Has morris become mere 'fun'?

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:01 PM

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick, Michael. Most people do not regard Morris as 'just a bit of fun===

No, DeG, you have -- in that I was not asking about 'most people' at all; it is not the reaction of the general public that I am aocerned with here, but the reaction that the morrismen themselves are out to get, and what is their attitude to the dance. It is the worry that many of them, themselves, see it only as 'a bit of fun' that concerns me.

Otherwise, many thanks for your helpful reply.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:40 AM

Michael - many questions are asked with the sole intention of provoking a fight. "Are you looking at MY girlfriend" being a classic example.
That said - back to your original question. The past in relation to folk music song and tradition has been recently described as an "imagined village", a place seen through rosy spectacles. My personal experience is that reality is a mixture of views, where some people appreciate and enjoy (would even go out of their way to see) morris dancing The other side of the coin is people who ridicule anything outside their immediate interests, whatever they may be. I suspect that both views have existed throughout history, but the proportion of each has changed depending on the ruling fashions.
Currently we are in a phase where anything "trad" is officially ridiculed by the establishment. Probably because we can do it without paying out big amounts of cash to the self-same Establishment. They can't use it to make a profit, so it must be something to be derided.
At least an appearance in a telly advert lets the general population see that it actually exists.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:30 AM

As a one time dancer and existing musician for the (one day a year) Ahram Morris I cannot really regard myself as expert. But I have danced other traditions on occasion (Border and North West) and have loved the whole pageant of Morris for more years than I care to remember. That being said I think you may realise I do care about it. In my opinion it is neither deadly serious nor just a bit of fun.

As has already been pointed out there are very few Morris traditions that are not revivals - Abram being no exception. The longest running tradition, which I think is Abbots Bromley, is unlike most other traditions. Although it is recorded as being danced in 1226! The Goathland Plough Stots, while being able to go back to a revival in 1922, can hardly be considered an ancient tradition. So, those who get uptight about it requiring an almost religious reverence are, again only in my opinion, working under a misapprehension.

On the other hand, it is frustrating to see the traditions of so many other cultures being celebrated and enjoyed while our own home grown offerings are, at best, ignored or, at worst, attacked at or even reviled. A friend and I went to a celebration of immigrant traditions in Salford some time back. It was very enjoyable (with a session in the pub later to rival any!) but, to be honest, the dancing, when compred to the vigour of Cotswold, the wildness of Border or the pure spectacle or North West, was pretty tame.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick, Michael. Most people do not regard Morris as 'just a bit of fun'. In fact, most people could not really care less about it in the same way that they do not care about Folk music. It is only the people who find it fun and enjoyable that will care about it. Or those who really do despise it of course. Either way - I would suspect that 80% of the population could not give a toss one way or another.

I have not seen th thread you refer to and have no intention of hunting it down. But I have seen many on here that are just about personalities. We have our very own resident trolls - some of whom will defend tradition to the death while others will insist that the world of traditional folk (and I include dance in that) is dull, deadly boring and run by 'the folk police' who will stamp out any measure of enjoyment. I am sure you are sensible enough to see which are genuine viewpoints, which are just arguing for it's own sake and which are just brainless trolls.

At least I think you are! :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:52 AM

The majority of dance teams are either a "revival" of things documented in their locality, "imported" from some other location or "invented". very few can honestly claim a "real" tradition in what they do.

That's absolutely my view, Geoff - a quacking good post from you! My friends in the Ditchling Morris tell me that the team was formed - in 1985 - specifically for men and women, outside the all-male confines of the Morris Ring. Though they base their dances on the Cotswold tradition as it's perceived today, they're not hardliners about it. They enjoy the practice, the public dancing, the beer, the music and the social activities - parties, anniversaries, etc. - which spin off from being friends.

All of that can survive a little irony. Some members of the public may snigger at the dancers but many soon realise that, for strength, energy and agility, they'd be on a hiding to nothing if they tried it!

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

Not so much an 'opinion' as an impression, Dave. That is why my thread title is formulated as a question ~~ which I would draw likewise to your attention, Geoff, as earnest of my not wishing to start any fights: tho I can't see why one would start a thread at all if one intended to avoid all controversy whatever, do you?

Thank you both for thoughtful responses.

~M~

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM

Okay Michael.
I'll try a fairly serious answer before the fight starts, although you seem to start threads with that as the intention.

Morris has been around a long time. At certain times there is documentation which gives some form of snapshot. In essence these contemporary snapshots of information prove that it was known to the people who wrote the documents. We know from some of these that some form of Morris was known in the Court of Henry VIII and that the actor William Kemp danced from London to Norwich (a 9 Day Wonder which actually took four weeks). The text of his pamphlet describing the event can be found at Project Gutenberg BLICKY!.
By the Victorian era it had dropped out of the interest of "writing folks" until seen by Cecil Sharpe.
Most of what we know (or think we know) has been researched or invented in the time between that day and now. What most people do not know, and mostly are not bothered about knowing is which bits are total fabrication. In general a good story beats authenticated facts.
Everyone has their own personal agenda, and academics are no exception. I think part of the academic mindset is an inbuilt belief that what you are studying MUST BE IMPORTANT, because if you didn't think so, you would be wasting your talents. I sometimes suspect that "folklorists" have on occasion been guilty of trying - whether deliberately or without realising - to add "value" to what they report.
In my mind, the key question is "Why were those dancers doing" when observed by Sharpe. Were they trying to uphold a sacred tradition, or were they doing something which they knew allowed them to rattle a collecting box at the doors of the rich people? If you take the latter view, the justification for dancing is to entertain for money.

