BS: Young Earth Creationism

Subject: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM

A few months ago, in another thread, I was asked about "Young Earth Creationism". I did not then have time to answer fully, but I will try to do so now. My purpose is to explain, to those who are interested, what Young Earth Creationism is.

There are many views about the origin of life, the universe, and everything.   Young Earth Creationism ( henceforth "YEC") is one of those views. The "creationism" part of the name indicates that it requires supernatural intervention.   The "young" part refers to the belief that earth (and the entire universe) is thousands of years old (rather than billions of years old).   

In contrast to YEC, the theories and hypotheses that make up the current consensus view at most scientific institutions do not require supernatural intervention, but do require the universe to be billions of years old. I am going to refer to these theories and hypotheses as "Ancient Earth Naturalism" (henceforth "AEN"). AEN is sometimes informally referred to as "evolution". However, AEN includes more than Darwinian evolution. It also includes the cosmic inflation hypothesis of the Big Bang theory, the solar nebular disk model of planetary formation, geological uniformitarianism, the "out of Africa" hypothesis of the origin of Homo sapiens, and so on.   

There are hybrid views that, like YEC, require supernatural intervention and, like AEN, require an ancient universe.

In the following posts, I will list some beliefs which are part of Ancient Earth Naturalism (AEN). I will also list the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) response to those beliefs.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 02:55 PM

Oh good, I could uses a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

The following beliefs are common to most Ancient Earth Naturalists (AEN):

1. The universe had a starting time; its age is finite.

2. The very early universe was greatly different from the present universe. There was a very early period of extremely rapid change followed by a long period of relative stability which continues to this day.

3. The present stability of the universe is relative. Change is occurring and is expected to continue until, eventually, the universe will no longer support organic life.

Young Earth Creationists agree with Ancient Earth Naturalists on belief #1, the belief that the age of the universe is finite rather than infinite (Genesis 1:1)   In AEN, belief #2 is accepted in the form of the cosmic inflation hypothesis of the Big Bang theory. In YEC, belief #2 is also accepted, NOT in the form of the cosmic inflation hypothesis, but as the six days of creation (Genesis1:1-31). Either way, there is extremely rapid change initially, followed by relative stability (uniformitarianism for the AEN folks; God's "rest" on the seventh day for YEC folks - Genesis 2:1,2). Neither the ANC nor the YEC folks expect the universe to last eternally in its present form. There is ongoing debate among AEN folks about whether the universe will end in fire or ice. The YEC folks say "fire" (see II Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare).

That's all from me today. Tomorrow I hope to post some more comparisons between AEN and YEC. I look forward to your comments.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:32 PM

Spare us the waste of time and yourself the embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:33 PM

A comment: If the age of the Earth is approximately 6,000 years, Kent Davis, that would imply about 60 100-year old people- and far fewer than that if you accept that the ancients each lived close to a thousand years thmselves. Does that sound logical to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:56 PM

I see we're in for a wacky new year!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM

Host (John Cleese: Good evening and welcome to Stake Your Claim. First this evening we have Mr Norman Voles of Gravesend who claims he wrote all Shakespeare's works. Mr Voles, I understand you claim that you wrote all those plays normally attributed to Shakespeare?

Voles (Michael Palin): That is correct. I wrote all his plays and my wife and I wrote his sonnets.

Host: Mr Voles, these plays are known to have been performed in the
early 17th century. How old are you, Mr Voles?

Voles: 43.

Host: Well, how is it possible for you to have written plays
performed over 300 years before you were born?

Voles: Ah well. This is where my claim falls to the ground.

Host: Ah!

Voles: There's no possible way of answering that argument, I'm
afraid. I was only hoping you would not make that particular
point, but I can see you're more than a match for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:11 PM

I believe that YEC should henceforth be called Young Earth Creation Hypothesis. The acronym for that sounds about right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

I'm not sure about these 60 100 year olds. I think the relevant fact is the parent's age when they first have children, so something more like 200 generations is probably the figure to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (retired)
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:15 PM

"Oh good, I could uses a laugh."

You could use a grammar lesson while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:29 PM

The problem with followers of this YECH belief, is not that they are not Sincere, for they all are, but they are trapped in the circuitous Logical Loops of the 'Law of Fives' - their conclusions will always support their preconceived beliefs.

This is not 'Science', but 'Pseudo-Science' - Real Science always has unexpected twists and turns, often appearing to reverse itself, as new things surface, and fundamental concepts are rewritten and often discarded.

Religion sponsored Pseudo Science, while it needs to get more convoluted and self contradictory, will always never surrender certain basic premises, for that is what defines it as a subset of 'the Law of Fives' style Philosophy. Buddhists still believe as part of their core belief system taught every day, that Anger creates fire and volcanoes, and other such human actions cause water (floods, etc), and all of the other natural disasters - if we only change our behaviors, all will be right, and we can reverse Global Warming!. Science has passed this by.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:36 PM

Come back Erich von Däniken. All is forgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:56 PM

Not even pseudoscience. Just dogma. Fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: framus
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

Are young earth creationists not just very junior worms?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM

Is this for real or is it some sort of trollish 'wind-up' (English slang for provocation)?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM

I could also uses improved typing skills. But a laugh will be nice.

