BS: Fired for not believing in hell

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM

"The New Testament is not a historical document"

Presumably you mean a history book as is currently understood. The New Testament is a historical document, just like Beowulf and de Bello Gallica.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:37 PM

Cos rumour has it that Satan's a bad lot and enjoys sticking people up the bum with a red hot poker. Anyway - that's his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:00 PM

""Why would Satan punish people in hell? Wouldn't he reward them instead for being evil(being just like him)?""

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

If someone said to me, "you've got to believe stuff or you're fired", I'd say, "give me a list of stuff you want me to believe in." Then, of course, secretly NOT believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:10 AM

Phew, I scanned the title as 'Fined for not believing in Hull', which I think is on the statute books of the East Riding........

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

How is it possible that Mick Jagger couldn't get any satisfaction?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:02 PM

I was wrong. Hell exists. Take a look:

Hell

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

The standard Christian story goes that Jesus went to hell for three days upon dying. The gospels, Matthew, I believe, stated however that he was to spend three days "in the heart of the earth" and I don't remember Paul saying anything about Christ going to hell for three days, only that he rose after that amount of time.

Do you, as a Christian, believe that Jesus spent three days in Hell? If not, what, in your opinion, is meant by "the heart of the earth"? Personally, I don't think "the heart of the earth" refers to any hell at all. But then what was it a reference to?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:12 PM

Only very naughty termites and woodpeckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Would there be termites and woodpeckers in Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

What kind of place is, and what creatures live in, a parliament from Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

My "full figured" female neighbour once said to me:
""Where are all the men they say are into bigger woman? Hell, I can never seem to find 'em""

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:00 PM

Ed T: at what stage does one light it?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM

Home treatment for body crabs:

""chop and liquify 10,000 habanero peppers, mix with the oil of 5,000 eucalyptus leaves, add turpentine, distill into a few drops of liquid pain and mix with petroleum jelly"".

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Hell, they don't fire preachers for not believing in evolution.

Sure seems unfair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:21 PM

Holtz can consider himself lucky. Who wants to work for a boss like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

You think THAT'S tough, y'oughta try A-200, the best treatment for crabs. Talk about burn. Yes, it kills the crabs, but it leaves a burn on yer nuts that won't quit for a few hours. Pshaw on simple flame. I found out the hard way in the 1960s. If I ever catch the little bastards again, I'll simply use a blowtorch and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM

Ed - It burns - but then it grows back and burns again.....

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

If there is a hell, can pubic hair survive in this place, or is it just too hot (except in the winter, of course)?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM

Riddle of steel? Actually, my riddle is of iron and forms part of my wood burning stove.

I wonder what this thread will end up debating, once we all forget the original post? Oh, silly me. Faith versus ridicule.

T'was ever thus.


Mind you, I do like the idea that if you believe in your imaginary friend, you shouldn't become a politician. Snag is, would I be barred for believing in my football team? Would we all be barred for believing musical talent and Simon Cowell acolytes are mutually exclusive?

You see, religion is just one belief system. Its followers however use it as a moral code. Fair enough. But far too many believe you and I should too. And that just wont do.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: J-boy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 AM

Crom laughs at your Gods. Do you not know the riddle of steel?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:38 AM

The practising part is good, josepp. The 'every thread you're on becoming a fight' ain't so good, imo. I've heard your music and it's not bad. bfn

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:49 PM

The New Testament is not a historical document and is not proof of anything. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

"Proof please"

It's called the New Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

////the reforms and teaching by JC were corrupted wholesale////

Proof please.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM

The dead sea scrolls are not complete. Some was actually used to keep warm by burning them in the cave.

After the 1st 3 humdred years, accounts of what was said and done were already in jeopardy of crass editing. By 700 years the premise of the old testament and the reforms and teaching by JC were corrupted wholesale by those who sought to corporatize the religion and assign executive seating at the organized stock holder meetings.
The ceo popesa were now able to banish women for the club and do all sorts of profitable things in the name of... Uno hoo

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

At the church I sometimes go to with my wife (Central Lutheran Church on Seattle's Capitol Hill), the only time I've ever heard the word "hell" is when the custodian accidentally spilled the mop bucket.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

////You have too much angst in your life, josepp. Have you had your bp checked lately?////

I have no angst in my life at all. I love talking about this stuff and could do it all day if it didn't cut into my other leisure time such as writing and practicing my music. I never go anywhere in my car without taking books with me--just in case I'll have the time to read them. Then I like to start topics on stuff I read about. If that's angst, I'd like more of it. There is nothing that is off-limits to me. I'll discuss it if I want to. You have the choice to participate or not. I mean you can come here and discuss something interesting or you can come here and get asked to pray for some catter's Uncle Charley in the hospital after his 3rd heart attack. It's always up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:08 PM

"See, every religion has a Hell..."

