Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?

Subject: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM

A current thread made me wonder why it is that people find it much easier to champion and speak well of people when they are relatively unknown. Once they take the terrible step into being more widely liked they are suddenly 'grim' or 'rubbish' or 'money grabbing' or 'untrue to their roots' or 'fat' or sexually abnormal or whatever.

The current butt of this seems to be the Unthanks. A while ago the popular one to knock was Kate Rusby and how all her songs sound the same or some other gripe; or Show of Hands not being any good; or Bellowhead doing something wrong.

I listened to the song on the BBC mentioned on the latest thread and personally can't see why it raises so many hackles. My wife came in while I was listening to it and enjoyed it. It's decently sung, I like string quartet backing and the guitarist and keyboards were tasteful. I don't own any Unthanks music and have only really listened to a few things on YouTube etc when people have taken a pop at them here in the past (I liked Sexy Sadie by the way, I thought it was fun)

Is it because they are on the TV and somehow that makes you an instant target? Is the other side of the 'fame' culture that we live in a constant need to pillory and replace decent performers with whatever the next new thing is - until their time comes to be flushed down the same tube. Jedward I'm sure are fantastically talented and will no doubt make a progressive fusion album one day with Pat Metheny, Pavarotti and Stockhausen which will show what they are really all about and to finally silence any critics there may be out there...

There was a programme about Elton John and Bernie Taupin's early days on BBC4 the other day. Early promise and talent; music college and practice; dedication and singleminded pursuit of a goal in the face of adversity from school and parets etc; obscurity; playing in bands and 'paying dues'; selling out and playing the 'wrong music'; taking chances; working in Denmark St and trying to churn out 'hits'; travelling endlessly; ignored first album; nearly canned until going to the US etc etc. I bet there are many who reckon it was probably pretty easy for Elton because.... Most of the things in the first paragraph (and many more) have been applied to him since. But I'd gues he worked enormously hard at what he did - it doesn't fall on a plate.

It's sad that not everyone with talent makes it. It may be seen to be unfair that some people with less (subjectively perceived) talent than others make the most of it and some with more make the least of it (perhaps perspiration rather than inspiration and all that apply). In most biographies of people who have 'made it' there are a good number of surprises - where people go "well I never knew they sang on cruise ships and workin men's clubs for 10 years before I saw them on the telly" - and things that people have given up or chosen to take chances with.

So my question is - why do people so begrudge people the success that in most spheres they have worked so very very hard to achieve?

And secondly - why does it allow so many people (not specifically talking Mudcat here so let's not have an argument on that level) who have not an iota of the talent to somehow feel that the artist has so let them down and owes them so much?

It doesn't seem to be, as Les said in another thread, whether you like them or not; it seems more to be 'what can I say bad about these people' just because they are there.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Zen
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM

Agreed. It seems many here would rather slate or begrudge people rather than staying silent if they don't care for them.

Personally, I'd rather offer praise for those people who do move me in some way.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:14 AM

If a musician gets popular then we don't get to feel special and unique anymore. In other words - how good could they be if "those" people like them too?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:20 AM

So the aim of an artist is to be as unpopular as possible?

Should I only be listening to people that noone else likes?

Does that mean I'm doing tremendously well because so few people appreciate my stupendous talent and I'd only spoil it if more people liked what I did?

Sorry I have removed my tongue from my cheek now.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:21 AM

I think they feel it's a betrayal of Sacred Folk Purity to be in any way favoured by the mainstream, especially as what The Unthanks do isn't exactly mainstream anyway, and yet has a wide appeal. Maybe that's another reason - I applaud anyone who might cover King Crimson and Robert Wyatt with the same exquisite attention to musical detail as Kipling / Bellamy (their cover of A Tree Song on Oak, Ash, Thorn is a definitive masterpiece) or traditional Northumbrian songs or whatever else they do. As I said on the other thread, they are an autonomous musical unit and can do as they please, which they do quite fearlessly.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:26 AM

Zen says

"Personally, I'd rather offer praise for those people who do move me in some way."

