BS: Ireland-What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:14 PM

" first you say that you wish the Irish would go home,"
I refute that (yet again!).
It is a lie.
"then you describe antagonistic bloody sectarian marches as a harmless day out,"
I refute that.
It is a lie.
"now you are acting as an apologist for English fascist anti- Semites."
A new and vicious lie.

There are a few scum in every nation.
The people of this one took in tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from the Nazis, declared war on those Nazis and, after the fall of France, chose to stand alone against them, though defeat seemed inevitable and the destruction of our ancient towns and cities assured along with the death of hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk.
Only the Commonwealth and ordinary Irish people stood with us.
The IRA sided with Hitler.

Now Jim, you said,
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM

"Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary! "
You really are racking up your heroes aren't you - first you say that you wish the Irish would go home, then you describe antagonistic bloody sectarian marches as a harmless day out, now you are acting as an apologist for English fascist anti- Semites.
You have the facts about the great and the good fascists who supported Hitler, you've got an example of their bilious filth, which you describe as a silly song - this in the knowledge that the man who wrote it aligned himself with the same people who sent six millon Jews to the gas chambers. The song calls for the hanging of Jews, for god's sake.
You really are a piece of work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:36 PM

Thanks GSS.
I do not know much about Barry, and so asked you to verify the Wiki statement.
This is from a Sinn Fein site.
Barry would assert in later life that he opposed both the 1930s bombing campaign in England and IRA contacts with Nazi Germany. In fact in January 1937 he had taken a trip to Germany seeking to find out the extent of German infiltration of the IRA. German support was assured to him subject to the condition that the IRA limited its actions to British military installations once war was declared. Financing was to be arranged through Clann na Gael in the USA.
http://www.ballincolligsinnfein.com/p/tom-barry_3898.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

wiki is fucking wrong, go read some biographies of Tom Barry,
HE WENT TO GERMANY once,and i quote...primarily to find out and if at all, the nazis had penetrated the IRA because he[BARRY] was convinced that the bombing plan[ which BARRYopposed]of Britain was German inspired and financed.
that is a quote from Tom Barry freedom fighter by Meda Ryan.
Tom Barry fought in the first world war for England, he had no sympathies with Nazi Germany, it was his military training that made him so successful as a leader of geurilla warfare.
Keithyou are misinformed and dont know what yiou are talking abou

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM

"It is simply not believable, and you admit you have not actually quoted anything but your own imagination."
Not believeable?
You've seen he list, you've had the evidence - you could even sing the song.


Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Now go **** yourself you stupid boy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:26 PM

Jim,
"Whatever Brian Hanley says about the stance of the IRA towards Nazism, there are ten times as many to contradict him"

No there are not.
Or can you produce any?
He is the author of many books, and lectures on Irish History at the University of Ireland.
The piece I linked to gives all the impeccable sourcesfor what he states.

I am not clutching at straws when I say i do not believe your "quote"
It is simply not believable, and you admit you have not actually quoted anything but your own imagination.
So why the quotes??!?

GSS,
"Tom Barry OPPOSED the idea of the IRA cooperating with the nazis,"
Wiki says that he went to Germany to seek support in January 1937.
Is that false?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM

I think you're missing the point there, dick.

I assume the remark was to point out Sinéad being a nice name. No doubt you meant Seanad Éireann, and you always jumping it to correct people's spelling and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:49 AM

Oswald Mosleys right hand man..was R Bellamy.
abolish ..the sinead because it is an unecessary expense, if my suggestions were taken up a lot of money would be saved, and it would not be necessary to cut 8 euros off the job seekers allowance, and off widows pensions

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:22 AM

Try this for size
http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm
A few random selections from an 'Independant' article - in the light of which it seems that my "wingeing Yid" quote is not only possible, but quite likely - and in fact, pretty tame in comparison to what was happening.
Jim Carroll

