BS: Libertarianism...NOT!

Subject: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM

Many Republicans, most notably those who call themselves the "Tea Party" claim to be Libertarians. I assert that, while the party platform may be a pure philosophy, it is not only impractical as a social structure, it is not even what most people in poll after reliable poll say they really want. Furthermore, these people who refer to themselves as "Libertarians" don't even know what the term actually means. Here is the link to the party platform.

http://www.lp.org/platform

I am not going to run down the whole platform and how the current self-proclaimed Libertarians miss the boat. But here are a few highlights.

The Libertarian platform says that government should not be in the business of regulating people's sex lives. The Tea Partyists proclaim a whole menu of such regulations.

The Libertarian platform says that government should not be in people's private activities such as those activities do not cause injury to or fraud upon anyone else. Tea Partyists believe that private behavior including consumption of substances is a public issue.

The Libertarian platform suggests that the Party is not environmentally oriented. But to protect people from harm, as they indicate elsewhere in their platform, it is necessary to also regulate activity of individuals or companies so that they do not cause environmental harm to others. Tea Partyists suggest that all environmental regulations are wrong.

The Libertarian platform opposes all subsidies. The Tea Partyists endorse, among other subsidies, those to oil and gas companies.

The Libertarian platform does not explicitly say but does suggest that it opposes officially sanctioned religion. The Tea Partyists are unabashedly Christian, and they expect everyone else to be, as well.

Now, have at it. Please, facts, reason, and no ad hominem comments.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 07:15 PM

I was disappointed with the Tea Party, because when it started, I thought it was a form of populist libertarianism, or libertarian populism. But the super-conservatives moved in and took over almost immediately.

One quibble:

The Libertarian platform does not explicitly say but does suggest that it opposes officially sanctioned religion.

That's more or less true. But someone reading too fast might think you said that Libertarians oppose religion per se, which is of course not so. They merely feel that it is a personal matter, or one for groups of coreligionists joining of their own free will.

I read somewhere, a few days ago:

"A religion is like a penis.
It's fine that you have one.
It's fine that you get pleasure from it.
It's fine that you're proud of it.
But don't take it out and wave it around in public.
And don't EVER try to ram it down my or my childrens' throats."

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

Soul, I believe your opening premise to be incorrect. Libertarianism is Libertarianism, and Republicanism is Republicanism. It is true that both Libertarians and Republicans are on the Conservative spectrum, but most often they have run for office under separate banners, frequently diluting the Conservative vote. Occasionally Libertarians run as Republicans, feeling they have a better chance at election, but most generally they're wrong. Precious few Libertarians get elected except in local elections.

I think the fact that some Tea Party folk ran as Republicans, rather than as Libertarian (as they may claim to be) supports my analysis. It remains to be seen if the Tea Party wing (if you want to call it that) can be assimilated, over the long run, into mainstream Republicanism.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 08:00 PM

Isn't Libertarianism a form of socialism?

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: pdq
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 08:07 PM

"Isn't Libertarianism a form of socialism?"

No, it is almost the polar opposite of Socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 08:13 PM

Don't kid yourselves..it's the 'Age of Sophistry'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: curmudgeon
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 08:24 PM

Socialism is an economic system; libertarianism is a socio-political philosophy - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: J-boy
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 12:42 AM

True Libertarians have more in common with Anarchists than with Republicans and those "tea-party" nitwits.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM

Any chance of libertinism in stead?

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM

It remains to be seen if the Tea Party ... can be assimilated, over the long run, into mainstream Republicanism.**

Or vice versa.

**By which you mean to say the Republican Party. Republicanism is quite something else altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM

Rather, my poem "Global Regulationism" - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#105

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:17 PM

Libertarians are not polar opposites to Socialists. I'm not sure what they are polar opposites to, though...

My father once explained to me that communism was the exploitation of man by man, and socialism was the reverse.

Of course, he was a socialist, but he had a sense of humor!

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:12 PM

It may be unfair to judge an entire political group by one person, but the first I heard of this group was by a self proclaimed Libertarian I met a decade ago. This woman had left her family (young children) to be raised by hubbie and grandma b/c she was bored by living in Missouri (names and states have been changed lol)
and wanted to try a fun life in the big apple. She hired me for several jobs, but claimed since it was just after 9-11 and the economy had her strapped, she could only pay me in goods and future promises,shortly before she took off for France.

And of course her basic philosophical premise was that the government shouldn't pay for anyone or take care of anyone-though I never asked the selfish narcissistic b***h who she thought was taking care of her grade school kids and 85 year old unwitting caretaker grandma.

A Pox on the entire tribe jmho.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: GUEST,Peadar (formerly) of Portsmouth
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM

I'm with Lefty

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:59 PM

Until these people haters in the USA adopted the term a few years, "I'm a libertarian" has generally been a way of saying you were an anarchist which was a bit less likely to frighten people off. On a left/right axis in the same place as Socialist, but at the other end of the authoritarian/libertarian axis from some Socialist.

Why do people persist in thinking all political views can be accommodated on a one dimensional left/right chart?

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:36 PM

Take it up with Ayn Rand, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

"Why do people persist in thinking all political views can be accommodated on a one dimensional left/right chart?"

Indeed. I would think that libertarian is in no way authoritarian. If anything it is anti-authoritarian, someone indicated it borders on anarchy, and perhaps in its ultimate form it does.

Authoritarianism might be exemplified on a continuum from say Russian Communism (pre-Glasnost) to Fascism.

The reason, my opinion, people think one of left and right "on a one dimensional left/right chart" is that most lefties agree to a great extent on the same things, and the same basic way to achieve their ends. It seems to me the righties generally react in the same for their premises. However, in the past couple or three years the right has two major factions...normative conservatism and the so-called Tea Party. There is, in this respect, at this time, a lot less orthodoxy on the right than on the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:06 PM

There is, in this respect, at this time, a lot less orthodoxy on the right than on the left

In addition, there's a lot more bullshit manufactured out of whole cloth, ignorance, lies and stupidity on the right than on the left.

But it doesn't seem to trouble them.

Subject: RE: BS: Libertarianism...NOT!
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 11:26 PM

I've had no respect for Libertarians since the Alaska party nominated for Governor someone who'd left the State!