Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms

Subject: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 06:58 AM

Has anyone any relevant info - songs, stories, etc, on The Topic of Naval Battles (or Land battles) with cannon fire and subsequent storms?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:31 AM

Trafalgar was followed by a bad storm.
All the prizes were lost.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: doc.tom
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM

It was a storm that broke up the Spanish Armada

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

What is your interest? Are you thinking that cannon fire and storms might be related or is there some other point?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 10:39 AM

A 'divine wind" broke up one of the major attempts by the Chinese to invade Japan.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM

A storm blew John Paul Jones's ships out of the forth before he could bombard Leith and Edinburgh.

No cannons involved, but the most historically important event like this was the wreck of the Chinese/Mongol invasion fleet that tried to conquer Japan in 1274.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM

I remember as a kid being told that 'the smoke and noise caused the subsequent storm', an idea also alluded to in films. Obviously an 'óld wives tale', but it's a good topic to ask about here.

Just wanted to tap into the vast knowledge and experience here - also any relevant songs that mention such events.

I can see a possible link between lots of black powder smoke and 'cloud seeding'...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM

There's also "The Bold Benjamin" which if you go back to the broadside version as reprinted in John Ashton's REAL SAILOR-SONGS explains that it was a storm that devastated this poor ship, not a battle:

We set sail five hundred men,
Oh, me boys, ohh!
We set sail five hundred men-o!
We set sail five hundred men,
And we've come back but fifty-one,
They was lost on Bold Benjamin, oh!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM

None of the storms mentioned were little local affairs that could have been affected by human action. The storm that drove back the Mongols was a full-sized typhoon and the one that got the Armada hit everything from the Bay of Biscay to the Shetlands.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:47 PM

And also the first had nothing to do with black powder, I think.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 10:04 PM

I also wonder if ships that had taken serious cannon ball damage would be all that seaworthy if a storm came up before proper repairs had been undertaken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: kendall
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM

All the ones I know about have been mentioned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: J-boy
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:52 AM

I believe the Battle of Jutland was prematurely ended on account of weather. But I may be mistaken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:06 AM

So it looks like non-scientific urban myth, then?

Any more relevant songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM

I don't know how to keep this in a musical vein, but...
Patrick O'Brian, who was known for meticulous research, mentioned in several places that this was a commonly held belief in the Royal Navy in the sail age.
There is also a similar tradition among land-based soldiery of the 19th century (American Civil War in particular). The history seems to give some support to it, oddly enough.
I have wondered before, and will continue to wonder until someone publishes some research, if it has to do with the time it took to move forces into position for a major setpiece battle (naval or land) and the cyclical nature of storms. The idea is that you are tied down by bad weather, you begin to move when conditions clear, and there is - on average - just enough time to maneuver and fight a battle before the next round of bad weather sets in.
Just a thought.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

Jutland did not end in a storm.

It was believed that the massive barrages of WW1 increased the amount of rain.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM

No, Jutland ended in a not-so-unusual natural phenomenon called night, and a series of confused night actions as the German Fleet escaped back to port.

In naval battles in the Age of Sail that occurred in light winds, there were reports that the gunfire caused the winds to die (as a result of localised high pressure?).

Trafalgar: A French/Spanish counterattack caused Collingwood to remove prize-crews from his prizes. The subsequent storm destroyed most of these but the French Swiftsure, the Spanish Bahama, San Ildefonso, and San Juan Nepomuceno were taken to Britain.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM

Thanks highlandman at work, I knew it wasn't just me who had heard this 'urban myth'.

"Jutland ended in a not-so-unusual natural phenomenon called night, and a series of confused night actions as the German Fleet escaped back to port."

In the days before Radar and Satellites, that sort of thing happened a lot, except for one incident alleged in the Bible. :-)