BS: Fact, Not Fiction

Subject: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: saulgoldie
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:52 AM

I am getting really tired of people making up facts and tortured, other universe "logic" to support their positions. I throw down the gauntlet to fact-check this:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-3-2011/diane-ravitch

And I haven't heard any credible counters to this, either, other than "nanny, nanny, boo-hoo; your mother wears army boots":

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph


And, let us not forget this. Did this really happen, or not? Was it a pivotal event leading to growing unionism? Are there not *many* of "our songs" that deal with the rights of workers? Is this fiction?:

http://www.historybuff.com/library/refshirtwaist.html



Clearly, the public soapbox that demonizes those of us who live in a fact-based world is currently not dominated by fact or logical progressions. People owe it to themselves and their fellow travelers on "spaceship Earth" to get *out* of their amygdalas and into their intellectual brains to make the world a better place.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Saul, facts become factoids when they are used as arguments for political points.
The only way to counter this is investigative reportage that can be counted upon for
veracity and in today's media circus, this is hard to do.

Somehow, people, away from the control of corporate media, find a way to make their voices heard and bring the real issues into focus. Hence, union songs.

The public soapbox will always be there in the form of newspaper editorials, TV pundits,
rhetorical political grandstanding, and attempts to capture the public "mind" through propaganda. Making the world a better place is a noble goal but in order to gather evidence that is reality-based, requires, as you have indicated, a willingness to do a little homework. Demonization is a sign of intellectual weakness, though it's important to recognize the destructive behavior of those in influential positions and isolate that, not through name-calling but information about that behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM

Cornell University has a good, factual account of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, with pictures, bibliography and interviews. The event is fact, but some discussions are loaded with slanted opinions.

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM

I read that Mother Jones editorial write-up in connection with another thread.
Fact is used to come to a laughable conclusion.
The rich nearly all are productive entrepreneurs, making jobs for those of us who make up the middle and 'working' classes.
Steve Jobs, Koch brothers, Walmart owners, etc., etc.

The labor market is undergoing change that has temporary downsides.
Workrs are being replaced by automation, the growth of cheaper labor sources in countries like China and India, and the unstoppable globalization as peoples come closer to common ground.

Japan has high wages so has lost the mass goods market, but strong education policies and entrepreneurship has helped, but as China, etc., follow the same path of higher wages and strong education, Japan is showing signs of slowing down.

No real answer; we are in a post-industrial period and problems will be many until the new methods take over. I am afraid that our surplus populations are in for harder times.

Mother Jones and that ilk offer no solutions, only complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM

I believe it was Hitler who said that people will believe the "BIG LIE"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM

Rose Freedman, the last living survivor of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, died February 15 at the age of 107.
(NY Times, NPR, other reports (already in a mudcat thread?)
http://www.npr.org/programs.watc/features/2001/010325.triangle.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: pdq
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM

I read some of the stuff at the Mother Jones website linked to above.

One glaring defect in their presentation is the use of "income" to decide who is the target of their venom. The real "rich" people have "assets" worth millions or billions.

The football player who made millions last year may have a career-ending injury next year. The rock star with a million-seller last year may not be able to get a gig at a roadside bar a few years from now. For the graph shown, both my examples would be in the dreaded "1 % of income earners" but for a very short time.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

"Venom"? Where is any 'venom' in the article? No one is suggesting the 'rich' should not BE rich. They can drive Mercedes and fly on private jets and have 3-4 homes. They can buy cases of expensive wine...fine! Just require them to support the economy in some equitable ratio to their income.
The article shows how VERY unbalanced the income brackets are, and how the gap between rich and 'barely getting by' is growing.

The rich are using some of their riches to further tilt the playing field and keep far more of their riches than is fair & reasonable....to the point of paying little or no taxes. *I* don't have disposable income to hide in the Cayman Islands...and I have never even owned a 'new' car.