No. Most don't. And some of those that do often attempt to control their followers to extract money from them or to incite their followers to perform acts of violence and even subserivient sacrifice in the form of death in battle for monetary gain for themselves.

Religion isn't bad. People are. Especially many religious people.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

"////Why is that your business?////
"It is if I want it to be."

In the 3D world, that's a very efficient method of getting popped in the snoot a lot.

SPLAT!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

You have too much angst in your life, josepp. Have you had your bp checked lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:51 PM

Honestly, I don't make them up!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

////Why is that your business?////

It is if I want it to be. You don't answer and I could care less if you do, but I'll damn well ask it if I want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"I would go as far as to say that anybody who believes in Christianity, Islam etc should not be allowed to lead governments. "

Good luck with that one.

But since you are one of the Clear Thinkers - why not run for office yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

This "cherry picking" from the Bible amuses me.

Many modern Christians will say that they don't need organised religion BUT those "organised religions" were the ones who produced and shaped the writings on which they base their faith.

I would go as far as to say that anybody who believes in Christianity, Islam etc should not be allowed to lead governments.
Government demands clear, logical - and unclouded - thinking, and, I'm afraid ( very afraid! ) that followers of Christianity, Islam etc certainly fail that test!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

Wouldn't discrediting your clergyman because he doesn't believe in Hell be roughly analogous to discrediting your MD because he refuses to treat you by attaching leeches?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM

"What is the role of Jesus in your Christianity if you do not believe in hell?"

Why is that your business?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:59 AM

Ye have heard it in the scripture, if thy right buttock offend thee -doing really smelly farts - then cut it off.

Verily I say unto thee, turn the other cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:06 AM

Dunno, but I do know where Hell is at the moment.

It is being on the kop at Hillsborough on a Saturday afternoon.

See, every religion has a Hell, even the true religion of football.

(More serious than you think. Bear with me.)

I have a usual stance of "if you believe in the old dude with the big beard and a son of his who can defy the laws of physics, excuse me whilst I laugh." BUT to be fair to them, they need faith to sustain their belief.

In the same way, I know Sheffield Wednesday are not the best / only team in the world if I thought logically, but there again, I have faith.

So it's not my failure to understand faith, just that I have the true faith. UP THE OWLS!

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:49 AM

As far as I can see hell is the everyday sadnesses that happen to people, hunger, pain, hard work, no work, injustices it can't get much worse than this so to my mind this is it.

To be fired for not believing in hell sort of reminds me of the days way back in time when people were tortured on the rack or put in a ducking stool until they relented.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: open mike
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:26 AM

I think that some christians do more to keep the devil alive by keeping his name alive and mentioning him frequently...this gives him power and presence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:51 AM

I'm not trying to say things that are "good enough" to satisfy you, josepp. What a false hope that would be! This isn't a win or lose game with a prize at the end. ;-) I'm simply telling you what I think, that's all. I'm glad to see you're giving a wee bit of thought to it, and I am not out to prove that I'm "right" and you're "wrong"...just telling you what I think, and suggesting various other ways of interpreting things, that's all.

Yeah, sure "his death and resurrection have to have a central meaning in Christianity". Absolutely. And people interpret that in various ways too, depending on their viewpoint. Fundamentalists interpret it literally. Many others may interpret it allegorically, symbolically. I'm not here to say that one of them has to be RIGHT...but there are allegorical and symbolic possibilities.

For instance, one meaning of such a tale is to symbolize something that happens to ALL people, not just to Jesus. That is, it may be that a human consciousness survives physical death (of the body) and is therefore resurrected, and the resurrection tale of Jesus may have something to do with that.

Again you'll say "not good enough"... ;-) So what? I'm not trying to meet your conditions here. I'm suggesting looking at something on several symbolic levels, not just one.

I think there were other popular religious tales around long before Jesus about the death and resurrection of a sacred figure in this or that tradition. Sometimes that figure was seen as the "Son of God (the Divine)". Well, some would assert that it's a statement about all humanity, not about one man...that we are all the sons and daughters of God.

