No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:57 AM

Thanks, Bruce, that means a lot to me.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:02 AM

"But there are many things in music that don't show up in the notation. I've always thought the notation for traditional music is like a road map. It is very useful for learning the route, but when you are actually driving you should have your eyes on the road."

Rules are for guidance of the wise and blind obedience by fools.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:34 PM

"And for those who don't llike my threads"

josepp, I think your threads are wonderful. Truly. You are an amazingly smart man. But you insult people just because you can. I'm from a different part of town, and where I'm from that kind of insulting is a quick trip to where no one really wants to go. Before you tell me you don't care, allow me to tell you that that don't matter. What matters is the things you say and the things you do. So far ya ain't said nothin' that recognizes the intelligence of the people with whom you speak.

This being a forum for opinion, you have a right to think of the threads you start as being yours. But it's kinda like having to take a piss. Yes you have the right, but there are times and places. In the local department store is not the place, and until after closing it ain't the time. Might scare the horses.

The reality you may or may never come to see: One of the people you have dissed is a revered musician and writer, Don Firth. Another is an excellent composer, Smokey. Another is Will Fly: Talk about a sense of humour. And Tom Bliss was and is a man whose departure from making music in the real public forum made me cry. I will never tell anyone who you are, but I'll know. And you'd best know also that it sometimes takes more than being cute to impress people. Manners always are better. Please develop some. I won't insult your beard or ragtime singing and playing; you please do not insult my friends.

Bruce Murdoch

PS When you look me up, that scar on my face was the result of a really stupid decision on my part. I have no idea what the scar on your heart is from. If you ever feel you want to speak about it, message me. I'm easy enough to find.

I am sorry to the many people on this thread I haven't named. Please write it off to old age and a failing mammary. (I see tits in the distance and I miss the Rocky Mountains.)

B

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:33 PM

A teacher who truly understands the significance of and difference between B# and C is not necessarily a better teacher than any other given teacher. There are obviously many factors. However, in my opinion, the same teacher with the knowledge is better than the version of him/herself without the knowledge. For Josepp, not knowing it is a deal-breaker. For many here, given the specific instrument, genre, and goals, it is not.

In Western music, the B#/C distinction is not trivial or esoteric. It may not be necessary knowledge for many or most performers in a particular genre, but that does not take away from its importance. It's significance goes beyond writing/reading or labeling. It relates to a feature of many types of Western music (and beyond) that plays a role even if the performers are not consciously aware of it. They do not have to be consciously aware of it to perform. Most intuit it and learn through enculturation.

"Folk" musicians and people who don't read music notation have as much music "theory" as anyone else. It's ingenuous to pretend one is being more natural or practical because they aren't well versed in common practice Western music theory. Music is not just sound. It is sound organized by humans, and that organization occurs, to one degree or another, according to certain "rules." Performers in a given musical system subscribe to those rules. Theory describes or, in some cases, prescribes those rules. The B#/C distinction is one result of an attempt to describe the rules.

Josepp may come off as abrasive and rigid in his opinions, but to argue back by discounting the significance of the B#/C distinction is, in my opinion, misguided. Musical truth and understanding shouldn't suffer because one doesn't agree with Josepp's assessment of this one particular situation.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM

///Having said that, I am curious and very skeptical about the idea that he "couldn't" read music.

He played with Louis Armstrong, with Coleman Hawkins, with Dizzy Gillespie ... to name just three out of a list of great musical innovators.////


And Sir Duke--Django played with him. Something tells me Duke might have known a thing or two about reading music. And Louis was one of the best sight-readers in jazz--possibly that ever lived. He was always good but Lil Hardin really got him going because she was highly trained. Lil played with a lot of jazz musicians who could not read but some of these guys did eventually learn to read because it was a necessity if they wanted to lead a band. Kid Ory, for example, learned to read music by studying the sax, which he was rather adept on. In fact, he wrote "Savoy Blues" with a sax. The only bandleader I know of that didn't read or even play was Kay Kyser. He got the gig because it was college corn band that needed a leader so he took them on.