The recent "Citizens United" ruling in the court now allows a 'corporation'...meaning one or more corporate executives... to act as an 'individual' and spend inordinate amounts MORE money electing legislators that act as little more than 'voting lobbyists' for corporate interests!..(which means fewer relevant regulations...or laws with loopholes they can drive a Mercedes thru!)

Let them be rich...if they can create wealth, they should get to play with it...but do NOT tell me they they generously create jobs! They try to run with as few lower-level blue-collar jobs as possible...with the least unionization and the lowest wages. They move what production facilities they can to Asia or Mexico and tie our entire economy to counties whose basic attitude towards "human rights" we don't approve of. This system makes the 'very' rich into the SUPER rich...and I suppose that can be a pretty heady feeling.

Mother Jones has an agenda... and it does promote the facts that support that agenda.... but that doesn't mean they are lying...or even inaccurate. We should be careful of what meaning we take from those statistics, but there is sure enough data there to make clear that someone is getting a bigger piece of the pie than is reasonable.....

but...I know.. WE'LL get "Pie in the sky, by-and-by"

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 10:05 PM

I don't object to Bill Gates or anyone else who uses their wealth to help others, as the Gates Foundation (which has been joined by Warren Buffett) has done. Those who squander their wealth on selfishness and opulence, who rub the workers faces in it, are the ones I really object to.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 11:13 PM

The rich create jobs. They creat jobs in Beijing. They create jobs in Mumbai. They create jobs in Manilla. They create jobs in Jakarta. They do not create jobs here.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 11:41 PM

The rich create temporary jobs.

They create temporary jobs in Beijing until it is more profitable to destroy those jobs and create jobs more profitable to the rich elsewhere.

They create temporary jobs in Mumbai until it is more profitable to destroy those jobs and create jobs more profitable to the rich elsewhere.

They create temporary jobs in Manilla until it is more profitable to destroy those jobs and create jobs more profitable to the rich elsewhere.

They create temporary jobs in Jakarta until it is more profitable to destroy those jobs and create jobs more profitable to the rich elsewhere.

The only permanent jobs they create are for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

While I suspect there are differences in the definition of a fact, it is often the interpretation ,or conclusion, drawn from a fact that leads people astray/apart, not the fact itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM

BillD has it right in saying "just support the economy"... Right now the rich couldn't care less if the economy falls flat on it's face... Actually, their actions are hurting the economy... Let me explain:

The GNP is a sum total of all the dollars that pass hands... The more a dollar passes hands the higher the GNP and the higher the GFP the higher the "growth" and the lower the "unemployment"... That's what we had going on in the 90s with high growth, high GNP and low unemployment...

And then came the Bush tax cuts which we were told was supposed to create even more jobs... It didn't... Borrowing money from China to build and sell houses may have created jobs for awhile but it wasn't real growth... It was a party with the bills being put on the credit card...

Meanwhile, the tax cuts, especailly those to the high earners went un-invested and hoarded... Yes, it made rich richer but if it was intended to "trickle down" there wasn't any trickle in that pickle...

Bottom line... There is so much cash being hoarded by individuals, Wall Street and corporations that it is now doubly hard to break out of the recession that Bush left for *US*... Recent reports, which are probably conservative, have the Fortune 500 hoarding $1.7T in un-invested cold cash... That is money that doesn't change hands and therefore a drain on growth and GNP... Factor in rich individuals with that and other cash-stashes and what we have is about $15T out of circulation!!! That is hurting the country and those hoarding it know it but don't care because they want Obama to fail because they understand that he has every intention of pushing them to pay rates that they paid in the 90s and they don't want to do that... It should be pointed out that the rich did very well under those rates but that argument seems lost on the money hoarders...

The End of Economics 001 (non-credit, remedial)...