OK, then. You should all check out this woman if you haven't heard her already. I really enjoy her interpretations of Northumbrian songs.

http://www.focsle.org.uk/SCoFF/carolyn/

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

JEALOUSY ?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Zen
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

Yes Johnny J... I have heard her before and, yes, she is a fine singer.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM

Could be jealousy. I think it's something more than though and something I see in many walks of life more and more. Perhaps it's the Warhol thing of everyone and their 15 minutes of fame - perhaps famous people are getting in the way?

Johnny - she's a very fine singer last heard her in Whitby. Saw her with the Tabbush sisters some years ago and they are mighty fine too.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM

Among the younger performers, I really like this lass

http://www.bellahardy.com/

and also

http://www.myspace.com/ruthnotman1

and

http://www.kerrfagan.com/

to name but a few.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM

There was a programme about Elton John and Bernie Taupin's early days on BBC4 the other day. Early promise and talent; music college and practice; dedication and singleminded pursuit of a goal in the face of adversity from school and parets etc; obscurity; playing in bands and 'paying dues'; selling out and playing the 'wrong music'; taking chances; working in Denmark St and trying to churn out 'hits'; travelling endlessly; ignored first album; nearly canned until going to the US etc etc.

Oh spare us. That is COMPLETE bollocks. The guy got himself into the limelight straight after leaving college - I couldn't miss it even though I was in New Zealand at the time and detested the pop industry as much then as I do now. And his PR machine has made sure he's never been out of the public eye since. He's the archetypal pop product.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Unthanks: Lovely girls, as Father Ted once said (or was it Jack?) Liked them better as RU and the Winterset but perfectly bonny lasses singing songs old and new.

Kate Rusby: One doesn't hear Barnsley sung often enough to complain about it. Eats her crusts too. What's not to like?

Bellowhead: Anyone who puts a big band on the road in these straightened times is to be congratulated. Excellent musicians and a very good fun evening.

Show of Hands: Feels like a lecture. If I wanted a lecture I'd go to a university.

Jackie Oates: Lovely voice.

Eliza Carthy: Top bird, great voice, fine player, impeccable provenance.

Boden and Spiers: Marvellous. Done more for the tradition than most under 70s.

Did I miss anyone with a modicum of success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM

Seth Lakeman?

I prefer his brothers though. They're not as famous.
:-)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

I thought the same thing Nick.
As members of the Folk World we should applaud any member being on radio, or TV and support them.
I have not seen the programme, but I intend to, The two sisters come over as lovely friendly girls and talented.
Good luck to all they achieve and the same goes for all of you.
Al

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:30 AM

I do wish people could understand that, it in the end, it all boils down to personal taste - one man's meat being another man's poison, etc.

If you state that you don't like Richard Thompson (say) - all that says is that you don't happen to like Richard Thompson. As it happens, I admire RT greatly - but that merely tells you my taste. In between the two extremes lie a whole spectrum of opinions.

This doesn't mean that we have to suspend our critical faculty but, if you're going to be critical of a performance - in the right place and at the right time - then give a reasoned and balanced critique which - by the way - "grim" is not.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:38 AM

If you dont like someone , you dont HAVE to go to their gigs or buy their product ! Equally , you should NOT Slag someone off without REALLY good cause !

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM

"if you're going to be critical of a performance - in the right place and at the right time - then give a reasoned and balanced critique "

Point taken.
However, I shall re-iterate that this one word was used in relation to the *performance only* and not intended to be a personal attack on the girls themselves. Certainly, I wouldn't dream of using any of the other descriptions suggested by the OP which would be totally unacceptable under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

I'm with Will here....it's one thing to "not like" an artiste or band... that is purely personal taste.

But if a band or artise who you like (or even one that you don't like!) turns in what you consider to be a below-par performance in an environment where they have relatively large "exposure" then you should be prepared to put up a reasoned critique highlighting what you consider to have been "wrong" with the performance, rather than just slagging it off with a single word.

