No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:41 PM

DM - Just out of interest, how different (in terms of distance) is, say, bottom Ab from G# on a violin? I appreciate there can be a difference when free from the equal temperament of an accompanying instrument such as piano, but always assumed such details were adjusted intuitively by ear, rather than learned literally. To the best of my (hazy) recollection, I don't think I've ever seen such distinctions made on the fingering charts of wind instruments, though my experience is more with 'early' instruments than the more well-developed orchestral ones.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:12 PM

how different (in terms of distance) is, say, bottom Ab from G# on a violin?

Depends on what temperament you're using. The violin itself allows for many different ones.


I don't think I've ever seen such distinctions made on the fingering charts of wind instruments, though my experience is more with 'early' instruments than the more well-developed orchestral ones.

It was absolutely routine on the Baroque flute, and you still find distinct meantone-ish fingerings for Ab and G# in flute books of the mid-19th century. Quantz's book covers it; there are some in the charts in my "Old Scottish Flute Music" collection on the web.

http://www.campin.me.uk/Flute/Webrelease/Flute/Flute.htm

I normally use fingerings like that on the recorder - most descant recorders will give you a lower-register Ab with T12- 45-- and a G# with T12- 456-. An equally-tempered split-the-difference can require half-holing the 6. You get a similar choice between Db and C# on many recorders (though not all).

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

On that diagram, the distance from G(open) to A is c25mm, with G-G# and Ab-A c10mm. G#-Ab is c5mm. The book that reproduced the Prelleur chart gives no indication of whether the original was fingerboard size, and I don't have a full size violin in the house to check.

Interestingly, a few pages further on there is the Extended Meantone Fifth "Spiral" which starts at Fb, laps itself at E, and finishes at B#

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:42 PM

I'm afraid I just blow 'em 'til I think they sound right.. I've never really dabbled with flute much, but your site looks very interesting indeed, I'll enjoy that, thanks.

I appreciate what you mean about different temperaments on the violin, but I just wanted a rough idea of distance in order to understand the degree of accuracy required to have useful control over the temperament. Any example would suffice, though I chose low notes for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:43 PM

Thanks DM, last post was directed at JC.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:00 PM

Dave, what do you mean by "the notes?" The actual sound (frequencies), or the finger positions?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM

Which is to say, can an oscilloscope tell the difference? No. And that's my point.

Don Firith

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:18 PM

Both the frequencies and the finger positions are different, so an oscilloscope would be able to tell the difference.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:55 PM

Here is a chart showing the difference between equal and just temperament.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM

I don't think so. Can you give me a link with authoritative information to verify this?

A 440=A is still 440 cps, whether you call it A, G double-sharp, or B double-flat. Yes, on an instrument such as a violin or cello, one can make the subtle distinctions relative to the key the piece is in, but not on a fixed-pitch instrument such as a piano or guitar. When would a string-player do this? One example would be when the note in question is the 7th degree of a major scale (the leading tone). But one cannot make this adjustment on a fixed-pitch instrument without retuning the instrument for that one specific key. If you tried to retune a guitar to accommodate one specific scale degree, you'd actually have to throw a whole range of other notes off-pitch.

I'm not just making this up. I've had a total of five years in two different music schools, and I've been over this business thoroughly before. Several times. Generally with folk singers who take pride in not having any formal musical training.

Sorry, but that's been my experience. (Documentation to back it up.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:24 PM

Thanks for the chart, Smokey. But it still doesn't alter what I said about fixed pitch and non-fixed pitch instruments.

By the way, I have taken a Physics of Music course in which we didn't just talk about it, but spent some time working with oscilloscopes and other such devices.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:26 PM

(Sorry. Missed the after "have.")

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 10:19 PM

"But it still doesn't alter what I said about fixed pitch and non-fixed pitch instruments."