Professor Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:25 PM

The rich only create temporary jobs?
If that were true none of us would be working here in the States.
Is there a huge disparity between the very rich and very poor - yes there has always been.
Are there rich people who earned their fortunes by creating both wealth and jobs - yes and there have always been.
I work for one who is a decent man who enjoys his wealth and treats his workers fairly and with respect.
I too object to the wealthy who refuse to pay their fair share of the taxes. I don't object to their ability to create wealth. They take chances I could never take. They see opportunities I can't see because I (like most of us) concentrate on the day to day.
Capitalism is not a bad thing.
I too object to wealthy employers who abuse their workers and position. But why does everyone assume that that is the majority? If you hate your job, find another one. If you are not earning enough money where you work, do something about it. If you have not, maybe it is your own fault. No one owes you a living.
I much prefer working for a wealthy creative man and having a roof over my head and food on my table rather than living in a tent city.
Rant over.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Who here thinks they are themselves part of Q's "surplus populations"?

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

And who thinks they are not?

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

"I am afraid that our surplus populations are in for harder times."

A chilling phrase!

Now, let's think, what shall we do with those individuals who are surplus to OUR requirements?

Leave them to rot? Enslave them? ... Come up with some sort of 'final solution'? ... No! Unthinkable! ... Although perhaps not because I, A MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE, have just thought it!!

Hhhmmm, big decision ... after all "no-one owes them a living."

But then no-one gave the planet to the rich to rape, despoil and exploit as they wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 01:49 PM

Bobert... Mum told me long ago that the best thing to invest in for hard times is cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

I am 63 and definitely "surplus". Little to no savings - my choice. I used my money as I saw fit.
I live frugally but no where near as frugally as the homeless. That may be ahead although I have sufficient family and friends to avoid it, I think. The House of the Setting Sun is only half a joke.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: pdq
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

As with many Mudcat threads, it gets had to tell what the actual subject is, but...

fact: The US people have transferred about 10 trillion dollars, over a period of many years, to oil-producing countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Little of it ever comes back in a form that we, the people, can use.

fact: We are in the process of doing the same wealth transfer to China. Trillions more US dollars we cannot use to employ Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM

Well, pdq... The rich are sitting on $15T in un-invested cash... And that is a conservative estimate... Why are they not using that cash to create jobs???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 09:03 PM

"The rich only create temporary jobs?"

All jobs are only temporary. Can you name how many different jobs that existed in your grandfather's day still exist? And the ones that don't are a lot more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM

Q here is a fact. The wealthiest 200 in the U.S. have more money than the lowest
middle and working class combined and they don't pay their fair share of taxes.

Billions are being spent on two failed wars by the Pentagon in the Mid-east coming
out of your taxes. Get those crooked contractors out of there.

The solution is easy. Tax the rich. Stop the wars. And build a fire under congress
to do something about creating employment.

Suggestion: National Recovery Act under Roosevelt. Wagner Act strengthened
to support collective bargaining. Put labor to work on national infrastructure.
Put regulations for Wall Street that have some teeth and get lobbyists for corporations out of Washington.

Overturn Citizens United.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM

Uninvested cash loses value the longer it is held.
Provide documentation for that $1.5 trillion that corporations hold.

Exxon (2007 report- (last one seen)
Total assets- 282 billion
Liabilities- 120 billion

Shareholders equity, and liabilities- 242 billon

Cash + equivalents- 33 billion at end of year- in other words, About 12 percent is held in cash.

All businesses try or would like to hold about 10 percent of assets in cash. Exxon in 2007 had 12 percent, not out of line. (Of course that 10 percent or so is with a trust or bank, so it is earning a small amount).

Try that with other corporations and they come out about the same.

Now look at these figures:

China holds about 1.2 trillion in U. S. securities.
Japan- 880 billion
UK- 280 billion
Oil exporters- 211 billion
Brazil- 200 billion
Caribbean bankers- 170 billion
Etc.
Total- 4.45 trillion. (Dec. 2010)

Total securities held by Americans- $14 trillion

Is the U. S. in hock? Yes siree bobtail!