For example, the first time I heard "Fleet Foxes" (who've recently been "discovered" by Mudcat!) was about 2 1/2 years ago on Jools Holland and their performance was dire. The reason it was dire was that they were singing in a *completely different key* to the one they were playing their instruments in. It sounded horrible, and they didn't pick it up until halfway through the song, when their voices all shifted into the right key for the instruments over the course of 1 1/2 bars!

There was a YouTube clip of it for a while, but it seems to have disappeared now.

THAT was an OBJECTIVELY dire performance, whether you like "Fleet Foxes" or not. Anyone coming across them for the first time wouldn't have had a good impression at all.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:01 AM

Maybe, if you have only heard someone the one time your views are from that performance only, and maybe that particular performance was under par?

I have only ever seen Martin Carthy once at Gainsborough Festival "Trinity Arts Centre". All he seemed to do is tune his guitar, once tuned he played and sang as if to be unhappy "with the guitar and performance".

In the foyer after the performance I did hear people say it was rubbish. I did hear that afterwards Martin did in fact realise this himself and offered to do the performance free of charge, he told the organisers that the guitar was brand new and would not stay in tune even for one song. I bet Martin can remember that day.

So personally I came away disappointed because I had heard how fantastic he was and I was expecting something exceptional. I could actually say that Martin Carthy is rubbish in my opinion from his performance on that day. However, knowing the consequences I suppose I should make the effort to see him again.

I'm sure professional musicians can rise above such comments, people should also be allowed to view their opinions if they have paid good money to see them but weren't happy with their performance. It is their view that differs to yours. So be it!

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

No argument with that from me, Pulseroom.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM

I have seen my heros on bad days and seen acts for the first time I thought bad then heard something I liked on the radio and yep, it was them.

Taste is a fickle concept, abstract to say the least.

I recall a thread when I first found Mudcat a few years ago where somebody was lamenting that folk in The UK will die out with the baby boomers. Nonsense, I said. What about Eliza Carthy, Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby, Spiers & Boden etc etc etc. "Ah, the young Turks. Not too sure they made a difference." Came the sad answer from a rather sad person.

It seems that success in any arts venture here in The UK is based on the media building you up in the way they wish in order to knock you down again, as they wish. Funny that artistic success is there to sell newspapers and nothing else, strange world.

What I find appalling is people perpetuating this hate of anybody who is doing alright, despite them not being editors, TV producers or newspaper barons. Why? A bit like the prat who told me I shouldn't sing in folk clubs because my car looks too posh. Folk clubs are there to whinge about being poor or some other such rubbish.

The only good bit is, there is no such thing as bad publicity. And when you need money from performing to pay the bills, any exposure can turn into ticket or album sales. Ask the late Michael Jackson for details.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Abdul out of the UK
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM

There is a British thing though about resenting success. Not just in the folky world o course but most things. They don't have that culture anywhere else that I'm aware of. The papers thrive on it.
Al

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 12:07 PM

>>Oh spare us. That is COMPLETE bollocks. The guy got himself into the limelight straight after leaving college - I couldn't miss it even though I was in New Zealand at the time and detested the pop industry as much then as I do now. And his PR machine has made sure he's never been out of the public eye since. He's the archetypal pop product.

Interesting. I first heard of Elton John in Kildonan, Arran in an old boat shed where the son of the hotelier had a little recording studio thing. It would be summer 1970 just after release of second album. Never heard of him before so he PR machine must have been slow for me (at 16 presumablly I was part of the target audience).

By then, I was quite into acoustic and electric blues, folk music, west coast music, rock, classics, had been through the Beatles, done the Stones in the Park, seen Pink Floyd, been to see Judy Collins and all sorts of stuff - ie quite eclectic - but bizarrely the Elton John PR machine had missed me while the Velvet Underground and Roy Harper had managed to find me.

Jack - you may be talking bollocks from the wrong year unless New Zealand was that far ahead - I know it's alays the first at New Year.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:16 PM

I pretty much agree with glueman. I'm not a great fan of the breathy little girl singing style, but lots of people are.

