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BS: Teenage Suicide
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Subject: BS: Teenage Suicide From: SINSULL Date: 01 May 11 - 11:52 AM New Hampshire Public TV has a series of Independent films which are shown on Sunday mornings. They are always brilliantly done and thought provoking. Today's was about teenage suicide in Pennsylvania. The film concentrated on two aspects - first, a group that counsels families who have lost a child to suicide and second on research funded by the Mellon Foundation which seems to indicate a brain malfunction that triggers suicidal thoughts and actions in teenagers. I found it comforting for the families who have blamed themselves for their own loss and frightening for the rest of us. The implication is that even the most watchful parent can not prevent a suicide with counseling, talking to their children, etc. If the impulse hits and a child is impaired little can be done to prevent him or her from acting on the impulse. It adds some credence to the claim that we here so often from close friends and families - "We saw nothing to hint that anything was wrong." Depression and bi-polar personality aside, there are teens with brains not fully functional who will try suicide because of a lack of brain activity in the frontal lobe. The film was dedicated to the "lost" children whose photos, ages and date of suicide were played out at the end. So many beautiful, seemingly happy children in prom photos, sports uniforms, charity events, graduations, Funny how often I have looked at a child who seemed ripe for hurting him or herself and never did. A piece to the puzzle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: SINSULL Date: 01 May 11 - 11:55 AM That's "hear". The research hopes to find identifying markers that will alert medical professionals and parents to a potential suicide and to develop drugs to improve brain activity. This seems to be a temporary "illness" affecting developing teenage brains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Date: 01 May 11 - 11:58 AM I was surprised to hear the number of road traffic accidents involving one car are actually considered to be suicides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 11 - 04:02 PM I somtimes wonder if the medical profession have a part to play though. From personal experience I know that some of the drugs issued for depression can cause a feeling of 'it doesn't matter' - Including the same attitude to life, sadly. Not saying it is so in all or even a significant number, of cases but would drugs necessarily be a good thing? I'm not sure either way. MP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 01 May 11 - 04:23 PM I understand there are websites which wickedly inform young people how to kill themselves, and which glorify suicide, making a type of cult out of it. If a teenager is depressed, disturbed, in turmoil etc, these sites could be literally lethal. Very interesting to consider the possibility of a malfunction of the brain in some cases. I'm so very sorry for the parents of teenagers who have ended their young lives like this. However can they come to terms with it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 01 May 11 - 04:25 PM Many people on the verge of suicide keep things locked away inside themselves. So many young people are stressed to the hilt these days, no childhood filled with freedom and relaxation as we were able to have....and a loss of hope for the future perhaps too, getting a job, keeping it, affording a home, raising a family...All the things we took for granted. You didn't often hear of teenagers committing suicide back when I was that age, although I'm sure a few did. Now you hear about it far more, which is so desperately sad. I have this terrible feeling we're going to hear about it more and more too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 01 May 11 - 04:36 PM Yup, suicide is a cult thing these days..they've even Corporatised that... Cool, huh? Geez, what a sordid, depressing world this is becoming. I think that's why so many watched The Wedding, because it made people feel happy, just for one day only...happiness reigned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Joe_F Date: 01 May 11 - 06:08 PM "I see nothing mysterious about these suicides. The impulse to self-destruction is a natural accompaniment of the educational process. Every intelligent student, at some time or other during his college career, decides gloomily that it would be more sensible to die than to go on living. I was myself spared the intellectual humiliation of a college education, but during my late teens, with the enlightenment gradually dawning within me, I more than once concluded that death was preferable to life. At that age the sense of humor is in a low state. Later on, by the mysterious working of God's providence, it usually recovers. "What keeps a reflective and skeptical man alive? In large part, I suspect, it is this sense of humor. But in addition there is curiosity...." -- H. L. Mencken (April 3, 1927) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 11 - 06:28 PM Every intelligent student, at some time or other during his college career, decides gloomily that it would be more sensible to die than to go on living. If so that puts me in my place, I suppose. I'm pretty certain the idea never even occurred to me at any time. But maybe what Mencken mentions in the next paragraph is more important - curiosity. Wanting to know what's going to happen next keeps us involved, as with soap operas - that's one plausible explanation why the suicide rate goes down in time of war. You do actually have lots of teenagers who, at least on the surface, seem to lack curiosity. I would assume that for most that's a kind of pose, but when it's real I'd see that as a warning sign of something seriously amiss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 02 May 11 - 04:46 AM I think a lot of people who kill themselves seem not to have thought it through. I'm referring to the "romantic" suicide and the spite suicide - the latter often accompanied by murder of their children. They don't seem to have considered that they won't be around to see the effect. So what if that ex- girlfriend feels guilty, or the ex- partner's life is ruined- the suicide doesn't get to see the revenge. And that's not to mention the general effect of the chosen method on others, Never step in front of a train- you might well be making the driver unemployable as he relives speeding towards you unable to do anything about it. And that might plunge his family into poverty. Suicide can be a rational choice, but it's incumbent on the person choosing it to do it cleanly and certainly. Preferably leaving others uncertain if it is suicide at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 02 May 11 - 05:27 AM The point is, if that 'science' is correct, about the brains of young people, then why has this not always been a major problem, throughout history? Teenage suicides are on the rise, alarmingly so. So there are other factors, MANY other factors involved here. I