No it doesn't, nor what I said about being accompanied by fixed pitch instruments. The chart illustrates the differences though, and they would be detectable by modern electronic tuners or an oscilloscope. To be honest, I think by the time a non-fixed pitch player had finished applying the bit of vibrato which (arguably) brings such instruments to life, the difference is largely academic - though that doesn't universally apply, obviously.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 10:33 PM

"Fool's Toupee isn't talking about the same thing"

Having been asked many times to get my name right the viscous malicious AnonTroll who gets her jollies by getting her rocks off from the Ethereal Music of the Sphere inside her head probably would be annoyed just how sickened those singing with her would be when they know that while she is singing Gospel Music with them, she is really just "Mentally Masturbating For Jesus".

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM

I think a dual beam oscilloscope would be necessary to check tuning though, wouldn't it? I've seen that done with crumhorns, prior to the advent of electronic tuners. One beam displays the reference pitch and the other the thing being tuned. At least I think that is what was happening..

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:57 AM

just stick an extra key on the piano and tune it to around 470Hz.

pianos have been around so long, I can't believe no one has fixed it yet.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:59 AM

There used to be keyboard instruments with double black keys, but they never really became popular. That's why Equal Temparament was devised, so that pianos could be roughly in tune, though as Pablo Casals said:

Do not be afraid to be out of tune with the piano. It is the piano that is out of tune. The piano with its tempered scale is a compromise in intonation.

There are similar problems with other ET instruments. It took me a long time to get used to the sound of traditional tunes being played on accordions, as they don't play the same notes as fiddlers, or for that matter, pipers. Traditional singers too, will have a tendency to sing pure intervals rather than ET. And then I came across blues which uses yet another scale system......

As for A=440, a lot of older fixed pitched instruments are tuned differently, and I've heard that American orchestras are starting to tune to A=442.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: s&r
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM

Pianos have equal temperament, but only to a point. Because the bass strings are rigid and a long way from being an ideal string, the harmonics are sharper than they should be and would clash with the higher strings. In an attempt to correct this, pianos use stretched tuning, ie the low strings are tuned flat, and the high strings are tuned sharp.

Stu

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:41 AM

I know, but we've trying not to overcomplicate things.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM

Very very skeptical about this "different frequency" business.

B sharp only exists in keys that require that note to be notated that way because there is alredy a C# so there can't be a C too.

If you slightly flatten or sharpen one of the notes just because you are in a new key, you will have made that note out of tune with the other notes in the new key, which haven't been flattened or sharpened.

Are proponents of this view trying to suggest that Keys with B# in are meant to be dissonant?

And if so, why only on violins etc, why not on Pianos?


There are many more questions to be asked, but to believe this noton I would need satisfactory answers to those for sure.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:17 PM

There are really two separate issues here, one being that of varying temperaments, which affects the frequency but not the notation. The other is logical and convenient notation, which does not affect the frequency of individual notes and generally assumes equal temperament these days.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:31 PM

Singers and players of non-fixed instruments tend to instinctively go for more pleasing intervals when not constrained by the accompaniment of a fixed, equal tempered instrument on which most intervals are actually a compromise.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

Generally though, I go for a smoke in the interval.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 02:27 PM

"Singers and players of non-fixed instruments tend to instinctively go for more pleasing intervals when not constrained by the accompaniment of a fixed, equal tempered instrument on which most intervals are actually a compromise. "

Interesting thought - but it seems inherently contradictory to refer to the idea of comfortable intervals unconnected to fixed points in support of the notion that B# and C are somehow seperate identifiable points on the spectrum of sound.

How can a notion of arbitrary tonality be used to support a notion of fixed tonality?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

"How can a notion of arbitrary tonality be used to support a notion of fixed tonality?"

BINGO!!

On pitch standards (current status of 440=A):    CLICKY #1.

Worth a read:    CLICKY #2.

Can you imagine what the economic impact is on musicians who own fixed-pitch instruments such as flutes, various other woodwinds, brass instruments—cathedral organs (!!)—et al, whenever some bureau of standards decides, for whatever reason, to change the pitch standard?

