BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers

Subject: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM

Cut and paste follows: -

George Osborne is a pretty convincing Artful Dodger! He's certainly good at dodging the issue of tax cheats. 38 Degrees members have helped come up with an eye-catching advert to put our Chancellor on the spot, and face the question he's been trying to avoid: why won't he get tough on tax dodging?

VAT goes up on the 4th of January. That day, George Osborne will be doing the media rounds, claiming there's no alternative to a VAT hike and cuts to our schools and hospitals. He'll claim "we're all in this together" - but the truth is that some of the richest currently pay far less tax than the rest of us.

We can break through his spin and change the debate with attention-grabbing ads on the same day. Instead of his carefully rehearsed spin, we'll ensure that everywhere George Osborne goes he'll be asked tough questions about tax dodging.

Check out the ad here, and donate now to help sponsor it:
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/artful-dodger

George Osborne keeps telling us that our national debt is all down to benefit cheats and bloated public services. But that's not the whole story. Up to £120bn is lost to tax cheats every year. That's 15 times more than benefit cheats cost us! It's more than the entire NHS budget and over three times the amount we spend on schools. [1] If money is so tight, why doesn't George Osbourne want to tackle tax cheats?

George Osborne seems to think tax dodging is okay. He does it, as do senior Tories like Sir Philip Green and Lord Ashcroft. [2] He made a secret deal with Vodafone to write off £6bn in tax. [3] He stays silent whilst businesses like Kraft announce new plans to dodge tax. [4] And now he wants to give massive tax breaks to corporate giants. [5] He says 'we're all in this together'. But the reality is he is refusing to make the super-rich pay their fair share.

If we raise enough money to get these ads all over the papers, it will create a media stir and help expose 'we're all in this together' as a hollow soundbite. We'll put the issue of tax dodging where George Osborne can't avoid it – in our national press on the day of the VAT tax hike.

We've need to raise £20,000 get our ads in all the papers. Please chip in now to see this ad go to print:
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/artful-dodger

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 07:40 AM

probably a scam!

My money is needed for my family

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 02:22 PM

1. The legal framework exists already to detect and punish tax evasion, which is illegal.
2. Tax avoidance is legal and therefore not susceptible of punishment without changing the law to close loopholes.
3. Shock, horror, a terrible revelation for left wingers. It is not solely Tories who avoid taxes. It is Corporations and rich people of every stripe and political persuasion.

4. I don't recall any such witch hunt being directed at New Labour, who signally failed to attempt a reduction in tax avoidance during their thirteen year opportunity, possibly because they too had both feet firmly in the trough as with the scandalous misuse of expense claims.

Try again lads, and maybe you might come up with something bad which is Tory only, but you haven't managed it yet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Big Phil
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM

All at Westminster are pigs with their snouts in the trough, the gravy train is used by all, no matter what colour. The rich will always be rich, and by and large the poor will remain poor.

Do I remember Bottler Brown awarding the OAP's a 50p rise in their pensions. While NEW LIEbour ex ministers wave 15 grand cheques in the air, keen to repay instead of having to face the music for flipping houses, or claiming your sisters broom cupboard is your main residence, so you can "fiddle" expenses on your real home.

No doubt the Tory's have similar tales to tell, and even Cleggs band are not whiter than white.

The stench of fiddle permeates Westminster like a noxious gas floating over no mans land.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

I have previously explained a possible route to deal with tax "evasion".

It remains a fact that the conservatives are the party of the rich and another fact that more conservatives and rich avoid tax than any others - look at this government's giveaways so far to tax avoiders and tax havens.

Tax evasion that is hidden through non-disclosure is not effectively pursued. Tax avoidance is neither pursued not tackled. I could tell you here and now the name of a multimillion pound business the directors of which slide millions a year undisclosed out to numbered accounts in Liechtenstein - but my nameless clients (who are not the villains) believe that revenge is a dish best eaten cold and will make the appropriate anonymous report complete with account numbers in due course.

Oh - it's not you Richie, and it's not you Willie and it's not you Bozo - you can shower and change your underwear now.

PS Don, try to remember (or are you suffering from short term memory loss?) - who introduced the traduced expenses system and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 07:02 AM

Nothing wrong with my memory mate. It goes all the way back to 1964 and the unfortunate election of the biggest crook who ever inhabited No 10.

Harold Wilson left behind plenty of evidence of the fiddles and cheats that were part and parcel of Labour's tenure.

You only have to look at the names on the honours list following his departure to know that there were then, just as there are now, plenty of rich left wingers fiddling the tax system and making huge under the counter donations to guess who?

So don't try to perpetuate the myth that the Tories invented government sleaze and corrupt behaviour because that myth has been blown out of the water already.

Taking a more balanced look at the history of British politics might improve your disposition and help you to resist your well known propensity for foaming at the mouth and wishing disaster and painful death on all who do not see you as the fount of all wisdom.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 07:58 AM

"It remains a fact that the conservatives are the party of the rich and another fact that more conservatives and rich avoid tax than any others "

Oh and thats not the case with the Labour Party! They are all in the same trough.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: mandotim
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

Arthur itus; are you saying that all MPs of whatever persuasion are corrupt? 'All' is a very difficult word to substantiate. Perhaps you would care to produce your conclusive evidence that 'all'MPs are corrupt? You see, it's my recollection that a goodly number of MPs were utterly blameless in the recent expenses fiasco, and had properly declared any and all of their interests in the register. Sweeping statements like yours are lazy debating.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:00 AM

Mando
I just responded to somebody else's comment, who becuase of his political persuasion is constantly hammering the Conservative party as being corrupt. Have your aggro with him.

It's a general comment and basically implies that the Labour Government is no different and if Richard Bridge can go round saying things like that, then IMHO all parties look after themselves and are just the same.

IMHO Most MP's in all parties are not corrupt. However there are bound to be some as in all forms of life.

I think each party is as bad as each other.

I realise that there are a number of mudcatters that are staunch Labour supporters on Mudcat and it is hard to stop them slating other parties. I really think that is so blinkered and biased.

I have voted for all 3 parties in my time. So I do not see things in the same way as some of these die hard Labourites.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:32 AM

Are there no rich socialists, apart from the ex Lord Stansgate?
I notice the HIS socialism, didn't extend to giving up his money, as well as his title!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:47 AM

The real problem is that behind every party in power is an establishment that is utterly devoted to maintaining the status quo i.e. rich people and establishment figures get the cash, everyone else is subject to the vagaries and capriciousness of our economical status at an given point in time.

The effect the incumbent government has on the public's quality of life is partly due to how much they embrace this culture. The tories alway have, and still are an old boys club of toffs and moneyed folk who attract the aspirational (but perpetually denied) middle classes; they have in effect created a consumer class, something very dear to the patron saint of the middle class Margaret Thatcher and one of her most insidious achievements. We all knew well before Wikileaks that the current crop of tory wonks were Thatcher's children - not really news.

As for the Labour party, they too were held in the thrall of the consumerist ideal and this is why they failed their natural constituency, the working classes. They had to embrace the culture of (false) aspiration and they did so, although to their credit they did have a social conscience so did make the NHS and welfare state more supportive. In the end they played the establishment game and look where it led us; already in some areas people are waiting longer for operations as the tory government, elected on the back of a deficit that was caused largely by the very people who support them, now start to wreak destruction on the second best thing Labour ever did - help those at the bottom of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 07:29 AM

Rubbish as usual from Bridge, and no Leveller to back him up!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:43 AM

"Are there no rich socialists, apart from the ex Lord Stansgate?"

There's Lord Sainsbury, and loads of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM

Titled people are socialists, and Labout Party supporters?
Oh dear, what a blow for stereotyping.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM

"more conservatives and rich avoid tax than any others"

Can't contradict that, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM

Can you give us %'s Richard.

e.g.

Tax avoiders
Conservatives %
Labour %
Lib Dem %
Rich %

Non Tax Avoiders %

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:13 AM

Well bugger me. I have been away for a few days, locked in my ivory tower, counting my gold etc, and come back to see M'unlearned friend mentioning me in a thread. Nice to feel wanted I suppose...

You know, feeling strongly about tax dodging is noble. Feeling strongly about conservatives can be noble too.

But to differentiate tax dodgers who happen to have a different political view to you? That is rather odious and not worthy of debate in decent company.

Though as there's bugger all decent about me, I'll debate it anyway.

