Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Having said all that. i don't begrudge anyone anything. I just wish there was a fairer way of going on.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

Indeed it's long been something of a mystery of British Folk Music, that those who gain 'fame' seem to be resented or seen as no longer true to the Folk tradition. Numerous examples, some you've mentioned, one that always comes to mind is an outfit called Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again.

It does seem to be almost peculiar to the British scene too. Back home in Ireland trad acts that go from locally popular to international fame, Dubliners, Christy Moore ,and Co, become revered and very much placed on a pedestol and honoured in all sorts of ways. Here? They're treated almost like traitors. Is it jealousy, resentment, snobbery? or just the British way?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

I am lucky I count a number of artists amongst my acquaintances. I watch them struggling to make a living - virtually all of them - by travelling up and down the motorways of the UK and playing for very little at Arts Centres and folk clubs.

Most "cushy" Arts Centre gigs pay the usual percentages against a guarantee that they always did. So do most folk clubs. I am not sure how that makes them cushy and what might look like a prestigious tour around arts centres might just be a borrowing to finance a series of gigs based on someone's mortgage.

And @ Ron Olesko - I am "one of the folk revival crowd" I first got interested in this music around 1961. I am lucky I have a radio show where I can champion the young musicians. Tomorrow's show will have a fantastic duo called Walsh and Pound. Take a listen to the podcast. Second half. Details on Mudcat under "Thank Goodness It's Folk".

One of the "young musicians" said to me recently the thing they liked about folk music was that you could talk to the older musicians and they listened to what young people said and the young people were treated as equals. There is a ton of young talented and highly skilled musicians playing this music. All making their own way. In their own way.

Since Lizzie believes in the existence of a Folk Family Mafia, would you like to perhaps say who is in it?

Or indeed Al, who do you reckon is in it?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

"Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again."

Might be because they broke up and turned into the Oyster Band.

But much more likely it was that old folk snobbery again.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:16 PM

Just for Desi C's benefit, Fiddlers Dram, who were 'barely mentioned or heard of again' morphed into the Oysterband, who, I believe, are still enjoying some success!

and to add my thoughts on the original question, the Unthanks don't float my boat, as the saying goes, but if others enjoy them, they must be doing something right. I don't think it is a question of 'begrudging success' more that we all know other artists who we would consider better performers and more worthy of the exposure. Don't see the aforementioned Oysterband on national TV for instance. At risk of taking the debate of at a tangent, it seems to me that it is the 'bright young things' that get the national media attention, maybe that's why you don't see the Oysterband, too old in their 50's

John

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:40 PM

Oh Dave ......I despair of you!

We had the same crap a few years ago when I was driven off Mudcat by a storm of abuse and your insistence that I provide name and packdrill.

No I'm not going to give offence to people whoa as you say work hard and many of whom are my personal fioends.

But I DO know, and they know that they live a whole lot easier than artists who have work out strategies and buy equipment that will 'eat' a noisy indifferemt room - usually for half the fee - and without the all the cushy audiences British council tours and god knows how many other perks that go with being 'in with the establisment. how much more difficult to be doing all those miles for nothing but a few unpaid minutes on a minor stage, in the vain hope of consiglieri of the folk mafia giving you the time of day.

Every bugger knows its going on, just give it a rest and put a bloody sock in it. Its bad enough that what is happening is happening and have it happening in front of your eyes for forty years without being told that I'm seeing things.

I'm not seeing things and sucking up to the very small fish inthe folk music pool will ultimately buy you nothing.

as Bob Dylan said

the cops don't need you and man, they expect the same....

In the end we all get what we deserve. they get to produce to a whole slew of unmemorable crap music, and the lucky ones of us get to be one hit wonders.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

one that always comes to mind is an outfit called Fiddlers Dram, must be best part of 30 years+ ago the had a surprise big hit with the song, day Trip to Bangor. Only days previously they'd been quite a popular booking on the club scene, after the chart success they were barely mentioned or heard of again.