////The stuff they were doing requires a solid grounding in basic chord theory.////

I don't think you could get a job with King Oliver or Jelly Roll Morton if you couldn't read. Especially Jelly Roll because it would have irked him something fierce to know you couldn't comprehend his beautiful notes of genius gracing the page.

////There isn't much info on Django education and I doubt he got his Theoretical knowledge from his early romani mentors - it would have come from the musicians he admired and loved in America.////

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the other Roma in his life. Roma were to Europe what blacks were to America in terms of musical contributions. Hard to say. He was such an unusual cat. Once he missed a show because he wouldn't get out of bed. He missed another show once when he decided to go for a walk and smell the flowers. He was impoverished his entire life. The suits you see him in were borrowed. He died with no money--which was also how he lived. Les Paul bought him a gravestone because he was very close to Django and both of them loved Eddie Lang (whose real name I believe was Salvatore Massaro).

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:57 PM

"Just my opinion, I am by no means a music scholar. I am an education major though, and for the folks talking about learning to play the instrument before reading music, we call it "sound before symbol" and it is universally accepted among educators   :)"

I was an educator--well, that's what my degree says. I wish you success with your calling. It's important work, and you should be very proud of yourself--but let other people tell you that. Good to meet you.

Bruce

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:30 PM

Tootler- :)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM

"As for rhythms, you're going to lose that. But so what? Make your own."쳌

No go with that one, Josepp! Rhythm is the underlying superstructure of a piece of music, especially of the kind of music(s) that John is speaking of. A polka without the correct rhythm wouldn't be a polka. Nor would a waltz. Or a minuet. Or a schottische. Or the second act of Swan Lake. How about a halyard chantey or a track-lining song, where the whole purpose is to keep people in rhythm? The fact that you include sea chanteys in your litany of songs that can do without rhythm or can be done in any old rhythm whatsoever" seems to demonstrate a certain level of cluelessness. Somehow singing "The Wreck of the Old 97"쳌 in the same relatively free rhythm as "Black is the Color of My True Love's Hair" strikes me as, well, kinda weird. Old 97 would have run out of steam before it even got out of the station. Whereas, doing a driving rhythm with "Black is the Color" I'm not quite sure how to go about that. Nor would I want to.

There is a difference between doing something new and creative and just being bloody inept!

Before I met Antonio Zori, one of the flamenco guitarists who was accompanying that dancers at the Spanish Village at the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, I had acquired a simple beginners’ book for flamenco guitar by a fellow named Jack Buckingham. And later, a more comprehensive one by Ivor Morantz. Plus a series of articles in "The Guitar Review," a magazine put out by the Classic Guitar Society of New York on various aspects of flamenco and how to play it, along with a lot of written music. And a folio by guitarist Vincente Gomez. I got all the notes right, and I got what I thought was the rhythm, at least according to the notation. But I couldn't make the Alegrias or Soleares or Farruca sound like the ones I heard on the recordings of Mario Escudero or Carlos Montoya or Sabicas.

Antonio started me on an Alegrias which he said (in Spanish and managed, conveyed to me by another fellow who was taking the lesson with me and could manage a bit of high-school Spanish) as a basic rhythm for several of the (now get this!) dance forms.

You see, although flamenco guitar became popular in concerts several decades back, it was used prior to that primarily for dance accompaniment. laying down usually fairly complex but set rhythm, with the "falsettas" or flashy scale runs and such giving the guitarist a chance to show off a bit while the dancers were catching their breath or a quick beer.

In the sheet music, the basic rhythmic unit of the Alegrias appeared four measures of 3/4. But it didn’t sound like it at all. I turns out, as Antonio explained it and demonstrated it, twelve beats with specific beats emphasized. Not

1 - 2 - 3, 1 - 2 - 3, 1 - 2 - 3, 1 - 2 - 3. No.

The beat for the Alegrias is as follows:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12

The last two beats are sort if "throw away"쳌before the next phrase. The "faslettas" or "fancy stuff"쳌follows the same rhythm.

Once I heard Antonio's actually fairly simple explanation, the whole tangled knot came unraveled. It was like the sun coming up!

Is rhythm important? Damn straight it's important!

If I had not looked at the attempts to notate flamenco rhythms, I might very well have been able to pick them up just by listening instead of getting myself all confused by trying to jam in into conventional expectations.