Yes, I saw your previous comments about Jesus supposedly being a "lousy moral teacher", but I don't agree, because you're way too literal. The main reason we disagree is that you are looking ONLY at the Bible accounts (which are in many ways questionable), and I doubt that you've done any other alternative reading about Jesus. There are many other interesting sources. But you wouldn't look for them, because you're not inclined to.

You have started from a basic hostile emotional premise that's totally negative and reactive. You already detest the Christian religion on principle, and all you're really out for is to find any more fuel you can throw on the fire of your intense dislike for Christianity...and for religion in general. You want MORE stuff to get angry about. And you want to vent here. That is not going to lead you to read any of the vast number of more subtle or thoughtful philosophical books that are out there about spirituality, Jesus or anything else. Why would you? You're against it all on principle.

All you're going to do is go to the Bible, a bunch of oooold books written by a bunch of individual men back then who were trying to sell a new religion to the masses of their time. They spoke in the terms they thought would be saleable to people at that time. That's why so much of it doesn't sound very believable now. If they were doing it now, they'd put things in different terms.

I'm far more interested in present-day spiritual writings than I am in stuff written almost 2,000 years ago, because the present day stuff is written in today's vernacular, in today's terms of reference, with full awareness of modern science and modern thought, and it's far more applicable to our times.

But, hey, even talking to you about this stuff is just a silly waste of my time. I'm just doing it because I happened to open this window and get hooked in momentarily. It won't change anything, and I know it. You will just go on launching these hostile attacks on religion for the rest of your natural life, denigrating people who practice it despite knowing nothing about them, mouthing off to the world in general about how much better you are than them, and how they really don't deserve to live.

And you'll manage to hurt a few people...piss off a few more...charge up a few angry venters like yourself...and generally spread a little more pain and prejudice and hostility in the world to absolutely no purpose at all. And you'll get to feel special for doing it too! Wowee.

Well, have fun wallowing in it, man. Have a jolly old time in the dark emotional sinkhole you have chosen. I have already wasted a little chunk of my own time here, and I think it might really be time to do something more useful instead...like practice my guitar. Take a bath. Anything, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:42 PM

Hell's Bells
1 for $4.99
3 for $12.99

THat whole premise about Jesus (or his stunt double) having saved people from hell in the afterlife is bizarre and something I am sure he never said. Hell on earth perhaps.
I've heard the rumor that he sacrificed himself for our sins to be forgiven and our suffering to be put on his shoulders. Even assuming he was a master craftsman of martyrdom it was still an imperial fascist government that condemned him.

Too bad JC wasn't literate enough to write his own self help book and avoid all the confusion brought about by transcriptions, translations, transvestites, transitions, model trans and trans fats.

If God is indeed literate and capable of writing a coherent sentence, I bet there would still be some jerk off editor that would add political spin and power hierarchies that would ruin the whole book... like they did in the Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

///I don't call myself a Christian. But if I did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that I believe in hell. Many Christians don't. And it wouldn't even necessarily mean that I think Jesus has saved me from something. Many Christians do think that, but I think you'd find that some think of Jesus as a teacher rather than as a saviour.///

But his death and resurrection have to have a central meaning in Christianity. You can't say he was just a teacher and that his resurrection didn't really mean anything--as though people rise from the dead everyday. It has to mean something very important and very central to what it means to be a Christian and it currently only does if the Christian believes in hell.

///What did his sacrifice mean? There are many opinions about that, but some would not even look at it as "his sacrifice", they'd look at it as a tragic and unjust punishment that was inflicted on an innocent spiritual teacher by a corrupt old religious hierarchy who were just protecting their turf against new ideas he was presenting. Period.////

Not good enough. It's dismissing the resurrection and that it absolutely essential to Christianity. It can't mean nothing.

////I regard Jesus as having had exactly the same role that any good spiritual teacher has, which is simply to help counsel people as to how they can become better, happier, wiser people.///

I can see you didn't read my post about Jesus being a lousy moral teacher so I'll repost it here and maybe you can try and provide some answers this time:

As a moral teacher, Jesus had to be one of the worst--2nd only to Mohammed.