Basically they became the Oysterband eventually.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

That'd be the "Dave" that gave up his radio show to a couple of your mates two years ago and told them they could pick and choose the music to their heart's content.

I am still waiting for their thank you letter. But don't worry the complaints slowed to a trickle after a month or so.

Let's just assume there is such a thing as a folk mafia for a moment.

One thing is for certain they are not making a living at it because all the organisers I know have other jobs. Apart from a couple of larger folk festivals people give up their free time to run festivals, and folk clubs. There is no fortune to be made that's for sure.

What you are saying is that what they do voluntarily is refuse to choose people who (according to you) know how to put a song over, have great stage presence and can sing and play. Instead they choose (again according to you) a bunch of lesser talented people.

They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.

And if that isn't what you are saying - precisely how does this "folk establishment" (or as someone else called it "Folk Family Mafia") work?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM

"And @ Ron Olesko - I am "one of the folk revival crowd" I first got interested in this music around 1961. I am lucky I have a radio show where I can champion the young musicians. Tomorrow's show will have a fantastic duo called Walsh and Pound. Take a listen to the podcast. Second half. Details on Mudcat under "Thank Goodness It's Folk". "

That is wonderful news Folkiedave! That is EXACTLY what we need more of!

Perhaps this entire thread was based on a false pretense. Perhaps Nick's original premise, and my own thoughts, are based on individual experiences and DO not represent the overall feeling. I hope that is the case, as it would certainly make me feel good to be wrong!

Folk music needs open arms and open ears.   I think we are lucky on this side of the Atlantic, I experience more acceptance of both the trad and contemporary. Support of young performers is also highly encouraged in these parts!    The future does look bright!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM

I dunno des - there seems to be domestic irish fame and the ones that go international - they don't all go international - despite the numerous irish communities round the world.

i was always amazed Johnny MacEvoy didn't go global. I still love his stuff. quite a lot of Irish acts seem anchored on the ould sod.

i had a soft spot for the JCB song man.

i always think Irish people have their folk stuff better integrated than we do.

Even a bloke like Daniel O'Donnel does some folk material - Cliff richard doesn't have that same flexiblity - despite having a similar sort of niche in the market (boy singer/no dick, as Father ted wittily remarked.)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

The idea that anyone would go into folk music because it pays is bizarre, even insane. Traditional music was always 'of the people'; it needed nor desired marketing, had no agents or producers - anyone can stand up and sing a folk song.

To find a market that pays requires the performer to cross-over into popular culture. Usually that means they have sex appeal, or some other instant claim on attention, like a thoroughly remarkable voice. Marketing alone will not guarantee commercial success, nor will competence, even genius on an instrument (though it all helps). If you want to pay the bills, folk music is the last medium I'd choose to do it, and if you achieved it folkies would abandon you virtually to a man or woman.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

Well you listed artists who have hardly done that!!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman - PM
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

You've lost me folkiedave. Are you saying those artists I listed don't have some immediate appeal?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:53 PM

Not at all - I was trying to say they hadn't crossed over into (more) popular culture and that they had achieved some success.

I suspect we are probably in agreement.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

Depends what you mean by popular culture FD. I don't know if the Unthanks have done Breakfast TV but I'll guess they have. They've certainly done Woman's Hour and pop music radio. That's on the big radar.

Some things just need more exposure and a decent hook to hang the idea on, Buenavista Social Club's musicians spring to mind or the Oh Brother Where Art Thou sound track rehabilitating Old Timey in the popular consciousness. I don't believe there's anything antipathetic about folk music and popularity, if it entered the public consciousness via a film sound track or a brilliant documentary it would do well. It's just not very well sold as a product, so it occupies the area of good taste and discernment rather than instant recognition.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM

I don't begrudge them success, I just don't like the noise they make.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

On reading this thread, and the other Unthanks thread, I am getting the impression that, in some circles, it is considered bad form to express negative opinions on any artist - especially if that artist has achieved any sort of success.