I have since seen a far better attempt at using standard notation for the correct rhythms for the various flamenco forms than had first been presented to me, but it requires a couple of introductory paragraphs to explain which notes to stress and how essential they are. Just presenting the notes, even with the stress marks, usually won't adequately convey how important they are.

About a year later, I had a chance to be at a party after a concert in Seattle by the "Ballet Basque de Biarritz."쳌 The dancers were listening to a little American folk music from a couple of us, when I started fiddling a bit with a Farruca. One of the girls in the troupe was adept at flamenco and she jumped up and started in. She and I had one helluva good time as I played the guitar and she stomped the crap out of the floor!!

Man, what a snort!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:08 PM

"////(Poor old Django - couldn't read a sodding note - and him with just a thumb and two useful fingers as well - goddammit!)///

But he wasn't teaching music theory to people, either, was he?"


Ooof!!!!!


I think - even more than performing whilst disabled - Djangos biggest achievement is that despite his young death he is still teaching aspiring virtuosos to this day.


Having said that, I am curious and very skeptical about the idea that he "couldn't" read music.

He played with Louis Armstrong, with Coleman Hawkins, with Dizzy Gillespie ... to name just three out of a list of great musical innovators.

The stuff they were doing requires a solid grounding in basic chord theory.

So even if its true that he didn't read, his knowledge of theory was comprehensive. Every time he picked up a guitar, he would describe, in his solos, every element of Jazz theory as it stood at that time - solos as harmonically explicit as his do not happen by accident. He was aware of new key centres and he was able to anticipate their arrival in the true tradition of jazz improvisation.

You can hear in his playing that He fully understood II-V-I cadences, and that he understood the notion of superimposing alterations on the V, whether by using the harmonic minor or the diminished scale.

He may not have used these terms, but he was 100% clear in his mind about how the concepts worked.

Any idea that he just played magic notes that came to him from the universe is one that discredits him, just as it discredits geniuses like Charlie Parker, Miles Davis and John Coltrane.

Of course his ear was great - in fact it was awesome - but there is no jazz without some kind of theoretical understanding, whether learned as an apprentice or as a student.

There isn't much info on Django education and I doubt he got his Theoretical knowledge from his early romani mentors - it would have come from the musicians he admired and loved in America.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:22 PM

It would depend who's doing it. I once had a Beatles songbook where it looked like a piano player notated it because the chords were bizarre. Nothing like a guitarist would do. I was looking at songs I can play in my sleep and laughing at how the guy botched it up. They were written for guitar but they weren't guitar chords!

As for rhythms, you're going to lose that. But so what? Make your own. Look at all the blues songs that have the same lyrics in them. Same with sailor chanteys. Just make your own. Take what's there and make it yours. Who wants to be a carbon copy?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:10 PM

Can anyone tell me how an Irish reel would be notated? Or a Boda polska from Sweden?

The reason I ask is that many folk tunes need the "feel" of the rhythm. Even if you could notate it accurately, which I doubt, the best music reader in the world wouldn't be able to make it sound right without first knowing the playing style.

All the notation I've ever seen for a reel involves straight eighth and sixteenth notes. Boda polskas are usually written with quarter note triplets over the first two beats of the measure. Playing them the way they are written would be the exact reason so many trad players don't really like classical violinists who learn the tunes from the notes. There's nothing wrong with playing a tune that way, of course, unless you think you're making them sound like Irish or Swedish tunes.

This is not to say that reading isn't important. It is. But there are many things in music that don't show up in the notation. I've always thought the notation for traditional music is like a road map. It is very useful for learning the route, but when you are actually driving you should have your eyes on the road.

This isn't just true of traditional music. I'm deeply familiar with Led Zeppelin's music and I've seen a lot of their songs written out. The notation doesn't even come close to capturing the feel of the music. It doesn't even get the rhythmic nuances.

