No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM

I heard a guy tell someone that last night. "I've studied guitar for three years and my instructor says there's no such thing as a B-sharp. It's a C."

So either the teacher is an idiot who shouldn't be in that job or the guy misunderstood him.

For those who don't know, yes, there damned well is such a thing as a B-sharp and yes it is also called a C. One is an enharmonic equivalent of the other.

What bothers me, though, is the guy said he's been studying for three years. That's kind of long time to still be carrying around this misconception and that leads me to believe that his instructor actually has taught him that there is no such thing as a B-sharp.

The misconception occurs probably because, if one looks at a keyboard, one notices there is no black key between B and C nor between E and F. The black key represents a sharp or a flat, e.g. the black key between F and G can be called F-sharp or G-flat depending on the case. Since there is no black key between B and C, then there is no B-sharp or C-flat. Seems logical but it is wrong. B-sharp is C and C-flat is B. For that matter, you can call C a D-double flat or a G and F-double sharp.

Shouldn't there be some kind of qualification for teaching music? We require mechanics to be ASE certified so that we can rest assured that the guy knows the back end of a car from the front before he touches yours. We require an engineer to be licensed so that if he designs a bridge, it will not collapse when you're driving over it--that might be important if your future plans include living.

So, if your child is taking music lessons, wouldn't you want to make sure your teacher is qualified to teach music? All I know is, if my kid has been studying for 3 years and then one day says that his instructor says there's no such thing as a B-sharp, me and that instructor are going to have a little talk.

It seems kind of indicative of things these days. When I took drum lessons, I learned from a guy who was college-educated in the drums. I'm learning the double bass right now from a guy who is university educated and studied under a principal bassist of two major symphonies. When my uncle used to play double bass bog bands in the 40s and in a jazz band back in the early 50s, he and every member of the band were college-educated and held degrees in music.

Now we seem to hire people that played guitar is 5 rock bands over the last 10 years and so he's qualified. Seems to me our standards are slipping. So, in case you didn't know, you can't play a B-sharp on your guitar because there's no B-sharp fret.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:34 PM

Sorry, I meant to say my uncle played in big bands in the 40s not bog bands. He never played in one of those.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

play the music enjoy it, and when you judge a teacher judge him on how good his pupils are and.... has he enthused his pupils with a love of music, not on whether he called something bs harp or c

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

No, I disagree. Music theory is music theory and part of his job is to teach it and teach it correctly. I believe when you learn an instrument, you need to learn to read music. Tabs are ok for a quick and dirty but you should know real music and not just tabs. A guy who says there's no such thing as a B-sharp cannot know how to read music or otherwise what's he going to play when he runs across a B-sharp? For that matter, he can't have looked at much sheet music over the last 3 years to even make such a statement.

When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture. It's not a case of "As long as you're enjoying yourself..." No way. Study is study and you have to devote time to it. I enjoy doing that but it's still a lot of work and a big commitment. If you're going to learn it, learn it right. And if you're going to teach it, teach it right.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: pavane
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

The reason to call it B# instead of C is that it will be displayed differently on sheet music.

A note of B (equivalent to middle C) will be displayed as a B, not a C, therefore just above the A line in the Bass clef, and the # will be implied by the key signature (I hope).

If the key is C, the note will be displayed with a horizontal line through it.

But in reality it doesn't make much difference.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

And of course, they're only the same in Equal Temperament.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

I be sharp.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

Conversation between a student and an old time banjo player.
Student. "Can you read music"?
Old timer, "Not enough to hurt my playing."

Another quote, "Hell, there aint no notes on a banjo, you just play the damn thing."

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:29 PM

///The reason to call it B# instead of C is that it will be displayed differently on sheet music.

A note of B (equivalent to middle C) will be displayed as a B, not a C, therefore just above the A line in the Bass clef, and the # will be implied by the key signature (I hope).

If the key is C, the note will be displayed with a horizontal line through it.

But in reality it doesn't make much difference.///

It makes a big difference if you don't know there's such a thing as B-sharp.