Assuming that by tax avoidance we are speaking about illegal behaviour, then we have courts and a few competent legal dudes (in the main) to deal with that. If however, we are lumping in those who analyse the tax system to ensure they are only paying what they are legally due for, then that is another matter.

I am not a conservative, and have never (hitherto) voted for them. I also think their solution to the chronic public debt situation is both knee jerk, founded on hysteria and relying on a false hope, that of private sector recovery.

But they are the only party who seem to hate debt, the only party who don't see managing debt as being the same as managing wealth, the only party who at least acknowledge the idea of "one nation," whilst I am listing their good points.

Cast your vote as you wish, you'll get the government. A labour government will perhaps have a bit more thought for the more vulnerable in society and a conservative government will try to ensure we can afford to look after the more vulnerable in society. But that's the only real difference.

The both have card carrying members either in prison, about to go to prison, (I once got drunk with Elliot Morley, not a nice piece of work...) or know what a prison cell looks like.

They both have tax dodgers... I wouldn't recommend using "I am Labour" as a prefix to moaning about Ashcroft & Osborne. Some kind person might whisper "Maxwell."

Oh, and Tony Benn wants for nothing more than a flask of tea and a few history books. His inherited wealth is rather irrelevant don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:34 AM

On the contrary, his inherited wealth allows him to indulge his idiotsyncrasies.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:52 AM

I have a neighbor who goes on those Republican NC and RPAC Caribean cruises. While he has to pay for the food portion the rest is a gift from the party.

He does not declare this to the IRS.

Do you suggest I turn him in???

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:12 PM

Let's get straight what we are discussing.

Tax evasion:- The illegal withholding of revenues due to the government. Laws are already in place to deal with this.

Tax avoidance:- The reduction of revenue liability by use of entirely legal means, usually as a result of loopholes in sloppy legislation.

Tax avoiders, be they Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or Monster Raving Looney, are breaking NO laws. They are using the system which incompetent legislators have supplied, and it is ridiculous to vilify them for so doing.

I'm sure that Richard Bridge employs the services of an accountant whose job it is to minimise his tax liabilities, and his major objection to tax avoiders is that he isn't rich enough to be able to make all the savings that they enjoy.

There is always an element of the "Politics of Envy" in these rants, and I'm fairly sure that in the right circumstances that moral outrage would swiftly vanish.

You may say that tax avoidance is morally and ethically unacceptable, and with that I would wholeheartedly agree, but the answer is to do what the Tories have suggested, and simplify the tax system such that the loopholes disappear, taking the whole concept of tax avoidance with them.

You then have only to 1) Jail those who indulge in tax evasion, and 2) Sack the incompetents in the tax collecting system, who lose more money through errors than the rich salt away offshore.

If Richard Bridge ever comes up with those requested percentages (which I doubt will happen), I suspect that the proportions will be pretty equal across all persuasions. The only certainty is that they will all be rich.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM

Quote from Don "The only certainty is that they will all be rich." End of quote

You mean like Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John Prescott, Jack Straw and the likes of.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:07 PM

Baron Prescott of Kingston-upon-Hull, if you please.
Oh if it wasn't so fucking sad, I'd laugh me socks off.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 01:28 PM

No thanks, Arthur itus, I think I'll keep on asking you to substantiate your outrageous claim that all politicians are 'in the same trough'. I'm not making a political point here, it's more of a personal point; you and the rest of the right-wing anti-intellectuals here seem to be making an organised assault on a long-standing and respected member of this forum. I don't like bullying, and that's what's going on here. It also has a remarkable resemblance to the activities of the BNP on this and other boards a little while ago; you wouldn't be associated with that, would you? You made a claim; I'm merely asking you to substantiate it. Richard Bridge made no such generalised claim, restricting his points to specific cases. Evidence please!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:11 PM

No this isn't an argument about Tory versus Labour.

You can afford not to bicker with each other on this one.

Naturally the tories avoid more tax - they're richer - goes without saying - but its not the point.

The government (tory and labour) have broad agreement on one point - we're in the financial shit, and the poor and middle income have to get us out.

I think, there is a real sea change in the air. People are really pissed off with rich people in this country. Its a bit like when Churchill said that the setting up of the National health Service was an 'unreal expectation'. People weren't buying it then, and they aren't buying it now.

They don't see it as their fault. sure, we all had massive credit card debts when you could do five months with MBNA then swap to Lloyds, then the CO-OP. then have five months at nought percent with all those in your wife's name. Why not? It was sound economic sense. Beter than borrowing on a business loan at 15%. But so what. The government got VAT on all the stuff we bought. Everyone did well out of the deal. It wasn't our fault the country hit the skids.

For a couple of years why not have the national theatre and opera doing work that makes money rather needing subsidy. lets see the stuff marketed intelligently rather than a pokey little shop in the theatre foyer. Get sponsors for the royal wedding and the olympics and all the other beanfeasts. And for godsake lets get some of this huge amount of inherited wealth prised out of the places where its resided for years and get it making money for the country.

Its not fair to keep hitting the same sections of society and apportioning blame , like we're the tainted wethers of the flock, the baby boomers who wanted to live their lives in technicolour.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM

Mandotim

I am not bullying anybody and definately have no leanings to BNP (I find that very offensive and would like an apology)

I have already said

IMHO Most MP's in all parties are not corrupt. However there are bound to be some as in all forms of life.

I think each party is as bad as each other.

That is my stance and I do not intend to get into any further discussion with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 02:49 PM

Don, you are twisting in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM

". . . and it is ridiculous to vilify them for so doing.

Is it ridiculous to vilify anybody who knowingly avoids shouldering their share of their responsibility to society? Or perhaps you think individuals have no personal responsibility to society?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 04:00 PM

""Richard Bridge made no such generalised claim, restricting his points to specific cases. Evidence please!""

""" From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM

"more conservatives and rich avoid tax than any others"

Can't contradict that, can you?"""

Looks like a pretty generalised claim to me mate.

As for us bullying him, this well respected long time member is the only one I see regularly wishing physical harm and painful death, not only upon other members, but upon their families and even their children.

It is at that point that respect tends to evaporate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 05:44 PM

You can't contradict it, can you? Or do you thing the world is flat?

And you need to learn the difference between "often" or "frequently" and "regularly" which means "recurring with a fixed periodicity".


Justice is a wonderful thing. Or it would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 06:15 PM

Your statement is correct as it stands "more Conservative and rich, but only because the primary criterion is rich."

Your contention that the majority of tax avoiders are Tory is without merit and meaningless, unless of course you can adduce supporting evidence for the statement, which I'm afraid you cannot, and will not, do.

With respect to your attempt to teach me English I need give that no weight. Your speciality is Law, mine is English (Language and Literature). I did of course use the word "regularly" inadvisedly in this context, when it would have been more accurate to say that your nasty ad hominem comments occur just about every time anybody disagrees with you.

Perhaps, if I may encroach a little upon your speciality, you might consider substituting discussion for your more usual adversarial cross examination, and vituperation.

This is, after all, a discussion forum, not a court.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:03 PM

Don I don't know why Richard has called this thread conservative tax dodgers. I can't see its worth quibbling about. The tories have always prided themselves on being a party of low taxation - which really has been the traditionally the concern of the rich. The tories have always prided themselves being the party of business - which means tax loopholes, allowances all the stuff not available to the PAYE gang.

Common sense tells you that there are more tory tax dodgers. But if it really worries you, lets suppose there are more Labour tax dodgers - it doesn't alter the basic situation.

Poor people not being able to afford tertiary education; the emergency dept of hospitals only opening office hours; Royal weddings and Olympic games with VIPs getting free suites at the Dorchester; Soldiers being asked to put their lives on the line with crap equipment......

People are saying bugger this for a game of soldiers. Not while 0.5% of the population own such an enormous part of the wealth of the country. Let the rich dig into their pockets for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:48 AM

Don, we know perfectly well that there is a tendency for conservative supporters to be rich and labour supporters to be poor - all you have to do is to look at the voting patterns constituency by constituency. The poorer the constituency the more likely it is to return a labour MP.

We also know that the rich avoid more tax (and evade more tax) than the poor, because they have more to be taxed.

I am, frankly, amazed that anyone should question the correlations.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:32 AM

Labour supporters tend to be poor? Methinks Kier Hardy might just about agree with that, but very few others... Roy Jenkins knew more about claret than a pint of cookin'. Harold Wilson was an economist from proud LSE type tradition. Robert Maxwell propped them up when the unions embarrassed them. Tony Bliar only wore a flat cap when grouse beating as a teenager, and Lord Stansgate has been mentioned on this thread previously, (defended by me for a change.)