deliberately left out the stress and misery caused by the Edukashon R Us Corporate Bastards, with their constant examinations, testing and tick boxes, with all the pressure that puts on teachers to achieve unachievable targets. I left it out because normally, the pack who follow me round go bonkers at me. However, with that highly intelligent quote above by H. L. Mencken (thanks for that Joe F) I'll dare to speak the name of what I consider to be the most major reason in the rise of teenage suicides... If you start your life being pressured to the point where you can't think straight, if you feel the whole of your life will be one big examination, where you're being judged on your 'achievements' all day long, year out, year in, then what kind of life does a young person start to envisage? We have created a situation where the Soul of the young person is completely ignored, their feelings completely ignored, in the crazy rush to meet those targets, keep those jobs, get your school higher up the League Tables.... It's interesting that the Head Teachers are all banding and bonding together right now to consider striking about their pensions, but they won't consider striking about their pupils being put under inordinate amounts of stress. It sickens me, because they have the power to turn all of this around in an instant, yet they choose not to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 02 May 11 - 06:51 AM I think suicide has always been there but, being a deadly sin and all, was much covered up. And that's not all gone either: few years ago for example here in Clare a priest drove his car off a pier, left a note and the family still sued the media for suggesting it was suicide. And, if I remember correctly, they appealed the coroner's rapport to have the verdict changed. Last year our neighbours' son hanged himself, twenty years old. We used to share a school run. It was beyond heartbreaking when the body was brought back to the house. Suicide, especially among young men, in Ireland is the highest in the Western world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 May 11 - 07:08 AM Suicide, especially among young men, in Ireland is the highest in the Western world. That does not in fact appear to be true. This chart puts Ireland at 26 among OECD countries, behind such places as the United Staes, France, Germany, Australia and Canada. One place ahead of the United Kingdom - but when it comes to male suicides the UK has a worse (ie higher) rating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 02 May 11 - 09:44 AM Here, if you don't believe me, watch this...it's about a young Indian student, just 15 years old...who could no longer take the stress of examinations. He knew his life revolved around 'PASS' and 'FAIL'... Do you want to know why this woke some folks in India up??? Because that month alone, ALONE, ***30*** students committed suicide! This is a WORLDWIDE problem! The Education System is killing our children and not a single bloody teacher seems to have the guts to stand up and say "Shit! ENOUGH!" And Yes, I DO have the right to comment on this because my daughter gave up on life at the age of 15, half way through her bloody GCSEs...I watched her go downhill, so stressed out...until one day, when she was curled up in the foetal position on her bedroom floor, unable to talk, unable to tell me what was wrong, I stood up and said "ENOUGH!"....It took me 2 years to get her back to where she used to be before the bloody system ingrained into her that exams were ALL that mattered in her life. Our children judge *each other* by their exam results now too, not just judged by their teachers alone. It's one of the most appalling and disgraceful things to have happened, that children are choosing death over life, to get away from constant testing, and a constant feeling of having 'failed'... So, if YOU are a teacher, and I know there are many out there in Mudcatland and the folk world in general, take a step back, look at things differently and ask yourself what the hell you're doing being part of a system that is damaging so many children...that has put stress on so many parents, feeling their child MUST achieve these insane exams, purely to have a LIFE. Get together, talk it over, and then, do something really easy, just say "Enough!". Stop the testing. Stop the examinations. Stop the judging. Stop the depression. Stop the suicides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 02 May 11 - 09:46 AM Forgot the link.... Suicide of 15 year old Indian student - 1 of 30 in a month There are so many of these videos out there on Youtube, it breaks my heart! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 May 11 - 12:58 PM It is interesting that suicide might be attributable to a "brain malfunction" but I doubt that knowing that will help much. What are you going to do? Have every kid routinely subjected to a brain scan? A lot of people would object to that, and I don't think it would be economically feasible. Do you think people who suspect their child is depressed will voluntarily come forward and ask to have the kid's brain scanned? Perhaps a few will. But I think the majority will reject the opportunity, just as they reject the tools that are now available, like counseling and medication. Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but hey, I have a history of depression myself, and if I don't have a license to be pessimistic, who does? The statement that "even the most watchful parent cannot prevent a suicide" is too general and needs some qualification. Diligent watchfulness and care won't prevent every suicide, but it will prevent a lot of them. News of child suicides is often suppressed. I know of one case that went like this: A student at the school where my wife teaches committed suicide. (My wife teaches singing classes, so she is somewhat acquainted with all the students.) It happened in the afternoon, after school. All the teachers were notified by phone around 5pm. We switched on the TV. A news crew, police, and ambulance were gathered around the boy's house. "Police say there has been a shooting at..., and one person is dead" was all they said, and then, "Stay tuned." We stayed tuned, and watched the 6pm news, but the incident was not mentioned again. The boy used a handgun which was kept in a locked cabinet. His parents said they thought the boy didn't know where the key was hidden, but he did. I only know this because my wife heard it at school. The media never reported on it, beyond what I have already described. I'm sure Mencken was faithfully reporting his own experience, but I think he over-generalizes. I'm sure not everyone has contemplated suicide—my wife, for example. I have discussed depression and my past suicidal thoughts at length with her. She says she has never contemplated suicide, nor experienced depression like mine, and I am convinced she is telling the truth. I have seen her live through experiences that undoubedly would have precipitated a bout of depression in me, but she rebounds from those experiences quickly and thoroughly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Folkiedave Date: 02 May 11 - 06:05 PM The statistics seem to indicate that the rates of suicide generally are going down. Including amongst young people. Certainly there is no visible link between the education system and suicide as Lizzie indicates. However I am sure she will have some statistics to show I am wrong. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1092 And before she starts bleating - this has nothing to do with being one of a pack that follows Lizzie around. It is to do with people reading at least some facts behind the rubbish she spouts about the education system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Ruth Archer Date: 02 May 11 - 06:50 PM two girls in my high school killed themselves. More than 20 years ago. One had gone through depression since primary school and hanged herself at 17, the other threw herself down the stairs after her boyfriend dumped her. A few years later, my friend's brother (from Waterford, funnily enough, Peter Laban) wrote off his father's car and couldn't face his parents. He went into their barn and blew his brains out with a shotgun. All of these happened within my acquaintance, decades ago, indicating that this is not a recent phenomenon. None of these deaths was related to education or exam pressure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 02 May 11 - 07:22 PM "However I am sure she will have some statistics to show I am wrong." I put a link in to a video that gives you all the proof you should need. I recommend you watch it. In it they talk about the connection between exam stress and suicide. They question the whole education system. Listen to what they have to say. There are, sadly, plenty more such videos on Youtube. There are many reasons why people, young and old, kill themselves, exam stress in the young is one of them. That stress is huge nowadays. What is happening is sick, really sick. The Guardian 2008 - Article on Stressed Out Students - Teachers Union in Torquay And from that article: "...Most teachers (89%) think stress comes from testing and exams, with family break-ups (68%) and peer and family pressure to do well (51%) also the main causes of problems. The recent phenomenon of cyber-bullying as a cause of stress was highlighted by 38% of teachers, compared to physical or verbal bullying (26%)...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Ruth Archer Date: 02 May 11 - 07:34 PM My daughter is in the middle of her A Levels. She - and all of her friends - seem to be doing just fine. Balancing their studies with a couple of barbeques this weekend, enjoying the lovely weather and the bank holiday, but still focusing on their work and getting on well. In my experience (and that of many others, apparently), this is the rule, rather than the exception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Ruth Archer Date: 02 May 11 - 07:39 PM Kids have always killed themselves. Sadly, they probably always will. Some have genuine emotional problems that stem from childhood or simply the way their brains are wired. But many are probably more to do with problems which, in teen years, seem much more serious at the time than they really are - as in two of my examples above. Teenagers can get problems and anxieties completely out of proportion. Sometimes, I expect, those will be problems with school, but that will always have been the case. Equally often, I suspect they will be problems with relative misdemeanours or love gone wrong. This is tragic, but it is not the fault of the education system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 May 11 - 10:04 PM FFS Lizzie, maybe if you had bothered to get an education you'd understand the word "proof". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: LadyJean Date: 03 May 11 - 12:36 AM I clean for some of the doctors involved in these studies. The studies are funded by drug companies. So are the doctors. So I'm not sure how much faith we can put in their results. My freshman year in college, I washed out of sorority rush. The college I was in was very Greek, so not pledging a sorority meant I was going to be an outsider in a very small school. Add to that that the college is in Kentucky and Kentucky winters are miserable, and it's possible to understand why I would look at my dorm room window and think, "If I jump out, I'll spare myself a lifetime of failure." I didn't jump. But I'm sure other girls in my situation did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 May 11 - 12:41 AM Long ago I read a book by a psychiatrist who marveled that her young patients would threaten suicide and their parents never even said "Don't do that." Not long after, a Vietnam vet I worked with talked of killing himself. Some a-hole said, "Yeah, Pat, why don't you?" I remembered the psychiatrist, and I said, "No, Pat, don't do that! You have another surgery coming up, but pretty soon it will be over. You'll be done with school, you'll be free of tests and classes. Beside, we all like you and we want you to live..." The others stared at me, open-mouthed and wide-eyed. It had never occurred to them just to talk sense. When Pat left the job, he gave me a huge, huge hug. I pray that he made it safely back to civilian life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 04:02 AM Richard, back off with the personal insults please, you do nothing but degrade yourself. Last night I was talking to my dearest and life-long friend. Her daughter is 19, at Art College now. Just the other day she came to her Mum telling her how fed up she feels, how down and depressed. She feels that her whole life so far has been about exams, about tests, worrying about them, feeling ill about them. She's almost at the point of wanting to leave college because of the sheer volume of work involved and the pressure put on them to achieve, achieve, achieve. Her Mother has complained about the volume of work, which is gross. She was told by the college that other parents had complained too, and they realise there IS a huge amount to get through, but....this is the syllabus that's they do. And that was that. There was NO concern shown for horrendously stressed out kids, whatsoever. Her Mum is a a highly intellignet woman. A former Staff Nurse. A woman who strives for the best for her children. Her daughter went to a 'good school' in a nice area, and she goes to a 'good' college too, but it matters not where your child goes, the stress is the same... ALL that matters to the schools, the colleges and the Universities are the RESULTS. The souls of their pupils, their life-long outlook, their sense of achievement as human beings, is NOT measured in kindness, compassion and empathy, or on intelligence on so many different levels, be that a budding scientist, builder, dancer, plumber, brain surgeon, cleaner, politician... ALL that is cared about is ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS and an Academic Outlook, when.....there is SO much more than this stilted, narrow view of 'Achievement' Without great cleaners we have hospitals filled with MRSA, causing people to die. Therefore, it seems to my dull brain that the Cleaner is of EQUAL