If you raise the pitch of most instruments, it tends to make them sound a bit brighter, but for the most part, it doesn't make all that much difference. Until your grand piano explodes!

And who might lobby for such a change? Musical instrument makers perhaps?

A piano can be retuned. I can retune my guitar (hoping the change doesn't alter stresses too much). But my upstairs neighbor has little choice but to toss his $9,000 oboe into the Dumpster and buy himself a new one. And St. Mark's Cathedral ten blocks north of where I live, with it's great monster Flentrop organ with its forest of pipes, from the size of a large tree-trunk down to the size of a piccolo, has a real problem!!

This might explain why, whenever someone decides to alter the pitch standard, mobs of musicians tend to storm them with torches and pitchforks.

The establishment of a pitch standard—AND—the development of even temperament amounted to little more than a minuscule compromise in tuning which allows fixed-pitch and variably tunable instrument to play together. And it also made possible such works as J. S. Bach's Twenty-Four Preludes and Fugues for Well-Tempered Clavier. One prelude and one fugue in each key, both major and minor, without having to stop and retune the instrument for each key. It was also noted early on that this made modulating into other keys possible, hence greatly enriching what composers could do. Made Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Leonard Bernstein, George Gershwin possible. And, for good or ill, Shostakovich and Alben Berg.

And you know what? The vast majority of people, no matter what anyone tells you, don't even notice the difference between pure intonation and even-temperment.

Fact.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:15 PM

Foot's Toupee: "
Having been asked many times to get my name right the viscous malicious AnonTroll who gets her jollies by getting her rocks off from the Ethereal Music of the Sphere inside her head probably would be annoyed just how sickened those singing with her would be when they know that while she is singing Gospel Music with them, she is really just "Mentally Masturbating For Jesus"."

Nope..just call them as I see them!...you know, 'Toupee', as 'off the top' of a Fool's head!..You!

At least I gave you some much craved attention....but reserved on the interest!

Don, You're doin' good!

P.S. "..viscous malicious AnonTroll...?"
...and you think of all the names you couldn't get right????(just mine are funnier!)

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:38 PM

"it seems inherently contradictory to refer to the idea of comfortable intervals unconnected to fixed points in support of the notion that B# and C are somehow seperate identifiable points on the spectrum of sound."

In equal temperament, B# and C are the same note/frequency.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:58 PM

If a violinist who is playing in just intonation, as in the chart I linked to, plays a G# in the context of being the major third in the key of E major, they will pitch the note 13.69 cents higher than it would be in equal temperament. If they play an Ab in the context of being the minor third of F minor, they will pitch it 15.64 cents lower than its equal tempered counterpart. So, on a violin playing in just temperament, G# and Ab are about 5mm apart, 29.33 cents, or just under a third of a semitone. They are both just less than a sixth of a semitone 'out of tune' with the note which would be played in E major or F minor on a fixed pitch equal tempered instrument, but on the violin they would sound distinctly more major or minor. I find that difference clearly audible. Consequently, violinists need to be kept under strict control when in an ensemble situation involving fixed pitch instruments. Judicious use of a cattle prod can be beneficial, as can kicking.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:30 PM

Tune a guitar to standard tuning. Play a G chord (320001) and adjust the B string until the chord sounds as sweet as it'll go. Now play an E chord (022100) and chances are the B string will sound horribly sharp. In the G chord the B string is the third, and in the E chord it is the fifth. Equal tempered thirds are further from mathematical perfection than are the fifths, which are much less wrong and far less obvious. You have to sacrifice your ideal G chord to some degree in order to have a tolerable E chord. Also, never use the 7th fret harmonic on a guitar for tuning purposes - it's perfect, and will always be very slightly at odds with the frets - 1.96 cents to be precise.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:32 PM

Methods to find Major thirds relative to a root.

Correct me where I go wrong.