As we are in the realm of mythical statistics, let's bring a few mythical figures into it. Alf Garnett was a working class Tory, made believable by both the magic of Johnny Speight and the simple reason that he was in many ways very typical.

I could rattle on forever, and in the final analysis, yes Richard, there are more "rich" members of the conservative party than "rich" members of the Labour party. But two things to ponder on;

1. The gap is blurring and most people under 30 wouldn't see Labour as the crusading party of social justice. They had Bliar as PM when they developed their social conscience.

2. People are not the sheep they used to be. More people are, (about time too) thinking before voting. Less people align themselves on the political pendulum. This is why no party had an overall majority, as traditional voting is becoming less popular.

I reckon that is all good, I really do. It makes a petition against tax dodging on the basis of your political persuasion about as relevant as a Prime Minister standing on an airstrip in Croydon waving a piece of paper.


Oh, and one more thing. As the OP (getting used to these abbreviations now, I must be getting sad...) has stated in an earlier thread that somebody with a rifle overlooking the Palace of Westminster is a good idea... You seem to share views with the aforementioned fictional Alf Garnett. He put it more eloquently though. "If you want to achieve true democracy, you have to be prepared to shoot a few people."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:06 PM

What about all those socialists with letters after their names, and brass plaques outside their offices, proclaiming their name and lettering?
You know the ones I mean, the ones that insist on telling you, that they're working class
☺ ☻

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

Al, if you think no-one's paying attention to you, I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM

'Less people align themselves on the political pendulum'

You can hope Steamin', you can dream......

Like I say, I think you're missing the point. Its not about party politics.

Look how the interest rate has been up and down in this country in living memory, the unemployment rate similarly, spending on public works and infrastructure, there have been incentives for business and disincentives......

the only one constant in all this upheval is that the rich of this island have always been very very rich.Could this be the key to our problem...?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:19 PM

Willie - stop with the Aunt Sally shy.

If you don't understand what a statistical tendency is, ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:18 PM

""Don, we know perfectly well that there is a tendency for conservative supporters to be rich and labour supporters to be poor""

Yeah mate, if you keep on saying it long enough you might even convince yourself, but that doesn't make it true.

The Alan Sugars and Robert Maxwells of this world have propped up Labour for the last 45 years, and there are more of them today than there ever were. The House of Lords is loaded with examples enjoying the fruits of their investment in Labour.

All that aside, where was your sense of moral outrage during the last twelve years when the New Labour twerps had the chance to deal with tax avoidance?

It would apppear that Labour were not interested in doing anything about it, but I didn't see you foaming at the mouth.

No mate, it's not the tax dodging, nor is it any of their policies, it is the mere existence of Tories that incenses you and has you foaming at the mouth.

Maybe not a champagne socialist, perhaps an Asti Spumante one with aspirations?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:49 AM

"the only one constant in all this upheval is that the rich of this island have always been very very rich.Could this be the key to our problem...?"

Problem is Alan, I can imagine Lenin pondering on that whilst he was in exile. Further problem? Russians pondering on it since 1917, when Lenin stopped pondering.....

Richard, Richard, Richard. If I want to know what a statistical tendency is, I doubt I would ask a conveyencer. Anyway, you might charge too much for the advice and I wouldn't want that to bother your social conscience.   

My limited knowledge of being able to read and assess the contents still leads me to think that Richard is making a link between being a conservative and being a tax dodger. Sorry, but despite being thought of as a troll for daring to question his logic or motives, I really do have an issue with this dangerous non democratic way of thinking. Wasn't it Labour, and especially Harriet Harperson who preaches inclusiveness, diversity etc? Conservatives are loved by their mums too. Oh, and without them, social programs to look after the more vulnerable in society couldn't function. Same as they couldn't function without the tax paid by many supposedly Labour supporters.

People, not political labels pay taxes. People, not political labels dodge taxes. People increasingly vote on merit rather than tradition. Slowly but surely, we are becoming a democracy, and you know what? the fuzzy wuzzies don't like it up 'em! If democracy only works when you like the result, stop engaging with a system you clearly don't understand. Leave voting to the grown ups, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:57 AM

Well Willie, perhaps you will tell Don what a tendency is, since he seems to think that it is the same as a 1:1 correlation.

If there was any point in your reference to a "conveyencer" you might want to learn how to spell it.

Tho odd part, Willie, is that you then go on to make the case in favour of persons paying their proper taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:15 AM

Fair do's with the spelling. I suppose if I go out of my way not to be civil, I may at least watch what I type... (I am also a bugger for starting sentences without a capital, but blame the left shift key on my keyboard.)

Paying proper taxes? Yep, that's me. Always preach what I practice.

My accountant ensures I never break the law and pay my dues. That way, I can sleep at night. Yeah, it isn't nice losing your allowances, it isn't nice paying 50% on some of the personal income, it isn't nice wondering if the government are using it wisely. But you know what? I can't complain. You have to be earning it to pay it.

Funny how contributing without complaining makes you the anti Christ around here... Perhaps, as I choose to be anonymous, I should pretend to be hard up so I can whinge with the rest of 'em.

I like small government, but with the caveat we need to ensure the more vulnerable are catered for. But sitting on your arse refusing to engage or work is not being vulnerable. Sadly, habitual benefits living is with us, and in some ways always has, even back to the church poor fund.

I don't know how we address that, but blaming those who pay huge tax bills of not paying enough ain't the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM

Thank goodness many people will not suffer the 50% tax rate in 2010/11 because either they or their accountants had the good sense to income shift!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:02 AM

Thank you for helping to make my point, Bozo.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:26 AM

"Slowly but surely, we are becoming a democracy"

How can you be a democracy when the people you elect do not do what they categorically said they would do when they were being elected. And even if you accept that circumstances may make demands on a party after an election, how will you know which promises will stand and which will be broken?

This is not a democracy, it is a lottery and anyone who saw Question Time last night will have an idea of the anger it has caused.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:45 AM

This thread is rubbish.This individual who started it will go to extreme measures in an attempt to impress. Unfortunately, he impresses no one, and only made a fool of himself. I see him as someone who feels rather superior, constantly name dropping on threads of the old upper class. His schooling appears to be mixed, public and private. All private would make him appear too privileged, public school, gives him that democratic touch. He seems to get off with saying whatever he wishes without reprimand here, his reply to any bruising intellectual combat here is often offence personalised attacks. His yearning to go socially higher than the rest of us is evident. I ask him why the need to assert his superiority here when no one is contesting it?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:38 AM

Thank you for helping to make my point, Bozo

?????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:46 AM

Do you fancy trying that again Richie, starting with getting the facts right, proceeding to expressing yourself accurately and working on towards some show of rational argument?

But you got one thing right. I do indeed feel superior to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:49 AM

Perhaps I should tell all my clients that regretably, as Richard Bridge does not approve of minimising tax liabilities, even in accordance with current tax legislation brought in by his beloved labour governments, they should pay at the top marginal rate!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:50 AM

And yet again...

The assumption that the more you pay in tax, the more you are hiding. Just think, if I was as paranoid, I wouldn't have taken advantage of the opportunities living in the Western World gives you.

Change the record, it's getting rather tedious.

Anyway, unlike M'unlearned friend, who normally goes out of his way to be correct, I for one can distinguish between a bonzo and a bozo.......

If democracy isn't working, then what would? Oh and if your answer is putting me on your bonfire, then forget it. "We" own the police and army. (I am being accused of being part of a system, so might as well enjoy the benefits....)

Now then, didn't someone mention champagne a bit higher up the screen? Sounds good to me. Get a nice verve out of the cellar and into the drinks fridge for later. Sit and ponder on what the lower classes do of an evening, what what..

ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:09 AM

A Merlot I think for us, all the way from South America!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:34 AM

I won't claim "Use of home as office" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 10:53 AM

This is why I left the Conservative Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM

""This is why I left the Conservative Party.""

Then you missed the point.

The argument here is not about the Conservative Party per se.

It is about the fretting and fuming of a wannabe rich man who believes that all evil resides in that party because he isn't as rich as some of those he decries.

His use of pejorative and vituperative language toward those who do not share his bigotry is well documented, as well as his expressed wishes as to the manner of their, and their families, deaths.

He is a long established personal friend of mine, and it saddens me immensely to read some of the vicious responses he has posted to other Mudcat members.

I do not, and never will, attack him personally in the way that he has made his own, but I do, and will always, attack his hard wired prejudice, and his unpleasant mode of discussion.