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

"But then no-one gave the planet to the rich to rape, despoil and exploit as they wish. "

But the Fundy Xtians claim that He did just that ....

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM

What Stringsinger said.
If my memory serves me, that solution was applied once before.
And it worked.
Until The Actor came along and dismantled it.
And NOW look where we are!

Don Firth

P. S. Encore! Encore!
No, not The Actor. The Solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 08:09 PM

First of all, Q, it isn't $1.5T that the corporations are sitting on... It's $1.7T and that is just the Fortune 500 companies... Google up "$1.7T" and you'll find plenty of sources... Iv'e red it twice in the last 3 months in the Washington Post...

And, here we go again, on remedial Econ 001 (non credit, remedial)...

GNP is dependent on the multiplicity factor meaning that it isn't the number of dollars but how many times those dollars move from one hand to another... If cash is hoarded then that cash cannot contribute toward the GNP... In other words, it is wasted cash...

This is basic Econ... Not the heavy duty stuff that hurts the head...

I will say this that "credit default swaps" are nothing but racketeering of the rich to squeeze $$$ outta the pool for themselves as "commissions"... These commissions should be illegal... It is money laundering at the highest levels and just a scheme to steal money... It'd be like your buddy asking to hold $100 for him while he went swimming and he comes back and you give him $90... That is what is happening with "credit default swaps" and it is criminal... And it is billion$$$ going to the rich from the payments you make on your house... Or were making before you found the fine print that says they can balloon yer butt after 2 years and now you're losing your house because yer payment doubled...

If the US wasn't so corrupted by the rich people rewriting the rules this shit wouldn't ever happen in any civilized, moral nation...

Our country is so corrupt that it is a joke to the most of the world!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 09:28 PM

Search of Washington Post yielded no such story. Several internet blogs with figures 1.5-1.6 trillion or so; even if correct, individual stockholders would consider this prudent in a meltdown such as occurred in 2009 and is only now firming up.

Individuals as a whole have some 14 trillion in securities, which brings them interest, but is not invested in business directly- the interest may or may not go into expanding businesses; usually not in a period of stagnation.

Businesses are a matter of scale. Percentage of expenditures are more or less similar regardless of size.
Banks and trust companies are the source of most loans for smaller business start-up. These institutions depend on our savings for their holdings.
They restrict themselves to safe loans if they are smart (too many were not, e. g., contributed to the 2009 melt-down).

In other words, following the meltdown, businesses became cautious, and withheld investment except into reasonably secure openings or expansions.
Ergo, no job creation.

Corporations may have held $1.7 trillion in reserves as claimed, but the rest of the public, private or small business, was just as tight with its $12 trillion in holdings, and so were the foreign investors (another $5 trillion).

During periods of downturn, cash and low interest holdings are increased, since investments are shaky, and no business wants to tell stockholders that its judgement was poor and that it made risky investments.

It takes time to dig out of a downturn. If the creek don't rise, perhaps better times in 2013, perhaps not.

More importantly the other factor, as noted before, is the interaction of globalization, growth of new economic powers, increased automation, and need for a change in life style. Like the Industrial Revolution, drastic change is inevitable.

I don't know the outcome, but I expect tough, competitive times are ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 10:18 PM

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck, Q... $1.7T in "reserves"??? Bull!!! What do they need "reserves" in that amount for, Q???

I mean, let's get real here??? That is un-invested (hoarded) cash...

But here's the other part of Econ 001 (remedial, non credit): If the corporations are hoarding cash and 400 American families are hoarding 50% of the $$$, then exactly how is it that the US economy can recover and ever see 5% unemployment again???

Well, the answer is: It can't...