Let's get one thing straight if I say that I don't particularly like the Unthanks it's not because I "begrudge" their success! To make that inference is so stupid, childish and immature it takes my breath away! The initiator of this thread should grow up.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM

This is to Al, mainly.

There is no direct correlation between talent and success - there never has been in any field, musical or otherwise.

It's about having sufficient talent to deliver something people will value, and then being in the right place at the right time.

Yes, you can manoeuvre yourself into somewhere you think might be the right place at the right time, and that's absolutely part of the deal - but it doesn't guarantee success - even if you win the lottery and spend it all advertising in Mojo.

You have to be good enough in the first place, AND in the final analysis. You can fluke a break as I did when a third party sent Waterman our demo and he loved it, but if you can't follow that up (my band imploded with one guy leaving to be a careers officer - no, really he did - one overdose, and one hospitalised with that thing Dennis Potter had from the stress) the thing soon fizzles out.

I know scores of musicians in many fields who are 'better' than others more 'successful.' Some of the 'successful' ones have suffered badly, some of the 'better' ones are much happier. There is no justice - but if there was, who would decide the merits of either or each? It's impossible.

Some great players are useless at organising themselves and the breaks that do come along slip through their fingers. Some great organisers are barely good enough players but get away with it because they know know how to sharp the cards (like me, perhaps).

But the bottom line is this:

All Alan's 'folkerati' mentioned in this thread ARE good enough. They HAVE paid their dues. (Arts centre gigs are NOT cushy - they can be exceeding grim and hard work and next time I see you I'll explain why). They HAVE done their best to put themselves in the right place at the right time - often at considerable personal and financial cost. And they HAVE made the best of the breaks that did come their way, which usually means taking big risks and a hell of a lot of hard work. And they're NOT making a fortune - minimum wage or slightly better, once you even it all out.

But this is what matters: They've put themselves in the firing line of mainstream public opinion - and have emerged respected and admired by large numbers of people - many of whom are no saps, musically or otherwise (and many are extremely knowledgeable - not that that's a prerequisite for an opinion)

No-one said we had an equal opportunities scheme in the folk world, and we don't (outside of floor singing in some clubs, perhaps). But we do have a meritocracy. Yes, a few duds (like me, perhaps) manage to fool some of the people some of the time, but you don't get on Later doing that.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

I don't know if the Unthanks have done Breakfast TV but I'll guess they have

One of them certainly has - she got a gig I ought to have had! Not that I am resentful, I wouldn't want you to think that!! :-)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

Hahahahah Bonzo, that just sums it all up. End of story. Hahahhah. Lovely.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:21 PM

``Yes, a few duds (like me, perhaps) manage to fool some of the people some of the time``

I take serious issue with you on that remark, Tom, because it`s bullshit. You want to quit the game that`s one thing, but do NOT put yourself down on the way out the door.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM

LOL - it's an old gunfighter's trick.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

Well, long as we got THAT straight.

I received your schedule for the upcoming months, Tom, and I wish I could get to England to see and hear you in person. Knock `em out, buddy.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

Tom,
Strangely enough and unlike many I know I'm not actually an Unthanks basher. I quite like some of their stuff, e.g., the song George wrote that they do very well. I enjoyed their TV dancing programmes which were very well crafted IMO.

What bothers me is that again IMO they are no better or worse than a host of other young bands coming up, or older bands for that matter.
Yes, Adrian has done a marvellous job and works very hard.

As you say whether they do trad or their own stuff is immaterial.

Sorry, Dave, but I'm with Alan and Shimrod.

The Folk Awards?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:55 PM

I'm sorry you got complaints after Tony and Una took over your radio programme. I will contact them and ask them to apologise to you and your listeners of true discernment - bearers of the true tradition all, I imagine.

Mafias all work the same dave. its called self interest.

If anyone isn't making a full time living out of music - very frankly its because they can't.

Its a craft. takes time to learn it, dedication. vows of poverty - or at least indifference to worldly fortune.

Run a university course saying that theres another way - and you're lying and misleading young folk.