He is thankfully a very rare bird, a lawyer who has nothing but contempt for the rule of law, and openly advocates revolution.

Perhaps he should think a little about the consequences of his words, were they uttered in the kind of society he would prefer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:15 PM

I didn't miss the point at all, I was referring to other posts rather than yours and RB's personal squabbling.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:12 PM

He has to be one of the most cantankerous men I had ever known. This government has a job to do (clearing up after Labour in this case), you can count on him confronting anything to do with change in a negative way. In fact, "negative" is becoming his middle name.   

Its lunacy that 2 strangers go back and forth all day arguing over a news story concerning people they don't know and will never meet. I suggest he is ignored.
There is an abundance of anti government sites where he can complain happily about anyone or any government policy. Recently he is posting outrageous claims with as much slander and defamation as possible to create conflict.

I recall an old teacher of mine telling us "Whenever one has anything unpleasant to say, one should always be quite candid."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:20 PM

Any lawyer should be aware of the areas in which the law is dysfunctional.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:23 PM

And of the ways in which justice is not being done but ought to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

""Any lawyer should be aware of the areas in which the law is dysfunctional.""

As you are so fond of telling us, "words have meanings", and there is a difference between "The Law" (which may or may not be, wholly or in part, dysfunctional), and "The Rule of Law", under which we are all expected to conduct our daily business, including the business of amending and refining "The Law.

""And of the ways in which justice is not being done but ought to be.""

You are on dangerous ground now. It has been established for Lord knows how long that the courts administer The Law. Were you not paying attention?

And exactly whose justice do you assert is being served by lawyers advocating the kind of vandalism and thuggery which took place yesterday under the guise of a peaceful student demonstration.

I note that the Media today are playing up the case of the "student?" who is in hospital suffering an intracranial bleed caused (so they say) by a blow from a police baton, while at the same time ignoring the policeman also in hospital with injuries described as "serious" by hospital staff.

Which of the two do you think will get the justice you wish for, the member of a rampaging mob, or the member of the vastly outnumbered police presence attacked and injured by that mob.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:20 PM

It's a very sad day, when the police are the villains.

WTF has gone wrong with our society.

It seems that violence is acceptable from the general public.

I don't wish any injuries to anybody. However the police are paid to bring law and order to our country and it seems that the general public think that they shouldn't.

Well, I will stand up and be counted and say that the police have my blessing to sort law breakers out and allow decent citizens to feel safe in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:38 PM

Water cannons, that's the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:21 PM

The police must always have our support.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 05:55 PM

"And exactly whose justice do you assert is being served by lawyers advocating the kind of vandalism and thuggery which took place yesterday under the guise of a peaceful student demonstration."

Oh, did I say that?


The Dicean concept of "the rule of Law" seem to have escaped you.




And as for "wtf has gone wrong with our society?" - when you have to ask that in the face of the cuts and threats to our future that the haves seek to impose on the have-nots, you REALLY have a cognitive dysfunction.


Don: you irrationally assert that conservatives are best in your own self interest. I have heard and seen you say that you have always been better off under the conservatives. I might well be better off under conservatives (until they wholly wreck the country and economy) but I accept that as a part of a society (much as I am at times tempted to desert it) I ought to support the disadvantaged. I vote my conscience, not my wallet - and believe that you fail correctly to weigh yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:34 AM

The police must always have our support.

Bit of a glib statement. There are regimes around the world where the police are instruments of a repressive state. If ever that came to be the case in this country I'm not sure that assertion would hold true.

Same goes for the army and any service, company, group or individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:44 AM

Richard
Can you stop being insulting.

My comment is about people that think the General Public are above the law. They are not. Violence is violence and is against the law. The police are there to try and stop such people and help to keep the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:02 AM

Arthur_itus, ignore Bridge, It would appear he gets a free pass from Joe here to say whatever the hell he likes, other get their posts deleted. Last week he hoped I would die a slow painful death !

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:55 AM

Q. What's the difference between God and a lawyer?

A. God doesn't think he's a lawyer

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:32 AM

Wasn't just me then...

One very positive thing that has come out of this thread is that common sense and rational thought can be typed into a discussion board after all! Some very good common sense arguments here against the politics of envy that keeps rearing its head.

It is a pity that Richard Bridge focuses his undoubted intelligence in such a negative and what appears to be a paranoid way. It is one thing to stereotype people because they are different, but it is clearly another for them to say such people have no rights in his Utopian wonderland.

I say again, as a point to the original thrust of his thread; Are you saying that the more taxes you pay, the more voluntary taxes you should be paying?

Luckily, we have a system in this and most other countries of progressive tax. Hence the 40% and 50% personal tax kicks in at certain points. This is, as far as I can tell, the fairest way to address the issue, and in the real world, helps put Richard's mind at rest.

Mind you, I have just been reading a magazine with a wonderful quote. I can't remember who it was attributed to but it said; "Giving your money to a government is like giving whiskey and car keys to young boys."

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:10 AM

"Well, I will stand up and be counted and say that the police have my blessing to sort law breakers out and allow decent citizens to feel safe in this country."

Sure, tell that to Ian Tomlinson's family. Do you think they give a shit about you? Be in the wrong place, at the wrong time and you'll have zero recourse against any consequences of their actions. Horse charges in Whitehall? Pathetic, as are the mealy-mouthed attempts by the met to cover up their intimidation and incitement to violence.

The police are in real danger of becoming the paramilitary force Thatcher always fancied them being; an arm of the state rather than guardians of justice. Labour have helped them on their way, as who can forget the coppers confiscating Tibetan flags because Blair didn't want to upset a Chinese dictator?

True progressive politics in this country has always started with movements on the streets, from people challenging the impositions of a small clique of self-interested, often wealthy or powerful individuals. We have a rich and wonderful history of both individual and collective dissent, from the Peasant's Rebellion, John Lilburne, the Levellers, The Diggers, the Chartists, the Suffragettes, William Wilberforce etc etc So Chaz and Camilla's car got a bit of a kicking? How sad. At least the people doing the kicking will be the ones paying for the damages.

After the second world war the people of this country had a had enough of fighting and dying, they threw out Churchill and from the ashes and carnage of conflict, the dream of creating a better world gave birth to the NHS; a true mark of a progressive society, with free health care for all regardless of personal circumstances, paid for by us as a society. It can be done, even if the this and the last government desire to destroy it for the short-term gain of the few.

Sometimes what seems like 'the politics of envy' might actually be a genuine desire to make the world a better place for all of us who live here; believe me, some people do genuinely care. This isn't some attempt at taking the moral high ground for point-scoring purposes, but a genuine desire to see people happier and safer an d living in a fair and just society, the proponents of this world view are a varied and disparate group of people driven by altruism for it's own sake.

There my never be a utopia, but it's worth battling to avoid sinking into the dystopian nightmare of a world where only free markets, unrepresentative and undemocratic private companies and toffs decide the fate of billions.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:17 AM

"You are a cheat!" shouted the lawyer to his opponent.

"And you're a liar!" bellowed the opposition.

Banging his gavel loudly, the judge interjected, "Now that both lawyers have been identified for the record, let's get on with the case."

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM

""Sometimes what seems like 'the politics of envy' might actually be a genuine desire to make the world a better place for all of us who live here; believe me, some people do genuinely care.""

Please disabuse yourself of any naive notion that Richard Bridge really cares about a fairer society.

His aim is the destruction of the Conservative party root and branch, for no better reason than his hatred of anybody whom he deems to have gained any advantage of wealth or education greater than was available to him (though I suspect the British taxpayer Paid for most of his education).

He is apparently unaware that the Conservative party could never win an election, were it to rely only upon rich Tories.

For every Tory millionaire there are some thousands of Tory voters who are middle or working class, many rather worse off than Mr Bridge.

This, incidentally, is also true of both New Labour and LibDem voters.

The kind of society he would achieve by doing away with rich people would inevitably be near identical to the regimes of Soviet Russia (which was such a great example of socialism....NOT), China, and North Korea.

The joke is that in any such society he would be among the first against the wall.