Johnny J - I think Carolyn Robson is a wonderful singer too, with impeccable folk credentials for singing Northumbrian songs (IIRC she grew up in Hexham). She also formerly worked for EFDSS...and of course she's one third of Craig, Morgan, Robson, as well as the mother of the Tabbush sisters!   

Kitty

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM

I do not know about years, but Reg certainly cut his teeth playing with the likes of Long John Baldry, etc.
Speaking as an ex-pat Brit living in Canada;
I personally do not get the Unthanks, I heard them Live as RU and winterset at Bromyard and really wondered why these girls who could mostly not sing in tune, with difficult to understand diction were there at all. I listened to them via You tube on the Bellowhead(GREAT group) Christmas Thingy and was grateful for the fast forward.
Having listened to the first link I do not think that they have improved much, though their pitching is a little better. Living in another Country, I certainly do not understand all the hype and nominations for different awards they recieve. To me at the expense of far better performers who have been mentioned above, who I would really like to hear more of.
My 2$ that's inflation for you, JohnB.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

I forgot to say I thought they came across a lot better in the BBC programme about clogging which they did.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: CupOfTea
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

There is a British thing though about resenting success

Abdul, I disagree - or perhaps it's an American-ingrained-from-our-colonial-past thing, but I hear folks make the same kind of begrudging commentary on what's popular in the folk world as viewed here. I may be guilty of some of it m'self, yet what I tend to grump about is the success of performers who are NOT to my taste over what I perceive as more worthy performers.

In my case, it's a taste and critique version of sour grapes. It's frustration. "Cute thing who looks good in miniskirt" playing her songs getting more airplay than "Middle aged woman who has substance, a great repertoire, and really great guitar chops" irks me. When I complain it can sound like I'm just slagging off on the young thing. There's only so much airtime/audience/dollars to spend on tickets to go around & every time I have to hear some breathy voice girlchild I'm aware I'm not hearing Odetta or Deb Cowan or Cindy Mangsen, or a plethora of performers I respect. Does that perhaps answer some of the "why" in begrudging success?

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 02:42 PM

I'm not entirely sure your premise is true, Nick. Not saying you are wrong but my belief is that anyone in the limelight will receive a healthy dollop of criticism. Now, had the Unthanks etc. stayed in the relatively obscure world of folk not many people would have heard of them and therefore it would stand to reason that the number of critics would be lower. Once you start to hit the big time then your audience is far wider and the number of critics grows proportionately.

Take the Unthanks as an example - I can't say that I paricularly like them. Nothing wrong with their music, just not my cup of tea. Had they have stuck to the folk clubs of the North East I may never had heard of them so would never had said I don't particularly like them. I am, I believe, pretty fair and will not criticise any artist any more than that. But for every one of me there are 10 who, rather than say they do not like it, will say it is crap.

Nothing, therefore, to do with jelously or any such. Simply the fact that the higher your profile goes, the more people will take a pot shot. And take no notice whatsoever of anyome saying it is an English trait. Us English are naturaly more critical because our standards are far higher than those in the colonies... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

I admire those who sell their souls to the publicity machine. That takes some bollocks, or whatever the female equivalent is.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM

"sell their souls" ?

Steve I'm genuinely shocked by your attitude mate.

That's not selling your soul, that's doing everything you can to develop and polish your birth talent to make the best music you possibly can that you can be proud of and that (some) other people will love. In other words what every artist (and collector or interpreter) from any genre has always done.

Selling your soul is compromising your beliefs and values for the sake of financial gain. I can assure you Rachel and Becky are doing nothing of the sort. They have taken something they love doing (and have grown extremely good at), which is singing dark and interesting songs, simply and effectively - using deliberate understatement (both for effect and because it suits their voices) employing fully traditionally-informed vocal styling, and then, with Adrian's help, achieving a real frisson by setting that pale watercolour into an expansive but still understated frame of moulded gold - like a watercolour by Turner.

People like them because they think it's a simply brilliant thing to do, and to many it's starkly beautiful. Not everyone agrees - and that's fine too.