Music scholarship is great, but it's only tangential to the main event.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

And for those who don't llike my threads--leave and go argue about the merits of Obama's campaign in Libya. Or whine about the all the radiation in Japan that you can't do a thing about. Or stay here and get your 2 cents in about the ups and downs of music theory--at least somebody gave you that option.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:28 PM

////Josepp, every time you start a thread you sound as though you're spoiling for a fight. According to you, things aren't regulated enough.../////

I don't think my opening statement sounded anything like I was picking a fight. But it doesn't matter. It generates a more animated discussion than the usual tripe here.

///YouTube commenting behaviour is disgusting and should be thoroughly policed, goddammit!////

Hey, I agree!

////People who pick up a musical instrument should read music, goddammit!///

And I agree with that too!

////(Poor old Django - couldn't read a sodding note - and him with just a thumb and two useful fingers as well - goddammit!)///

But he wasn't teaching music theory to people, either, was he?

////Why not try opening up a topic with something positive - nay, even benign - for a change? Relax - chill - have a good time - make music.////

I do it they way I want to do it. I don't care who gets pissed off.

///Too bad, josepp, that you are tethered to the sheet music.////

Oh, yes, so sad--boo hoo.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM

Just a comment to Josepp about the learning of the Lead Belly song:

Too bad, josepp, that you are tethered to the sheet music. That must severely limit the songs you can learn to what you can find in books and sheet music. I feel fortunate that not only can I read music quite adeptly, but I seem to have a pretty good, retentive ear as well. A couple of times through and I usually have the tune in my head. Very handy!

In addition to the song and ballad collections on my bookshelves accumulated over the years, from which I have learned many songs, I have a very large library of records, tapes, and CDs from which I have also learned many songs—by ear. And I generally take my own approach to a song and I work out my own arrangements, but if there is something unique and appropriate to a particular song, I will often adopt it.

For example, I learned that particular Lead Belly song ("Where Did You Sleep Last Night"—originally known, before people became all nervous about political correctness, as "Black Girl") in the mid-1950s, from one of his Folkways Records. I've never seen sheet music for the song, nor have I run across it in a song book.

Were you aware that Lead Belly's starting and ending chord on that song is an A7 chord? Most unusual! I picked that up by ear from the record. And in a conversation with a singer-guitarist friend of mine who had heard, and seen, Lead Belly at one of the Swarthmore folk festivals in the late 1940s, he verified it.

What does your vast store of knowledge about notation and music theory tell you about that?

Onward.

My particular complaint with Josepp's initial rant is not about the factual nature of B# and C being enharmonic notes (on a fixed-pitch instrument such as a piano or guitar, the same pitch written two different ways in order to preserve the consistency of the way in which the scale is written, a matter more of "musical grammar" than of actual tones), my quibble is with his draconian reaction to the teacher's making a minuscule error in explaining scale structure to his pupil (if, indeed, that is what the teacher said).

I have known many teachers who are excellent at imparting technique, and more importantly, teaching musicianship in general and a general love of music, whose knowledge of some of the more obscure minutiae of music theory is, perhaps, a bit shaky. But oftentimes the specific subject never even comes up.

In addition to this, most at least semi-serious music students take from more than one teacher. I have had lessons from two folk guitarists, one who didn't even read music, three classical guitarists, both of which could, and one genuine flamenco guitarist, who not only could not read music, he couldn't speak English (and I don't speak Spanish; we sat face to face with our guitars and he would demonstrate slowly, then I would try to do what he did. We'd repeat the ritual until I got it, and it worked) ; and three different voice teachers, each of whom covered much of the same ground, but each had a somewhat different emphasis, all of which proved valuable to me.

A serious student seeking a career in music may attend one or more music schools or conservatories, where they will encounter dozens of teachers in various specialties. One of the teachers I had at Cornish was a fine pianist, but she mainly taught sight-singing and ear-training, including the finer points of music notation. The matter was also covered in a music calligraphy (writing and transcribing music manuscripts) class that I also took at Cornish. If one teacher misses something, one of the others will probably pick it up.

Even if ALL of the teachers miss the same tiny bit of esoterica, the student may >u>still enjoy a marvelously successful career in music without ever encountering a situation in which the missing knowledge of this tiny detail will ever raise its head. I sincerely feel that a teacher's failure to impart this small detail—that on a fixed pitch instrument, a B# and a C are the same tone, although written differently to maintain the consistency of the scale structure—is hardly just grounds for calling the community together, dragging the teacher out onto the stage of a large music hall or arena before a vast audience, and subject him or her to being drawn and quartered before the multitudes as an example to all other music teachers.