I don't sneer at, threaten, or wish a painful death on New Labour and LibDem voters, so why should I have to put up with being referred to as a Tory Sodomite simply because I do not roll over and agree with him?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:57 AM

Don, I'm not interested in your personal spat with Richard. I was talking in a wider context and seeing as you are both eschewing debate for winding each other up I'm off. Best of luck to you both.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM

I don't think it is a personal spat SJ, in fact it's probably the finest post so far on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:25 AM

One cannot look back, amd make progress forwards. You will surely trip over something, if you do that.
History is an object lesson, and not a rule book.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:35 AM

Don, I had en excellent education thank you and the UK taxpayer paid for one of my degrees in whole and the tuition fees for another and some but not all law school tuition fees, and that's all. I do however firmly believe that university should be free and that there should be some subsistence grants, and that these things should be paid for out of general progressive taxation (more general than we have). But none of that is the point here.

The reason that I object to conservative politics is that in general the objectives of the conservatives seem to include an unfairer society. I have no idea why you should say that I do not want a fairer society (save that I do indeed look down on those who cannot be bothered to learn to speak or write properly - but then I do also on those who refuse to address pure or applied science).   I do however think that the effective destruction of the conservative party would be a big step towards a fairer society.

I am baffled why you might not want a fairer society - but the only reason I have ever heard you give for wanting a a conservative government (NB, this differs from not wanting a socialist one) is that you have personally always been better off under the conservatives. I can't see how that could be. If you want to see social housing, a free NHS (including dentistry, that would be nice too), a welfare state and decent state pensions, legal aid (it needs some reforms, but not the ones it is being given) all these things are or have been opposed or sabotaged by the conservatives. Even if it could be so, is it a worthy motivation?

None of these things, however, are central to the purpose of the thread.

The petition, as I accurately reported, was about conservative tax dodgers. That is a fair representation. As I have explained above, we know that conservatives tend to be richer than other voters by simply looking at the constituencies where they do well and those where they do badly. And we know that the rich avoid (and very likely evade) more tax than others for the very simple reason that there is more in their estates that is subject to the intended tax take - unless you want to argue the somewhat improbable suggestion that the rich are more honest than the poor.

The reason I refer to you as the conservatives' catamite (I don't think that sodomite is the right word - I don't see you allegorically buggering them, rather the other way round) - is that you appear to prefer to be subject to their practices which bear more harshly on those in your position than the very practices that they oppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:39 AM

Let's see, company with one director who is the sole shareholder, wife has no income, profit £90,000. Ok Corporation tax is paid at 21% on that.

Director takes salary to cover personal allowance but at a level where no National Insurance is paid - say £5700 and draws a dividend of £63,000. He will pay higher rate income tax on a chunk of that - bad news.

But make your wife a director and giver her equal shares, then she takes the same salary and half the dividend - result no higher rate tax to be paid. This is the law Richard Bridge, and it's going to be a long time before a labour government reverses what it legislated 13 years ago!!!!!

Oh yes, Corporation tax is reduced by 21% on the salaries to the directors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:41 AM

""I might well be better off under conservatives (until they wholly wreck the country and economy) but I accept that as a part of a society (much as I am at times tempted to desert it) I ought to support the disadvantaged. I vote my conscience, not my wallet - and believe that you fail correctly to weigh yours.""

Mine, being considerably lighter, it much easier to assess, and it is true that Tories tend to leave me more cash in my wallet and the freedom to choose how I spend it.

Labour would claim to look after me (as one of the "disadvantaged" to whom you refer), but the price (total control of my means and a lack of understanding of my actual needs) is higher than I am prepared, so I shall continue to do my bit by voting against the concept of the "Nanny State" (run by goats), and for the freedom to choose how and where to spend the slightly larger sums I have available when my side wins.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:59 AM

""For every Tory millionaire there are some thousands of Tory voters who are middle or working class, many rather worse off than Mr Bridge.""

You don't seem to have any intention to address this fact, preferring to rely on your unsubstantiated guess as to the proportion of rich tax avoiders in each party (and bear in mind that tax avoidance is LEGAL.

I simply do not believe that you not take advantage of any opportunities legally to reduce your own tax burden, and neither do I believe that there is any other self employed individual who does not.

The difference between you and the rich Tory tax avoider is merely one of degree and opportunity.

Moral outrage is unbecoming unless one practises what one preaches.

From my viewpoint you are part, even if only a small part, of the problem.

It is one thing to pontificate on the gfailings of others, quite another to put your money where your all too well exercised mouth is.

""(save that I do indeed look down on those who cannot be bothered to learn to speak or write properly - but then I do also on those who refuse to address pure or applied science).""

I regard that statement with horror and disgust. It is both arrogant and callous, and totally unworthy of one who pretends to a veneer of altruism.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:55 PM

""(save that I do indeed look down on those who cannot be bothered to learn to speak or write properly - but then I do also on those who refuse to address pure or applied science).""

Funny that I observe you to do the same - what was the quote "English is my thing"?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

PS Don, you have no idea how many things I have not let my accountant do. And you have no accurate idea of my income although possibly some as to my capital. None of which is relevant to the thread. I have never hidden £6 billion like Vodafone, I've never hidden undeclared money in a Swiss bank account, but there are, what, £200 billion there of which the conservatives bothered only to claw back £2 billion.

PS Bozo - you think its funny to brag how you (legally) swindle the state? I'm sure I know how you think of those claiming benefits who do comparable things, for you rejoice in closing what you see as loopholes for them.

PPS Don - anyone worse off than me who votes conservative is doing himself no good although possibly fooling himself - which is what I believe you do - and they are abandoning the disadvantaged. It cannot be done in good conscience.   

As to my practices - you've seen me lend my cherished Volvos long term to people (plural) stuck without a car: one never came back and one came back damaged - you maybe don't know who I pay more than the market rate for what because I think it right to do so - you've probably known me to lend cherished vintage HiFi stuff to people (plural) stuck without - you maybe don't know how much unpaid rent from whom I am not pursuing because I don't want further to harrass the unfortunate. And there's another list of things I've given away or lent, too. I'm not part of your problem. I've been part of your solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM

What utter nonsense Bridge. Why these attacks on the Conservatives ? I know exactly who to blame for this mess: Labour, and specifically Gordon Brown!

It was Brown, as chancellor who allowed the banks to take more and more risk with OUR money.It was Brown who allowed the formation of all these banks "too big to be allowed to fail"It was Brown who, despite being in a boom, spent more than we were bringing in in tax.

It was Brown who, showing his utter incompetence in understanding the facts about capitalist economic policies, proudly declared the end to boom and bust – it should be changed it to boom, boom, borrow and bankrupt!

Dont start blaming the condems for this muppets incompetence.

And dont go saying "it was a global problem" -the boom was as global as the bust, but I see double standards of the worst kind: Everything that goes right is down to me, everything wrong is "global" – pathetic. The reason we were so badly hit was down to his cosying up with the banks and allowing them to live the lifestyle we allowed them to: billions in bonuses knowing full well that the reserves were not sufficient but equally kknowing that they had become so big that we, the tax payers, would have to bail them out when it all went pear… Had he supported manufacturing, agricutlure, technology and all the other components of a well balanced economy as much as the champagne swigging chancers in the city we would have been more resilient to the crisis.

The truth is Gordon Brown was not the financial genius he convinced himself of. Remember the 10p tax fiasco? Anyone with a GCSE in maths could tell that that was always going to prejudice the low earners.

He betrayed his office, the country and the people. Even worse, he claims to be a socialist: New Labour did absolutely nothing for the working class other than condem them to a fate of minimum wage, give benefit handouts and poverty, and labour supporters like yourself, are blinkered and bigoted, still you continue to come out with this rubbish in Labours defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:51 PM

""I've never hidden undeclared money in a Swiss bank account, but there are, what, £200 billion there of which the conservatives bothered only to claw back £2 billion.""

Now it's a very strange thing to find myself talking to a lawyer who hasn't grasped that the above is not avoidance, but evasion which is definitely illegal.

Since New Labour failed to attempt a remedy in thirteen years, it seems unreasonable to slag off the Tories for not having produced one in seven months and a day.

Perhaps you can use your crystal ball again and give us your best guess as to how many of those account holders voted for, and donated to, New Labour, and how many voted for, and donated to, the Tories?

NO?....I thought not.


""anyone worse off than me who votes conservative is doing himself no good although possibly fooling himself - which is what I believe you do - and they are abandoning the disadvantaged. It cannot be done in good conscience.""

Make up your mind. According to your protestations here and on other threads anyone worse of than you is one of those disadvantaged.

As to your comment about looking down on people:- "Funny that I observe you to do the same - what was the quote "English is my thing"?""

There is a world of difference between looking down on a perceived inferior (which is the tenor of your original comment on the subject), and objecting to someone trying to teach Granny to suck eggs.