Is it anything to do with folk? Who cares? Do they expect everyone to like it? Certainly not. Is it selling out? Well if it is then so is everything you or I have ever done, mate.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

Agreed, Tom. As I said, not my cup of tea but I can certainly appreciate their talent. If, however, they were to start doing Spice Girl covers and getting their kit off for 'Hello' magazine it would be a different bucket of whelks! They would still not be to everyone's tastes and 'sell out' would then be appropriate. As it happens I find it unlikely. Unless they fancy coming round for a photo shoot... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM

I've always sensed a huge sense of Begrudginess in the English folk world to those who become successful....*unless* they are part of the Folk Family Mafia, in which case it's considered perfectly perfect for them to appear on any programme whatsoever. Hmmmmm.....

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

I think it is a generational thing.   The "folk revival" crowd developed their taste in music and created their own styles when older generations were siding up to pop music, jazz and other more commercially accessible forms.    Now that the folk revival crowd are entering their latter years, they seem to have the same sort of resentment for younger generations who are embracing music in their own style.    Perhaps it is a jealousy of realizing that their own rebellious youth is a distant memory and by looking down their nose at younger styles, they somehow recapture their own youthful arrogance.   Too bad it is at the expense of hearing some unique and exciting music. The cowebs are shaking off revealing a brillance once again. Perhaps if it is put down it will go away and they can embrace their memories again.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:12 AM

I find the term "selling ones soul" slightly laughable when referring to UK folkies! Name me one UK artist who is earning more than the minimum wage? If, indeed all these people are selling their souls, they're not getting a very good price for them, are they!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:34 AM

I stood at the crossroads, many many years ago, and waited eagerly - guitar in hand - for the Devil to bring me fame and fortune in exchange for my immortal soul.

I got knocked down by a no. 32 bus.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:13 AM

Xlnt Will! As for us old gits resenting young people - my own feeling is nothing less than delight that so many talented, hard working, imaginative, creative young people are doing so many exciting things to old songs.

If people don't like somebody or other go and find somebody they do like and tell us so we can all enjoy more old songs and tunes.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:30 AM

Me too Will. One minute Pete Waterman was whispering in my ear. The next......

It baffles me utterly when this sort of thing happens.

First, why should seeking to make a living in the folk music arena be seen by anyone as a sell out? Composers and songwriters through the ages have always borrowed from and added to the 'working class / un-educated' (or whatever definition you prefer) traditional canon. The Unthanks don't exclusively sing trad material, and even if they did it would not be an issue. No crime there.

And there have always been professional and semi-professional musicians in every genre at every level in every town and village in the world. Always. No crime there either.

All of us who have tried to make a go of it have done so because if you can hit on a workable formula for both your music and your lifestyle, which is financially viable, it's a wonderful way to live. Yes you need to be sure it's worth the risk when you abandon the day job - but you base that decision on feedback from your reviewers, audiences, mentors - and sales. If it doesn't work you slip back from view (as I did). But if it does you rise gently under the Peter Principle - and if you're lucky and good enough you make it to Later. No crime there.

The producers of Later have thousands of brilliant acts to choose from. There is no payola or underhand exchange here. They book acts from a 'folk' background because they are good, because they are popular, and because they know they will work well on the programme. No crime there.

No-one who has ever taken as little as a pint for singing a song should accuse anyone of selling out. (Hell, if they wanted to and enjoyed singing Spice Girl covers and could get bookings for doing so that wouldn't be selling out either).

All successful musicians have found themselves at various points in their careers going down what turns out to be a dead end. Wrong band, wrong material, wrong approach, bad timing - many a slip is inevitable. The good ones pick themselves up, learn from the experience and try again with a slightly different approach. The Unthanks have done exactly this, and they've found a winning formula. And it's not a cheap one either. Singing unaccompanied and keeping all the fee for themselves would buy them a lot more 'for their souls.'