Cuckoos early this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:58 PM

Shimrod... Not nice to call someone a troll until after a thousand posts. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:14 PM

If the Earth were really young it wouldn't have so many wrinkles.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Some Young Earth creationists claim that the lack of support for a Young Earth theory in professional science journals or among professional science organizations is due to discrimination and censorship.[8][9][10][11] However, the established scientific consensus is that young Earth creationism has no scientific basis. For example, a joint statement of InterAcademy Panel on International Issues (IAP) by 68 national and international science academies lists as established scientific fact that Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old and has undergone continual change; that life, according to the evidence of earliest fossils, appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin.[12]

According to a Gallup poll in December 2010, around 40% of Americans believe in YEC, rising to over 50% among Republicans but reducing strongly with level of education (only 22% of respondents with postgraduate degrees compared with 47% of those with high school only or less).[13]"

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:23 PM

Yes, Richard,
Sumer is icumen in
Lhude sing cuccu!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

40% of Americans

That's frightening... can't be true, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:49 PM

Doesn't exactly increase faith in democracy, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

I read somewhere that the US Constitution guarantees the right of US citizens to believe whatever they want, no matter how irrational. Some believe this to be mandatory!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM

Another cult I guess for inclusion at:

http://www.rickross.com and

http://forum.rickros.com

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

Sorry that should be:

http://forum.rickross.com

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:57 PM

Could the 2007 stats below be true?


•58% of the US adult population never reads another book after high school.
•42% of US college graduates never read another book.
•80% of US families did not buy or read a book last year.
•70% of US adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.
•57% of new books are not read to completion.
http://www.parapublishing.com/sites/para/resources/statistics.cfm
(data quoted by Para Publishing, who is quoting Jerrold Jenkins)

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Do the math

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:13 PM

And yet people believe everybody should be encouraged to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:19 PM

I wonder if the YECHs know about Oahspe?

I think we should introduce them... and then explain to both about The Urantia Book....
and then stand to the side and watch the fun....

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:21 PM

An interesting point Q.

A 97 year old neighbour of mine, once told me she never voted after her husband died (when she was 75). She said that many people tried to convince her to do so, that it was her duty, but she never caved in to their persistance. The reason she gave was as follows: She said that she never followed political issues, nor the politicians after her huisband died. So, she told me that she did not wish to vote and cancel out the vote of someone who did follow such things, and would know much more than she did on the issues and the people seeking office.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Janie
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

Hello, Kent.

Am curious to hear and learn more.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

I have to say.. it's 'interesting' to see theories and ideas like YEC propounded, and to wonder exactly how they persist in the face of mountains of data showing why & how such theories cannot possibly be taken seriously in THIS day and age.

It says something about humans that the are ABLE to look strong evidence in the eye, and go on to 'believe' in something based on stories and wishful thinking.

...and I have been giving serious thought to the concerns about giving everyone the right to vote.... **sigh**

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: maeve
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:37 PM

Hi, Kent. As Janie said...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for that Janie.
Kents stated purpose was "to explain, to those who are interested, what Young Earth Creationism is".

It seems reasonable and polite to hear more about something that seems to have captured the interest of quite a few folks, regardless of ones views.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:12 PM

I don't see any need for anyone to post a lengthy explanation of "Young Earth creationism" here at Mudcat. It's already been explained at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM

"I don't see any need for anyone to post a lengthy explanation..."

Possibly because someone is seeking to promote such a theory thru wider distribution. I DO wish that intentions were made clear, instead of suggesting that it simply a 'matter of interest'.

Reading the article on Wikipedia should clarify it for anyone really interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:30 PM

Science Vs Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:47 PM

Wait! Wait! Where did Mr. Davis go??? Of course the universe is only 6000 years old! That is so obvious! Hear him out!

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:50 PM

______________________________________________________________

Thank you for all the thoughtful comments. Ebbie, as usual, asks an interesting and insightful question. I was raised as an Ancient Earth Creationist, believing that Genesis is true and also holding that the universe is billions of years old. So, yes, the idea that the universe is thousands of years old does seem strange to me. That says something about my raising, and it says something about my psychology but, of course, it says nothing about which view is correct. Einstein's theory seems strange to me. I believe it is true in spite of how strange it seems.   

Here is another belief common to both AEN and YEC:

4. All living humans share a common paternal ancestor and a common maternal ancestor. These common ancestors lived thousands of years ago (not millions of years ago), and therefore all humanity is one species, one "kind", one "blood".

