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BS: Fired for not believing in hell
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Subject: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:47 PM Clergyman fired for not believing in hell It's funny that Christians just can't reconcile their religion with itself and for good reason: it doesn't make sense. So this chap gets fired because he doesn't believe in hell. His conclusion derives from believing in an all-loving god. An all-loving god doesn't need a hell. But if there's no hell, then this Jesus business is a lot of silliness. Christians warn against universalism and yet an all-loving is just that--universalism. What can you say about a god that would send you to hell because you didn't believe in Jesus? Imagine that--you're burning in hell in eternal torment. Hitler is turning on the spit next to you and says, "Millions were murdered on my orders. Generations of psychopaths and extremely violent misfits have found each other through my legacy of hatred and have killed untold thousands of innocent people in my name. What are you here for?" "I didn't believe in Jesus." Doesn't quite work, does it? God just can't be that nasty and petty. So we then conclude that even if you didn't believe in Jesus, God is okay with that. As long as you were a good person you'll get into heaven. But then the Christian says, "Okay, wait just a doggone minute here! I was born a Christian and raised a Christian. I went to church every Sunday and read the bible cover-to-cover. You mean to say I did all that and yet you get to go to heaven same as me having never done any of that? Not on your afterlife, buddy! If you didn't do it my way, you ain't goin' no way!" It's the old dilemma of faith vs. works, as I understand it. Is it your faith that makes you acceptable or is it what you did while you were here fretting your hour on the stage? Christians just can't decide and no wonder--they put themselves in an impossible position. George Carlin put it beautifully when describing his Catholic upbringing and being taught that there are 10 things that god has ordered to never, ever do and if you dare disobey and do any one of them, you will feel the terrible wrath of god and be sent to hell to burn for all eternity...but He loves you, He LOVES you! That's basically the Christian religion encapsulated right there. I find it very amusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM
The Angels Are Voyeurs God is a tender pervert and the angels are voyeurs Watching us forever, their vision never blurs They make us then forget us for a hundred million years And then by chance they glance at us and something in them stirs They find us so provocative, so weak, so full of pride Our cleverness, our nakedness, fills them with delight The way we hold our coffee cups, the way we pick our words God is a tender pervert and his angels His angels are voyeurs And when the tender pervert is too busy to admire us He sends his angels down to pass amongst us and desire us He gives them little notebooks where they note each quirk and boast Our foolish pride and pompousness turn him on the most When we're throwing temper tantrums When we're giving up the ghost The pervert keeps his distance But his angels, his angels move in close It intoxicates the Spaceman, watching how we thrill ourselves Not by sex but by devising new ways to kill ourselves He sees the way we tamper with the things we most depend on The danger stands his hair on end and gives him a hard-on He calls his angels down to watch that slut the world get hers God is a tender pervert and his angels His angels are voyeurs The pervert and his angels hide amongst the stars and watch And as we blow ourselves to bits the angels pump their cocks Their semen flows across the sky and forms new milky wheys And somewhere in some galaxy in less than seven days They make a planet more curvaceous and much sexier than ours Full of bigger sinners More worthy of voyeurs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM "if there's no hell, then this Jesus business is a lot of silliness" That's your first false assumption, joseff. Many people believe in Jesus who do not believe in hell. Many people also find much usefullness in the ethical and spiritual teachings reputedly given by Jesus, and again...they do not believe in hell. What you are imagining is that all Christians...or people who revere Jesus (and that includes the Muslims and many people in many other faiths)...also must therefore believe in hell and take everything in the Bible literally. You are mistaken. Some of them do believe in hell, while some definitely do not. I have personally known many Christians who do not believe in hell. Many also do not take everything in the Bible literally, but may view much of it as allegorical. "Christians warn against universalism" Some do, josepp, and some do not. Some Christians ARE universalists. "God just can't be that nasty and petty." Agreed! ;-D And many Christians would share your viewpoint when it comes to that. It is a certain type of fundamentalist and very doctrinaire Christian who believes in all the contradictory and nonsensical stuff you have alluded to such as a vengeful God who is also all-loving and a fiery hell to punish people in. But that doesn't describe all Christians by any means. It does appear to describe the idiots who fired the clergyman you are speaking of, though. ;-) They are afraid of what that clergyman is inviting his parishioners to do, which is to think for themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:18 PM Every Christian needs to ask himself or herself just how moral they are if they believe Jesus died for their sins. I wouldn't let a person die for my sins. I committed them, I'll pay for them, thank you for very much. If the Christian responds that this happened before we were born so it was never up to us to behind with then I respond that it could never have applied to us then--we weren't around when it happened so we couldn't