 sj |
||
|
||
No such thing as a B-sharp
|
|
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:52 PM It's a good job that guitar shop isn't near me - they'd never get me out.. You can never have too many guitars in my 'umble opinion, but sadly, money isn't what it used to be. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM Nothing wrong with being a dirty old man - it's always been one of my ambitions and arguably the most realistic of them. I haven't far to go, and I've always practised diligently. Great tales, Don, much thanks. Tootler:- I'm in Derbyshire but I have a sister near Stokesley. If I'm ever up there at the right time.. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:45 PM Well, knowing the young woman, she was given to snide remarks. But then, it appears Segovia did get around a bit. From Wikipedia: "Segovia's first wife was Adelaida Portillo (marriage in 1918). Segovia's second wife (marriage in 1935) was the pianist Paquita Madriguera, who also made some piano roll recordings. From 1944, he maintained a relationship with Brazilian singer and guitarist Olga Praguer Coelho, which was to last for over a decade. Segovia married Emilia Magdalena del Corral Sancho in 1962. [This was the young woman that I met.] They had one son, Carlos-Andrés de Segovia y del Corral." I heard that sometimes when Segovia was away on concert tour, Emilia would put on one of his recordings, then young Carlos-Andrés, barely more than a toddler, would examine the phonograph very carefully, asking, "Papa? Papa?" I have one of Olga Coelho's (Brazilian singer) recordings. The liner notes say that Segovia thought rather highly of her. I thought they were talking about her guitar playing. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:22 PM One of the young women in the guitar society couldn't resist a snide comment out of the corner of her mouth about Segovia being "a dirty old man!" I doubt there was anything snide about it. From what I've heard, he was. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:17 PM I've heard Segovia several times when his concert itinerary took him through Seattle, and met him and had a chance to talk with him briefly on two occasions. One was when the Seattle Classic Guitar Society asked him to do a brief question and answer session for the Society the day after his concert and he agreed. He fielded questions for about an hour (most interesting!). Then, as the session was breaking up, someone slipped me a piece of paper with an address on it and muttered mysteriously that there was going to be a little gathering, and I might like to drop in. I did, and as the host ushered me into the living room, there, in the big easy chair in the corner, sat The Maestro, pipe in one hand, brandy snifter in the other. About a dozen of us sat around in Bill James's living room and chatted with Segovia. One fellow was questioning Segovia about his particular interpretation of a Bach piece. Segovia explained his ideas about the piece, but the guy saw it a bit differently, and he wouldn't let it go. Finally, Segovia asked, "May I ask how old you are?" A bit surprised, the fellow responded, "I'm thirty-six." Segovia, taking his glasses off and cleaning them with his handkerchief said, "Promise me one thing: don't try to play Bach until you're at least fifty-five." That ended that conversation! I mentioned to him that, although I struggled as best I could to play a number of pieces written for the guitar, my main interest was in accompanying British Isles and American folk songs and ballads. He nodded and smiled and allowed as how that was a very honorable role for the guitar. A few years later, the day following one of his concerts there was a reception for him a Ward Irwin's house in Bellevue, across Lake Washington from Seattle. I wound up sitting in the front seat of Bill James's car, with Segovia and his new bride sitting in the back seat. Pleasant general conversation on the way to Ward's house. Charming and gracious man. His new wife, quite young and lovely, didn't say much. She didn't speak English. One of the young women in the guitar society couldn't resist a snide comment out of the corner of her mouth about Segovia being "a dirty old man!" Well, wotthehell, anyway! Segovia was going to be in Seattle for another day, and he asked Ward if he could tell him where he might hire a car and driver so he could show his wife around the area. Ward offered to do the honors, and Segovia graciously accepted. So Ward and his wife got to spend the following day with Segovia and his new bride. There is very upscale guitar store here in Seattle called "The Rosewood Guitar." You can drop a real wad of money in that place. Lot's of high-priced lumber in there, and I did buy a very nice quality instrument there a few decades ago. Steve Novacek, who was proprietor back then, showed me one particular guitar he had in stock. He said that this was the same model José Ramirez that Segovia favored. I tried it, and it had a gawdawful high action at the 12th fret. I commented to Steve about it, and he said that it definitely affects the volume of the guitar—but it takes some getting used to. You develop hands you can crush walnuts with! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM Smokey, If you're interested in finding a recorder group, where are you? I live in Middlesbrough |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM I know a young woman who was a heading-for-world-class gymnast at the same age as that guitarist. Nobody forced her to practice, she just got obsessed with it and spent all her free time at the gym. She had a rather Aspergerish personality. If she'd stuck at it for another year or two she'd have been the next Olga Korbut. Instead she first discovered skateboarding and then real life. I think she's happier the way she is now than the way she could have been. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM I know precious little of Korean culture so it's hard to make assumptions or judgements. I hope she's happy and progresses as you describe. I have mixed feelings about performers as young as that though. As you say, the musicality lags behind at the expense of the technical achievement, but with a grounding like that she stands a good chance of being truly great once she's mastered 'the other side' of it all. I know someone who had a go on Segovia's guitar once, he reckoned the action was about 3/4" at the twelfth fret, but he could be heard clearly by all in the Albert Hall with no amplification whatsoever. I'd love to have seen him. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:16 PM Yeah, I've wondered a lot about that, too. On the one hand, if all goes well, by the time the little lady matures to the point where she really grows to understand the music and have a real feel for it, just about all the technical problems involved in playing should be well conquered and she can devote her attention to the music rather than the notes. For example, that piece (Francisco Tárrega's Requerdos de la Alhambra or "Memories of the Alhambra"—an opulent Moorish palace in Granada), is one I can play, along with a couple of other Tárrega pieces. Technically, she can play it a lot better than I can (except that her tremolo tends to "gallop" a bit in a few spots), but I think I play it with more "feeling" than she does. But in a few years, she'll get there. But—is she doing this because she wants to, or because adults are pushing her? More than one talented kid has been forced to take lessons and practice assiduously by their parents, only to toss the instrument in a corner and run screaming from the house the moment they got a chance. But on the other hand, there are those like Segovia. He fell in love with the sound of the guitar when he was really small (four, some say) and begged his father for guitar lessons. His father was a church organist, and regarded the guitar as "the instrument of the gypsies," and gave young Andés the option of piano or violin, neither of which appealed to him. Segovia senior was afraid his son would wind up hanging out with gypsies if he took up the guitar, so he put his foot down. Counterproductive. Segovia, very young indeed, did start hanging out with the gypsies, getting them to show him things on the guitar. He didn't go for flamenco, of course, but they taught him his basic technique. Very young. Sixish. He simply wouldn't be put off. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM Sorry 'bout that, Don. I have a reputation as a miserable northern git to maintain, so it was my duty to point out the one bum note. You have to wonder how they're taught though. Obviously there's immense talent there, but discipline like that at such an early age surely doesn't just appear on its own. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM Smokey, it was just me going "Du-u-u-uh" and drooling a bit. I was read "2'27" as "two feet, twenty-seven inches" rather than "two minutes and twenty-seven seconds." I found myself sort of hanging there in empty space. Then, a bit later, it sank in that you were speaking of two minutes and twenty-seven seconds into the video. I went back, listened to it again, and heard the extraneous little "twang!" All came clear. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM I think that was my fault, Tootler - more misplaced (UK northern) humour. Apologies for any confusion. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:27 PM Smokey, I agree the Baroque concertos are a different matter. Very much virtuoso pieces. Don, I don't quite know what your confused? message was referring to but if it was to my post just above it, then I was replying to a comment by Smokey a couple of posts previously. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: ripov Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM I've been following this thread for a while, but couldn't add anything you guys hadn't already said. But I just want to say thanks for those links in the last few posts, I hadn't realised how much marvellous stuff was out there! And as Tootler implied this music was written not so much to be listened to as to be played; it makes your fingers itch when you hear it! Incidentally the Pachabel canon (http://imslp.org/wiki/Canon_and_Gigue_in_D_major_(Pachelbel,_Johann)), is appearing on the folk scene, although in true folk fashion it never sounds quite the same twice. Regarding its speed, I wouldn't think it should go too fast, as it's followed by a (not very inspiring) jig! |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM She's amazing, Don, thanks for the link. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:39 PM I wish we had something similar to your group locally but I've not heard of anything. I was thinking more of the solo/concerto stuff when I made that comment though. I love listening to Michaela Petrie, for example, and Michael Copley. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM Uh . . . ? 'Scuse me, but I'm lost. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:32 PM And apologies in return if I misinterpreted you, Smokey. My wife is always telling me I lack a sense of humour :-) To your other comment: Much Baroque and earlier material music played by recorder groups is not really any more difficult than the folky stuff, though you need to get into the style. Until the end of the 18th century composers were commonly employed by wealthy aristocrats who were often competent amateur musicians themselves, so the court composer would be expected to produce music that his employer was capable of playing. Even with Mozart, quite a lot of his music is playable by amateur musicians because, although he went freelance, he often produced music for wealthy amateurs - after all, he had to earn a living. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:18 PM Don, there's a distinct fluff at 2' 27'' - don't they teach them properly over there or something? |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:12 PM I wasn't judging you or your accomplishment, Tootler, I was just being silly. Sorry if I gave that impression. I only ever did folky stuff on the recorder, Irish airs, Carolan, self written, etc. Those proper Baroque players are something else.. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM Yeah, Smokey, she plays a standard classic guitar with a full-length fingerboard. I've linked to this video before, but it's a real jaw-dropper. I sometimes link to it when someone with hands like ham-hocks complains that classic fingerboards are too wide. CLICKY. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM "A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations" Yeah, I've played in bands like that too. That may become my favourite euphemism. I don't want to give the impression I'm particularly accomplished. I'm not. We just play for our own pleasure on Wednesday evenings. We're not up to concert standard or anything like that. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:27 PM That picture of Ida Presti is almost disturbing. More so if you try it. Is it a normal length guitar? It looks it. I have a shorter scale, narrow fretboard Panormo I tried it on as well, and still it's gruesome. I think I'll try to avoid writing anything which demands the playing of 5 simultaneous F flats... |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:42 PM Yeah, maybe, Jack, if I buckle down and practice a bit more diligently. It might come off better as a guitar duet. Some years ago, I took in a concert by the French duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. They did a whole bunch of harpsichord transcriptions, mostly Scarlatti. They sounded great! The Seattle Classic Guitar Society threw a party for them after the concert and I had a chance to meet and talk with them there, although I had to rely on my lame high school French. Lagoya gave me a couple of good tips on right hand finger action. Here's a photo of Ida Presti being a smart-ass and showing off her seven fret stretch. All E's. The Seattle Classic Guitar Society has some really sharp players in it. One of them is Michael Partington, seen here busking in Seattle's downtown bus tunnel (CLICKY #1). Not that he needs to. He has CDs out, a full concert schedule, and he recently took over from the retiring Steven Novacek as head of the classic guitar department at the University of Washington School of Music. Another is Elizabeth CD Brown, who graduated from the U. of W. music school and now teaches at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, WA. She plays modern classical guitar, lute, and in this video, a Baroque guitar: CLICKY #2. I'm not up in the lofty heights that these two kids have achieved, but I can generally blunder my way around a fingerboard without getting lost too often. But there's certainly penty of inspiration in these parts. I play and sing for the Society every now and then. Taking a leaf from Richard Dyer-Bennet's book (although as a bass-baritone, I don't sound at all like him), I present myself more as a "modern day minstrel" than as a "folk singer." Although the vast majority of what I sing are folk songs and ballads, I do sing a few other things, such as some songs from Shakespeare's plays and an art song or two. It's not a matter of snobbishness on anybody's part, but unfortunately too many guitar society members have met (mutual interest in the guitar) too many folkies who make something of a fetish about being musically ignorant, and sometimes they can get a bit belligerent about it. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM An even simpler bass line is the one in Marais's "Sonnerie": Harnoncourt and friends playing the original instrumentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhr3BTrZFgM Really nice solo harpsichord arrangement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhsbdoRfr0 (I suspect Don could do that on the guitar). |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM "A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations" Yeah, I've played in bands like that too. That may become my favourite euphemism. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:04 PM Josepp? Who's Jo--Oh! HIM! Nah. He's history. We're having our OWN party! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:51 PM Pachelbel probably intended his Canon to go much faster than those leaden performances from the 1970s. This is a bit more like it: Yes I found that one just before I read your post. I liked it, they are very good. It reminded me of a string quartet I saw perform in Covent Garden on a Sunday morning some years ago. Here is another piece by the same group - note the cool guitar <grin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZ79HjPh2M&feature=relmfu A recorder group I play with play a different set of Bergamasca variations. Not as quickly as that though! |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Dave Hanson Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:49 PM Why are you all feeding this troll josepp ? Dave H |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tootler Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:44 PM Then there was the eighties... I preferred the 70s Do you mean like this? |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM The key of B# is more a state of mind than a statement of pitch. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:48 PM Great version!......Still think it was in B#???? D! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM Then there was the eighties... I preferred the 70s. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM Pachelbel probably intended his Canon to go much faster than those leaden performances from the 1970s. This is a bit more like it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvNQLJ1_HQ0 |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM It's a little known fact that Pachelbel actually stole those chords from a much older Roman folk song, "Trivi Londinium". Not many people know that. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM Boy!!!..Here we are again!!!!!..Whatcha got in mind?....(Wink) GfS |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM Yup! Gotta keep this sucker rollin. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:15 PM ...and actually, I like Pachelbel's Canon.....I just put that there, for everyone to trip out on, and clock the chord changes....AND....to suck up another post, for ol' Smokey and josepp. GfS |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Don Firth Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:40 PM Yeah, Pachelbel's first name IS Johann. Actually, his canon is a lovely, tranquil sounding piece of music, but I can see how someone who plays the bass instrument in the ensemble, laying down the (technical term alert!!) "ground bass" (no relation to "ground chuck"), which consists of the same two measures played over and over and over and over and over—could wind up losing any sense of tranquility and start trying to juggle his or her own head. For those who are not sure exactly what a canon is (not a large, heavy gun on wheels), suffice it to say that a round (e.g., "Frère Jacques" or " Row, Row, Row Your Boat") is a simple form of canon. There was a fellow in the Seattle Song Circle some years ago who worked Pachelbel' Canon out on a dulcimer. Since it consists of four parts (three violins and a cello, as written) and the Appalachian dulcimer has only three strings, toward the end, he got kinda busy. But it sounded pretty good. Here is the Canon in D as Pachelbel intended it should sound. Actually, nice piece of music. Try this on your nose flute. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:36 AM Oooh, and Tattie, Pachelbel's Canon is in 'D'...... GfS |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:33 AM Don Firth: ..."P. S. A few other composers at the time, or pre-dating Bach a bit, had also been pushing for equal-temperament. One of these was Johann Pachelbel, composer of the well-known "Pachelbel's Canon" (which an acquaintance of mine insists on calling "Tinker Bell's Canon." Tattie Bogle: "Now would the Canon be related to the B sharps? Please tell me flatly." Well, for your fun, but informative input... ..........and Don Firth is right about this!!!! Enjoy!!!! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Smokey. Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:00 AM My conscience compels me to confess that I was,in fact, bluffing. I can't juggle at all - merely toss, as 999 would say. He's Canadian though. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Tattie Bogle Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM A head-case! Now would the Canon be related to the B sharps? Please tell me flatly. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: gnu Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM Yer a case alright. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,999--darned memory Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM But that brings us to a connummmdru/conummdrum/connomdrom problem. If you're juggling with your own head, and the chicken is in the air, what weill you do when it flies away? Uh? Well? Ha! No answer, just as I thought. But yer a shoo in for the Sleepy Hollow job. Got a horse by any chance? Juggling a head, chicken and dog while riding a horse--like, wow! Who's gonna follow that act? I rest my case. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: GUEST,999 Sorry again! Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM I take issue with Smokey. He said he'd saw off his own head and juggle with it, but you can't juggle with just one head. That's more like tossing it, NOT juggling. I mean, juggling is like having three or more heads in the air at one time--and don't even think of trying the old switcheroo about chickens laying eggs and dogs with equally distempered clavicles. Of course if ya had one head, a chicken AND a dog with an an equally distempered clavicle playing an equally tempered claviar from the Walloons, then ya'd have a spectacle, with or without a lens grinder. Nof offense, Smokey. Just tryin' ta keep the record straight. |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Lox Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:12 AM What a great thread! ... in the end ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:32 AM Glad we sorted that out, Don. However, apart from the use of ET in classical music, whether we date it from the 17th century or 1917, most musicians in other genres would not be using it, eg Highland pipers or blues guitarists. (and before anyone asks, there isn't a B# on the pipe scale - the notes are referred to as G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G & A no matter how they relate to the classical notes). |