importance to the Brain Surgeon. When we have an Academic Institution that can recognise that simple fact...and a workforce where ALL people are paid a decent wage for a job well done, regardless of that job, then we will have a fairer world. If children are made to feel there is NOTHING out there beyond a sea of examinations, some of them will not want to live. I swotted up for a fortnight before my GCSEs, there was no point in doing so before that, as my brain does not retain facts and figures, other than those which fascinate me. I discard uselss, boring information immediately, always have done, always will do. I wrote 'I give up!' over my Maths GCSE paper because I was fed up with stupid questions about what rate a bath would empty at. I had no interest in it...nor any of the other stupid questions they asked. I thought the folks who wrote those questions, marked them, and taught the answers must have needed their heads looking at. However, I can add up, subtract, divide and multiply basic numbers, the one we use for living....faster than a calculator, faster than a modern till. Why? Because I learnt my Times Tables as songs, so 'the words' are always there..the building blocks for all else. There was no pressure put on me to 'achieve achieve', nor on my friends either. Teachers did not have to teach by 'result', schools were not judged on League Tables, pupils were not judged on their exams alone, neither were we that interested in the results of other folks. IF I'd been made to take a thousand subjects, and told that if I didn't my life would be in ruins, I'd have simply walked away from it all...or ended up so depressed that life would have held no magic sparkles, as it went on to do for me. Richard, the woman who serves you in Boots, who brings your prescription to you from the Pharmacist, is as important as the Doctor who wrote the prescription for you. They are ALL a part of the chain in looking after you. The person who's cleaned the toilet in the pub, shop, hospital or restaurant you may visit from time to time, is JUST as important as the friends you've gone there to be with, the specialist who may treat you, or the girl who serves you in the supermarket. The Lackey is AS important as The Lawyer, Richard. The difference between you and I is that I have had an education of life which has taught me far more than academic books will ever do. It has taught me to see everyone in the same light, backed up by my dear Dad's great outlook of all being equal... We are each here for a seperate purpose. No purpose is greater than any other. All should be respected. All should be paid a decent wage. ALL children should be allowed to be who they are born to be, rather than moulded, through dictatorial views, into the person a warped society says they must be. Some refuse to step into the mould, seeing it so full of wreaking mould that death seems a better option. If even ONE child feels that suicide is better than the education system they feel so trapped within, then it just shows how terribly wrong that system has become. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Folkiedave Date: 03 May 11 - 04:14 AM That is not what he said Lizzie. I did my "O" and "A" levels a long time ago but I do remember the pressure. I don't remember anyone committing suicide. We had just as much pressure to become academic as anyone nowadays I reckon. We started it at primary school with the most iniquitous examination that ever existed and I am talking about the 11+. And once again - do you have your daughter's permission to discuss her life at the age of 15 like you have? And since it seems you are happy to blame the education system for all the ills in today's society - what role do you think poor parenting plays? But do explain why suicide figures are going down when pressure (according to you)is going up? Please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 May 11 - 05:02 AM Lizzie, you have some sort of vendetta against education. Education is useful and it is good for people. People need to have structured learning to be able to organise their lives, and to compete with others who have taken advantage of structured learning. You would have to change our society before it became in any way possible to avoid people needing to learn things in a systematic way - and I don't count (and nor does our society) saying "ahh, pretty trees, fluffy squirrel". Watch the fluffy little squirrel in attack mode on smaller mammals. It is simply irrational to try to cop out of education, and you harm those whom you encourage to abandon it. And the misuse of words such as "proof" simply undermines any rational argument you were trying to make. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 05:32 AM No, I have NO vendetta against learning. I believe totally in lifelong learning, it is what we are designed, as a species, to do from the moment we are born. Education however, is turning that natural instinct off. I do have deep concerns over this 'thing' called 'The Education SYSTEM' because it's doing much damage...and that fact IS now being recognised by some of those within that system, Richard, many who have had a far better 'academic' education than I. You should therefore, surely, respect what they say, and agree with it? As for 'changing our society', heck, that's the best idea you've come up with so far! :0) Yes, that is EXACTLY it. That is why people such as Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto are trying so hard to get people to see a different way, to see the terrible pitfalls of the present way. Watch Ken's 'Re-Thinking Education' video. It is brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I used 'proof' in the most correct, honest and sincere context of the word, actually. Figures, statistics, can all be altered to suit the need of the folks promoting those figures. They are False Proof and mean nothing to me. What I gave you there, in that video, is the utmost True Proof, that of the death of a young Indian student, who killed himself due to the insanity of exam pressures. It also contains the true and honest words of people who have come together to say that many things are desperately wrong in a system where young people prefer death to a life of being examined, tested, and having 'PASS' or 'FAIL' stamped on ther souls for life. Watch that video too, Richard, it is absolute proof of what I am saying. It is so sad too, so desperately sad. As to 'pretty trees and squirrels', if only MORE people noticed our planet and her other species, respected it all, then we may not be in the insane mess this world is now in. The Squirrel, even at his most vicious, is still preferable to The Banker, for the squirrel kills only one of his enemies at a time, fighting to keep himself alive. The Banker, who has had an academic education all his life and who has been taught that 'success is all' kills and injures thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands with his ruthless soul which is filled only with examination passes and little else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 05:48 AM "I did my "O" and "A" levels