I look down on no man alive, and I defer to no man alive.

Which is why I can't subscribe to your concept of a fair society.

My idea of a fair society would be one in which both Labour and Tory voters were treated with the same respect, and given the same rights and responsibilities.

In your fair society there would be no Tory voters, which is a tad too close to a dictatorship for my taste.

You believe what you wish about my deluding myself, but you have no right, nor should you have the right, to prevent my so doing.

That is called democracy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 07:17 PM

Actually, Don, there have been a number of tax schemes that turned on the limitations of the obligation of disclosure. And your suggestion is perhaps that non-disclosure is not tax cheating? Or what, exactly?

By deluding yourself (and ignoring the fact that in a redistributive tax scheme the government takes money from those better off than you and applies it for your benefit and in some cases gives it to you) you don't only disadvantage yourself but also all the other net beneficiaries of a society that did not revolve round dog eat dog.

The facts so far indicate that the Con-Dems have no wish to make tax work. And that's not surprising for the perfectly rational reasons I have set out above which you ignore, preferring to go after aunt Sallies.

Your attempts to define the disadvantaged by reference to me are irrational and futile.

Get it through your head - if those who ought to pay tax but evade or avoid it did pay that tax, there's be more money, lots more money, more than the benefits clawbacks ever look at, to pay for the NHS - which you and all of us need, for benefits and pensions which you and all of us need, etc, etc.

What we all have is a right to stop you harming society and many of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 05:28 AM

The despicable labour governments have decimated HM Revenue & Customs, which is so short staffed, to such an extent that tax evasion is unlikely to be even noticed by many of the peabrains now employed there!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 06:55 AM

Two points, small and possibly pedantic, but relevant all the same;

Can we please stop confusing directors' salary and corporation tax? Corporation tax is tax on money that belongs to and the net amount remains with, the company. If a director takes that money out of the company for personal use, they have to declare it on their P11(d) form and pay benefit in kind at their prevailing income tax rate. If they don't they are breaking the law and that is a completely different matter.

Second point is about Richard's view concerning NHS dentistry. I fully back the general NHS clause that the state should provide evidence based care. (This is advertised as a fact, but there are a few caveats around all the same.) One point that may explain why dentists are increasingly reluctant to perform NHS work. There is no clinical evidence out there to suggest that adults require a check up every six months. (There are however studies to suggest that other than identified high risk patients, every two years is more than is needed.) I used to get fed up, when I chaired a health authority (PCT) of my Director of Public Health quite rightly pointing this out when we were discussing budgets.

If The NHS stopped funding unnecessary check ups, it would release (using 2007/8 figures from Dept of Health) over £85M for patient care.

Sorry to side track the debate, but as anybody who disagrees with M'unlearned friend is being shamed into starving the NHS, judging by his post above, I thought my experiences in trying to sort The NHS out may for once be relevant. You can pay lots of tax AND support The NHS after all! Sorry if that is too much to take in.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:05 AM

"Can we please stop confusing directors' salary and corporation tax? Corporation tax is tax on money that belongs to and the net amount remains with, the company. If a director takes that money out of the company for personal use, they have to declare it on their P11(d) form and pay benefit in kind at their prevailing income tax rate. If they don't they are breaking the law and that is a completely different matter."

That's not correct, form P11(d) is for the declaration of expenses drawn and taxable benefits and consequent calculation of Class 1a national insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:13 AM

Oh and then an appropriate claim is submitted for those expenses which are incurred "wholly and exclusively" for the purposes of the business.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 07:59 AM

Like I said, P11(d) in respect of taxable benefits.

There is, as you know, a facility called directors' loan which can be for putting capital in and taking capital out during a financial year of a company. Any net negative figure is a benefit in kind and is taxed accordingly. Converting to dividends is one way of sorting the year end balance out, (assuming you are the sole shareholder, and the point above is about small businesses,) then NI is not applicable. A compliance officer may however deem benefit in kind as income and require NI. In any case, it is then your personal income, not corporation tax.

Other than salary and taking out through directors loan, there are no other legitimate ways of taking cash out. (Mind you, I held a fairly large petty cash float for a while, quite legitimately, and was asked to sort it or declare it. To be fair, I had been using it for business trips abroad and kept topping it up, and it had strayed upwards somewhat over the years. Unlike the reputation that M'Unlearned friend wishes to portray, I like the vast majority only put legitimate receipts against floats.)

If a claim is wholly and exclusively for the purpose of business, then that is irrelevant to this conversation. I am sorry, but fail to see the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:07 AM

But reasonable amounts of business mileage claimed at approved rates are never challenged by HMRC, so that's another easy £4,000 tax free, based on 10,000 miles and to make it more convincing, claim 10,245 miles with the balance of 245 miles at 25p and it doesn't need to be included on P11(d) - all good stuff.

For the moment, I would say that "income shifting" is a good tax planning move, and any accountant would be negligent if not recommending this to clients.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM

Robbing cunt.

If I as a sole trader operated like this I'd be hauled over the coals. I prefer up-front and complete honesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM

i think you guys are missing the point. The kind of amounts Richard is talking about ain't just self employed blokes fiddling a bit more petrol expenses. Common sense tells us - we are talking about huge corporations - presumably who came to England precisely because they could work the system.

I suppose in the case of multinationals - that's what they talk about at these meetings with the PM, when he sweetens the deal for them. And I guess the PM does so knowing damn well that every other country is offering similar under the counter deals.

When you think about it -its not honest. But then what is, in life.

Incidentally - did any of the rabid tory types see the article in yesterday's Times - How Unflash Gordon saved the world? How Gordon Brown Brown saved the economy of the western world by bailing the banks out. The article concludes that GB would be the best candidate for Head of the IMF, but that the partisan nature of English party politics means the tories would never accept the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:07 PM

Sugarfoot Jack shows his uneducated ignorance by the use of foul and insulting language.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:49 PM

Nothing personal Bonz me old mucker, I just wanted to see if I could provoke the sort of self-righteous indignation from a right-winger by the use of mere words as their socially irresponsible attitude to their fellow citizens. Still the same old nasties as I seem to remember from my time in the party as a young conservative.

Nice to see the tories these days lack the same moral intelligence and are the same as they ever were.

Sincere and honest apologies for the use of such boorish language.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Lox
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM

This inter party Bickering is all Bollocks.

The 38 degrees petition is 100% on the nail.

Osborne wants to plug the deficit with money raised from the poor and middle income earners.

He is not prepared to consider tax that, via mistakes in the drafting of tax law, people with good accounatnts are able to legally evade.

(yes I know the difference between avoidance and evasion)

This is because he doesn't want his millions in the virgin islands to be touched.

He's a miserly mendacious asshole.

He is also not prepared to consider reigning in bonuses paid to government employees in the recently nationalized banks.


Punish the poor.


Lying twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:57 PM

Spot on Lox.

I suppose what I meant in my rather mumbly reply to Bonz (I'm working looooong hours at the moment - I'm a sole trader Bonz!) is that I was interested to see if the right-wingers were aghast at the uncouth language, despite being far more accommodating to their own uncouth behaviour and boorishness when it comes to paying their fair share.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 04:47 PM

Bozo is correct that director-shareholders can reduce their tax exposure by playing the system.   And that those heading companies can fiddle petrol expenses where those further down can't. Tax dodgers.

Companies like Vodafone do it and similar things on a bigger scale.


If the system wasn't massaged, and the fiddles weren't fiddled (and the evasion didn't happen) there'd be a massive tax surplus to fund the NHS and education and to put benefits up to levels where there was no need for the benefits fraud that in total costs an insignificant fraction of the tax not collected.


And we know from CBI membership which party the big corporations support (in general, not in every case). We know from the correlation between poverty in constituencies and electoral outcomes which party the rich (in general, not in every case) support. And we know that those who have the most would therefore be subject (if all went to taxmanplan) to the most tax.

QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:00 PM

""And your suggestion is perhaps that non-disclosure is not tax cheating? Or what, exactly?""

My suggestion is perfectly clear to anyone who bothers to read what other people say, rather than skimming and deliberately affecting to misunderstand.

The hiding away of undeclared earnings (if earned within the jurisdiction of the UK tax system) is tax evasion, and therefore already illegal.

""If the system wasn't massaged, and the fiddles weren't fiddled (and the evasion didn't happen) there'd be a massive tax surplus to fund the NHS and education and to put benefits up to levels where there was no need for the benefits fraud that in total costs an insignificant fraction of the tax not collected.""