'What you are saying is that what they do voluntarily is refuse to choose people who (according to you) know how to put a song over, have great stage presence and can sing and play. Instead they choose (again according to you) a bunch of lesser talented people.'


Yup thats what i'm saying.

'They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.'

Well I think access to public funds has a certain amount to do with it.

I will inform Tony and Una immediately about their stewardship of your programme causing weeks of complaints. I never realised you had that many listeners. I'm surprised you entrusted them to such unworthy characters. clearly - you must avoid taking risks like that in the future.

Just checked - Tony and Una are on tour - anyway its Una's birthday today so I won't phone them tonight and worry them with this attack upon them. I've sent the text of your comments in an e-mail, and i guess - Tony being very polite, will be in contact to apologise if that seems appropriate to him.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

Nice to see you, Ron - You don't get on here often enough nowadays but I ask about the comment -

I think we are lucky on this side of the Atlantic, I experience more acceptance of both the trad and contemporary. Support of young performers is also highly encouraged in these parts!    The future does look bright!

Bearing in mind that this thread was started mentioning young and new BritFolk how has it come to your statement that being west of the pond is somehow better? Not saying that it isn't - I have been there and loved it - but I feel extremely lucky that I am in England and experiencing the resurgence that the OP mentioned with such bands as the Unthanks, Mumford and Sons, Bellowhead etc. As you will know if you read my earlier comments, they are not all my cup of tea, but at least they are making their mark and it is very exciting:-)

Good luck to you and your folk revival - Fleet Foxes to mention but one!

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,No Fixed Commode
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

You may think Tony and Una are the bees knees Al, but maybe the reason that they don't get bookings isn't because the mafia keeps them out. Maybe it's because of their cheesey, end of the pier, big haired soft rock. One man's musical geniuses are another's vision of music hell. That's just life.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

Sorry Steve - I read your remark as saying The Unthanks had 'sold out' which would be as silly as saying my deep green mate who lives off grid in Otley and is as committed to sustainability as they come, and is now running a small business on low margins putting retrofit interior insulation into people's houses has sold out.

I read your comment on the other thread about people being pushed too far by their managers. When that happens they don't usually marry them.

Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you. They just have a different opinion to you, (which happens to be in tune with a majority view - they're very careful in their research) and that's what happens in a free society. If your chums were in the right pace at the right time - who knows. But most of us are in that soup, and it's not the end of the world. Some of us go on to make political campaigning films about peak oil, and write musicals, and get asked to start up new schools of ecological design by major universities - which wouldn't have happened if we'd been successful enough to get onto Later. You see? No point in being bitter. Seize the day and have fun

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM

Tom
I don't think marriage is relevant here. They are obviously ticking all the right boxes to maintain a high profile. I just hope they don't start believing their own hype.

There was a lot of banter earlier on about taking clothes off. IMO there are already too many naked ones among the top acts at the moment and I'm with those who have spotted the Emperor's new clothes.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:50 PM

"Bearing in mind that this thread was started mentioning young and new BritFolk how has it come to your statement that being west of the pond is somehow better? Not saying that it isn't - I have been there and loved it - but I feel extremely lucky that I am in England and experiencing the resurgence that the OP mentioned with such bands as the Unthanks, Mumford and Sons, Bellowhead etc. As you will know if you read my earlier comments, they are not all my cup of tea, but at least they are making their mark and it is very exciting:-)"


I'm not in a position to accurately compare the two countries.   The inference of the initial thread was that there was a faction that "begrude success" of young performers.   You can tell me if that is the case or not, hopefully it was just misrepresented in the initial statements.

Here in the U.S., for the most part, I am seeing a warm embrace to the newcomers that are making waves.   The other night, a network TV series called "The Voice" featured Rebecca Loebe, an artist who plays the contemporary folk scene here in the U.S. When I spoke with her last fall, she was bascially living in her car and traveling the country doing house concerts and whatever gig she could pick up. To see her on national TV was outstanding, and the folk community is strongly supporting her.