a long time ago but I do remember the pressure. I don't remember anyone committing suicide. We had just as much pressure to become academic as anyone nowadays I reckon. We started it at primary school with the most iniquitous examination that ever existed and I am talking about the 11+." I sat my 11+. I passed it too. I was, at no time, put under any pressure, by my primary school or by my parents. I chose to go to the same school as my brother did, because I loved my brother and wanted to be where he was. My parents too felt that us being together meant far more than me going to the local grammar school. It was also a school just round the corner from where I lived, so most lunch-times I'd walk home and have dinner with Mum which was great because it also took me out of a place I grew to hate. Just after I started the old headmaster died and a new headmistress took over. She was hopeless and the school went down, down, deeper and down...but I still preferred to be where my brother was. I had no pressure from my secondary school over my GCEs and I got so bored rigid doing my A Levels that I decided to leave and go out to work, which was the best decision I ever made. "....And once again - do you have your daughter's permission to discuss her life at the age of 15 like you have?.." Well, well, the last person who asked me that was a truly vicious and venomous 'Guest' who only posted deeply personal things to me and about me, in the 'Re-Thinking Education' thread, now removed entirely. Perhaps you have forgotten which name you are posting under as you have stated 'once AGAIN'......Oops! Yes, my daughter knows I've talked about her situation at school. She does not mind. I would hope you ask the same question of 'ruth archer' who also discusses her daughter from time to time, otherwise, folks might think you have a personal, one-sided problem with me. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Folkiedave Date: 03 May 11 - 06:16 AM The "once again" referred to you posting details of your daughter "once again". And in this post: Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM Date: 03 May 11 - 04:02 AM you refer to someone else's daughter and her private life. Of course you will have both the mother and the daughter's permission. I only post under my own name - occasionally under guest. If under guest I tend to correct it if I notice. And here it is Lizzie. If you are reading this Ruth Archer - do you have your daughter's permission to talk about her school life? There Lizzie, confirming I do not have a problem with you at all. I have never met you so how could I? I have a problem with some of the things you post. Perhaps the most important of these is how, every so often you leave Mudcat for ever, only to return again a few days or weeks later. And some things you post I don't have a problem with. I do my best to ignore you whenever I can. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 06:32 AM And then, of course, there are the teenage suicides which happen due to the horrific 24/7 bullying which now goes on. That also is a huge problem. President and Mrs. Obama has made a video about it, so big is the problem becoming in the USA. It is also a major problem over here. Just yesterday evening, on a simple trip to my local shop I got talking to the lady serving me. She asked if I wanted the school vouchers that Tescos give to folks. I told her 'no thanks' as I'd 'given up' school a very long time ago...and I told her why. She then told me about her son, now in Year 7, whom she's already desperately worried about, as he's been bullied for years. The shop was quiet, so we had quite a natter about it. I told her to keep a very close eye on him and if he showed signs of deep unhappiness, no longer being able to cope, she should seek help from the school, or, if all else fails, take him out and home educate him....for it is far better to do that than mourn the loss of your child later, facing a life-time of 'If only I'd.....' And again, with my friend I mentioned above, her son has Aspergers and ADHD. At 10 years old they found him on the outside of his bedroom windowsill threatening to throw himself off. He was being bullied beyond endurance at the time, because of his differences. She rang me in panic, then the next day she took him out of school. She tried every single local school going, but none of them offered her any hope of anything different for her son. She was very lucky as her father-in-law is very wealthy, so he went on to be educated in a school especially for children with Aspergers, Dyslexia, ADHD...There, he's blossomed. He got some GCSEs and is presently doing a couple of A Levels. He also now has a great job in Waitrose, which he adores. He's a happy and contented lad who's being given support and encouragement. He wasn't put under tremendous pressure with exams, didn't take that many, some of the students are under no pressure to take any at all if they prefer not to. But that headmaster understands his children. He won't put up with crap from them, but he will support them in every way, do his utmost to help them in every way, along with parental help too. He's turned out a good lad who believes in himself and can see a future for himself. He got there because of a school which 'thinks differently' because it understands there are different brains who learn different things, in different ways. He also got there because he has a mother who loves him dearly and who has refused to give up on him. Parents? Yes, of course parents play an important part. Sadly, because of years of craziness in the education system though, there are now so many folks with 'FAILED' stamped on their foreheads that they barely know how to look after themselves, let alone their children, so deep is the loss of hope inside them. Nurturing is hugely important for children, both by parents and by teachers. A truly gifted teacher can nurture a battered and hopeless child, give them hope, no matter what their home-life may be..They can turn them around, but only if they are allowed to, not held down, or held back, by a System now so profoundly controlling that no-one has the air barely even to breathe any longer. The System is crap. It's been crap for decades. It's getting worse all the time. There IS hope out there though, through the voices of folks such as Ken Robinson and those who've heard him talk, take his values away with them and try to turn The System around. Gonna be tough though, because those who love to control have been IN control for so, so long. They are NOT going to relinquish that control without a fight (as can be seen in here) and whilst the fight goes on, other children are busy thinking about death................... Dave, I do not put the names of the folks concerned down. Therefore only I know who I am talking about. Many people talk about the experiences of others on here, on many other forums. Yet you do not ask them about 'permission'. It is so very odd the way you constantly do so with me. Good to see you finally asking 'Ruth' the same question. Sad though that I had to ask you to do so in the first place. You've