You still have not the bals to respond to my charge that you had nothing whatever to say about this during the thirteen years in which the Labour government ignored it, but foam at the mouth because the Tory government hasn't stopped it in seven months.

You accuse me of putting up Aunt Sallies and straw men, yet you exhibit many of the attributes of a diehard hypocrite.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:04 PM

""And we know from CBI membership which party the big corporations support (in general, not in every case).""

Evidence?.....NO!
Figures?......NO!
Statistics even?....AGAIN NO!

Just the usual unsubstantiated wild generalisation.

Until you adduce evidence in support, this is just biased opinion, void of weight and substance.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 09:08 PM

Evidence?.....multinationals take as much business as they can to places in the world where they assume no responsibility for the wellbeing of the workforce. Dear old Thatch chucked our entire mining industry in the direction of profiteers from child labour.

Figures?......you try and find a coalmine in England. a motorbike factory, a garment made in England in Marks and Spencer...

Statistics even?....anyone with an IQ above room temperature stopped counting ages ago.

Just a modicum of of commonsense requireed, Don.

Look if you want to vote Tory. You do it. But don't pretend any kind of patriot has had any lumber with that party for a generation. It has behaved disgracefully to the good tories like John MacGregor and Michael Hesseltine, who had some view of public service. The generation who fought in the war is gone. Just toffee nosed little turds left with a superiority complex to the rest of us.

And incidentally baby boomer education and welfare didn't come free. It was fought for by our fathers - tories and labour alongside each other.

it was only when the black marketeers daughter took over that things hit the skids.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 12:45 AM

To Allan Whittle - can you check your Mail on your myspace account.
Cheers
Les

Apologies for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 12:46 AM

Nothing sinister Al :-)

100

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:53 AM

Read my lips Don - there have been many tax schemes over the years that relied not on money being allegedly non-taxable but on being allegedly non-disclosable. Non-disclosure was at those times definitely not always illegal. Whether it was evasion not to pay tax on it depended on whether it was lawful not to disclose it.

But what is your point anyway? Are you arguing that because evasion IS illegal it is not wrong?

Now the reason the positions of New Labour (which I did think less of because it was not proper Labour, but in its partial defence it was boxed in by electoral commitments - to which it seemed it paid more attention than the LDs do) differ from those of the current bunch of liars is that throughout most of NL's tenure it was running a hefty surplus in a booming economy and was not slashing living standards of the poor and lower middle classes on the basis of the mantra "We're all in this together". The Con-Doms are focussing their cuts on the poor (and I'm damned if I can see why you'd support that) and are dong nothing significant to raise revenues due both in law and morality from the rich. They have sold out on catching the cheats with Swiss bank accounts and have sold out to Vodafone - and the way that that loathsome toad Sir Philip Green jumped ship from supporting NL to the conservatives just before the election is inherently suspicious in that having taken his piles of cash out through tax fiddles he doubtless knew that the successful Brown/Darling defence of the world economy after the bankers stole the family jewels would lead in a sensible world to tax rises and the closing of tax loopholes. If only Green paid the tax he should pay or have paid (remember, he admitted that he was in general in favour of British businessmen paying taxes in Britain) it would equal the savings planned by benefit cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:03 PM

Capital gains of up to the annual exempt amount, currently £10,100 do not have to be declared on a tax return. The trick is to make sure that your spouse has a 50% share in the asset at the time it is sold, so that you get £20,200 of capital gains tax free each tax year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:07 PM

""But what is your point anyway? Are you arguing that because evasion IS illegal it is not wrong?""

Your constant pretence of misunderstanding is not only tiresome. It also makes you look pretty clueless.

For the sake of short circuiting more of the same crap:- Tax evasion is covered by existing law. It is the responsibility of HM Revenue and Customs to pursue a remedy under that law in the courts.

It does not lie within the purview of government, Labour or Coalition.

Tax avoidance is different. Being legal, it is for the government to enact legislation or regulation to remove the loopholes which allow it to happen.

The coalition has had just seven months, with other matters taking a higher priority, so you do not, and cannot, know whether they will deal with it during their term in office.

On the other hand, I can, and do, know that the Blair/Brown governments ignored it for thirteen years, and whether they were in the middle of a spending boom, or in the middle of the meltdown they left behind, wrong is still wrong and they made no attempt to right it.

As somebody said above "Get off your high horse".

This country voted for a coalition, and "Bottler" Brown wimped out and refused to be a part of it because he knew there would be difficult choices ahead and hadn't the guts to make them.

In addition, in the run-up to the election he conducted a scorched earth campaign, signing the new government up to contracts they couldn't get out of (e.g. Two aircraft carriers which will have no aircraft for ten years), knowing that they would carry the blame in the eyes of the public.

Brown should be indicted for defrauding the United Kingdom, and for wantonly damaging this country with the purpose of making it almost impossible for any incoming government to succeed.


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 08:10 PM

Excellent post. There is your answer Mr. Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 09:26 PM

well its an answer, but a bloody silly one.

'within the purview of the state' - does the phrase 'pompous bollocks' not resound somewhat.

the tax authorities are agents of the government. they say an oath to the Queen, and her ministers. If the Labour or Tories are in charge - they are directly working for them. Us in the long term, the government in the short.

Cards on the table - I don't agree with Richard, but I can't see why you're abusing him.

On paper he's right. If theres the money to be had to get us out of the shit by collecting taxes better - then we should do it, rather than squeezing poor people who can't afford it. Pretending that not paying student grants doesn't matter is just sophistry - of course it bloody matters.

The trouble with richards plan is probably something to do with the fact that no one has understood the tax system for ages. that's why we employ accountants to protect us from it closing down every bloody business in England.

Quieta non movere - for whatever reason the tax dept of England is known only for its massive destructive force. madness lies within its walls - keep out!

The best thing would be to go straight to the rich for the money. Chuck the Royals off these estates and sell them to a hotel group. Flog some of the old masters in the National Gallery. they haven't got wall space for about nine tenths of what they own.

Every business has to do it. I've certainly had to do it with my little business as a musician. Sometimes you find yourself with about five PA systems, and twenty guitars and no money. So you flog some. It makes no sense having lots of assets and no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 10:25 PM

Don, two simple things give the lie to all you have said.

The government told the Inland Revenue to back off Vodafone about £6 billion.

The government by its new appointee did the deal with Switzerland that netted £2 billion and gave up on £200 billion.

And don't be such an idiot about "voting for a coalition". There was no such option on the paper. The LDs got enough seats to hold the balance of power, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

You know, although M'Unlearned friend hasn't the facts to back up his claim that CBI membership equates to supporting the Tories, I actually think that if anybody is sad enough to find out, he'd be proven right.

But so what?

The conservative party market themselves as the party of business. They offer a climate for business to flourish, (even though you couldn't really differentiate between them and New Labour in all honesty.)

So, what is wrong with big businesses supporting the Tory party? trade unions traditionally support The Labour party for the same reasons.

I fail to see the point. Both parties set their stall out and as we don't state fund parties, they need funding from people and organisations who they appeal to.

And then come the election, we decide who has the majority of the answers to most of the issues. Neither party will please all the people all time. Lib Dem have proved you can only do that when you don't have to deliver....

Oh, and whilst few vote hoping for a coalition, the outcome is a feasible one within the rules. And by no means a new phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:36 AM

Well of course theres nothing wrong with the conservative party having its tradtional power base with the rich of the land.

Frankly Arthur, if you're not rich - there's sod all for you in voting for them. If you're skint - Labour will chuck a few more goodies your way. Stuff - basic decencies that wouldn't occur to a tory as long as he had a hole in his arse. The health service, the open university, mobility allowance - all labour initiatives.

Both lots are as crooked as a dogs hind leg. But tories believe that money believe that money tradtionally belongs in the pockets of the rich, and they don't like breaking with THAT tradition.

I think therein lies the problem really. In the present situation - we need someone who will get the money off the rich. the tories won't do it. I don't think the labour will either.

You may find me climbing the cenotaph. Although I detest Pink Floyd - they could bore for Eastern Europe in the Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM

I've been hearing this argument about dispossessing the rich for more than fifty years, and it's as stupid now as it was back in the fifties.

For starters, if you take all the money in the country and distribute it equally, how much would each of us have?

Not bloody much!!

And when we decide to spend it, just what will we be spending it on?

Where is the incentive, and where is the wherewithal, for anyone to manufacture, or farm, or govern?

Like it or not, without Capital there is no Labour, no jobs, and no hope for any future.