This is why we are seeing a jobless recovery... Who is recovering??? Well, the banks are... How can they do that if they are not making loans??? Hmmmmmmm???? The corporations are because they have bought up enough Republican politicians to write bad tax code that makes it more profitable to move their operations overseas while paying little or no taxes here in the USA... If I were in charge, I'd tell them if they don't like it here to get the fuck out and never come back... But, no, they gotta stay here and try to drain the last bit of wealth outta America...

This is reality... Everywhere you look it the greedy rich rigging the deck, buying another congressman... Meanwhile, Joe Sixpack has not ahd a raise in 30 years and that is if he's lucky enouhg to have a lousy job...

This is reality for 300,000,000 Americans, Q... Ya'll can play games over what you call hoarding but, ,like I said, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......

Tell ya' what... Income inequality brought down Egypt and income inequality has brought about 100% of every revolution going back thousands of years... There's also the other reality and that is once these things start they are like toothpaste... They don't go back in the tube to easily...

Now you can play the "reserves v. un-invested cash" games but that's all it is... Games... Every other proletariat society had it's own lingo to make them feel all righteous and free of guilt... History is replete with examples...

You are fooling no one... Just as all the others...

Bottom line: If you don't like it here then get the fuck out and go live where ya'll are exploiting other people... Go live in China... Or Pakistan... Or Bangladesh... Just leave *US* alone if you're not into trying to make ***THIS*** country succeed...

Right now... All I see the rich doing is trying to rig the deck to make it fail!!!

Square business!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

No point in adding to my comments, the thread would chase its tail, as so many below-the-belt threads do on mudcat. I agree with little in Bobert's economic world, which does not embrace current realities.

One sidebar- Those who have moved their investments into copper, silver, gold and other commodities (large increases in their prices over the past six months) add nothing to job or business creation. Of the $14 trillion held by investors (in commodities or just drawing interest or under the mattress), the corporate 500 (or so) hold just one-seventh of the total. In other words, business cannot grow and hire until investors as a whole move out of commodities and savings and into growth industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

"Growth" is a dangerous delusion leading to a destroyed, overpopulated world with insufficient resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: DebC
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:53 PM

Interesting Harold Meyerson column in today's Washington Post: Be sure to check out the links to his sources.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM

I too object to wealthy employers who abuse their workers and position. But why does everyone assume that that is the majority?

Possibly because of the amply documented historical record of labor history in the U.S. & elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

Yes, Deb, I read that column this morning and I found it the best work he has done, ahhhh, maybe forever...

Seems like if we can get more folks on board then the Tea Party folks would flock to the left...

I mean that seriously...

Yeah, the right and the Repubs have tried their best to keep those ho aren't doing all that great thinking that it the fault of unions, Dems, socialists or presidents who were born on, ahhhh, Mars...

The real deal is that the folks who pay the BIG $$$$s to get these knuckle draggin' knuckle draggers elected are the folks who are keeping the folks who support the Tea Party down...

Great article... I have a copy in my car and will run off about a 100 of them tomorrow just to give out to any of the knuckle draggin' Tea Party folks I meet...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

Creeping "non-factism."

http://www.alternet.org/story/150382/the_biggest_threat_facing_the_country_today_is_fast_creeping_ignorance?akid=6735.26137.5YQx

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: saulgoldie
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:08 PM

More fact:

http://www.truth-out.org/social-security-video68750

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:17 AM

Robert Reich has written many books on the subject Saul posed.

His last two books are excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:00 AM

My brother, I'd say without a doubt has Aspergers. From a little boy he has been able to make money so easily. His whole world revolved around it naturally. He was never encouraged in this way at all by either his mother or his father. As he grew up he continued to make more and more money. He'd buy and sell, go to the rubbish dumps, where he knew all the men who ran them, buy up other people's trash, then do it all up, sell it on at a profit, sometimes a whacking profit too. He went into an 'ordinary' job, but never got on with it, because first he had no interest in it, and second he's severely dyslexic. (never diagnosed though) In his lunch-hours he'd be off round the second-hand shops in London buying, selling, whilst his mates were in the staff canteen.