If you're playing in A major where C is sharped from the key signature then anytime you run across a C, you play it sharp unless it has a natural next to it, then you play it natural. So if there's no such thing as a B-sharp and it's all C then every C that's a B-sharp has to have a natural sign next to it. That presents problems with notation in a key as A major such as when a C-natural is played, every C in that measure is natural unless notated otherwise. If want to C to return to sharp in that measure, you have to put a sharp sign next to it. Whereas if you use a B-sharp for C-natural, you can get around all this confusing notation trying to differentiate between C-natural and C-sharp. The C note will remain sharp by notating C-natural as B-sharp. That's much easier to read. But not if you're taught there's no such thing as a B-sharp.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

"So either the teacher is an idiot who shouldn't be in that job or the guy misunderstood him".
he may or may not be an idiot , but he may be a good teacher who inspires his pupils, I would not dismiss someone as a bad teacher because they said what he said, who cares a feck what its called, in equal temperament its the same thing.
josepp, youare talking shite, music is about enjoyment , many people can play very well but cannot read music, I can read music, I also spend a lot of time practising.
I find your atttitude intolerant, I think it is incredible, that you can make a value judgement on someone as a teacher , because they called b sharp c, or said b sharp doesn@t exist, or whatever , what the feck has that got to do with inspiring someone to play music.
if yu hadnt noticed most of the modern music is in equal temperament where in effect b sharp is c.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:39 PM

////Conversation between a student and an old time banjo player.
Student. "Can you read music"?
Old timer, "Not enough to hurt my playing."

Another quote, "Hell, there aint no notes on a banjo, you just play the damn thing."////

So, there's no such thing as banjo sheet music?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:48 PM

When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture

I have known many, many wonderful musicians that I respect greatly and I could never hold a candle to them as musicians, yet they could not read a note of sheet music. You would say that they 'damage our culture' (whatever that means!)?

I do read music but I can't say that I have regularly come across B# written down. I would think that what the guitar teacher meant was that there isn't a separate note called B#, but in effect it is the same as the note commonly referred to as C. To take issue with this and to say he therefore doesn't understand music theory is taking it a bit far.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

///he may or may not be an idiot , but he may be a good teacher who inspires his pupils, I would not dismiss someone as a bad teacher because they said what he said, who cares a feck what its called, in equal temperament its the same thing.///

Because he's wrong, you fool. And you're wrong too. It makes a difference.

////josepp, youare talking shite, music is about enjoyment , many people can play very well but cannot read music, I can read music, I also spend a lot of time practising.
I find your atttitude intolerant////

I could care less what you think. You're wrong and you know you're wrong. And if you really knew how to read music, which i very much doubt, you wouldn't say it makes no difference.

////I think it is incredible, that you can make a value judgement on someone as a teacher , because they called b sharp c, or said b sharp doesn@t exist, or whatever , what the feck has that got to do with inspiring someone to play music.////

Okay, say your 12-year-old kid comes home from school and you notice on his homework: "Jak drove the kar to the klub at 5 o'klok." And you ask him why is spelling it that way and he says, "My teacher says there is no such thing as a hard C and that we should just use k. It sounds the same. And I really, really like this teacher." What would you do?

////if yu hadnt noticed most of the modern music is in equal temperament where in effect b sharp is c.////

Yes, B-sharp is C. That's totally different from saying there is no such thing as B-sharp. Who taught you to read music?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:56 PM

gnu, you be sharp, I be square.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:09 PM

////I have known many, many wonderful musicians that I respect greatly and I could never hold a candle to them as musicians, yet they could not read a note of sheet music.////

The best guitarist I ever played with can't read. What has that got to do with anything??? I'm talking about someone who is being paid to teach music and is apparently teaching it wrong. Undoubtedly the guy is good on guitar to have students but he shouldn't be teaching. That's not the same as somebody hearing him on a recording and being inspired by him to take up guitar. It's about him being paid to teach music and he is doing it wrong but his students buy into it because he's their teacher.