A bit . . . excessive, perhaps. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM

Very nice, especially for a "first Mudcat post." Couldn't have said it any better myself ~ and I've tried!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,chinacat
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

OK take it easy, this is my first MudCat post:

I'd just like to say, as the B# issue has been done to death, that I have been playing stringed instruments (guitar, banjo, mandolin, mountain zither) constantly since age 8 and am now 21. I took 2 or 3 years of lessons once a week and learned to interpret written music at a basic level. Although I know it would be much much much easier to learn Bach's lute pieces (my favorite) by sheet music, I end up listening to them if I want to learn. By the same token, I don't speak Old French but after listening to Les Menestriers for an hour I can sing "La Rond du Jaloux" and in a couple hours of listening I can sing Congolese folk songs with moderate fidelity (time makes it better)- and by the way, Congolese traditional songs are incredibly tough to learn I'll wager for a westerner even with professional training. I don't know what differentiates a Gsus from a Gsus9 and I don't know the difference between the absolute minor and the relative minor. Over the years I have heard lots of folks pull out a lot of terms I don't know. If I hum an A and the song makes harmony with it, then as far as I'm concerned the song is in the key of A. I use relative tuning. I have been known to sing harmonies using, occasionally, what I understand to be called "microtonals". The funniest thing to me is that I will hear a song, play it a hundred times the way I remember it, and then when I hear it again it sounds foreign to me; as though I had earlier listened to a completely different song. I am not against theory-in a way I envy those who master it (like Bach), but for all the faults of human memory and perception their error allows for advancement and evolution the same way that an error in DNA duplication has certainly lead to incredible advantages for the human race. If we had the Modern Language Association (MLA) in Jesus' time, well we would still be speaking Latin wouldn't we? With art as with humanity - if we(it) stop(s) evolving, we(it) die(s).

Just my opinion, I am by no means a music scholar. I am an education major though, and for the folks talking about learning to play the instrument before reading music, we call it "sound before symbol" and it is universally accepted among educators   :)

ANYHOO I guess my point is that I just take umbridge with the bashing of non-sight-readers

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:01 PM

200

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:50 PM

If B sharp exists - how come its not got its own house - like C Sharp?

Ah! didn't you know it has? It's next door to C sharp and they are both across the road from B natural and C natural.

In case you ask about the flats; they're all in a block at the end of the road.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north.

Would that be Armstrong's horse?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

josepp says: Now, that was stupid, wasn't it? You know you're going to get proven wrong. I'm looking at sheet music for a song called "You Don't Know My Mind" and in the 4th measure--lo and behold!--a B-sharp.

Since you clearly didn't understand a thing of what I was talking about, it's hard for me to feel proved wrong. I'd normally enjoy making myself more clear to you, but you'd have to be a lot less of a jerk to make me want to.

I'll refresh it for you: It's about the fact that B-sharp exists not whether you've ever ecncountered in your music. Are we stright now?

No, it's about whether or not a teacher was a fraud and a danger to our culture because you heard second hand that he said that B# and C are the same note or something. And it has become about whether or not someone can be a good musician if they don't ever consider the concept of a B#.

Of course everyone here knows that B# exists, if you happen to be reading music in C#. Everyone also knows that, in equal temperment for most instruments, B# and C are the same note, the only difference being that it is more convenient to write one or the other depending on what key you're in.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

Dear josepp, put your money where you're mouth is and place some of your playing on youtube, we will then be able to see the benefits of an extensive theoretical background in music which many of us lack. Something with a B sharp in it would be nice.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

Folk tunes have typically been passed aurally from player to player over a number of years. Transcriptions are only interpretations of the tunes; many players embellish the tunes as they play.
Myself and a couple of friends when leading a tune session sometimes meet people who have just learnt the tune from a score and will suggest we are playing the wrong notes. Our usual response is, this is how we like to play it, we like the way it sounds. Music theory is OK as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually making live music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

Music is sound.

