03:43 PM

the next thing that thisstupid government propose is to spend 15 million on postcodes, for feck sake the country is bankrupt people on social welfare are taking weekly cuts ...and they propose to introduce postcodes, we have managed all this time without postcodes, just with townlands ...this is not the time to waste money on introducing postcodes

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:29 AM

Bonnie, I agree. We have thousands of young Irish graduates and students in Liverpool. Many of them would have planned to move back in the long run but I think a lot of them are sitting tight for the time being and waiting to see what happens. Of course, the longer they do that the more likely they are to start careers and families and put down roots.

That influx of young Irish people hasn't done as much for Irish music in Liverpool as you might expect, with one or two notable exceptions. I think the last thing young people want to do when they move away from home is carry on doing the same thing they did when they were living with their parents. There certainly isn't much evidence of many of them wanting to spend a lot of their time involved with organisations that remind them of the society they left in the first place (and which has let them and their families down so badly).

Another thing is that the earlier generations of Irish people who came to England tended to come as young, single men and women, often straight from the family home with very little to their name except what they brought with them. Many of the people who are losing their jobs in Ireland now have kids in school and mortgages on properties that they can't sell so it's not as easy for them to just up sticks and leave. So yes, I think a lot of people are just hanging on grimly. For those who do leave, I don't think England is the magnet it once was in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:37 AM

"......the last thing young people want to do when they move away from home is carry on doing the same thing they did when they were living with their parents."
I think you will find that the upturn in the fortunes of Irish music has meant that youngsters have now come to it in their thousands out of a genuine love for it and not because they have been railroaded into it by their parents.
I agree that, inthe past and largely because of the Comhaltas approach, young people who were involved due to parental pressure , did a runner as soon as they were free of the apron-strings - happly not the case any more.
One fear in the current crisis (caused by greedy bastards and incompetent and corrupt politicians) is that the government will cut the financial support that has done much to bring about the changes in the music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:43 AM

Jim, I don't doubt that what you describe is the case in Ireland but from what I've seen in Liverpool very few Irish students or young Irish graduates are actively involved in Irish music in the city.

In our Comhaltas branch a couple of years ago we decided to try and do something about that. I contacted the local universities to ask about setting up stalls at their freshers' fairs. It turns out that there is now a commercial agency that books stalls at these events for colleges all over Britain. It's big business and it's very expensive. However, we could get a 50% discount if we were a registered charity. Unfortunately, Comhaltas in Britain isn't.

So we approached The Liverpool Irish Festival to see if they wanted to come in with us and split the cost. Not interested. We also asked the local Irish centre to do the same and they agreed. The deal was we would split the costs and manpower and both organisations would share names and email addresses of anyone who wanted to be involved.

The Centre kept all that information and never passed it on to the branch but from being on the stalls myself I could see that neither they nor us were exactly flooded with interest (despite the fact that we had students and young people helping man the stall).

Students are students wherever you go and just because they come from Ireland doesn't meant they're going to be interested in traditional music. English students go to colleges in Scotland and Ireland but that doesn't mean they're all into Martin Carthy and Morris Dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:56 AM

I was talking to two local teenagers who are going to Limerick uni, to study music. They, a brother and sister first and second year students, said it was brilliant they played all day, breaks, evenings and nights. Non-stop.

You'd expect it from music students, but still.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

Two cases, CHRIS B is right, a lot of young irish people are not interested in the music, I would guess from observation a large minority are, say 40 per cent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM

In the past there was a nationalist enthusiasm. If England had been subject to a foreign power I'm sure there would be the same effect.

Now Ireland stands on her own feet it must be love or a commercial career opportunity or both/

In our sessions in Sheffield we don't get too many young Irish musicians any more.

i've got five sons, all into music but not trad! It's peer influence at first. Unless you are a youngster witha scial life tied in with traditional music it is unlikely you will pursue it once away from parental influemce unless you got gripped by it young.

In the past there were dancehalls where young Irish immigrants could socialise and meet the opposite sex. Now there are other clubs and a less segregated society. Good for people bad for the tradition?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,jackaro
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

What happened? same as everywhere in the capitalist world
Here it is in a 'talkin' blues'

Talkin' 21st century American Capitalist Blues
                                                                
© Jack Warshaw 2009
Inspired by a recent '2 cows' analysis of the world banking crisis:

   21st century capitalism American style:
      A man has 0 cows but notices that cows produce a lot of milk .
      He lends a bank $$$ to buys cows for him.
      In exchange for the $$$ he gets 30 years of the cows future milk.
      He sells the future milk to 3000 institutions around the world .
      He insures his loan to the bank with AIG, just in case.
      He gives himself a huge bonus for being so "talented".
      3000 institutions around the world sell the future milk to 3 million people like us.
      The cows all get mad cow and have to be slaughtered.
      The bank goes bust and the employees are laid off.
      The man claims the loss of milk against his insurance with AIG.
      3000 institutions around the world do the same.
      AIG collapses and markets around the world panic
      The government gives the man $$$ to buy more cows with $$$ it borrowed on our behalf.
      The man now has lots of cows and $$$ again and lots of milk.
      He gives himself another bonus for being so "talented".

Well come all you city folk if you wanna learn
I'll explain to you in simple terms
How it came to be that the country's broke
And we're so poor we're like to croak

It all started on a farm near you…

There was a rich man who bought some cows
He tried to milk 'em but didn't know how
He went to the bank and the banker said
"Lend me your money and I'll buy them cows instead"

"This here note says you get the milk as long as the grass shall grow."

"Now you can sell that future milk
To other banks of similar ilk
Just insure your money in case of foul weather
And keep a chunk of it for bein' so clever"

High ho Wall Street, here I come…   

So the rich guy sold promises of milk
But the cows got sick and had to be killed
The banks went broke and sacked their staff
And all the rich guys claimed insurance payoffs

All the banks collapsed the very same way
The insurance guys just couldn't pay
'Twas the end of the line for the gravy train
There's no one left now to take the blame

The whole shebang went west quicker'n you could say "Buddy can you spare a dime?"
But wait…

The dough the government took from us
Went to those rich guys who bought more cows
Now they've got the cows, the money and lots of milk
And a big fat bonus for bein' so slick

Only trouble is, we're gonna be bailin' them banks out 'till the cows come home!