///You would say that they 'damage our culture' (whatever that means!)?///

The point of playing an instrument is not just for enjoyment. If you're any good, it is possible somebody may want you to teach them. If you teach them wrong, they too will teach others wrong and so on. That is damaging to our culture.

What generally happens is that people like the ones attacking me right now encounter these people and laugh at them for being ignorant and asking how good could their teacher have been if he taught theory this badly? Imagine an entire school of violin being taught with erroneous musical theory behind it--imagine that.

When you leave behind a legacy, it has to be right because posterity is a harsh judge. And, like it or not, when you take it on yourself to teach, you are leaving behind a legacy.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:21 PM

"The Concert Harp; In the top position no pegs are in contact with the string and all notes are flat; thus the harp's native tuning is to the scale of C-flat major."

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:21 PM

The best guitarist I ever played with can't read. What has that got to do with anything???

Because you said (and I quote again):
When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture

The quote from your post, put those two sentences together- did you not mean that? Sounded very like it to me.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:21 PM

josepp: there are chords that use double sharps and flats. The fact that someone knows or doesn`t know that is not sufficient reason to go off your rag.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM

///josepp: there are chords that use double sharps and flats. The fact that someone knows or doesn`t know that is not sufficient reason to go off your rag.////

Once again, read this: When you are BEING PAID TO TEACH MUSIC, you are obliged to teach it correctly. When you tell people there is no such thing as a B-sharp, you are NOT teaching it correctly. It's no different than teaching someone that there is no E-string on a guitar. "So what's this one?" the person asks plucking the E. "Oh, that's the F-flat string." Is that teaching the guitar correctly in your opinion? Would you pay someone to teach you that? And do you think that student should, in turn, teach others that same line?


/////Because you said (and I quote again):
When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture

The quote from your post, put those two sentences together- did you not mean that? Sounded very like it to me./////

If we had no musicians in this country that could read music and read it well, our culture would be a shit heap. Listening to the Beatles is all well and good and the fact that they can't read music is all well and good. But if every musician was like that, it would NOT be all well and good. The guitarist I spoke of is great, but he can't teach anyone to play what he does. At best, he can hope someone will just pick it up like he did. In fact, I stopped using him for jam sessions because I need him to read and he can't read. Great guitar-player but I can't use him.

I might have great aptitude as an engineer but if I never went to college and got a degree in engineering, would you hire me to build a bridge? Especially if the math I use is not exactly correct?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM

////"The Concert Harp; In the top position no pegs are in contact with the string and all notes are flat; thus the harp's native tuning is to the scale of C-flat major."////

Why, that can't be right!!!! There's no such thing as C-flat, only B!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:04 PM

you seem to be obsessed with people being correct, and using correct terminology, none of which has anything to do with being a good teacher.
A person may have all the correct qualifications, Possess a degree, be very knowledgeable, may understand that in other temperaments other than equal.. b sharp is different from c ... but still be a useless teacher.
playing and teaching music is not just about correct terminology , if it was we could programme a robot to teach it

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mark Ross
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:07 PM

Pete Seeger once asked his father Charles, the composer and musicologist, when should someone learn to read music. Charles Seefer replied, 'When the know what kind of music they want to play."

I once heard Itzhak Perlman on NPR demonstrate the difference between B, Bsharp, Cflat, and C. Even a cheap radio I could hear the difference in the tones. In classical music I guess it makes a difference, but read Woody Guthrie on the distinction between a sliding finger fiddler and one who can drop his digit on the precise note.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:08 PM

Josepp is right, there is such a thing as B# and he is also right to criticise his friend's guitar teacher for not knowing the difference, or at least not pointing it out.

Of course it's always possible that his friend has mis-reported (or misunderstood) what his guitar teacher actually said. I suspect that may well be the case and before criticising the guitar teacher, that needs to be checked.