Yes, there is a faction of died-in-the-wool folkies that won't accept contemporary singer-songwriters coming out of a folk tradition, but they are the minority from what I see.   We too are enjoying hearing our "new kids" taking up the mantle, and seeing groups like Mumford & Sons (one of my favorite CD's of last year) is wonderful. I hope we have another "British invasion" because I think you have some amazing performers, and I hope our audiences will enjoy them as well.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:08 PM

'Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you'

Er no! Its what i believe.

We live in an island with people who are musically sensitive and speak a very expressive language, which contains all sorts of variations and rhythms.

If they played the work of people who expressed themselves naturally then the game would be up. Lots of people would do it write and sing songs, quite unaffectedly. that's why Ewan was so down on Donovan - he thought every Tom, Dick and Harry would be horning in on his game.

A corollary of this is that people would realise that the word traditional come from the Latin - traditio - I hand over. Most traditional English music from Cecil Sharp's time to the present day has just been handed over from one gang of middle class twonks to another.

So what do they do.. they say we sing with a mid Atlantic accent. ignoring the fact that England isn't really very far into the North Atlantic. Its certainly not South - its somewhere round the middle.

If England were situated in the middle of the 19th century martin carthy would have the right accent. sadly not the case.

Anyway, I heard you sing at lambley - you don't sing in a weird voice - why are YOU sticking up for them?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:08 PM

'Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you'

Er no! Its what i believe.

We live in an island with people who are musically sensitive and speak a very expressive language, which contains all sorts of variations and rhythms.

If they played the work of people who expressed themselves naturally then the game would be up. Lots of people would do it write and sing songs, quite unaffectedly. that's why Ewan was so down on Donovan - he thought every Tom, Dick and Harry would be horning in on his game.

A corollary of this is that people would realise that the word traditional come from the Latin - traditio - I hand over. Most traditional English music from Cecil Sharp's time to the present day has just been handed over from one gang of middle class twonks to another.

So what do they do.. they say we sing with a mid Atlantic accent. ignoring the fact that England isn't really very far into the North Atlantic. Its certainly not South - its somewhere round the middle.

If England were situated in the middle of the 19th century martin carthy would have the right accent. sadly not the case.

Anyway, I heard you sing at lambley - you don't sing in a weird voice - why are YOU sticking up for them?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:09 PM

sorry that was me.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:35 PM

I can't really add anything here as Tom has expressed many of my views on this so eloquently.

In the end it is a combination of luck and talent that results in success - fortunately those musicians on the folk scene who have reached wider audiences have talent in abundance - unlike some others whose luck has been more to the fore

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

And as for you No Fixed Commode....you comments are worthy of only one answer......

Plop!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

'They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.'

Well I think access to public funds has a certain amount to do with it.

Well I think you are seriously off your trolley. What public funds? A folk club with public funds? Some of the bigger folk festivals might get some help with things like road closures not being charged for and other payment in kind. Larger festivals do get grants of course - but they are regarded as an attraction to bring in people. Hiring low quality talent is not the way to do that!

I went to the Sheffield Session Festival over Easter. Public funds - nil.

On the Saturday I went to a folk club. Public funds - nil. I am off to a folk club next week. Public funds - nil.

I am off to Shepley Festival later this month. Public funds - nil.

I have belonged to a dance team for over thirty years. We have been all over Europe and also to South America. Public funds - nil.

I don't know who is getting this public subsidy Al, but I can assure you I have never seen a penny of it. And yes I have applied.

I have helped to organise or been a part of the Sheffield City Giants for over ten years. They belong to the City of Sheffield. In three trips to Spain, two other trips to Europe and a trip to Canada - all representing the City of Sheffield - have a guess Al. You got it Al. Fuck all.

But the logic of putting on lesser talent to get public subsidy still escapes me. You obviously don't think much of the public.

And do not bother Tony and Una on my behalf. I only mentioned it two years later because you accused me of bullying you. People may have forgotten that there was another side to the story. The complaints were about their choice of music. They can probably tell you who they played.