"A list of leading Nazi sympathisers in the British establishment at the outbreak of the Second World War has at last been put on public view.
The infamous Red Book, which reveals the membership of the upper-class Right Club, was written more than 60 years ago. It offers a chilling insight into the virulence of the anti-Semitism which was rife among peers, MPs, knights of the realm and other leading society figures at that time. Those listed include the 5th Duke of Westminster, the second Baron Redesdale (the father of the Mitford sisters) and the famous aviator Lord Sempill who was later suspected of spying for the Japanese. Others named are The Earl of Galloway, Lord Carnegie, Lord Ronald Graham and William Joyce, who later achieved notoriety as Lord Haw-Haw, broadcasting propaganda from Germany .
The Right Club was set up by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP, an outspoken anti-Semite, a few months before the war in May 1939 "to oppose and expose the activities of Organised Jewry". In meetings chaired by the Duke of Wellington it sought to influence government policy to stop war with Germany.
Ramsay drew up the secret membership list in his distinctive spiky handwriting. There are 135 names on the men's list and 100 on the women's. In the women's list is Anna Wolkoff, who was later accused of spying with American cypher clerk Tyler Kent. Also listed is Majorie Amor, one of several MI5 agents who had infiltrated the club.
Interleaved in the Red Book are a number of extraordinary documents relating to Ramsay and the Right Club. These included a manuscript of his vicious anti-semitic rhyme "Land of Dope and Jewry", hand-written by Ramsay on House of Commons notepaper the day after war was declared. There is also a letter from the man who was to become Lord Haw-Haw, apologising for being able to afford only five shillings (25p) as his membership fee.
The Who's Who of British Nazis ......The establishment figures who wanted to turn the UK into a fascist dictatorship
..... The Red Book is the membership list of the Right Club, a secret organisation founded in May 1939 by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP. Unlike the populist British Union of Fascists lead by the charismatic Sir Oswald Mosley, the Right Club was exclusive.
Its members were aristocrats and Members of Parliament, academics, civil servants, clerics and rich dilettantes. Some of the men had distinguished themselves in the 1914-18 war and saw themselves as patriots. But they were also virulent racists who supported Hitler's treatment of Germany's Jewish population. Many were Nazi sympathisers. From King Edward VIII downwards, there was a widespread view that only a powerful Germany could hold back the threat of Bolshevism, and that Britain should be supporting Hitler, not preparing to attack him.
......But if the badge seems mildly comic now, the vehemence with which these establishment figures hated Jews was chilling. A "hymn" to the tune of "Land of Hope and Glory", entered in the book in Ramsay's handwriting and in a printed version for public distribution, reads:

Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.

Running my finger down the list, written with a fountain pen in Ramsay's hand, the names still resonate: Arthur Wellesley the 5th Duke of Wellington, the Second Baron Redesdale, The Earl of Galloway, Lord Ronald Graham, Princess Blucher, Sir Ernest Bennett, Prince Turka Galitzine and Britain's most notorious Second World War traitor, William Joyce, later known as Lord Haw-Haw as he broadcast propaganda from Germany. The book also lists donations. Sir Alexander Walker, then the head of the Johnnie Walker whisky dynasty, is shown to have donated the princely sum of £100.
Another well known, anti-Semite member was A K Chesterton, a First World War military hero. Commander E H Cole was the Chancellor of the White Knights, a British version of the Ku Klux Klan. MPs included Sir James Edmondson, Colonel Charles I Kerr and John M'Kie."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM

'Abolish the sinead'? Why? I think it's a lovely name.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:33 AM

brian hanley can spout uninformed nonsense so what
the IRA was not a nazi organisation, the facists in ireland were called the blueshirts and were an off shoot of a minority of fine gael members, and an ex army organisation called the aca,army comrades organisation, the blueshirts and aca fought on the fascist side in spain, some meMbers of the ira fought on the anti Franco side.
Tom Barry OPPOSED the idea of the IRA cooperating with the nazis, he also opposed the IRA fighting on the anti franco side, as he considered it a distraction.
he also believed in irish neutrality during the emergency.
DIRECT ACTION IS AGOOD IDEA however I would not know where to start,   
interesting to see that PETER lABAN is still out there ready to jump on my back at any opportunity .

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

"I say that you have made that up."
You appear to be grasping at straws to make some political capital - please feel free, as you have little else in your favour.
Perhaps you might like to make some more from my mistake in naming Martin Walker as the authour of Holocaust - it was, of course Martin Gilbert - a slip on my part - Martin Walker was the author of the excellent 'The National Front'. It makes no difference whatever to the point I made - the British establisment, including members of the royal family was riddled with Nazi sympathisers.
"Chamberlain's speech was long before the start of the extermination."
His statement was a reflection of the ambiguity towards the rise of Fascism in Germany and the desire to appease - persecution of the Jews was already well under way and was known worldwide.
Whatever Brian Hanley says about the stance of the IRA towards Nazism, there are ten times as many to contradict him, but it is beside the point - I repeat WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH ANYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING IN IRELAND TODAY?
Dick is entitled to state his opinions on the IRA, on Tom Barry, on whoever; they are his opinions and certainly not mine 0- take it up with him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:43 AM

"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."

I say that you have made that up.
The only evidence you can put up is that you have always known it!

You should justify or retract.

Chamberlain's speech was long before the start of the extermination.

YOU should look up how many tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from the Nazis were welcomed into Britain.

Brian Hanley says that IRA was a Nazi organisation at that time.
I am not in a position to challenge his knowledge.
Are you?