I agree that in most practical situations, there is no difference in sounding pitch between B# and C, nevertheless knowing that there is a difference does matter in a practical sense, especially if you play from written music at all because you might see it written down and you need to know what to play. I play recorder in a classical music ensemble and I come across B# from time to time. It's not particularly common but it is not by any means rare. If Josepp's friend is interested in playing classical guitar at all or ever becomes interested then it is essential that he knows what B# is.

To anticipate the other question that often comes up, namely "Why not write it as C?". It's all to do with the harmony in written music. If you are wanting to write a chord of G#maj, for example, you would write it as G# B# D# (ie a semitone above Gmaj). You could equally write Ab C Eb but that is an Ab chord and not G#. True, when both were played, they would sound the same, but which you would choose would depend on the harmonic progression. Whichever way you expressed that chord, writing it as G# C D# would not make sense as it would muddy the harmonic progression for someone looking at the score.

There are situations where B# and C are not the same. If you play a G#(Ab) chord on a keyboard tuned 1/4 comma meantone, believe me, it sounds horrible! In meantone temperaments, the enharmonic "equivalents" are not equivalent and you actually need different keys for both B# & C and also for Eb and D# so that you could get sweet sounding chords. This has been attempted in the past but the result was never really satisfactory so has not persisted.

If you play purely by ear, then of course all this is purely academic but if you play music in a situation where the norm is to play from written music then it is definitely of practical importance.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM

////you seem to be obsessed with people being correct, and using correct terminology, none of which has anything to do with being a good teacher.////

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM

There is also B half-sharp. In the Arab system it both is and isn't "equivalent" to C half-flat!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:20 PM

"If you play purely by ear, then of course all this is purely academic but if you play music in a situation where the norm is to play from written music then it is definitely of practical importance."

since most music is in equal temperament it is not of practical importance, it is of importance in some forms of classical harmony writing, as regards correct protocol,
it is important in other temperaments other than equal, but it bears no relationship to whether someone is a good teacher.
But since the guitar is an equal tempered instrument, the guitar teacher would have been correct in f he had said that on the guitar b sharp and c occupy the same fret, as do g# and a flat, so what you call them whilst you are playing is not important, because they are in effect the same bloody note, this is probably what he meant.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PHJim
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:28 PM

If someone has been taking lessons for three years, it might be confusing to indicate the idea of B#. I doubt a guitar player of three years is going to be reading music with B#s in it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:51 PM

Quite obviously, josepp learned his music in the manner of a religion, and believes that only the "true faith" may be taught, and that everyone must know and believe his faith.

To explain economics to a graduate student, he would start the lesson with the explanation that the elasticicy of the supply-demand curve is the partial derivative of the quantity demanded by the market with respect to the price set by the supply, just as Dr. Samuelson did on the first chapter of his widely acclaimed Economics textbook.

This "method" simply ignores that since the graduate student majored in philosopy and English literature, what (s)he really needs to know is "there are one hundred pennies in a dollar" since the immediate functional need is to be able to make change at the pub/tavern where the student finally found a first job. (The teacher must also recognize, in this cse, that the student is probably anticipating the opportunity to move out of his parents' home - at age 39 - and may not be thinking too clearly.)

Any decent "teacher" has the task of presenting new information in terms that the student can relate to something that the student already understands; and the teacher must avoid the attempt to teach technicalities incomprehensible in the context of the studen'ts existing understanding before the student is prepared for, and capable of understanding, the new information. The lesson must fit the student's needs.

This does occasionally lead to incomplete understanding by the student, and an occasional technical error.

A proper response to the student's statement would have been the simple reply that "technically there is a C# that is the enharmonic equivalent of the second semitone above C♭ on equal-tempered instruments." Then, after you've brought the student up to understanding of enharmonic substitutions, you might be able to demonstrate the mathematices of derivation of the numerical value of the coma so that student will comprehend when the equivalences are inappropriate and how much (or little) it matters in the kinds of performance of interest to that student.