But I accept full responsibility for that. I know better now.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:30 PM

'Hiring low quality talent is not the way to do that!'

Says everything about the pompous arrogance of the middle class folkies and nothing bout the facts of the matter.


No bother at all Dave. Tony and Una jealously guard their reputation which has been painstakingly put together without any help from the many people who were paid from the public purse to help with the development of folk talent. Arts council Commissions, tours of village halls, the paid gigs at folk fetivals, radio plays by Harding, support from their local BBC station - Tony and Una saw none of it. Money from the public purse.

When Tony did your show he played low quality talent such as myself, Jack Hudson and No Fixed abode and some other people - I think Christy moore - but I couldn't swear. tony will have a list of what he did.

But if your listeners didn't know that Jack, myself, and NFA have been staunch supporters of folk clubs for years - and have been there on the scene. Doesn't this say something about folk radio. You really have got into state where half the folkscene is being ignored totally - and has frankly buggered off to leave you stewing in your own esoteric juice.

Incidentally Commode Man, Tony and Una DO get bookings. This is their most busy and commercially successful month they have ever enjoyed. they just get no recognition for being one of the hardest working folk duos in the country - no major reviews, no plays on the publicly funded radio.

No recognition for having (from necessity and a deep committment to folk music)developed a craft whereby they can take folkmusic into places that none of the current folk festival headliners could follow.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:47 PM

Who are Tony & Una - never heard of them?!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:01 PM

Tony and Una are No Fixed Abode

http://musicnfa.webs.com/biog.htm

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:19 PM

Of course its not really financial help people like Tony and Una need. Its not really what the Beeb has to give - its that recognition.

A publisher phoned me up from Germany a few years ago - having traced me through my website. Therss loads of stuff on the website, but the one thing he fastened upon was the fact that I'd got an award from the BBC. Now Sooz was there the night i got the award - it could have been me, her or a guy with a noseflute and a tambourine. I was the lucky one that night.

this is the favour that is within the remit of the top guys - prestige. And they do hand it out to some some suspiciously malleable youngsters and some frankly questionable types.

And you hear them chatting together backstage, about the time they played Sydney folk festival, or was it san Francisco, or was it that little one in malibu.

It would never have fitted in with my lifestyle - with a disabled wife to take care of. Jack hudson's too ill amd roger Brooks is dead....but Tony, Una... they deserve it.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:36 AM

Al, we are on a different planet. Clearly you have not been involved in protesting about the closure of local radio folk shows. Including your area. The very antithesis of getting airplay on local radio.

Village hall tours? No idea how they work. My friend lives in a village and they have never had a folk tour - though they do get other acts.

Village Hall Tours are big in Scotland of course but they employ mainly Scottish artists. The Arts Council there does give money for folk music not like England.

Mike Harding? Well Mike recently played a relatively unknown young singer song writer called Lucy Ward from Derby so he is hardly ignoring new talent. I played an interview with her well over a year ago.

And since you have mentioned Christy Moore a couple of times - at his last gig in Sheffield he mentioned that Malcolm Fox - who ran a folk club in Sheffield kept on booking him when he couldn't get a gig in Dublin. I suspect he could say the same about the two folk clubs in Hull one of which I was involved in. We booked him when he couldn't get gigs in Dublin too.

And neither of those folk clubs got a public subsidy either.

So Tony and Una are making a living now - and just need recognition.

I know which feeds the family.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:46 AM

Goodness me.

Steve - ok, but please bear in mind that noticing Emperors Garments is as subjective as any other opinion, and it's not shared by all. You don't happen to like some of the 'top' acts - but that doesn't make them fools or charlatans - which is, of course, the point of Hans Christian Andersen's fable. You've every right to feel that your opinion trumps that of Jools Holland, Later's producers, lots of other artists, other folk experts, and many thousands of fans, but it doesn't mean those artists are in fact nekkid. If we think they're good, then they are. Period.