He was almost late for his wedding, because it fell on a Saturday and heck, that was one of the best days at the rubbish dumps, sooooo that's where he went to that day, same as ever. His honeymoon was spent on a barge, going around Norfolk, into every antique and second-hand shop there was. He was frustrated when he got back because he wished he'd taken his car, then he could have gone to new rubbish dumps too.

He stayed with the insurance company he was with for many years, even though he never progressed in it, and loathed the job, because...he got a very, very low mortgage with the job. The fact he had enough money to buy his cottage outright wasn't enough, because then he'd have lost out on a good financial deal.

To this day, as far as I know, his life continues in this way. He has a family and is married, but he never goes anywhere, other than his usual haunts to buy and sell. His idea of a good day out is spotting something no-one else has spotted. It physically hurts him to part with money, really upsets him, and as a child he'd beg me for change because he didn't want to split a 10shilling note, or a £1 note...and like a fool, I'd hand over my half-a-crown to him...He also sold me the lights from his bike, because giving things away also upset him..and again, because I idolised my older sibling, I gave him the money.

In his back pocket he always used to carry his wallet, stuffed full of money, sometime up to £700 or more in, and that's going back 20 years or more....but he drove an old banger, lived in a small cottage for many years, had a settee with no springs because he couldn't find the right 'new' one he wanted, that would match his cottage *exactly*....He never enjoyed spending money...yet he'd do anything for anyone in the village, particularly the elderly.

He had no time for people his own age who had no money, saying he'd had to work all the hours God sent, but of course, he hadn't had to at all, he simply can't stop working, because to stop is to lose out on profit waiting to be made.

When Dad got emphysema I realised he needed a chair with a good straight back to it, one that he could sit upright in as comfortably as possible, to enable his lungs to function in the best way they could...I found one in John Lewis..it was £120 (again, I'm going back now around 30 years, so that was a LOT of money)...but I knew it would help Dad, and I'd looked at so many others...I asked him to help me buy it, go 50/50 on it...but all I ended up getting from him was £20..."Sorry, don't have much money at the moment.."

He lost me 16 years back as a sister, over £10...his meaness finally proving too much. I told him to frame the £10 and stick it on his wall, look at it occasionally and remember me.

He's always said that when he dies, he'll leave a treasure map and a spade behind....

It's the HAVING of money that is his reason for living, you see, not what he can do with it.

An intensely intelligent person, put down by his teachers, who didn't understand dyslexia back then, perhaps made angry and out to prove to the world that he was anything but stupid...but then, he was already money orientated, long before secondary school had made him feel a failure..It was purely a natural brain pattern...

It took me a long time to get over losing him, as I'd always loved my brother, but had been puzzled why I got no emotion back...He could be very thoughtful occasionally, for instance, he was the first person to come visit me when I had my son, before even my husband was there...as he knew what having Josh meant to me..and when Dad had his stroke, he couldn't cope, literally couldn't cope, disappeared for days...refusing to believe there was anything wrong with him at all, despite the doctors giving a terrible prognosis at the time....

15 years later I rang him, shortly after I moved here. We talked as if nothing had happened..and at the end of the phone call he said "Well, it's been nice talking...don't leave it another 15 years before you ring back."

And that was that.

My brother is just one example of the Asperger brain. He wouldn't mean to be mean, would be aghast if people thought that, but it's simply not in his psyche to be otherwise. He has no thought or interest in my life, how I am, if I'm struggling or not, because it's not on his horizon. The only thing that is, is Today's Profit....

And those are the kind of brains, I believe, who now dominate this world....They are supremely intelligent, but often terribly cold when it comes emotion, and totally unable to empathise with others...Profit is their Oxygen...

My brother isn't deliberately ruthless in his outlook, just blinkered towards everyone else I think, uncomprehending of why others don't make money as he does. Unable to understand. He told me once that he'd no more leave his money to his daughter than fly, as it's up to her to make her own money...I hope he's mellowed on that over the years, but I've no idea.