Since a conversation of this sort, unless with one of person's own students, is unlikely to occur other than in a pub/tavern, understanding will demand (many?) more than one pint each, for both student and instructor. Depending on the quality of the brew, by the time the lesson ends they either will reach the point of believing they have achieved true understanding or there will be a pub riot, either of which - in some circles - is deemed part of a satisfactory lesson plan.

John

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Ebbie... perhaps somewhat square but you got you got some well rounded edges.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:00 PM

So either the teacher is an idiot who shouldn't be in that job or the guy misunderstood him.

I know where I'd place my bet.. Pupils are often less knowledgeable than their teachers, in fact it's a fairly common phenomenon. Why make unfair assumptions about a teacher you've never met, based on hearsay from a pupil who is obviously of relatively little learning? Could it perhaps be that you just wanted to show off your own knowledge?

The proof of quality musicianship lies in practical demonstration, not in knowledge of musical theory. Which came first - music or the theoretical description of it? Which is ultimately more important?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM

JohnInKansas- a most excellent post.

I would like to nominate it for the Mudcat Post of the Year, if you will accept the honour.



Or I could buy you a pint, if I ever get the chance!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

On the concert harp, B# is a very different animal from C natural, and you can play them both at once if you want to, which is kind of fun. Likewise Cb & B natural, E# & F natural, Fb & E natural. You can do this with all the enharmonics.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM

There is actually a subtle difference between, say, Eb and D#.

"What?" I hear you say, "how can this be?"

Well, I've heard it demonstrated on a violin. In certain tunes the intonation sounds more accurate sharpened or flattened ever so slightly to fit the key and the melody. Technically, there's no difference - in reality, there is.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM

I remember a viola player in college saying that too.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:50 PM

The only music lesson my father ever gave me came one day when the sidewalks were iced over and I was going out and he said to me, C-sharp or you'll B-flat.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From:
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:57 PM

I second Noreen's accolade for JohninKansas.

I'm almost ashamed to have wasted so much time on this rot but John's summation made it worthwhile.

Jack

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

"the guitar is an equal tempered instrument"

Not if you play it properly.

A double-bass player I know said recently when asked what is the difference between Ab and G# said "on my instrument, an inch and a half".

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:08 PM

Never mind the guitar, nor the concert harp, I want one of those BS harps that GSSchweik spoke of at the top there.
Just suit my playing style.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:11 PM

I've watched this merry go round run before. I think I'll mostly sit out this ride, and just throw peanuts at the riders as they coame past ...

QUOTE
Any decent "teacher" has the task of presenting new information in terms that the student can relate to something that the student already understands; and the teacher must avoid the attempt to teach technicalities incomprehensible in the context of the student's existing understanding before the student is prepared for, and capable of understanding, the new information. The lesson must fit the student's needs.

This does occasionally lead to incomplete understanding by the student, and an occasional technical error.
UNQUOTE

This is called the "Lies to Children" Educational Method.

QUOTE
"Quite obviously, josepp learned his music in the manner of a religion, and believes that only the "true faith" may be taught, and that everyone must know and believe his faith."

"I know where I'd place my bet.. Pupils are often less knowledgeable than their teachers, in fact it's a fairly common phenomenon. Why make unfair assumptions about a teacher you've never met, based on hearsay from a pupil who is obviously of relatively little learning? Could it perhaps be that you just wanted to show off your own {limited} knowledge? "
UNQUOTE

Yep, this is why they are called 'Trolls'... Truly, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... and empty vessels make most sound.

QUOTE
////you seem to be obsessed with people being correct, and using correct terminology, none of which has anything to do with being a good teacher.////

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
UNQUOTE

Q. E. D.

:-)

I'll be back - ran out of peanuts.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:45 PM

Pointing out a teacher's mistake is ok; calling a fellow Mudcatter a fool is not.Especially when your own grammar is less than perfect. "Different than" is improper. It is "Different FROM".

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM

In principle I agree with Josepp (and how often does THAT happen!??).

However, the chances that very many people who frequent this forum—or, for that matter, the vast majority of symphony orchestra musicians or classical soloists—are ever going to be called on to make a distinction between C natural and B# are rare indeed.