Strip Jesus of his divinity, most of what he teaches is pure nonsense and pure status quo. There was nothing revolutionary in what he taught. For example, he exhorts his followers to resist not evil (Mt 5:39). If we don't resist evil then we must, by necessity, succumb to it. He stated that if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Mt 5:30). Who in their right mind would steal something and then blame their hand for the theft and cut it off? Jesus stated that the slave who does not do his master's bidding "shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk 12:47). Where is the revolutionary message that slavery is wrong and must be abolished? Nowhere. I would place Lincoln as superior to this Jesus. Jesus also stated that he did not come to bring peace "but a sword" (Mt 10:34). He claimed to he came to turn family against one another (Mt 10:35). Jesus also claimed that he who does not hate his family and himself cannot be his follower (Lk 14:26). And who can possibly explain Jesus' bizarre statement in Mark 4:11-12?

Even the Golden Rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is neither original nor particularly moral. The Old Testament already has the Golden Rule in it and Confucius was preaching it centuries before Jesus allegedly did. If the only teachings of any value spoken by Jesus can already be found in earlier religions, what the hell do we need Christianity for??

////There have been thousands of spiritual teachers. Maybe millions. Jesus is one who became very well known, because his followers succeeded in founding a major faith. Buddha is another such. Lao-Tse is another, though in a rather different way...Taoism isn't an organized religion, it's a philosophy. It has no ruling heirarchy. Zoroaster was another. Most of them you have never heard of and never will, because their followers were few and they did not build their teachings into a major religion.////

They became major religion because some king or emperor made it so. If you think this wasn't the case with Christianity, I would suggest you read about Constantine. He exalted Christianity despite being a bloodthirsty sonofabitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:31 PM

"If you call yourself a Christian but you do not believe in hell, then what did Jesus save you from? What did his sacrifice mean then? Or was it a sacrifice at all? Maybe it never even happened."

I don't call myself a Christian. But if I did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that I believe in hell. Many Christians don't. And it wouldn't even necessarily mean that I think Jesus has saved me from something. Many Christians do think that, but I think you'd find that some think of Jesus as a teacher rather than as a saviour. What did his sacrifice mean? There are many opinions about that, but some would not even look at it as "his sacrifice", they'd look at it as a tragic and unjust punishment that was inflicted on an innocent spiritual teacher by a corrupt old religious hierarchy who were just protecting their turf against new ideas he was presenting. Period.

Maybe it never happened? Yeah sure...anything's possible. ;-) It seems very doubtful to me that it never happened, but on the other hand, we can't prove it did or didn't, can we? So if you want to question whether it happened, that's entirely up to you. (shrug)

I regard Jesus as having had exactly the same role that any good spiritual teacher has, which is simply to help counsel people as to how they can become better, happier, wiser people. Better in their behaviour, better in their self-discipline, better in their treatment of others, better in their treatment of themselves, more positive in their attitude and behaviour. That's the basic purpose of all sincere spiritual teachers.

Their followers are the ones who take their simple and reasonable teachings, complicate them in all kinds of strange ways after they're gone, start up new religions full of rules and power structures, and generally (unwittingly) do the best they can to misdirect and screw up the simple teachings that the spiritual teacher gave, and that's what I see as having happened in the case of the Christian religion (and many others). It's the followers who are the problem, generally speaking, not the original teacher who started the whole thing off.

There have been thousands of spiritual teachers. Maybe millions. Jesus is one who became very well known, because his followers succeeded in founding a major faith. Buddha is another such. Lao-Tse is another, though in a rather different way...Taoism isn't an organized religion, it's a philosophy. It has no ruling heirarchy. Zoroaster was another. Most of them you have never heard of and never will, because their followers were few and they did not build their teachings into a major religion.

Any follower who claims that his chosen teacher or prophet is the ONLY one is wrong, IMO. Any follower who claims that his chosen teacher or prophet is the FOREMOST one is wrong, IMO.

But that's what people tend to do. They always figure their way is best. It's the old human ego at work, just like when someone thinks his country or his political party is "the best". As common as selfishness, greed, and other such well known character flaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:32 PM

Excellent Ed, finally some good reasons to go to church -- door prizes and beer, especially if Jesus is buying.

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM

It beats Bingo?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

Why not pub church?

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:21 PM

I'm not sure that David Jenkins' reported sayings in the tabloids, what he actually said, and what he believed are necessarily the same. Like many academic theologians, (including Rowan Williams and Joseph Ratzinger) he could be quoted out of context from densely argued papers to give the impression that he was saying the opposite of what he really meant. Having said that, I once heard him say that one of his greatest achievemnts was getting theology argued about in pubs,

Subject: RE: BS: Fired for not believing in hell
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM

OK, the time has come to sum it up:
He was "fried" for not believing in hell