They sounded great the other night - as they usually do. I'll stick with my watercolour in a gilt frame analogy: Accentuating the deliberate simplicity of the singing with the sparse brightness of the accompaniment (try listening again with the Turner image in mind - it might make more sense then) works a treat. People coming from a Jacques Brel (in fact a lot of French popular music), or an Elvis Costello-ish background - (and LOT of people do), get it at once - hence their success.

They fitted perfectly into the show - the whole point of which is juxtaposition, contrast and discovery.

To quote Andy Kershaw quoting John Walters (his and Peel's - and Ralph's - producer). "Our job is not to give people what they want. It's to give people what they din't KNOW they wanted." I think Jool's team would subscribe to that too.

A lot of people already knew they wanted the Unthanks. But now a LOT more people do.

No crime there either.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:34 AM

Well said Tom, all good stuff.

Here's a group I and many others much enyoyed at last years Shrewsbury Festival:

Calan

If you like 'em tell others. If you don't - tell us who you do like or better still go to a folk club or session and sing a song or play a tune.

Cheers
L in C#

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:45 AM

Tom
Thanks for the mention, and you are absolutely right. I worked with Alison Howe (Prod "Later") at Radio 1. A very clear thinking person, with great ideas, and whenever I watch Jools' show, I'm just grateful that it's there. I've also been lucky enough to work on JH's radio show recorded at Helicon Mountain. Guest's included (to name two) Kirsty MacColl and George Melly!   And lots of others.
Out of interest, just looking at my hard drive, here is a partial list of people I've recorded, (All of which I would regard as folk singers!)
Afro Celts, Altan, Ann Peebles, Beth Orton, Bill Jones, Blind Boys of Alabama, 2 Duos Quartet, Chris Wood, CBS, Cunningham/McCusker, Del McCrory, Dembo Konte, Kausu Kuyate, Dick Dale, Dick Gaughan, Hansome Family, Hayes and Cahill, Ivor Cutler, .....etc. and I'm only halfway through the alphabet!
The list is not there for boasting purposes, It's just to say that, the BBC has always provided a broad range of music. Particularly over the last 15 years or so.
So, to criticise one bands performance on one TV show, just because "I don't like it, so it must be crap" is, not only insulting to the artists concerned, but to the entire production team as well.
Go on then....You do it!
PS. I'll just add, Warren Zevon, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, LWIII, Kelly Joe Phelps, Kevin Coyne, Mahotella Queens, Welch/Rawlins, Wreckless Eric, Rokia Traore, Robin Hitchcock, Martin Simpson, Taj Mahal/Toumani Djiabate.....(Thats enough names Ed!)
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM

Quite a "mixed bag" there but I actually like most of these named you've mentioned.

I also like Jacques Brel too and I've always been a great Elvis Costello fan. So, there!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM

Heaping excessive praise on artists one happens to like – or excessive condemnation on those one happens to dislike – is just self-congratulation by indirect means. The script goes like this:

"How perceptive I must be to like a performer that few others appreciate, and many have never heard of. How high my critical standards must be if I can detect the intrinsic shallowness of somebody who is idolised by millions."

Of course, the script changes abruptly whenever artists who were once the focus of an underground cult suddenly achieve mass popularity. Now it goes like this:

"Oh yes, I liked them back in the early days, but I'm disgusted by the glossy trash they churn out now."

Most of us used to play this game with our schoolfellows – it's probably a necessary part of the growing up process. But unfortunately, some people find it hard to let go.

Lazy people who want to appear culturally sophisticated can use it to avoid the effort of looking, listening and thinking.   Unimaginative journalists can fall back on it to fill their quota of column inches or airtime minutes. And unsuccessful performers (pro or amateur) can indulge in it to console themselves.

As Dorothy Parker once said about another activity, it's a way of killing time for those who prefer it dead. This particular game never gets you anywhere worth going.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

Ok, How many people do you know that don't like Leonard Cohen? 90% of my friends will tell you he's crap. Well! I love listening to him, I could listen to him all day. I actually think he's brilliant. I have purchased every album he's made.