The position of the IRA was anyway ignored by the tens of thousands of young Irish men who flocked to Britain to fight AGAINST the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM

seriously, abolish the presidency, abolish the sinead ,reduce the number of tds, reduce biffos wage so it is comparable to camerons [a saving of 30 k], reduce dermot aherns pension by half... 100 k saved.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:28 AM

"was just made up."
No it wasn't - it's a piece of infoprmation I have always known, as I have known that the British establishment - Mosely, Rothermere, The Windsors et al was riddled with Nazi sympathisers - none of whom you have challenged so I presume you accept.
Read Martin Walker's 'Holocaust' on the ambiguity of the British Government's approach to Germany - or look up Chamberlain's "peace in our time statement".
I ask again - because the British Government allied itself with The Soviet Union, does that make them communist?
And one more time - are you claiming that the IRA was a Nazi organisation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:27 AM

When you blow buildings up (even empty ones) people get hurt and traumatised terribly. It really doesn't help.

As for kidnapping millionaires - its the sort of thing the Karpis/Barker gang used to do in the 1930's. Messy business, not really for amateurs. you need a bigger place than Ireland to hide in.

Direct action is a good idea, but its a hard one to pull off.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:25 AM

I am joking.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:30 AM

That was cross posted, my reaction was to Dick's first post of two.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

And what do you think that would solve Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

A campaign of blowing up empty government buildings, empty housing estates, viaducts, railway bridges, so that they have to be rebuilt again, is all in the true spirit of capitalism, and would get the economy a kick start.
blowing up a few sewage treatment plants would be good too, destroy the new motorways., so they have to be rebuilt
refuse to pay back any interest, tell the swiss bankers to fuck themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

TomBarry was against attacking the British mainland, HEwas in favour at that time of attacking the north.
I am not suggesting that is the solution now, as usual my words have been misinterpreted and twisted.
the sort of direct action that is needed now is for the dail AND SINEAD buildings to be blown up, preferably when the building is empty.
POSSIBLY Biffo OR ONE OF THE BOND HOLDERS SUCH AS SPIROS SHOULD BE KIDNAPPED AND HELD HOSTAGE.
The irish should leave the euro zone

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

"No idea"

So your statement,"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." was just made up.
Why do you make up smears Jim?

The drift is not mine.
GSS brought up the issue of IRA strategy in the prewar era.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:56 AM

I've also been wondering what it has to do with the present situation - which was not imposed on us by outside parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:47 AM

"And which minister?"
No idea - though the fact that the reports of the extermination camps were dismissed out of hand is common knowledge - read your history books (or borrow one.
I really don't understand your drift here - are you saying that the IRA was a Nazi organisation?
What has this got to do with the present situation - or is it yet another attempt on your part to show your dislike of the Irish
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:28 AM

I was just quoting an eminent Irish historian Jim.

Now, any evidence for, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." or did you just make that up?

And which minister?
Not he Minister of War obviously as he was a "Yid."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM

I'm confused now. Does this mean the GSS is an IRA supporter or a Nazi supporter? Or a wannabe kidnapper? I blame those concertinas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:23 AM

Still don't get your point - the IRA were made up of all shades of opinions - suggest you try Tim Pat Coogan's history - among others.
There is no more evidence that the IRA was a fascist organisation that there is that Britain was a Communist one for allying itself with Stalin and The Soviet Union to fight Germany - or do you claim that too?
War makes strange bedfellows.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:07 AM

GSS did call for direct action.
The rest of that post was all about attacking the North.
If we were not meant to link those ideas, it should have been made clearer.

Jim, as Brian Hanley said, same piece, " unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to."

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:56 AM

No GSS said Direct Action....

You said Invade the North....

Perhaps he's going to climb the cenotaph or play his concerina as the ship goes down. If he comes up with an good idea for direct action. perhaps we could do it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:46 AM

Wouldn't be the first time a crumbling regime manufactured a war to divert people's attention from the state of the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:43 AM

Any evidence for, "When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"." ??