Corporate Bastards have a lot of this going on, coupled with outright ruthlessness. They have no interest in the population, despise those who are not like them, totally unable to understand that different brains think in different ways. They cut wages, cut fair and loyal working conditions back, if not out altogether, and see their workforce almost as robots, constantly looking for other areas where they can cut back, cut a contract, cut a penny here, a tea-break there, or remove a Christmas bonus all round...They don't see the unfairness and inequality, they simply see the extra profit that comes into their bank account and this gives them the security and satisfaction they so crave, let alone fulfills the orgasmic visions of those who are the most ruthlessly competitive of all.

Money for me holds nothing, other than what good you can do with it, how you can help others out...It's probably why I haven't got any..LOL, but I'd rather be the way I am than how my brother is, because to spend your entire life with every waking thought being about making a fast buck is to miss out on so much, for me. But he won't feel that way at all, for his whole point to life IS that fast buck, and that is what makes him happy, making it, having it, keeping it and watching it grow and grow and grow....

Asperger's is of course on the up and up...at an alarming rate, and as the world becomes more dominated by those kinds of brains, it will become tougher, more ruthless and more divided.

The Creative Brains, the gentle empaths have to fight back in their own way...but it's hard for them to do that, because they are at complete polar opposites to the very dominant, single track brains..but it's starting to happen because the Dominant Ones have way overstepped the mark now, without perhaps even realising they have...

It's going to be a battle, that's for sure...but one that HAS to be fought for the good of us all, even those at the top, for in the end, if left to their own devices, they will destroy not just our world, but theirs too..

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:26 AM

Quite fascinating - there seem to be people who don't understand that skewed distributions of wealth and income are dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 07:31 AM

It does irritate me it if the press, journalists or newcasters get even the very small facts very wrong by not taking the trouble to do their research properly. It seems to happening more frequently than it ever used to but people seems to accept it now for what it is. Rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM

I have to take issue somewhat with Richard Bridge's assertion that skewed distribution of wealth and income is dangerous.

I might agree in a country where the polarisation of haves and have nots is extreme, such as Middle East / African dictators sitting on mountains of gold whilst their population starves. However, in The West, the safety net is a bit higher than that. So whilst The Duke of Westminster and a single mum in a tower block are poles apart, both have free access to healthcare, enough money to feed themselves, running water, etc. Also, luxuries can be affordable, such as television, internet access, transport.

I don't try to keep up with the Jones's. Many people may be happier if they didn't too.

I get rather agitated when comfortable people use words like "dangerous." I accept that society based on the need for growth is not a Utopian model, but it is the nearest we have to it. The multinationals who don't give a damn need customers in order to remain multinationals. So perhaps they do give a damn, even if it is based on mutual need.

There is huge inequality in many countries and it doesn't have to be so. However, in The West, we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If a few have a lot in order for the many to have work and a social program, then I am comfortable with that. We have governments to walk the tightrope of ensuring inward investment coupled with ensuring the state can afford its social program. I shout at the TV screen too, but at the end of the day I accept they are trying to run the country, however much we agree / disagree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

I'm with Richard on this one.

Ian, people haven't been treated this badly in decades. I too believe we are now reaching a highly dangerous situation, with many people around who are desperate...

Desperate People do Desperate Things.

If a few have a lot, as you say, then it is ONLY because those who work for them are working damned hard, often for shite pay and under shite conditions...and you know what? I think many folks out there are totally beyond fed up about how they're being treated by The Fat Cats..

Marie Antoinette didn't see it coming...and neither are they...

I'm actually starting to get this knot in my tummy about The Royal Wedding...just wish they'd cancel the entire thing and go off and do it privately...because that is not going to be the wonderful day they're hoping for I don't think...