In fact, one can have a perfectly stupendous career as a world famous singer or instrumentalist without ever encountering a situation where the matter would make a difference. Distinctions between enharmonic notes (one tone that can be written a couple of different ways) has to do with reading music, not playing it.

For example, one of the greatest—and best known—basses/bass-baritones of all time, is the late Ezio Pinza (Ombra Mai Fu from Handel's "Xerxes"), perhaps best remembered for "Some Enchanted Evening" in "South Pacific." Pinza never learned to read music expertly. He could read in a very rudimentary manner, but he could not pick up a piece of music and sight read. He knew—and sang—dozens of full-length operas, oratorios, and concert programs, which he memorized by having someone play the score for him on the piano. He had a very precise and retentive ear!

So memorizing and singing a fairly large repertoire of folk songs and ballads without being able to read music is, compared to Pinza's repertoire, a stroll through the park on a summer day!

By the way, if Ezio Pinza "damaged our culture," someone's going to have to explain, in detail, just exactly how.

I became interested in singing when I was in my late teens and began taking some singing lessons from Edna Bianchi, a rich-sounding soprano who had retired from a successful singing career in the 1920s to the 1940s, which included singing at the Metropolitan Opera. Vocal technique (breath support, placement, etc.), lots of scales and exercises, and into some fairly simple songs. I learned enough about reading music to be able to dope out the melodies of the songs she had me singing, but we never made an issue of reading music. And God knows, she was a more than qualified teacher!

A few years later I became actively interested in folk music, bought myself an inexpensive guitar, and had my girlfriend at the time teach me some chords. She knew how to read music, but we didn't even get into that. No, she did not claim to be a music teacher, she was just showing me chord positions. Later, I took some guitar lessons from a singer of folk songs who had a television show at the time. We never talked about reading music, beyond the fact that he had me learning songs out of a couple of song books, and by then I could puzzle out single line melodies without much difficulty.

I went on to take classical guitar lessons from a couple of different teachers, and since I had decided to make a career of singing traditional songs (this was before the Kingston Trio, so at the time, not everybody and his pet chicken was trying to do it), I took more voice lessons from George Hotchkiss Street, another retired opera singer. His voice as bass, similar to mine.

I also changed my college major to Music, studied at the University of Washington for three years, then moved to the Cornish School of the Arts, a conservatory, where I studied for another two years. I also took private music theory and composition lessons from Mildred Hunt Harris.

All of this is by way of assuring Josepp that I'm not just talking through my hat. I know whereof I speak.

I have had a fairly successful career as a singer of folk songs. Although not all that well known beyond the Pacific Northwest, I've done television, mostly educational television, sung many concerts in the area, sung at folk festivals, at the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, and if not singing somewhere else, I had a regular gig in a local coffeehouse that paid me a fairly decent salary, not just a tip-basket. AND, during the weekdays and evenings, I taught guitar, both folk and beginners in classic, as well as classes of ten or a dozen students a couple of evenings a week.

And yes, I did teach some basic music theory. I don't remember any occasion when the matter of drawing a distinction between B# and C ever arose. As a teacher, I felt that there were things far more important than this sort of esoterica that it was important to get across to my pupils.

As to whether or not I am a competent teacher, I have quite a number of students who went on to perform professionally and some of them went on to teach as well.

I do not agree with the viewpoint that singers of folk songs should avoid musical training lest they lose their free and natural approach to folk music. That's just plain silly. Getting some musical training, including learning music theory, does not "limit you with a bunch of arbitrary rules" as I had some folkies try to warn me early on. It frees you by showing you what is possible! And being able to read music is an invaluable aid. I have a whole bookshelf full of song books and ballad collections that I can draw on for songs while many folk song enthusiasts I know who never learned to read music are limited to learning songs that they can listen to, either sung by other people, or from recordings.