Here's a list of musicians that have used "Bird on a Wire" one of Leonards songs on their albums:

Joe Cocker on Joe Cocker! (1969) and the live album Mad Dogs & Englishmen (1970)
Dave Van Ronk on Van Ronk (1971)
Tim Hardin on the album Bird on a Wire (1971)
Pearls Before Swine on the album Beautiful Lies You Could Live In (1971)
Rita Coolidge on the album The Lady's Not for Sale (1972)
Fairport Convention on the album Heyday: the BBC Radio Sessions, 1968–1969 (1987)
Jennifer Warnes on the tribute album Famous Blue Raincoat (1987)
Tom Cochrane and Red Rider on The Symphony Sessions (1989)
The Neville Brothers on the album Brother's Keeper (1990), also included in the movie by the same name
The Lilac Time on the tribute album I'm Your Fan (1991)
The Bobs on the album Cover the Songs of … (1994), in a skate-punk style
Johnny Cash on the album American Recordings (1994), and also live with orchestra (released on the 2003 compilation Unearthed)
Willie Nelson on the tribute album Tower of Song (1995)
Stina Nordenstam on the album People Are Strange (1998)
k.d. lang on the album Hymns of the 49th Parallel (2004)
autorickshaw on the album So the Journey Goes (2007)
Perla Batalla on the album Bird on the Wire: the Songs of Leonard Cohen (2005)
Eva Dahlgren on the tribute album Cohen – the Scandinavian Report (2009)
Joe Bonamassa on the album Black Rock (2010)
Kiko Veneno on the album Dice la Gente (2010), adapted to spanish
Katey Segal on the television program Sons of Anarchy in Season 3 Episode 4 (2011)

So..... is he crap or is he brilliant? Or am I just missing the point?

I can just see Leonard now with a big smile on his face.....

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:59 AM

So..... is he crap or is he brilliant?

Both - depending on your outlook and your musical taste.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

Exactly! And that's not saying anything bad about him is it really?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM

They lost something when Belinda O'Hooley's acid drop comments and parlour piano went IMHO, but they're still a very strong act. Anyone who describes Rachel Unthank as a weak singer needs to clean their ears out. The edge they had in their early stuff has been replaced by some blissed out string production, and that's an honest opinion.

I would be good to hear future albums given a rawer, less obviously commercial sound.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

Are you allowed to just not like someone's musical output, without being accused of "begrudging" something or other?

The Unthanks seem like very nice, sincere people. But what they do doesn't impress me. I don't resent their success, I'm not jealous or any other neurotic thing, they're just not my cup of tea. Is it permissible to merely express a negative opinion, based on the work the artists produce (not their Selves) without getting called names and cod-psychoanalised by a bunch of people who don't know me?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

caitlin rua - Of course you can have an opinion - positive or negative - and why shouldn't you?

The point is, to just express it on a board like Mudcat is neither here nor there. What does it prove? It tells us that you don't like x - no more nor less.

So, if I simply post: "I don't like Leonard Cohen" - it's a meaningless statement.

Whereas, a reasoned appraisal of Leonard Cohen, giving some sort of perpective, is a different kettle of fish.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM

I think its the inequality of it that bugs a lot of us.

So many of the folkerati never seem to have to pay their dues. They get the cushy arts centre gigs, the fawning folk club audiences, kiss arse reviews - never having learned how to work an audience or produce a memorable piece of music - never mind having no clue how to present it and introduce it.

even if their albums are complete shite - they get more column inches in froots et al. explaining and forgiving them than working jobbing musicians get for four star albums containing their life's work.

Its hard to explain the resentment if you haven't seen your friends live and die in obscurity - often having spent their lives giving spellbinding performances on the minor stages of folk festivals and in tiny clubs.

Then those with the whip hand wonder why no one is listening to their bloody awful radio nd tv programmes, and why theres no general support for folk music. Five minutes is usually enough for the a folkmusic neutral with his finger on the remote control.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

Hey Tom - If you were to start singing spice girl covers I may even listen. But give us plenty of warning before taking your kit off for the Mirror...

:-)

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM

Brilliant Alan, brilliant

L in C#