For several generations, Ancient Earth Naturalists have been slowly moving toward the YEC position on this matter.   Some early Darwinists (though not Darwin himself) held to a polygenetic view of humanity; they thought that the races were actually different species. By the time of my childhood, in the 1960s, polygeneticism had mostly died out, but the mainstream view then was that the most recent common ancestor of humanity had lived well over a million years ago. Currently, many Ancient Earth Naturalists believe, based on mitochondrial DNA studies, that the most recent common maternal ancestor of humanity lived about 200,000 years ago. Many Ancient Earth Naturalists believe, based on studies of the Y chromosome, that the most recent common paternal ancestor of humanity lived about 60,000 years ago. Young Earth Creationists, as you know, generally believe that we are all children of Noah.

Kent
___________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:10 AM

So, yes, the idea that the universe is thousands of years old does seem strange to me. That says something about my raising, and it says something about my psychology but, of course, it says nothing about which view is correct. Einstein's theory seems strange to me. I believe it is true in spite of how strange it seems.

Surely the question was 'does it sound logical to you?' Hardly synonymous with 'strange'. Perhaps you might try to explain why your beliefs appear to defy logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:22 AM

Well, Smokey, of course it sounds logical to me. I wouldn't believe it otherwise.   

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:24 AM

"polygeneticism had mostly died out"

Ah - can't find the link - but very recently a new genetic line was found in a cave in Siberia, and it now appears that there WAS polygeneticism - that several different lines including Neanderthals and 'modern' man as well as this older strain, of which the modern closest relatives are still in New Guinea, all interbred.

Then there of course is this theory of The Other People, which The Biblical Literalists really cannot deny, if they wish to be consistent .... :-)

But then people can believe whatever they want, as long as they stop trying to bully and interfere in Science, for I am a FSM follower...

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:25 AM

Here are some more beliefs which are common to most Ancient Earth Naturalists (AEN). Following them is a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) response to those beliefs.

5. In our present experience, energy does not arise spontaneously from nothing.

6. In our present experience, matter does not arise spontaneously from nothing.

7. In our present experience, life does not arise spontaneously from non-life.

We do not see matter or energy spontaneously appearing from nothing, nor do we see life spontaneously arising from non-life. Sometimes we see what appear to be exceptions to these rules, but Isaac Newton and Louis Pasteur (among others) showed that these apparent exceptions are illusions. Either such events never occur or, if they occur, they occur exceedingly rarely. YEC is compatible with the idea that these events NEVER occur. In contrast, the currently accepted form of ANC requires that, at least once, matter and/or energy emerged from nothing and requires that, at least once, life arose spontaneously from non-life.   Nevertheless, ANC agrees that we do not see such events in our present experience.

Good night!

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:35 AM

"In our present experience, life does not arise spontaneously from non-life."

Viruses .... ooops.... they are non-life (cannot reproduce by themselves) - they can invade and become life and reproduce, while destroying the host....

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:50 AM

Those of you responding to my YECH acronym...I hope you realize I was being ironic. Maybe some things need to be heard rather than read.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM

Well, Smokey, of course it sounds logical to me. I wouldn't believe it otherwise.

Obviously, but though you find YEC 'strange' and at the same time 'logical' you haven't really said why. What makes a person take on this belief? Persuasion? Logical process?

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:18 AM

Foolstroupe,

Viruses are not an example of life spontaneously arising from non-life. Whether viruses are life at all is a matter of debate. Yes, viruses are replicated in living cells. So are prions, and most would agree that prions are not life.

The cells in which viruses replicate are certainly alive. Viruses, some would argue, are an example of life arising from life. Others would argue that viruses are an example of non-life arising from life. Clearly they are not an example of life arising from non-life since, even if viruses are considered to have life, they derive that life from other life.

But I'm not here to debate that. If you and Louis Pasteur want to tangle, go for it. I've got my hands full trying to explain Young Earth Creationism.

Smokey, I am just trying to explain what YEC is. Saying why I beleive it is not really my purpose. However, I will answer your question, but I can't do it tonight. I've got to get up in less than 5 hours. Good night.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:33 AM

Thank you, Kent, I'll appreciate that. "What" is a simple question easily answered, but "why" is another matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 06:39 AM

Oh goody.

Two things about this thread excite me.

1. Richard Bridge and I may after all be on the same wavelength.

2. Pointing and laughing at people who exhibit irrational tendencies has been a popular sport since the days of paying to visit Bedlam. Long may the tradition continue.

Two things about this thread fail to excite me.

1. Having a pop at more mainstream religion is more fun than silly notions such as this, as you can outrage more people.

2. See point 2 of the the 'excite" bit, but without the last sentence.

Noticed how Kent dodges the insults and tries to answer as if he were rational? I have a brother in law who is happy clappy. He acts in a similar manner, (apart from when he told me I will burn in Hell.)

They visited over Xmas and I couldn't help myself. We have a nativity set of figures in porcelain and I hid the crib / manger and put some baby bell edam cheeses in there instead. Told him it was the little baby cheeses.

Subject: RE: BS: Young Earth Creationism
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM

The point is, Kent Davis, why are you telling us all this? If you succeed in convincing us all who will benefit?