been rumbled. Get over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 06:39 AM Oh, and just to add to that story about the Tesco's lady...She also told me that some of the kids bullying her son have set up a Facebook page about him, where they go to say nasty things about him. Of course, they leave the page open so he can see it. It's distressing him greatly. I have another friend to whom this happened, or rather, it happened to her teenage daughter. This time though it was Myspace. They started a page about her, wrote the most horrific lies about her, so hurtful...telling her to kill herself as she was so hated, that kind of stuff. Her mother acted fast and called in the police. They traced it, via Myspace...and the page was removed, the boy who'd made it left in no doubt that if he ever did it again he'd be arrested. The police also went into the school concerned to talk to young people about internet bullying. Of course, there are many adults who also use the internet for bullying, or for discussing other people in a very negative way. I myself have been discussed thus on your page, I believe 'folkiedave'. I wrote to one of your 'friends' about it, as your page is closed to the general public. (I'd been sent the details by a friend)....I told her how it distressed me, how I do not behave in the same way to you. She wrote back "Get real!" Nice, huh? So, do not patronise me, nor pick on me any longer, for you've been rumbled by many folks on here. By all means ask whatever you so choose of others, but share it out equally, rather than ONLY me. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 03 May 11 - 06:58 AM .......Is it safe to come out now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Folkiedave Date: 03 May 11 - 07:23 AM Weren't you the woman who told me "to stick a turnip up my arse? Lizzie stop playing the victim. I know it is what you do - more and more people notice. Now - isn't it time you flounced off from Mudcat promising never to come back? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 07:40 AM I apologise to all turnips. Unreservedly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,lurcio Date: 03 May 11 - 08:24 AM 'and not a single bloody teacher seems to have the guts to stand up and say "Shit! ENOUGH!"' This is a blatant untruth. Yet any defence will, in all likelyhood, be seen as an attack on Liz herself. I have said 'enough' on many occasions. Some of my colleagues have lost their jobs because of their stance. There is lots of dirt thrown our way yet we dare not reply. A recent survey has shown that one in ten head teachers has been physically assaulted. By a parent. Yet we still do it because we love the job. Only to be told we have no guts. There are some things that sicken me. L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 11:05 AM Sorry, but if teachers stood together, you could change things overnight. If you really ARE a teacher, then I'm sure you'll know the headteachers HAVE managed to think about standing together.........for their pensions. For their pensions????? Tell me, why not their pupils??????? ALL you have to do is refuse to sit exams. Refuse to have anything to do with them. Refuse to set masses of homework, or coursework... Refuse, refuse and thrice refuse. What do you think will happen? Do you seriously think that ALL of you will lose your jobs, en masse? Of course you wouldn't. 'They' couldn't run the schools without you. YOU are the cogs which turn The Wheel. The Wheel is turning faster and faster, damaging more and more children. There is now an entire industry built around the Stress of Education, from how to get Little Jimmy through his SATs Tests, to his 'A' Levels and Beyond. Then there are the Educational Psychologists, (which never existed in my day, because they were not needed) who give counselling to troubled children, unable to cope with the pressures of school. There are teachers who'll give your children extra tuition, for a large fee...and of course, stressed out parents are terrified that Little Jimmy won't pass his bloody exams, so they sign him up for more 'education', take even more of his life away.... Marriages break up under the stress of getting the kids through their exams, houses get re-mortgaged, debts begin to build up....parents get angry, take it out on teachers, other parents can't cope with anything, because they've been through this sick system themselves and all they have is a blind hatred of ALL teachers, so they go in there, threaten them with god knows what, anything to keep the kids happy, because they can't cope with stressed out kids, didn't even want them in the first place... There are, no doubt, counsellors for stressed out teachers, some of whom, I'm sure, also take their own lives. I had a friend who was a teacher. Hanged himself. Went into the village shop as normal that morning to get a few bits...then walked up the hill to the moors, threw the rope around one of the trees in a small copse and tied himself to the end of it...His wife was a teacher, his daughter is now a teacher. His son, I've no idea what he's doing these days, but he's OK, from what I've heard. They went through hell. It wasn't just his job, other factors too, but his job had it's part to play in it all. I've said before...I wonder how many politicians and educational decision makers have a finger in the Education Pie themselves, making loadsa money from The Wheel of Fortune which has sapped the backbone of Common Sense from most people. Still, at least The Wheel is churning out folks who toe the line, who don't question, who don't look or think too deeply and who truly believe The System is the best in the world, that there are no problems within it whatoever.... And The Wheel keeps on turning... Big Wheel keeps on turnin'...and The School of Proud Mary keeps on Burnin'..... 'And nobody seems to care, nobody seems to ask why...' to paraphrase George Carlin. Hey, let's get some examinations in the words of George Carlin going and THEN, THEN I might just get behind you, because that man spoke more common sense, more truth, than a thousand million teachers put together! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,lucio Date: 03 May 11 - 11:41 AM I am a teacher and a head of department. I have been in education for over 30 years. Why attempt to cast doubt on that unless to intimate that I am not only a coward but also a liar? I would do neither to you, Liz. Lots of other things maybe but neither of those. Anyhow, I have not refused to set classwork, homework or exams because I, and the vast majority of my colleagues, happen to believe that they are all part of a good, balanced education. They do not suit everyone admittedly but for MOST students things are pretty good as they are. Tell me, Liz, why most of my students should conform to YOUR views rather than those of thousands who are already doing a good job despite the difficulties that are put in our way by ill-informed parents. Little true story here. I once had a student, 15 year old male, who's parents were such an embarrasment to him at open evenings that he eventualy attempted suicide rather than face another with his loudmouthed father and overbearing mother. Luckily he lived and, with help, went on to gain a first in chemistry at Cambridge. How come this type of pressure and bullying seems to be swept under the carpet? L |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,The friend who told you to get real, Lizzie Date: 03 May 11 - 12:17 PM Page after page of whining self-pity. Lizzie, a sense of proportion, particularly about yourself, would make you much happier. Now I'm going to tell you something. If you want to know about suicide attempts in under 18's, ask someone who tried and failed only because they didn't know how. Ask me. Don't use this subject to tell us how sensitive, caring etc you are. Don't use us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 11 - 12:37 PM Personal abuse is supposed to be out of order on the Mudcat. Maybe it's time that rule was applied in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: SINSULL Date: 03 May 11 - 12:51 PM Jim, Thank you for attempting to keep the thread on track. From what I have read, the doctors are attempting to find physical characteristics that might be linked to the lack of oxygen flowing to the brains of suicide prone teenagers. Recently I saw a study relating the size of a man's penis to the difference in length between his index and ring finger. Apparently, finger relationships are indicators of a number of traits. So for example if young adults with this tendency all produced baby teeth at fourteen weeks three days - maybe that is something that could be watched. Pulled that out of the blue but you get the idea. Shocking isn't it that an Art College cares about nothing but academics...perhaps that young woman should be home schooled where no pressure will be put on her to learn art or anything else. She will be happy and the school can function as it is meant to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 03 May 11 - 01:03 PM With respect Mr McGrath... Lizzie delights in pushing all the buttons. My partner was a teacher, and was sacked for (allegedgly) abusing a child. He,(at age of 8 actually,) was swearing, kicking other children, spitting etc, even tried to smash a window by throwing a chair. My partners crime? (Class teacher at the time) was to pick him up and remove him from the class. No damage done.... Sentence?....suspension, followed a year and a half later by Dismissal.....Brilliant. End of career. The parents re-action when informed of the incident...."He's a little shit and deserves all he gets" They never made a complaint Mmmmm High class parenting going on there. So, Mr McGrath. This is not a personal vendetta against Lizzie. But, sometimes there is more than one side to a story. Lizzie is so black and white with he attitudes, and doesn't realise the damage she can do with her posts on here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,lurcio Date: 03 May 11 - 01:18 PM I am so sorry, SINSULL. It is not my intention to take over your important and sensitive issue. But when it becomes an excuse to besmirch a noble and caring profession I can only do my best to proffer an alternate view. I will do my best to only supply a minimal defence but I do suggest you consider the cause of the thread highjack. L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Ruth Archer Date: 03 May 11 - 02:38 PM Sorry I've not replied before - that whole working and having a life thing. You know. "If you are reading this Ruth Archer - do you have your daughter's permission to talk about her school life?" Umm, yes - because I do not reveal anything she might find hurtful or embarrassing. In fact, she posted here herself for a little while, talking about her own experiences of school...until one particular member hounded her off Mudcat with a particularly nasty campaign that was remarked upon by many at the time. This Mudcatter even accused her of not being who she said she was - she actually spoke to another member on the phone to assert her identity and to confirm that her posts were all her own work, as it were - but even then the Mudcat member in question continued to be bitchy (including refusing to use her Mudcat name to address her in the way that she requested) and very nasty and hounded her until she decided to leave Mudcat. Which is a shame, as she is an enthusiastic attender of folk gigs and festivals, and probably had a lot more to contribute about music than the member in question, who seems to spend the majority of her time glued to her computer keyboard. "I told her how it distressed me, how I do not behave in the same way to you." Funny - a friend of mine told me recently how you were slagging me off on your facebook, Lizzie, telling some pretty defamatory distortions and untruths. Fancy that. The "victim" is actually a bit of a bully. Well well well well well well well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Date: 03 May 11 - 03:01 PM "...Page after page of whining self-pity. Lizzie, a sense of proportion, particularly about yourself, would make you much happier...." Nope, if you'd read most of my posts, you'd see they're about other people, actually. People I know who have struggled, or are struggling at the moment..... Ralph, what happened to your wife is nothing to do with me. IF you have been 'taking it out on me' for so very long because of what happened to your wife, I'd ask you to now leave it alone. I have ALWAYS backed brilliant teachers, said over and again that I have the utmost respect for them, but that always goes unmentioned in your posts and those of others. I have no respect for bad teachers though, because they do untold damage, much of which can last for very many years. My children, as well you know, were put next to the kind of children your partner lost her job over, in the hope some of their calm quietness would rub off on the troubled kids. It never did, it just distressed my children even more. You know that, so why do you make out that I have no idea what goes on in schools? It's always puzzled me. This thread is about the distressing matter of teenage suicide. I'm saying that *part* of the reasons some young people are killing themselves is to do with the insanity caused by examination stress and by bullying also. Interestingly, not a single person has commented on that video I put on, the one telling the story of the young 15 year old lad who killed himself due to exam pressure..and the THIRTY other young students who also commiteed suicide that month alone in India. Not a single word has been spoken. Neither has anyone commented on the way children bully each other senseless, on the internet, on their mobile phones..and how they film children being half kicked to death, putting it on Youtube, or forwarding it to their mates....ALL these things contribute to the shocking fact that so many young people are choosing death over life. Comment on those FACTS, not on me. I am NOT the one droning on and on about me, it is you folks...all the usual suspects. Leave it alone and comment on some of the things I've mentioned which are exactly to do with what this thread is about. Oh, and Ralph, for you