As for believing one's own hype, I think most performers will tell you they have to manage an uncomfortably dualistic opinion around that. You do have to nurture self-belief. If you don't carry on as though you're good you'll never get any gigs. And if you didn't believe that the audience will think you're good, you'd never step on a stage. Yet at the same time you're secretly ginning to yourself, thinking, as you lurch into the wings with the applause ringing in your ears; hee hee - fooled 'em again!

The Peter Principle really does rule - albeit with various glass ceilings on the way up that can only be broken by good fortune coupled with huge effort. And once through each level, no-one expects their luck to last. You just make the best of it while you're there, expecting any minute to crash back down - and I know life-long, successful artists who still feel exactly that.

Al - this is tricky, because I'm having trouble following your logic. Tony and Una are good friends of mine too, and they are indeed excellent at what they do. Una has a really really lovely voice, and Tony's a very fine guitar player. They work damn hard and deserve much more success. But they're not being deliberately overlooked, they've just not had that kind of good fortune so far (but health, happiness and singing for a living is good fortune too, no?)

Making records that get played on the radio is a fine art - and even then luck is a major player. I get lots of plays on local radio, but never found the formula for Harding. That's partly about my repertoire, partly about my profile, partly about the way I managed my career but probably mainly about my voice - which is just not Radio 2. No point in being bitter about it. I'm just hugely grateful that two years into retirement I still get a decent PRS check every quarter from the radio plays I still do get.

The village hall thing is not a gift from some Emperor's Aide at the arts council. It's a spectacularly challenging game - in direct competition with jazz bands, puppeteers, novelists, circus acts, classical quartets - you name it, which requires all sorts of skills that great musicians don't automatically possess - around creating product, marketing, branding, pitching, negotiating - things I happen to be quite good at, so I've done a lot of halls. If T and U want some advice on what to do, tell them to give me a bell. I'd be glad to help.

You seem to believe that there is a conspiracy of gatekeepers who decide who wins and who looses. Well, there is, but they are subject to exactly the same constraints as the artists. They all - at the many different levels and tasks they engage in - want to be successful if they can get away with it, whether they are club bookers, producers, record company A+R, magazine editors. They're all looking for good, worthwhile music to feature and support. Anyone can have a go, and the same Peter Principle applies.

It's still about being in the right place at the right time - hearing that demo, or seeing that great new young act on the side stage at a festival.

In general, you have to be good, canny AND lucky. You need to put yourself in the way of good fortune. Hard work earning a crust and impressing people is seldom enough - it might pay the bills, but...

Malleable youngsters? We've all been one of those - but we learn. Questionable types? I refer you to the response I made above to Steve: Remember the difference between subjective and objective opinion. To do otherwise only brings bitterness.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:12 AM

I agree totally with Nick about Elton John - I can't stand his music/image etc - but the man DID pay his dues in the early years - working the club circuit as a band member, playing as a session man and composing music, for years before making it big. The man writes his own music and plays it well. I too, saw him in 1970 when he was just beginning to be accepted by the then hippie/alternative rock scene as the next big thing. John Peel at the time championed him and said "One day this man will be a household name" people laughed. When Elton made it. The same hippies that had cheered him at the London Roundhouse turned their backs and snarled "Crap"

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM

Performer A and Performer B have identical amounts of talent. Peformer A makes it on radio, TV, etc.("A is lucky, oh so lucky")* and B doesn't. Why? Tom's outlined many of the variables: being in the right place at right time or making the effort to being there, knowing the right people or making the effort to know the right people, fitting the current fashion or adapting yourself to fit it. I've known, and do know, many wonderful performers who will get little or no hearing in the professional music business, not only because of the variables above, but probably also because they don't have a burning ambition to make it whatever that entails - or personal circumstances have conspired to make it difficult. That's life.