If you would care to check Jim, the proposal to attack the North was from Tom Barry circa 1936,and seemingly reiterated by GSS.
Not me.
My comment was a gasp of amazed disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

This would have been around the same time as The Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Lord Rothermere via his Daily Mail and a great many British public figures and politicians were lending their support to Herr Hitler (I seem to remember that Oswald Mosely had a knighthood conferred on him - correct me if I'm wrong). When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids".
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the present situation, neither does the pragmatic and very wrong "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - so what's your point?
Interesting that your information came from Ireland's leading history Journal though.
Now about your proposal for invading the North.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

When GSS says Tom Barry believed "in the 30s" he actually means 1938, just before the syart of WW2.
Russell and McGarrity (Natzi collaborators)cooperated in launching a coup within the IRA during that year, overthrowing its established leadership and committing the organisation to a bombing campaign in Britain. Tom Barry, one of the ousted leadership, claimed that money from the German-American Bund, the main Nazi organisation in the US, had been promised to fund the bombing campaign. In January 1939 that bombing campaign began but, despite leading to seven civilian deaths and the execution of two IRA men, never caused the political crisis the IRA hoped for. The international situation leading up to the outbreak of the Second World War preoccupied British opinion. During the months after the outbreak of war the IRA publicly declared that it was supporting neither 'king' nor 'dictator'.
However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain. In August the IRA confidently predicted that with the assistance of 'our victorious European allies' Ireland would 'achieve absolute independence within the next few months'.
http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:36 AM

"Attack the North? "
Why - the North is in just as big a mess as is the South - what a crass idea.
Cap'n - I'm sure you could come up with something more sensible than that - pretty sure our cat could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:34 AM

The North???

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:21 AM

Attack the North?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:10 PM

"what is needed now is direct action."
Would be interested to learn what form this would take Cap'n.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:33 PM

Direct action......!

Suppose it upsets the delicate balance between the Shi-ites and the Sunnis!

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:26 PM

Tom Barry believed[this was in the 1930s]that if he had been allowed[ by the IRA council] to attack the north, at that time, he would have driven the British out, I believe he was right.
what is needed now is direct action.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 02:54 PM

"Feck me, waht's this Carroll drinking?"
Poitín occasionally - why?
I meant that Irish Governments hold more referenda than , say, the UK - I don't suggest they honour the result.
Personally, I tend to share GSS's view of parliamentary democracy as it stands. It has been abused by enough governments (of all shades) to prove that it doesn't work - but on the other hand, neither does the gun and the bomb - it took thirty years of the last century to convince me of that. Maybe you can show us otherwise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST,Sean South
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:50 PM

Ireland does have a reasonable track-record on referenda.

Feck me, waht's this Carroll drinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM

Democratic solutions are clap trap, what is needed is direct action, and someone of the ilk of Tom Barry, kidnap one of the bond holders and hold them hostage

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:00 AM

"Still, the shite has so spectacularly hit the fan this time that maybe they'll have nowhere left unsplattered to hide..."
I share with you a deep mistrust of the government - and all politicians for that matter, but.....
If we are to continue supporting a democratic solution, the one straw we have left to cling to is that the Government has to face an election on a regular basis, and Ireland does have a reasonable track-record on referenda. Added to this is the fact that we have proportional representation here. I can still remember the creative use that Maggie made of the first-past-the-post system, when those of us who opposed her may as well not have had a vote.
None of this leaves the rest of us with very much, but it's better than nothing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

Erm.... yes... I think we all realised that. For some time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

It really is quite simple. The banks lent a load of money they didn't have to people who couldn't afford to pay it back. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:08 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you at all - but it's the honesty of the government I was talking about! They already have a bad record in that area, and I'm cynical about the ability of cronies in power to hush things up and manipulate what we're allowed to see. Especially if each side has information about the other that said "other" would rather keep hidden - it concentrates the mind wonderfully. And I cannot believe there were no banker/politician bedfellows (I realise I'm not telling you anything you weren't already well aware of).

Still, the shite has so spectacularly hit the fan this time that maybe they'll have nowhere left unsplattered to hide... now that we're answerable to outside forces... with the world & the blogosphere watching...

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:07 AM

Not me I'm afraid Bonnie - the government have at least to go through the motions of answering to the people (even though they seldom do), whereas the banks are answerable to nobody but themselves and their investors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:45 AM

And HONESTLY. That's the bit that worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

This appears to be a fair summary of what the Irish Government will be empowered to do should the bill be passed - not quite nationalisation, but a step in the right direction, should the powers be used sensibly.
Jim Carroll

"THE GOVERNMENT will have far-reaching powers to restructure the banking system, including the ability to force losses on to subordinated bondholders and stop future bonus payments to staff, under a draft law published yesterday.
The sweeping measures will allow the Minister for Finance to transfer loans and deposits out of the lenders in a bid to reduce the size of the banking system.
Special managers can be appointed to a bank by the Minister if it is faced with "an imminent threat" to its stability. They will have powers
to sack directors and overrule share-holders.        
The law will allow the Government to pump further cash into AIB, which has a €9.8 billion capital hole, before the end of the year, effectively nationalising a fourth lender.        
It will also enable the Government to start winding down Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society within weeks, paving the way for the transfer of their deposits to a other banks."