Most morris teams do not have any direct link to an unbroken "tradition", even in some of the villages where Sharpe made his notes, they were of description given by men too old to dance. The majority of dance teams are either a "revival" of things documented in their locality, "imported" from some other location or "invented". very few can honestly claim a "real" tradition in what they do.
That said, it takes a lot of time, effort and practice to reach a standard of performance that is watchable by an audience. Morris dancers work hard to get there and nobody does it as a bit of "tongue in cheek fun poking". If you don't at least attempt to do it right, you ain't going to do it at all. It is, after all, a performance.
What makes a good performance? Too precise can be boring to watch, too sloppy is an insult to the audience. The most entertaining are often the dance team who perform well enough to be relaxed and smiling. Having fun in a way the audience can see and enjoy.

As for the question of the Pimms Advert. If a film company are willing to pay sensible (or silly) money, it will pay bills such as hire of a hall to practice in, subsidise the cost of attending an expensive gathering or maybe just beer on the day. After all, if it isn't fun, people would not join in the first place.

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:35 AM

I doubt many people would take a mudcat thread all by itself on which to base an opinion about a folk genre - be it dance or song or anything else.

Mine is based on watching morris dancing for the last 35 years.

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM

Why, Dave, from some of the responses I got on that other thread. Have you looked at them? They suggested to me that some of those who accused me of 'pomposity', called me 'dinosaur', and so on, seemed to have lost the important distinction of doing it for pleasure ~~ of themselves and the spectators ~~ and doing it to attract 'attitude' in the onlookers. I appreciate there was always a 'fun' aspect, represented by Betty & Hobbyhorse and other such comic elements; but a distinction seems to me to have been lost, in the responses I got there, between wanting the audience to laugh with you at those parts, and inviting them to them to laugh at you because the whole gestalt was somehow a bit comic & OTT. I am happy if I have this wrong and this is not your perception; but that was how I felt the feedback I got there ~ hence this thread.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM

I think you have mis read the signs and mis-remembered the past Mike and I would be interested to know how your attitude has been formed.

I go around a lot of morris events - though not dancing nowadays and in the past two years have been to Sidmouth and Whitby as a member of a booked team.

I think the younger dancers that have joined established teams such as Great Western, Berkshire Bedlams, Hammersmith are fine. The ones that have broken off and formed their own teams Jig Crew for example are splendid. Many of the women's teams - whatever dances they do are simply great, Chinwrde being a fine example or Windsor if you like Cotswold. There is some exciting Border morris being done too.

I go to a lot of festivals of various sizes and the best teams I see there are as good as any I have ever seen.

So whence your attitude Mike?

Subject: RE: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: RTim
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:28 AM

Many of us "Serious" Morris dancers have been dancing and enjoying it for years, but ignoring what detractors say. Of course all the while making sure we have a place with our own communities and carefully planning the successful continuation of our tradition.

Tim Radford - ex- Adderbury & Kirtlington Morris teams (among others)

Subject: Has morris become mere 'fun'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

I am not a morris man; but I have known many in my time. I would particularly instance Arthur Peck and Russell Wortley, both Cambridge academics, both also in their time bagman and squire for the Cambridge morris; both born before WWi and dying 1970s-80s. Russell literally died dancing ~~ he was the 'Betty', and his widow was relieved that they got his dress off. After Arthur's memorial service in Christ's College Chapel, the men were invited by the Master to dance on the sacred grass of the First Court.

They were older men than me ~~ of the previous generation, indeed. And, for all their doing the "Betty" bit or the Hobby-Horse in their turn, they took the morris seriously ~~ not over-earnestly, but seriously. They would never have regarded it as 'just a bit of fun', or approached it in a manner suggesting an expectation of being, if not actually mocked, at least of being regarded as a bit 'odd' or 'off'.

But, from the reception I got from most on the ongoing Morris Men Wanted For Pimms Ad thread, on my suggesting it might be the best thing for any self-respecting morrisman to stay clear of because the object was sure to be to send them up disrespectfully, I got the impression that that was what today's men expected ~~ and not only expected, but would actually welcome; because, it seemed to me, the present generation regard the whole thing as just a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun which they themselves do not regard with any sort of seriousness.

Is this indeed the case? Am I just a lone voice crying from a distant past? Does no-one else out there realise there was a time the morris was regarded as a glory of our tradition? ~ to be enjoyed, indeed - not with an inappropriate over-earnestness, but with respect; and not to be wilfully and consciously sent up for the delectation of a grinning and contemptuous populace, with a sort of attitude of "yes, we know it's all a bit silly so smile all you like" (which, unless I have misunderstood, from the obloquy and hatred I seem to have incurred on that other thread) appears to be the overriding attitude among today's sides.

Once again ~ is that indeed the case, or have I misread the signs or misremembered the past.? And, if it is so, does anyone else out there regret it?

~Michael~