But—

To declare someone an incompetent teacher because they somehow neglected to explain the delicate but earth-shaking distinction between B# and C natural, then march him out in the middle of the parade ground before the rest of the regiment, break his guitar across your knee, cut the buttons off his uniform, and march him around the compound in disgrace before drumming him out of the corps—or sending the lovely, sweet-voiced Claire to the guillotine for not explaining it to me when she was first showing me how to finger G, C, and D7 on my cheap little plywood guitar back in 1952—is, perhaps, a bit excessive!

Don Firth

P. S. C# or Bb

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

Even more esoterically, it is theoretically possible in certain circumstances, in Western European Music Theory, to have 'triple sharps' and 'triple flats'. If you want to challenge that, you really don't know as much Music Theory as you think you do.

But I also agree with Don, most of the time of simple music making, that is irrelevant., and I agree totally with Don's 'excessive' line.. :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:01 PM

'triple sharps' and 'triple flats'

Mark my words, laddy, go too far down that road and you'll end up silly in the head..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:20 PM

////In principle I agree with Josepp (and how often does THAT happen!??).////

No, you don't. You're here to try and pick a fight as usual.

Folks, I'll say this one more time:

I'm not talking about performance. If you're good, you're good--everybody knows that. I'm talking about accepting money to teach something that you are not qualified to teach.

If you teach 500 people music theory wrong and some of them, in turn, teach this to others--you are damaging our culture. There is only one right way to teach music theory. You can't pick and choose and it is not a matter of faith. In Western music theory, there IS such a thing as a B-sharp whether in equal temperament or any other. If you teach people that there isn't, you are wrong. It's as simple as that.

Just because you're good on guitar or a great opera vocalist that does not automatically qualify you to teach music theory. What qualifies you is knowing your music theory.

It's not about making music fun. If you have to have music made fun for you before you learn it, you're not going to make it as a musician. It involves study and it involves practice and it involves lots of both. There's no way around it. You have to take your lessons home and practice them. And if you come back and you're not playing them correctly, your teacher has to know that and he has to tell you that it's not right. He can't do that if he doesn't know how to read music. Sorry, but that's the truth.

And if you're taking lessons from anyone who is skipping the music-reading part and only focusing on performance, I would recommend finding another teacher immediately. You need both. The idea that music theory is going to hurt you is pure stupidity. I've never known anyone whose musical abilities suffered because they knew their music theory. I've known people whose careers never got off the ground beause they didn't know it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Richard from Liverpool
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:54 PM

Not to disagree with your first and most basic premise (of course there's such a thing as B sharp), and not to denigrate music theory (I received a good musical education, thank you very much)

But your "damaging our culture" ideas seem strange, given where we are?

You are aware that one of the basic ideas which motivated the collection of folk music was that culture wasn't just in the hands of people who could read music and discuss the technicalities of music theory? That culture was something that was in the hands of living people going about their everyday lives - and that the music they used as they lived those lives was worth collecting and learning?

Isn't traditional music part of the foundation of our culture? And that music was often transmitted among people with none of the basics of music theory that you talk about! They may not have been able to read key signatures. Surely they were building up our culture, not damaging it!

If you're implying that culture can only survive in a context of technical education, then surely that torpedoes much of the culture that many of us here love, study, and learn to sing or play?


(To recap: absolutely there's such a thing as B-sharp, absolutely learn your music theory if you have the opportunity - BUT I think you've got a pretty distored idea of culture. "Western culture" is not in the hands of only the technically educated, and "western music" is not in the hands of those who have studied music theory. To say otherwise is to deny the contribution to the history of music of those who were not educated in music theory. Which is bonkers, and downright perverse in a community of those who listen to and play traditional music!)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM

»»"the guitar is an equal tempered instrument"
»»Not if you play it properly.