Here's a personal anecdote:

The most money I've made on a regular, pay-the-rent basis, from music is while playing in a 1950s, hard-core rock'n roll trio from around 1982 to 1995. We had an agent and we played every social club, British Legion, Trades & Labour Club, Con Club, etc. in a hundred mile radius. We played dinner dances once a month at the Old Ship Hotel in Brighton. We did birthday parties and the occasional wedding reception. We did support stints on tours with people like Showaddywaddy and Bernie Flint (anyone remember Bernie Flint?). And - best of all - we played for unreconstructed, middle-aged Teds and their wives in the Swan in Worthing. This where we saw some of the best jiving ever to be seen - and received the straightest and most up front criticism if we hadn't played something quite right!

All this was at a time when '50s rock'n roll (nothing later than 1961...) was deeply unfashionable. We got by because, even though I say it myself, we were bloody good. In fact, we were shit hot - we looked great, we sounded great - and we put it across.

Why did it end for me? Several reasons. Doing the same music solidly for 13 years with little variation became a drag. Then there were the tours - as Charlie Watts said about touring with the Stones: 10% playing and 90% hanging around. Then were the Showcases! If you don't know what a Showcase is, it's a freebie put on for potential bookers by agents. The agents book a venue, bring entertainers from their stable to perform one after another, while the bookers get wined and dined and take notes. Utterly dispiriting and boring - like being a whore sitting in a window for hour after hour with no trade. The last straw was when our agent got permission for us to use the name of a long defunct but well-known band (because the drummer had played with them briefly). So - we were going to change our name, step up to a higher level, become part of the 'you-know-the-name-of-these-has-beens' circuit - playing themed rock'n roll weekends at holiday camps in midwinter, etc. In short, taking us away from the roots of what we were doing.

I quit - with relief and joined a Memphis/Stax-style funk band in Brighton. No money but back to the roots. So, just another showbiz story of Mr. Average, the jobbing musician. But - and here's the point: I needn't have quit. I could have pushed and pushed again, made some more contacts, switched agents, got on the blower to this person and that person, talked the talk...

And, do you know - I couldn't be arsed.

*Gilbert and Sullivan

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:08 AM

Lets just forget it. You think your stuff, I'll think mine. We all have to take the world as we find it. I speak from what my considerable experience has taught me - your considerable experience has taught you something else.

As for the complaints about Tony and una doing your radio programme, you really should have informed Tony. he might have got something from it. At the time I knew I wasn't right for your show, and told him so.

Still i think that says a lot about how far adrift folk radio is from folk clubs. I'm usually considered acceptable or pt uppable with for one song at least, in most folk clubs these more tolerant times.

Lucy and her family, i know quite well. She came quite often to the folkclub in Spondon that Denise and i used to go to. In Derby, we all wish her well.

Christ i hate getting old, i'm not in Derby any more! But in general I wish all the players on the folk scene well.

Sorry Dave, i stick by my guns. No names, no packdrill. I am not going to discuss individuals and their careers

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:03 PM

Tom,
Your descriptions tell me that actually there is only a fine line running between our two stances. I suppose what I'm really carping against is that the top of the folk scene for some acts is little removed from the pop scene in its machinations.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

I don't, myself, recognise any defining line between the folk scene and the pop scene, or the pop scene and the blues scene, or the blues scene and the reggae scene. It's all a multi-hued picture. You can put a pin in one place and say, yep, they'd red all right, or over there, blue - but in-between there are all manner of pinks and mauves and purples. And that does for musical style, roots, methods, techniques - anything you want. The White Heather Club was Folk. The Clash were folk. The Coppers and the Kippers. Fairport. The Pogues and The Watersons. In each case different criteria, different circumstances, different objectives, different audience, different values. But all valid and good within their own terms.

All that matters is that people are not unfairly judged by inappropriate criteria. Playing trad informed music from a trad background in a pop or any other context is simply not selling out. It really isn't.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

Folks, life`s too short for this shit, imo. On this thread we have some wonderful writers and singers arguing about wonderful writers and singers with other wonderful writers and singers. In the vernacular, it don`t make no sense to me.

Al, it`s in the mail.

BM

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:53 PM

I fail to see anything in the Unthanks music or performance that makes Mudcat threads go into repeated meltdown.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:55 PM

One Nun Dead!