Musical notation is a way to describe and record musical sound. It is, necessarily, less than perfect, and therefore involves all kinds of complicated subtleties in cases where an effort is being made to "write" musical sound with the utmost precision. Hence the current controversy.

This is NOT a case of "the chicken or the egg," where there is any possible doubt about "which came first." Music came first, and is absolutely primary; musical notation is secondary.

Not to denigrate music theory or musical literacy, which are as important in their own roles as reading-and-writing literacy. But reading and writing are not more important than the thoughts and ideas that they express, and certainly no more critical than spoken language.

Teaching and learning the craft of playing a musical instrument (including the voice) is not the same as a study of theory. As a student becomes more adept and advanced, different aspects of theory will occasionally come up and need to be explored. But the first and most basic effort should always be a concern with how to make a sound, the right sound, with the highest possible degree of musicality.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

I lack your eloquence.

Oh I don't know. "You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north" sounds pretty eloquent to me! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM

Tom, Bruce M here. Congratulations on the commission.

josepp is a mediocre singer/guitar player compared to you, and I've heard both of you. You with your 'do it by ear' (same way I do it) works, and that is what really matters. I too never got the hang of reading music. I too understand the theory, and given the notation, I'm capable of working it out, but I have never done it enough to become adept at it. Dyslexia is a cast-iron sob to deal with. You have done so by developing a great memory for tunes and chords. Good on ya!

josepp, you seem to have no compassion for other people. It's all about joseep. Give it a fuckin' rest. You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north.

Will Fly, it seems I agree with you although I lack your eloquence.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

err - actually within that analogy; you were suggesting that people should ONLY look at the moon through a telescope, and not to do so was to risk cultural damage.

I don't have a telescope but think the moon looks nice through tress, or riding on clouds, or reflected on water.

I believe people should be free to look or not as suits them - but my warning was this: if you train people only look at the moon through a telescope you may deny them these beautiful images.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM

Josepp, every time you start a thread you sound as though you're spoiling for a fight. According to you, things aren't regulated enough...

YouTube commenting behaviour is disgusting and should be thoroughly policed, goddammit!

People who pick up a musical instrument should read music, goddammit!

(Poor old Django - couldn't read a sodding note - and him with just a thumb and two useful fingers as well - goddammit!)

Why not try opening up a topic with something positive - nay, even benign - for a change? Relax - chill - have a good time - make music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

///Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.////

And you don't need a telescope to look at the moon. Does that mean you shouldn't do it?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

/////But I would like to pick josepp up on this:

"I don't know why anyone would argue that [being able to read] is not a required ability. You're always a better musician for knowing it--always."

I'll agree that it's better to be able to read than not, because writing and reading is a great way to communicate music quickly and reliably, but there are two things you might like to consider which your posts suggest you have not.

Some people - specially certified dyslexics like me - are physically incapable of reading music (I've known all the theory all my life, and I can write it, but not read it back). People still seem to think I'm a decent composer, arranger and player. (Writing a 2 hour musical on commission at the moment, as it happens)./////

Sorry but you're disabled and you have to accept it. You can't do things most people can do. Sorry about that. But I'm not changing my opinion to suit you. You have your way because you have no choice. I do have the choice so I use it.

Sorry.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:48 AM

There are people who write with intelligence and prescience. Some are literate, some are not.

I prefer to read the articles or books of people who are literate because they, in the course of having to acquire literacy, had more experience of a broader scale which means they can make more qualitative choices about their ideas, but not always.

There are many musicians who don't read music and know theory, great players, great feelers,expressive, communicate, and satisfy a musical experience.

Many of them have the humility not to make pronouncements about that with which they are unacquainted.

B sharp is the seventh note of a C# major scale. There are few instances where a folk performer would care or think about a C# scale and it isn't essential to some forms of music making. However, B# exists in many compositions by composers.

When it comes to musical composition, I think it's better to be sharp than to be flat.

If you are a brass player, than I must qualify that last statement.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

Tom - a fair comparison for what you describe would be the job of touch typist.

Many touch typists say that they have no idea what they have typed up, the information they process goes straight from eye to finger and they are able in many cases to chat away about unrelated subjects as they type.