Dave MacKenzie,
I have always had an ear for the pure intervals and find fretted instruments, and all fixed-intonation instruments, to be very frustrating in this regard.
Best I can figure, to play guitar in a meantone or any untempered scale would require tweaking an open tuning to the intervals used in the desired scale, then changing chords using only pure barres, never any other fingering. But this isn't what most people would call playing "properly" with the exception of slide guitar. But I'm talking about just plain old regular chording, maybe some fingerpicking or plucking, definitely some strumming.
If there's another way to play guitar in meantone or just intonation, it would make my day to know what it is!

Thanks in advance!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:37 PM

////But your "damaging our culture" ideas seem strange, given where we are?////

A little bit of explanation, please.

////You are aware that one of the basic ideas which motivated the collection of folk music was that culture wasn't just in the hands of people who could read music and discuss the technicalities of music theory? That culture was something that was in the hands of living people going about their everyday lives - and that the music they used as they lived those lives was worth collecting and learning?/////

But if nobody writes it down, how do you transmit it to others, how do you preserve it. Think of the Nag Hammadi Library. If nobody wrote those books down and buried them in the desert far away from marauding Roman soliders and monks, we wouldn't have any Gnostic writings and wouldn't know of all the amazing competing views there were at that time in that area of the world.

Another guy was Charlemagne. He used to have monks write down all kinds of music he heard. People could come to see him and perform for him and if he liked it, he had it written down. He collected hundreds or thousands of these songs. When his son, Louis the Pious, took over after Charlemagne's death, he believed secular and profane music was a sin and had this library burned. As a result, we know virtually nothing about the music of the Dark Ages or the era just after it. It would have been a priceless collection and definitely dealt a blow to culture when we lost it. How much written music was lost when the Christians burned down the Libaray of Alexandria? Probably thousands of pieces--think if we had them now.

And your statement that preserving folk music was achieved by taking it out of the hands of the theoriticians makes me wince. It smacks of the old rightwing distrust of intellectuals.

////(To recap: absolutely there's such a thing as B-sharp, absolutely learn your music theory if you have the opportunity - BUT I think you've got a pretty distored idea of culture. "Western culture" is not in the hands of only the technically educated, and "western music" is not in the hands of those who have studied music theory. To say otherwise is to deny the contribution to the history of music of those who were not educated in music theory. Which is bonkers, and downright perverse in a community of those who listen to and play traditional music!)/////

I totally disagree. We have the Beatles' music today because some eggheads invented the tape recorder which preserved their music for us because they didn't have the theory to do it themselves. If the Beatles had lived in the 18th century, no one would know who they are today. Another example is Louis Chauvin--a brilliant pianist. Only three pieces of his music survive today? Why? Because three people who knew their music theory--Scott Joplin being one of them--wrote those songs down. Without them, all we'd have is a story. What if Bach or Beethoven didn't know how to read and write music?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:47 PM

Without written music our musical culture would be shared only by demonstration and imitation. In which case it would be the norm to spend enough time to memorize it, then we would spend our lives repeating it, i.e. practising, so it wouldn't be forgotten. If that had been the norm in Bach's time, he would likely have spent more time repeating his already-composed pieces for others to learn, and less time composing new stuff. Considering how much he plagiarized himself, I don't imagine we'd have suffered any great loss of original thought. Further I imagine he would've been well aware of what was groundbreaking in his work and would have ensured its survival.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:11 AM

Crowhugger--

If there's another way to play guitar in meantone or just intonation, it would make my day to know what it is!

John Schneider, I believed, developed a just intonation guitar to play such pieces as Partch's "Barstow". Without his special fingerboard, however, you're probably out of luck! See starting at 4:36:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OH0WgLgaAM

see also
http://www.otherminds.org/shtml/Schneider.shtml

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:46 AM

"No, you don't. You're here to try and pick a fight as usual."

No, Josepp, YOU'RE the one who is here spoiling for a fight, as you do in every thread you open. I have no interest whatsoever in fighting with you. You obviously have an incredible amount of time to waste, judging from the time you spend here. And you're one of these entities who invariably starts out a thread by taking an extreme position with the full intention of stirring up an argument.

In fact, that is obviously your whole purpose here, as is typical of your species.

Nighty night.

Don Firth