This is utterly the wrong time to have a Royal Wedding, a 'Royal' anything that costs millions to stage and will be seen by many as having their noses rubbed in the shite even more.

But...what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

Hi Lizzie,

Obviously neither you nor I know anything then.

The Royal wedding will attract attention for the masses and the majority of the world will seem to enjoy it as if it were their family and friends. I won't but you'd be surprised how many will.

Also, if you look back in history, the Romans and Greeks kept the masses in order by staging games. mmm.. Olympics here next year.

I agree that the gap is widening between rich and poor but whilst we can all point to individual examples, most people are more comfortable with each generation here in the UK. Central heating, available food, healthcare, a social landing net.. Oh, and a consumer led society that leaves us all begging for more instant gratification. And that's the rub.

If the tragic events in Japan had happened here, I reckon the newspapers and politicians would be busy sorting out the blame instead of sorting out the issues. That attitude has rubbed off on the rest of us, looking for somebody else other than ourselves to blame for not living like the suburban situation comedy families on the telly.

There is no need for any Marie Antoinette malarky because there is no system out there that will give a better lifestyle, because as well as money, you need freedom. With freedom comes opportunity and with opportunity comes growth.

There is a difference between arguing alternative policies such as the TUC march the other day, and wanting to change society overall. We have a democracy and whilst I don't agree with the present government on so many issues it would take me all day to list them, I also accept that coalitions are a feature of our democracy, and the only way to try and get your way is to use your vote.

The only draconian policy I would have if I were in power would be to make it illegal not to use your right to vote, like I hear they have in Australia. if you vote and more people want a different system, you either accept the system for the next four / five years or spend it in a depression. Simple choice. there is no alternative, as our little trots on this forum would find out if there really was one. Sandals and real ale T shirts would get you first against the wall for being subversive......

Oh, and sorry, people have been treated far worse for many decades. Income is lowering, yes, but there again the country is skint. Really skint. Like more than a credit card problem skint. The budget and the past financial statements coupled with my wife and I working in the public sector, as well as my other business interests means we are over £20K worse off next year than two years ago. But you know what? My main concern is that the pain had better be worth it in the long run. We are lucky in that our lifestyle isn't going to be affected by it. Whether people want to hear it or not, the richer you are, the more this government is taking from you.

Now that seems to conflict with the tabloids take on it, but luckily I have a calculator and can work it out for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fact, Not Fiction
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:48 PM

If you hate your job, find another one. If you are not earning enough money where you work, do something about it. If you have not, maybe it is your own fault. No one owes you a living.

Both self and spounse are disabled and unable to work.

Both of us receive Social Security Benefits.

She receives a small Disability Benefit, that began SIX F*IN YEARS after application, and seven years from the stroke that prevented her from working. (No back benefits were paid when it was finally approved.)

So if we come up short, we go earn a few bucks.

But since we don't know we might earn a dollar, we receive our benefits as scheduled and at the end of the year:

For every dollar earned we must return a dollar to the disability fund because we received an "excess payment," until we've earned more than the total benefit.

For every dollar earned we must return half a dollar of the Social Security benefit we received, since "we don't really need it," until we've wiped out all of the Social Security benefit.

The dollar is still "earned income" so we must still pay income tax on it.

I make the effective Federal tax - what we have to send to the Fed for each additional dollar earned - to be about $1.68 at an absolute minimum. Surely I can get rich if I do that enough times.

But then we do have to pay the State around $.40 for the state income tax on that dollar.

Sounds to me like the real "land of opportunity" where anybody that works real hard can have a decent living. I'll try really hard and maybe I'll even get rich. And I do appreciate the encouragement to "get out and get a job," although it would be a lot easier if I could stand up and walk to do it.

It does perhaps seem a little unfair that someone with a million dollar income pays at most only 30 cents on the dollar after writeoffs and deductions, but I'm probably about the only one in a situation like mine so I'll try to not sound like I'm complaining.

John