On a Guitar, I play my E string, 1/2 it to get the octave (harmonic), 1/3 it to get the fifth, 1/4 it to get the next octave and then 1/5 it to get my first major third.

This major third is slightly flat.

And technically isn't really a third, but an 18th away from the root note.


Alternatively, I could use a violin to do it as follows.

I play my low G.

I 1/3 it and play that harmonic to find the 5th (except it is actually a 12th) to find D

I tune my d string accordingly, and do the same thing on that to find my A - now I have my 2nd (actually, from the root, a 12th on top of a 12th, which is a 23rd)

A leads to E, then to B - the Major 3rd relative to G

As a pure 5th is slightly sharper than a perfect 5th, by the time we get to B, the intonation has sharpened, and consequently we have a slightly sharper major 3rd than in equal temperament.

But this is measured not really from a 3rd, but (cumulatively) from a 45th.

Such intervals are not discernable by the human ear and for that reason I am still skeptical about the violinists ability to discern knowledgably that he is playing according to just temperament, as opposed to knowing merely that he is a bit sharp or flat of equal temperament.

An enquiring mind wishes to expand further.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:35 PM

"Also, never use the 7th fret harmonic on a guitar for tuning purposes - it's perfect, and will always be very slightly at odds with the frets"

You mean Pure no?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:37 PM

Smokey,

NEVER tune a 12-strings when yer stoned.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:39 PM

I mean mathematically perfect. Pure or perfect, either will do. Three times the fundamental.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

While what Don Firth says is generally correct, he ruins his argument by stating that (equal temerament) "also made possible such works as J. S. Bach's Twenty-Four Preludes and Fugues for Well-Tempered Clavier. One prelude and one fugue in each key, both major and minor, without having to stop and retune the instrument for each key."

To quote 'Sometimes you will see Bach's term, wohltemperirt, translated as "equal tempered," but that's not what it referred to, and it's not what Bach meant...... Indeed, Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier was not written to demonstrate the superiority of ET, as is often claimed. It wasn't even written for ET, but for an irregular temperament that worked in a wide variety of keys. Such a temperament was convenient, yes, because the player didn't have to retune all the time as the keys changed (as would have been necessary with a regular meantone system), but it's irregularity also meant that the flavor of the chords was slightly different in each key, and the character of each key was slightly different. It is no coincidence that this was the era when descriptions of key characteristics really came into their own.'

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:45 PM

Such intervals are not discernable by the human ear and for that reason I am still skeptical about the violinists ability to discern knowledgably that he is playing according to just temperament, as opposed to knowing merely that he is a bit sharp or flat of equal temperament.

It may be a matter of faith :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

"Smokey,

NEVER tune a 12-strings when yer stoned.""

I KNOW!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

A lot of it is down to checking what violinists etc are actually playing.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:49 PM

Re Bach's 48 (not 24), It led to the development of equal temperament but wasn't written for it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:50 PM

"A lot of it is down to checking what violinists etc are actually playing."

And punishing them accordingly. It's no good being soft.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:53 PM

Well I think we have pretty much established that there is such thing a a B# anyway ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:00 PM

Ah, but in what sense?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:02 PM

"J. S. Bach wrote The Well-Tempered Clavier to demonstrate the musical possibilities of well temperament, where in some keys the consonances are even more degraded than in equal temperament. It is reasonable to believe that when composers and theoreticians of earlier times wrote of the moods and "colors" of the keys, they each described the subtly different dissonances made available within a particular tuning method."

(Wiki)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:07 PM

Actually, on a modern piano there are still differences in different keys for the simple reason that no matter how hard you try, you always hit the black notes a tiny bit harder than the white. Major thirds get progressively more prominent in sharp keys, for example.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:13 PM

It exists.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:15 PM

494 posts later, does it really matter THAT much?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM

Do we really need to debate it further?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:16 PM

Should really be in bed by now!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM

Yawn!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:18 PM

Goodnight all!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:18 PM

500