That however is not an argument against reading.

And I agree that it is not a way of developing an understanding of music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

If B sharp exists - how come its not got its own house - like C Sharp?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:35 AM

Lox, you may be right about the lack of creative education, but now has been I think well proven that teaching people what is essentially a mechanical process, involving eye to brain to finger (dot on page straight to keyboard or recorder or whatever) bypasses the part of the brain that needs to be developed to interpret music fully (the auditory cortex, is it?).

This does not mean that everyone who learns this way will be unable to hear or interpret music, or be unable to improvise, play from memory etc, but it may mean that some people will not develop as fully as they would have done if music had been learned the other way round.

Obviously you can do the theory/written stuff as you go along, but the priority always needs to be sound/listening/making noises first - which is not how most UK kids are taught, sadly.

It;s not only the music teachers who have got this wrong.

The BBC - an audio medium managed to contrive language courses which used books as the primary reference, with just a little cassette tucked into the back cover for pronunciation.

As any fule kno, the best way to lear a language is to go to where they talk it and join in (just as toddlers do). Then catch up with the spelling and grammar afterwards.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: harmonic miner
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM

I'm very surprised no-one mentioned the Be Sharps by the way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer's_Barbershop_Quartet

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM

"Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music."

True, but you can say the same thing about stories poems and news.

On the other hand, a proficient reader can "hear the page" when they read a musical score.

These days most people get their stories off youtube and the TV and they get their music from mp3s and the radio.

You and I can, if we want, convey concepts to each other in words.

Musical notation, theory, literacy etc allow musicians to do the same thing wityh music without having to write reams and reams of cumbersome descriptive words like the ones you and I are using now.

If you want to learn to speak chinese, it makes sense to learn some characters at the same time so you can write to your chinese friends etc.

I think the problems you describe are due to a non creative education not down to whether kids are able to read.

When kids experience of music is to only play (say) exactly what they are told, it means they get no practise being creative or developing their ear.

Sad indeed, but not the fault of theory or notation.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

Well, I will say this about B sharp. Knowing it's there makes me want to write a jingle for the Gillette Razor company.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM

I don't think I ever said that B# IS a C. Just that I think of it as such to reduce my note count.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:55 AM

Tom,

'Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.'

Brilliant!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:52 AM

"The myth I like to dispel is that Reading and improvisation are somehow mutually exclusive."

Yes. I would like to dispel that myth - if there is one - too. It is patently not the case.

Learning to play by ear before learning to read is benign. Leaning to read before learning to play by ear is not - and can be a major inhibitor of thinks like improv. It may only be a small minority who suffer (we don't have stats, I don't think), but the precautionary principle demands that we routinely teach beginners to listen and copy first, THEN show them the convenience of writing it down.

Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

Well tom, I guess that in music, as in speech, it is important to be taught the meanings of words as well as how to spell them.

The myth I like to dispel is that Reading and improvisation are somehow mutually exclusive.

If they are both experienced and taught together then that is when the most complete musicians are made.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM

Furthermore, I've many's the time seen people wanting to join sesshes but couldn't because they could only play anything from dots

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:23 AM

Lox...Perhaps I could have been more clear. It was a beginner guitar class and it was definately C/G (slash chord) in guitar nomenclature a C chord with a G in the bass and was notated as 332010 in the tab and as such in the standard notation. The student was adamant that what he saw wasn't what the teacher described, so he was quite confused. It looks to both of us that his teacher isn't a guitarist, and not much of a musician, teaching out of his subject area.

I'm well aware of the other things you describe. Let's get back to B#.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM

Lox - this is from the OP: "heard a guy tell someone that last night. "I've studied guitar for three years and my instructor says there's no such thing as a B-sharp. It's a C." So either the teacher is an idiot who shouldn't be in that job or the guy misunderstood him. "

josepp is reporting hearsay. We have no idea what the teacher actually said, or why. It may have been wrong to suggest this, or the teacher may have merely been trying to simplify things to show where to place a finger on the fretboard, or - as stated, the pupil may have merely misunderstood, or josepp may have misunderstood. We don't know.