have sinned. Was Jesus's sacrifice like this once-and-for-all-time sort of thing? He paid for every sin ever committed or ever will be committed? Okay, so if not believing in Jesus is a sin, that must have been forgiven to. "Oh, no!" says the Christian, "not THAT one!" Ok, then, Jesus didn't die for my sins so shut up already. Moreover, why should I feel any gratitude to Jesus for dying for my sins? I didn't ask him to and I don't want him to. If he took it upon himself then tough shit, I guess. I mean, if you put yourself in debt buying me a new car and I didn't ask you to or want you to, don't you dare then expect to feel gratitude. Thanks for the car but fuck you if you expect me to feel indebted. But, really, the bottom line is this: If God wants to forgive the world then just do it and shut the hell up. God must be the biggest fucking drama-queen in the universe. All this damned crucifixion, shedding blood for the redeemed and all this horseshit when all God has to do is say, "World, I forgive you." Problem solved. But no, that would be too easy. The whole Christian salvation scheme is just God's bunch of attention-grabbing bullshit. The truth is, I don't think the Christian god is very smart. Let's be frank, he's a fucking idiot. He has to be. Anyone who came up with this cockeyed salvation crap can't have an IQ over 30. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Bill D Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM Hell is important... it keeps the flock in line. What would they DO without something to threaten them with? Rewards in Heaven have never been 'quite' enough in some congregations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM i thought the article dealt fairly with the issue. i dont know any christian that is happy about hell,but plenty like myself who believe in it,s reality,as it,s in the bible. i dont find it amusing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM Never make the mistake, josepp, that everyone who doesn't think exactly as you do about everything is a complete idiot. ;-) Not all Christians buy the notion that Jesus died for other people's sins (though I think the majority of them do). I never bought it. It's not an aspect of the teachings about Jesus that makes any sense to me at all. You say that "God must be the biggest fucking drama-queen in the universe"? No...it's the people who make up the drama-queen stuff about God who are the drama-queens. Those people were mostly a bunch of ancient Hebrews and early Christians from a very different time...that is, the guys who wrote the various books in the Bible. They were the drama queens. They said it the way they saw it...I don't buy it. But there is some of it that I find acceptable. I don't buy everything our present society's authority figures say either, as far as that goes... Of course God would forgive the whole world! Why not? But those Hebrew patriarchs weren't forgiving, see? They held grudges and carried out blood feuds and believed in revenge, so naturally they envisioned a God who was like that too. You will look at the Christian religion and only see what you want to see if you're like most people, josepp. It's quite clear that what you want to see in the Christian religion is only the most negative aspects of it. That's what Hitler saw when he looked at the Jews: only bad stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: kendall Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM You shall have no other Gods before me. You have free will. Anybody lost? "Religion is for weak minded fools." (Jesse Ventura) By the way, I understand that Hell was the name of a Scandinavian Goddess of the underworld. How did she sneak into the Bible? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM ////It is a certain type of fundamentalist and very doctrinaire Christian who believes in all the contradictory and nonsensical stuff you have alluded to such as a vengeful God who is also all-loving and a fiery hell to punish people in.//// Because the entire reason Christianity existing depends on it. If you remove hell from the scenario, Jesus didn't die for your sins because he had nothing to save you from. The liberal Christian who says so what, that he only follows the moral teachings of Jesus doesn't know what he's talking about. As a moral teacher, Jesus had to be one of the worst--2nd only to Mohammed. Strip Jesus of his divinity, most of what he teaches is pure nonsense and pure status quo. There was nothing revolutionary in what he taught. For example, he exhorts his followers to resist not evil (Mt 5:39). If we don't resist evil then we must, by necessity, succumb to it. He stated that if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Mt 5:30). Who in their right mind would steal something and then blame their hand for the theft and cut it off? Jesus stated that the slave who does not do his master's bidding "shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk 12:47). Where is the revolutionary message that slavery is wrong and must be abolished? Nowhere. I would place Lincoln as superior to this Jesus. Jesus also stated that he did not come to bring peace "but a sword" (Mt 10:34). He claimed to he came to turn family against one another (Mt 10:35). Jesus also claimed that he who does not hate his family and himself cannot be his follower (Lk 14:26). And who can possibly explain Jesus' bizarre statement in Mark 4:11-12? Even the Golden Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is neither original nor particularly moral. The Old Testament already has the Golden Rule in it and Confucius was preaching it centuries before Jesus allegedly did. If the only teachings of any value spoken by Jesus can already be found in earlier religions, what the hell do we need Christianity for?? If it's already in the Old Testament, then the New Testament is a monumental waste of time. But, see, the fundies understand that much. They are actually smarter about it than the lib Christians. They understand if you remove