Total equality may be very appealing, and would be great except for one thing. Every society that has tried to make it work has failed, for the very good reason that somebody always winds up giving the orders, and that coterie always ends up ruling by dictat and imposing a repressive regime.

If someone could work out how to make such a society work in any community larger than a village, it would already have happened. The fact that it hasn't would seem self explanatory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:15 AM

""'within the purview of the state' - does the phrase 'pompous bollocks' not resound somewhat.""

Weak argument?........Simple, just slag off the poster for using perfectly correct English.

Unworthy of you Al.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 09:49 AM

No you're not getting this Don.

Our lot have less than 10% of the money in the land. Some say less than 5%.

Their lot have over 90% of the money in the land?

Why is it ALWAYS our turn to buy the drinks.

In particular, why is it our turn now, when so many of us are skint?

Thats it within my purview.
(I'm not even sure I'd let you get away with it in Scrabble!)

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM

Who are "our lot" and "their lot?"

We? By "we" do you mean people who like and in the main play folk music? Or do you mean those who have less than others?

Don't drag all contributors to any level. We are all different, that's what makes the debate relatively healthy.

You know, the 90% you speak about is a bit wide. It includes all 40% tax payers and many 50% tax payers. Most of whom are happy with their lot and see redistribution of wealth for what it is, an abstraction. Redistribute it and suddenly realise it never existed in the first place. Old Lenin used to sit there wondering where the Czar kept the stash... Don got it right above when he pointed out that in order to have wealth, it has to be created.

Redistribute it and the trade and industry assets that create wealth are locked in to the purchase of Micro Chips whilst watching Cash in the Attic. (Note to self, buy shares in McCains just in case.)

Me? I'd trust the Duke of Westminster to stoke the economy more than the feral buggers who owe me rent.....

Mind you, I live in hope of perhaps one day, G20 clipping the wings of international conglomerates and banks in order to ensure a level playing field. But like the wannabe Trotskys, I can dream.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:41 AM

This is not about the redistribution of wealth. It's about who pays, and who dodges payment.

FFS - stop treating the word "tendency" as if it implied a 1:1 identity. It doesn't. Pretty good for people who think that English is their thing. Not.

The burden of the necessary bank bailout is being passed to the poor, while the rich (who tend to be aligned with the CBI and the conservatives) are not (as a general tendency) paying their dues.

And, to ram the point home, while the conservatives (who tend to be rich) have, says Don, no time to sort out tax loopholes, they can make time to legislate to kick the poor. It shows you exactly where their priorities lie.

Get the proper tax in, there'd be no need for cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 11:03 AM

What a complete load of complete bumholes Willie!

Russia had been through a revolution and a war. The Royal Family's loot is pretty much intact.

People would pay a fortune to stay in a suite in Sandringham, Balmoral, or Buck House. God knows how much each of the Van Dyke's would bring in. prince Charles's sausages are the most expensive in Sainsburys - the company must be worth something.

It's their shout.

Richard may not be talking about redistributing the wealth, I am.

Personally richard I wouldn't trust the tax people to organise the backwards movement of a fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM

The bumholes seem rather complete in your wonderful turn of phrase Alan....

In order to redistribute wealth, you have take mine for starters. Now.. you can have my old Martin D45, I rarely play now, prefer the Fylde.

My properties? You are welcome to the ones that seem to attract tenants for whom arrears is a habit rather than an issue. (really, make me an offer. been on the market ages and other Landlords are pissing themselves about Muggins here buying up "bargains" a few years ago.)

Other than that, if you want my wealth, you need an army. You see, the only army in this country tends to be loyal to the likes of me, not you.

Bit of a bugger that, I suppose, from where you are coming from. Me? Not coming anywhere, but off to the pub now to have a pint. (Or as you would possibly put it, cohorting with the proletariat.)

Just remember, it ain't just the top 5% who are content with their lot. The vast majority of decent people are only as angry as the newspapers would have you believe. A word to the wise, stop believing newspapers. I may pay far more tax than I would like, but like many people, I have to have an element of trust in government to spend it wisely. Hence supporting the principle of getting out of national debt, even if their focus either is or is perceived as being an attack on social infrastructure. I don't agree with either their priorities or their salvation, (private sector recovery) but I am grateful that we now have a government for whom debt is a menace rather than a tool. Didn't vote for either by the way. The local labour chap is a good solid back bencher who works hard and is squeaky clean on the old expenses front. I don't agree with everything he says, but an advocate of local issues is more important to me than a vote with the whips.

Oh, and those who would spend a fortune to stay in Sandringham? I thought you hated anybody who didn't give all their money to the tax man voluntarily?

I suppose we could never have a revolution in this country. Those wanting change couldn't even think through the process of keeping their bloody trousers up.

Viva la revolu.............oh, time to put the kettle on.

Nurse! Nurse! the weird beards are waking up again! "Well tell them to suck on a Fisherman's Friend!" But nurse, the shanty singers have all gone home!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

Had to tell a client working in Libya that he can't came home for Christmas - too many days in the UK you see, so he's spending Christmas in the South of France with his family - and still gloriously non-resident. Doesn't that get up your noses?????

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:26 PM

1) they wouldn't have a modern army were it not for Oliver Cromwell - not an ardent royalist. not many squaddies have that much time for the poshocracy.

2) no ones after your Martin or your panasonic telly - I'm talking about the motherlode of the country's wealth which is greater than the few baubles they allow the petit bourgeoisie, and which you seem to be neurotic about losing. Not interested in your wealth, or lack of it.

3) richard is the one who thinks the tax people are to be trusted - not me

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:18 PM

"he can't come home for Christmas" if it's all the same to you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:01 AM

""(I'm not even sure I'd let you get away with it in Scrabble!)""

Check your dictionary!!.......You'd lose!

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:13 AM

I haven't got a Panasonic telly?

Actually, I am more neurotic about making sure the wealth of the nation is governed by those who understand the symbiosis of Adam Smith funding the dream of Bevan.

And I doubt they have beards or spend all day going green at the gills looking at those with a bit more...

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:27 AM

""FFS - stop treating the word "tendency" as if it implied a 1:1 identity. It doesn't. Pretty good for people who think that English is their thing. Not.""

I've just been back over my last eight posts, and I can't find the word in any of them. The closest I can get is "tend to leave me more cash in my wallet".

I can't be arsed to trawl through a months posts to find out what you are whingeing about.

""And, to ram the point home, while the conservatives (who tend to be rich) have, says Don, no time to sort out tax loopholes, they can make time to legislate to kick the poor. It shows you exactly where their priorities lie.""

And if you wish to quote me, please do me the courtesy of doing so accurately and in context.

13th December 08:07

""The coalition has had just seven months, with other matters taking a higher priority, so you do not, and cannot, know whether they will deal with it during their term in office.""

Not quite the same as your deliberate misinformation, IS IT?

You are showing all the standard Labour prejudices and bias, and a sizeable quantity of their lack of manners.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:35 AM

""not many squaddies have that much time for the poshocracy.""

Well anyone who ever listened to the accents and the names of many officers above the rank of lieutenant, whose men would, and often do, follow them to hell and hopefully back, might find that statement suspect at the very least.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:42 AM

i used to teach service mens kids.

A sergeant once warned me about his son. he explained, he's probably picked up army ways from me. the unofficial motto of the the army is - yessir! nosirr! three bags fullsirr! Stamp your foot! and then do what you bloody like.....

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:02 AM

'And I doubt they have beards or spend all day going green at the gills looking at those with a bit more...'

Probably cos they've already got a lot more. See footnote about politicians being crooked as a dog's hind leg.....

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 10:55 AM

And replace them with what?

Whatever you replace them with, you replace them with the same.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So best not get het up about it. At least the present lot understand the need to eventually spend taxes on a social program rather than spend it all on interest payments. Short term difficult, yes. Priorities I can't agree with, yes. the Tories using it as an excuse to push idealogical dogma, yes. But overall, at least they are trying to address it even if their priorities need modifying.

Anyway, we talk of rich versus poor, Tory versus Labour, socialist versus realist blah blah. But in the final analysis, politician is non divisible. They are politicians first and political flavour second. Prescott soon got the croquet set out once he had his grace & favour country pad....

Went from Ginsters to taste the difference pies too for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 12:22 PM

Bonzo, see the new Christmas TV and Radio Times are in the shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Petition re: conservative tax dodgers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:52 AM

Yes, Mrs Bonzo bought the Christmas Radio Times last week!