It is josepp's statements in subsequent posts, which appear to suggest that being able to read music and understand the more complex conventions of written music theory is necessary, (and failure to do so verging on cultural criminality), that have brought out so many opposite views.

Telling someone there is no such thing as B sharp is not a crime - because they can find out for themselves later on, IF they need to, when and why we decide to use this name for that note in certain, fairly rare, cases.

It's a concept that does not really crop up at all in trad folk and very seldom in contemp folk (joespp's example song "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" is of course VERY firmly in the latter category ;-). A rock guitarist who does not know about B sharp is not going to be very handicapped - it just doesn't occur in rock music conventions (which, actually, tend to be even more aural/show-and-tell than folk music conventions, as it happens).

Trying to explain too early, to someone who may be struggling with the terminology, and who may never need to know anyway is not necessarily good teaching. Could be very bad teaching, actually.

Mozart almost certainly learned to play by ear first. I could pick out a tune with chords on the piano at the age of two and started on the violin (1/8th sise, got for the family by Clara Schumann) at the age of three. Both my sisters and both my children could, like me, also read simple words at two (my daughter could recite the alphabet backwards at 2) - but we ALL mastered speaking before reading. Everyone always does.

I did not say people should not try to read music, or did I? No, I see I said that it was an advantage, and so it is. I did say, however, it was not always necessary, or possible, and could even be a hindrance if taught too early and/or too rigidly.

"The idea that being able to read means you cant' speak is not true"

I did not say that either. I would have been even stupider than usual if I had.

"or in musical terms, play without dots."

Ah - but there I beg to differ. I have met hundreds of people who have been musically damaged by being taught book-music without ear/heart-music. I actually believe it verges on abuse when inflicted on small children.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

"Nevertheless, I don't feel deprived nor advantaged by the knowledge of the existance of this key/ note."

Fine, maybe you don't need it.

As for the advantage aspect, if i gave you a screwdriver and told you it was useful, but you had never seen a screw, much less know what it does, you might think it useless.

If you were building something though that a nail could not accomplish, you might suddenly discover how useful screws are and then you might be inspired to discover the world of cross heads, flatheds, allen keys etc.

Seek and ye shall find.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

Lox,

Thanks for your input.

Nevertheless, I don't feel deprived nor advantaged by the knowledge of the existance of this key/ note.

I've played tunes, songs on a variety of instruments for many years, either solo or with others in sessions & for a big part of the time only needed to know the key of the melody, but without consciously knowing each individual note being played

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

we have a few new fiddlers at our club. Despite reading the dots, it appears that for them, neither B sharp nor C exist as they always seem to end up somewhere between the two.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:01 AM

"I'm not saying that B# doesn't exist or that it's worthless. More the fact that arguing semantics over a enharmonic equivalent is a bit of a waste of time."

It is narrowmindledly only that in modern 12 note equal temperament, which JiK will soon give the exact correct name of, I'm sure ... ;-) If you REALLY know your Music Theory History (Internationally), that statement reveals a severe lack of breadth of knowledge and experience.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

"But in this thread it is more important to acknowledge that pretending to know there isn't such a thing, and collecting cash for it, is fraudulent.

This could have been agreed a long time ago, but Josepp has been subjected to ridicule for bringing it up.

In this case the mob have incorrectly identified the troll, and might have done bettter to listen and think. "



Actually, you have that back to front. Being a good hearted person with apparently little experience of those like him, you take his post at face value as a true and valid account.

In the context of his other rantings here (in which he often claims to be an expert, better than the rest of us), he has often proved himself to be but an ignorant loud mouth troll.

And you are taking his account at face value, which many posters have also seen thru.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Nearly

one more go ...



Fig 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                   #0
-------------------------------------------------#0-------------------
                                                    #0
-----------------------------------#0---------------------------------
                                  #0
---------------------#0-----------------------------------------------
                      #0
       #-0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#



fig 2

#
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#   
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#                                                                   0
#------------------------------------------------0-------------------
#                                                 0
-----------------------------------0---------------------------------
                                  0
---------------------0-----------------------------------------------
                      0
       -0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#


Here goes ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:56 AM

On the subject of playing from memory, I try to play from memory as much as possible. It can give you a whole lot of freedom that you don't expect.