hell from the picture, you remove Christianity altogether. Without hell, Christianity has no need to exist. Satan is the best friend and salesman Christianity ever had--far superior to Jesus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:52 PM "Party politics is for weak minded fools." - Little Hawk In my opinion, the statement, "You shall have no other Gods before me." does not necessarily refer to what you think it does, kendall. I'll explain why. The thing that people are most devoted to in their mind IS their God. That thing might be: - popularity - possessions - wealth - fame - sex - physical appearance - power over others - prestige - their romantic partner - their own ego! If it's any of the above, and it usually IS...it's getting in the way of them connecting with their spiritual source. If so, they are placing another God in front of that spiritual source, and they're cutting themselves off from it, ignoring it, and turning away from it. That, I believe is exactly what is meant by the statement "You shall have no other Gods before me." Attend first to what matters the most, and don't become a worshipper of yourself, your possessions, your money, your fame, your girlfriend, etc... Generations of literal-minded religious fanatics, however, have chosen to interpret it in the most primitive and literal way they could and have assumed it referred to gods such as Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, Krishna, Odin or some outward name FOR the same common spiritual source that all relgions ultimately seek to connect with...and which is beyond naming! That was their mistake, and they created wars and tragedies by making it and totally avoided dealing with the real challenge of life which is within themselves, not outside them in the world. That we have free will is self-evident. But how many use it wisely? If you worship your own ego, your possessions, your power or your money, you won't use it very wisely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Wesley S Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM "Hell is important... it keeps the flock in line." I have to agree with Bill on that one. That's how hell has been used by organized religions. The trouble is that a lot of we Christians don't believe in hell any more but we're still "in line". Same as all the moral athiests who are "in line" without that threat hanging over their heads.Hell just isn't useful anymore for many of us. But if someone needs it - that's fine with me too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM josepp - I'm not interested in justifying the Christian religion to anyone, because I have no stake in doing so. I don't belong to it. I don't say that anyone necessarily needs it. What I do say, though, is that you have your mind directed at looking only at what's bad about it, and that's all you can see. That's not a problem of Christianity, it's your personal problem. I have long noted the various inconsistencies you refer to in the Gospels, but I don't take them as authority, you see. I take them as accounts written down by a variety of men who all had various political and personal axes to grind. The fact that you can't see any good in Jesus' spiritual teachings doesn't say much about them, but it says volumes about your own deep prejudices against that religion. Do I expect to change your mind about any of it? Naw.... ;-) Not bloody likely! I just enjoy discussing it, that's all. I find it an interesting subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM ////If it's any of the above, and it usually IS...it's getting in the way of them connecting with their spiritual source. If so, they are placing another God in front of that spiritual source, and they're cutting themselves off from it, ignoring it, and turning away from it. That, I believe is exactly what is meant by the statement "You shall have no other Gods before me."//// Sorry but this is a typical liberal Christian reinterpretation that has no basis in fact but has been tainted by New Agey values. That is clearly not what this god meant because he goes on state the reason why you can't have had other gods before him: "Because I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God." Now does that sound like your spiritual holistic source seeking to unite with you? The meaning of that statement is very simple: If you were not born a Jew then you cannot become a Jew. You cannot have worshiped other gods because that means you are not of the tribe and if you are not of the tribe--go fuck yourself. That's what that statement means. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Wesley S Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM Joseph - Have you considered adding words like "at least that's what I think" at the end of a few of your statements? Or even "in my opinion"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM That's what that statement meant to an ignorant Jewish tribesman who was bent on slaughtering people who weren't in his tribe, yes. That's not what it means to me. Watcha gonna do about it? ;-D The people of this world, josepp, are never going to cooperate and fit into the little narrow ugly stereotypes you wish them to be confined within, and that applies to Christians as well as other people. I agree that the passage about a "jealous" God is absolutely ridiculous. If there were a universal God in existence...or in out-xistence...he, she or it would certainly not be jealous of anyone or anything, because he, she or it would not stand outside of or apart from anyone or anything...so jealousy would be impossible. As long as you are desirous of communicating on a stone age (literal) level about stuff, josepp, you and I will not be able to connect on much...but you'll be in a terrific spot to fight with religious fundamentalists till the cows come home, because they think that way too. They're literalists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM Keep in mind that religion has little to do with morals--often nothing