information, my friend who committed suicide, the teacher I spoke of earlier, was accused by a young female student of improper conduct. This had NOT happened, but the damage was caused to his soul...She used to phone him up at home, I've no idea how she got the number, but she did. Obviously, he reported it, but mud sticks, as well you know. That, and other factors in his life, took their toll. I'm sorry for what happened to your partner, but it's not my fault. Perhaps you need to take a step back and see that. Also read the part where I talk about teachers needing counsellors. In the other thread, now closed down, of course, because that's what tends to happen on any education thread or any thread about young people..I also put in a video about the terrible stress and depression experienced by teachers, but again, no-one mentioned that either. So much is going wrong in our society. It's no good though pretending 'it's always been this way', because it hasn't. What folks need to do is admit to this major problem, then try to sort out what it is that's causing it. And yes, it IS 'a personal vendetta' Ralph, by a few people, always has been, as well you know, because as I've mentioned above, I DO see both sides of the story, put links in to that effect too, but all of that is completely overlooked in all this PV stuff that goes on. And no, I don't 'delight' at all. I do however get really pissed off when ostriches stick their heads down so far into the sand, when all of this pain is going on. It is NOT delight, but frustration. As I said so many times, I know that many folks on here are teachers, and if just ONE of them thinks differently, does something differently, because of any of the links I put in, or any of the experiences I write about which have happened to other folks, then that is just fine by me. It has nothing to do with you Ralph at all, nor the other folks who follow me round, merely that I have experienced, first-hand, the pain and trauma that is caused by what is going on inside our education system today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 03:26 PM "Funny - a friend of mine told me recently how you were slagging me off on your facebook, Lizzie, telling some pretty defamatory distortions and untruths. Fancy that. The "victim" is actually a bit of a bully. Well well well well well well well. " Sorry, Joan, but there are folks on here who are 'friends' of mine on FB. They will know that I write nothing about you or anyone else on my page. My page is also open for all to see. I have nothing to hide. Perhaps you'd care to copy and paste what your 'friend' sent you, then put it on here? Perhaps I am now SO old that I've forgotten what I'm 'alleged' to have said? I have what was said about me, as I was sent it, so I'm presuming you must have been sent what you allege I've said about you. That is NOT what my page is about. There is no gossip or tittle tattle on there. I use my page mostly to put interesting videos on. I don't use it as a personal page to natter or chatter much at all. I do have one story on there in my 'notes' section...the story of the BBC F&A board, written very tongue in cheek, by an old faery.... I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but my FB page is mine. It's not about you or anyone else here. Oh, I did however, a long while back now, put the video you made about John Jones and his walk, on there, as I thought it was very good and I loved that song of his. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 03 May 11 - 03:27 PM And now, back to what this thread is about, if possible. Please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 May 11 - 03:54 PM Education and learning are not the same thing. Education and bullying are not the same thing. Education is useful - if you bother to apply yourself. Would you rather have a doctor who knew the fact about medicine and health - or one who knew squirrels were pretty? Would you rather have a lawyer who knew the law - or one who knew squirrels were pretty? Would you rather have a mechanic who knew about cars - or one who knew squirrels were pretty? Or plumbers, or central heating engineers, or electricians, or builders who understood stresses in roof trusses? I sympathise with handicap or disadvantage (and I want to alleviate associated suffering and assist in proper compensation) but wilful stupidity and ignorance are simply infuriating. If your children were or had special needs Lizzie, they should have received apt treatment and education. Taking them home to coddle did not help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 03 May 11 - 04:40 PM OK Lizzie. Point 1. I'm not married. I was referring to my partner. Point 2. My partner was sacked after 18 months suspension. Her offence. Picking up a disruptive and abusive child, to placate a difficult situation. (The headmistress didn't help much) Point 3. Suicide? Tried it once....didn't work. Please can you desist from your scattergun approach in your posts. There are some very vulnerable people out here (and I am one) that find your postings, not only hurtful, but intensely offensive. The Web is a wonderful place, if you use it correctly. Mudcat is a wonderful place, if you use it correctly. If you can't be peaceful, please leave. (As you have said that you were going to do on many previous occasions) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Jim Dixon Date: 03 May 11 - 04:55 PM Please, everyone, listen: Some of you have evidently have a previous history of mutual hatred and abuse. Please let it go. I don't want to hear about it. Your bringing it into this thread just spoils the thread for me. The only legitmate way to oppose a bad idea is by supporting a better idea. Attacking the person who advocates the bad idea is not only illogical, it is obnoxious and disrespectful—not only to the person who is attacked but to everyone who seriously wants to discuss the issue at hand. (Like me, for instance.) A personal attack is still a personal attack even if everything you say is true. If you aren't sure whether you are guilty of committing a personal attack, ask yourself this: Did you mention another Mudcatter by name? Did you say something unfavorable about that person? It may be too late to salvage this thread. Maybe everyone who wanted to discuss teenage suicide has already been driven away. I'll wait and see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 11 - 05:01 PM The only legitimate way to oppose a bad idea is by supporting a better idea. Precisely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 May 11 - 05:39 PM I oppose a bad idea - namely "Don't bother to get an education, it's too much like hard work". I support a better idea - namely "get an education: it's useful". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Suicide From: GUEST,lurcio Date: 03 May 11 - 07:33 PM I know that I am persona non grata here but may I suggest that the thread goes back to SINSULL's initial discussion about teenage suicide? It is NOT about education, bullying or stupid vendettas. Ok? Liz? Ruth? Dave? Ta. L.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |