BS: Pakistan today and yesterday

Subject: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:05 PM

A cautionary tale . . .

Pakistanis Mourn a Once Tolerant, Relaxed Nation

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:32 PM

Tolerance and secularism in much of the Middle East have become victims of the unrest caused by the war to oust Saddam Hussain.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:33 PM

Add- and Indian subcontinent.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM

Indeed Q. But, was/will the strategy eventually work to the advantage of the war wagers?

I suppose we may never know within our lifetimes - only hope that it will someday lead to peace for all if it can. Doesn't seem likely but hope is all there is at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM

Let's face it...

Osoma has left his mark on the planet... Seems everywhere you look it's the right wingers who are callin' the shots...

US, case in point...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:48 PM

Religious extremism in Pakistan pre-dates the war in Iraq by more than fifty years. Look up Jamaat-e-Islami and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:59 PM

It's not a question of whether or not religious extremism existed it's a matter of more and more folks willing to take it up in the here-and-now... That is the scary part...

Look here in the US... Look at Utah voters impeaching judges for the decisions they make the the extremists here in our country don't like??? That is scary... I mean, there's a reason why we have 3 branches of government but religious extremists here in the US don't care... Like Osoma, the end justifies the means...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 10:00 PM

I don't think that the terms 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' apply to what is happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As bobad says, religious extremists (conservatives)- really those who hang on to the beliefs and culture of 1000 and more years ago- have always been there. They were willing, for the most part, to let a degree of secularism arise so long as they were not affected in their areas.
With the attempt by the Russians to take over in Afghanistan, and the Pakistan government's attempt to strengthen control in the frontier states where the old beliefs were strong- the younger people, who normally would be prone to relax their views to some extent, became politicized as the result of intervention by the West and willing to listen to Al Queda and Osama, and to take up arms- hence the rise of the Taliban which now is a force that I doubt can be defeated as long as the U. S. keeps forces in the region.

The secularists, the Sufi, and other moderate Muslims are in retreat and it will be at least two generations before they can recoup their pre-invasion position.
Moderates are leaving if they are able. Attacks against moderates and Christians (once tolerated) in Iraq and even Egypt are increasing. Northern India may brcome embroiled.

The policies of the west have been a disaster in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 04:42 AM

The rise of fundamentalism in the region is not merely a reaction to US foreign policy of the last decade. It is a result of the failure of nation-states in the region and the failure of secular ideologies such as nationalism, socialism, etc. Taliban, Wahhabism, etc. are more an 'invented tradition' than a return to past beliefs. Islam 1000 years ago was actually much more enlightened than anything you will currently hear from Bin Laden.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:12 AM

We know all about invented tradition in England.

All traditions lie blasted in pieces in the face of the changes technology imposes on us.

They kept their their ancient traditions and beliefs and pretty much starved. We threw away our saints days and whatever, went onto shifts and provided for our families and looked for spiritual values within art and raising the lot of the common man.

Traditions signify to us, for the main part, the bad old world of subservience.

In a way blaming Bush and Blair for policy is like blaming the rider of a wild stampeding horse. They're only pretending to be in control.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice.
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 05:17 AM

Go learn your history.
Pakistan was created because of religious intolerance.
Partition took place in 1947

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 09:40 AM

This situation and what brought about the killing of the Pakistani Government Minister is actually all about water, the request that a Pakistani Christian woman was asked to take water to Muslim women working in the fields and their refusal to accept the water when it was brought to them, on the grounds that the water bearer was unsuitable through caste and religion.

The blasphemy charge is concocted and is a complete fabrication.

It has got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Western involvement in the area, it has got nothing whatsoever to do with the Soviets invading Afghanistan thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:11 AM

While the blasphemy charge seems likely to be fake, I don't know that we know or can prove that.

BNV - do you assert that the intolerance in 1947 was reciprocal, or unilateral?

Subject: RE: BS: Pakistan today and yesterday
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM

Mutual Richard, but intolerence nonetheless. Many people died for no good reason, on both sides.