to do with it. Religions have always been the tools of kings and emperors. Only the religion he approves of is allowed in his kingdom or empire. So it is a good cleansing tool whether it be ethnic or racial or religious or just a fat land grab. The purpose of religion, if you bother to study it, has always been to apotheosize the king. He's the son of heaven, he is god's child on earth, he is crowned by god Himself. To doubt his is to condemn yourself to hell. Royals invented religion to control the masses with. Defending something so slimey is funny on one hand and sad on the other. If a religion ever existed that taught you how to free yourself from the oppression of your ruler and to be your own king, you can bet that religion didn't last longer than it took the sovereign to send in his soldiers to kill and torture those who dared to practice it without his approval or consent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Wesley S Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM And you've studied ALL of the worlds religions where?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM ////That's what that statement meant to an ignorant Jewish tribesman who was bent on slaughtering people who weren't in his tribe, yes. That's not what it means to me.//// Well, it was ignorant Jewish tribesmen who wrote that shit. Why bother to put a good face on it? It's crap. What are you going to sanitize next? Mein Kampf? If it's crap, it's crap. What do you do with crap? You flush it away. Dousing it with cologne and smearing on your body doesn't help you in any way. if you really want to free yourself, then free yourself. Call crap what it is--CRAP. And flush it or bury or something--get rid of it. I have no problem with a pastor who wants to do away with the concept of hell as long as he understands that his whole reason for being a Christian has been eliminated by his own actions and beliefs. If he's prepared to accept that and move on then more power to him. But if he's going to preach New Age gobbledegook to justify keeping the religion around that he himself removed the justification for then he's an idiot and I have no respect for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM Ever taken a look at Taoism? Buddhism? Sufiism? Ever read some modern spiritual books? What you say about kings using organized religions is dead right. They used them for political advantage and to control the masses. That's how most of our present governments use things like patriotism, the mass media, marketing, party politics, false propaganda of all sorts, fear tactics, even false flag military operations...and yes, even religion! For political advantage, as a pretext for war, and to control the masses. But that's not the purpose of genuine spiritual work. The purpose of genuine spiritual work is to improve yourself on the inner level...not to control anyone else on the outer level. There have been some religions which actually did try to free the common people from the oppression of their rulers. One example was the Cathars in Southern France. As you say, the kings and churches of the time sent in armies to slaughter them, and they wiped them off the face of the Earth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM I think you may have a hostility problem, josepp. ;-) You seem to use this forum mostly to vent your rage about things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM But Wesley, he has no other Gods before himself.... :-P |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:51 PM There is more goatfeathers spoken about religion, both pro and con, than probably any other subject in the universe. A Lutheran pastor I know once held up a copy of the Bible and said, "Contrary to popular belief, this is NOT the Boy Scout Manual. It does NOT contain answers. It contains QUESTIONS!" He went on to say that, "Anyone, including members of the clegy, who claims he knows the mind of God is talking sheer nonsense!" Bright guy. He and I have had a lot of good chats. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:52 PM ////Ever taken a look at Taoism? Buddhism? Sufiism?/// Yes, I have. All those religions grew corrupt just like all the others. ////Ever read some modern spiritual books?//// Yes, but I prefer history books. Like read how and why Christianity came to Japan and you'll learn more about both Christianity and Buddhism than someone like you really wants to know. ////What you say about kings using organized religions is dead right. They used them for political advantage and to control the masses. That's how most of our present governments use things like patriotism, the mass media, marketing, party politics, false propaganda of all sorts, fear tactics, even false flag military operations...and yes, even religion! For political advantage, as a pretext for war, and to control the masses. But that's not the purpose of genuine spiritual work.//// You'll never find a "genuine spiritual work" in any religion on this planet. Whatever virtues they may have had at one time were squashed out of them a long time ago. ////The purpose of genuine spiritual work is to improve yourself on the inner level...not to control anyone else on the outer level.//// Then don't defend religion. That's not why it exists and as far back in history as you care to search you will find it has never had that purpose. ////There have been some religions which actually did try to free the common people from the oppression of their rulers. One example was the Cathars in Southern France. As you say, the kings and churches of the time sent in armies to slaughter them, and they wiped them off the face of the Earth./// Ta-da!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST,999 Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:00 PM Here I sit so patiently Waiting to find out what price Ya have to pay to get out of Going through all this shit twice Mildly edited Gospel of Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Amos Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM If you don't know the price, old chum, it makes little sense to keep paying interest! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: LadyJean Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 AM I clean houses for a living. Now and again I find something that I could, very easily, slip into my pocket, and no one would be the wiser. Now and again it's something I'd like to own, like a lovely pair of earrings or a twenty dollar bill. I must then remind myself that God wouldn't approve. Hell doesn't really enter into it. Though I have asked God, now and again, what part of "lead us not into temptation", he does not understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: J-boy Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:57 AM Will I go to hell for not believing in the tooth fairy, santa claus, or the easter bunny? It's all one and the same. I have no belief in any kind of imaginary daddy -in-the-sky. Religion is just one of many things our species needs to outgrow to give us at least a fighting chance at survival. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:44 AM If heaven is being eternally and freely in the presence of God, then I suppose the converse is possible, intentionally rejecting the presence of God. More often, what people reject is the hypocrisy of religious people. I guess I'm a universalist. the Rob Bell video makes a lot of sense to me. Josepp says:
You know, that's not what I learned when I got my degree in theology. I must have been sleeping the day they explained that. I suppose that for some people, God is all about condemnation and retribution and all that, but you will find God described as "loving and forgiving, slow to anger" no less than six times in the Old Testament. Here's an excerpt from Psalm 103:
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. He will not always accuse, nor will he keep his anger for ever. He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:47 AM IMHO, after the harmonisation of the principles of discrimination under UK law by the Equality Act 2010, that dismissal would be unlawful discrimination on the ground of religious belief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM Maybe so in the UK, Richard, but this guy was a pastor in North Carolina. I like to think of Methodists as progressive, but my friend the Methodist pastor got voted out of his job for opposing the war in Iraq and for supporting the rights of homosexuals. So, now he's working for Catholics as a pastor to homeless people, which he feels is his true calling. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM Buddhism is not a Religion. Not too many Religions would be happy with an approved admonition to their followers that says "If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:34 AM "Imaginary Daddy-in-the Sky". I feel that anyone who views religious people as having this image of God does not understand in any way a Faith. It's insulting in that it seems to label us as infantile. Similarly, the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas, Easter Rabbit etc are not analogies of how we experience our God. I also find the expression 'Imaginary Friend' insulting, maybe deliberately so? If a person has no faith, I respect them just the same, why not? And I would certainly never use swear words ("crap", "go f*** yourself" etc) in a rational discussion about religion or any other thread. Is it necessary josepp? I agree with everything Little Hawk has said on this thread, he shows a wise and informed tolerance and interest, even towards things he doesn't subscribe to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:29 AM Sorry Foolstroupe, Buddhism is a religion. Just because other religions might be uncomfortable with some of it's sayings is irrelevant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM Their followers call it a Philosophy of Life, not a Religion - They have no Deity! *** In fact they say "If you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him!" *** They do have lots of invisible magical sky fairies (Hungry Ghosts and such), but they WORSHIP NONE of these! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM Oh, and they also accept that their followers can be a member of any Religion eg, you can be a Christian Buddhist, a Muslim Buddhist,etc, just like to can be a Christian Mason or a Muslim Mason etc ... :-) Not too many 'Religions' with their 'No other God before me' thesis can tolerate that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:03 AM It's still a feature of Oriental religions that they are non-exclusive. The early Christians followed this as well - till at least the fifth century the Jewish and Christian authorities were compalining of Christians worshipping in sysnagogues. And till less than a thousand years ago, religious meant belonging to a religious order (of which Buddhism has many). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM I suppose the Hell concept is the carrot and stick approach, laying it on with a trowel for the masses. if people are more educated these days, perhaps they don't need the Hell bit after all. There again, perhaps education leads to questioning in the broader sense, and then how will those who smile too much exert their influence over others? M'Unlearned friend makes a good point over anti discriminatory laws here in The UK. Snag is, to profess a religious stance is to profess discrimination if you think about it long and hard enough. I have always laughed at the idea of a law to give people the right to bigotry and the rest of us to respect that. Sod that for a lark. Anyway, I am where the Methodists started it all happening tonight at a concert. Might go and have an argument with Wesley's statue if I have had enough pop by midnight.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: kendall Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM I'm a Deist. It's the only belief that makes sense to me. Organized religion is based on fear, ignorance and ego. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Ed T Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:18 AM "I think you may have a hostility problem" Thinking problem:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Michael Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM But to return to the 'original sin' in josepp's first post, and irrespective of all these fascinating discussions; if the priest is a member of a sect that believes in Hell and he denies it's existence then surely they are entitled to dispense with his services.(sorry pun not intended) It's the same principal as Anglican clergy who do not accept women priests or bishops leaving and becoming Catholics, except that they leave voluntarily. If a Secret Service employee refused to believe in secrecy the they would be justified in sacking him. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Ed T Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:25 AM If one considers a Ministers/Priests position a job, then I suspect there is some expection that they will support important aspects of the product/brand? Few employees can thumb their noses at the boss. If one looks at their position differently, realistic or not, I guess you may come up with a different conclusion. However, if you do not believe in the product, or do so subjectively or selectively, what's the point of hanging around anyway? Though, unlike with car sales, I suspect getting alternative employment is a related field may present a challenge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM ///Sorry Foolstroupe, Buddhism is a religion. Just because other religions might be uncomfortable with some of it's sayings is irrelevant.//// As someone who was born and raised a Buddhist but hasn't been one for many, many years, I'd have to say it is a religion also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Ed T Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM Buddhism: Philosophy or Religion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM There are millions of religions out there. Everyone practices a few of them, whether he thinks he does or not. Only about 5 per cent of them are the ones fingered by you AS "religion", josepp. You are unconscious of the religion you practice, and it's just as rigid and silly as the ones you're obsessed with attacking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: josepp Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM In the US, there is legalized discrimination. The Boy Scouts are a perfect example. They booted a couple of boys for being agnostic and the courts upheld it saying the Boy Scouts are a private organization and can admit or dismiss whom they choose--IOW, we can unleash our bigotry on you and you must accept it. But if I fired one of the Scout leaders from his job because he had an anit-Obama sticker on his car--boy-oh-boy--you'd better believe he'd be screaming discrimination like a stuck pig. But Michael is right in that when you belong to an organization that has a certain set of beliefs to espouse and you profess disagreement with any of those beliefs, then leave. If you don't leave, then teach all those beliefs and if you refuse then you're fired. Pretty straightforward. ////Josepp says: The purpose of religion, if you bother to study it, has always been to apotheosize the king. He's the son of heaven, he is god's child on earth, he is crowned by god Himself. To doubt his is to condemn yourself to hell. Royals invented religion to control the masses with. You know, that's not what I learned when I got my degree in theology.//// You don't think that people who teach crap are going to teach you that their crap is crap, do you? Theologian: An uncommon individual who, though possessing finite abilities, has been called by God himself who, though possessing infinite abilities, requires the assistance of the former in explaining Himself to the rest of us. ---Donald Morgan Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. ---Seneca the Younger Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. ---Robert A. Heinlein I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. ---Galileo Galilei I can doubt everything, except one thing, and that is the very fact that I doubt. ---Rene Descartes Show me a population that is deeply religious, and I will show you a servile population, content with whips and chains, contumely and the gibbet, content to eat the bread of sorrow and drink the waters of affliction. ---H. Hubert Harrison It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. ---Bill Waterson Nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear. ---Albert Camus There is no hell. There is only France. ---Frank Zappa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: GUEST,Seneca the Elder Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. ---Seneca the Younger" Seneca, get yer arse to bed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Ed T Date: 25 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM Zappa could be right. France could become "a hell" if they don't keep a close eye on their many nuke plants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM It's great fun erecting Aunt Sallies, and then knocking them over... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM If you've got an erect Aunt Sally.............! Someone was writing in the papers about a week ago that a lot of the nuclear plants were on the boundaries of tectonic plates, so since England is nowhere near any boundaries, maybe Britain should be building lots of nuclear plants to take advantage of the relative safety. Isn't most of Scotland on a different plate from England (we're just waiting for sufficient continental drift) and didn't I grow up in a city built on top of an extinct volcano (Arthur's Seat). I must admit that it was slightly worrying how they knew it was really extinct! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell From: Ed T Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM What the hell |
