BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:31 PM

Hi Michael

I enjoyed that !!!!

Regards

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:13 PM

Well, Bonzo; I guess with your name that's what you need...

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 11 - 01:57 PM

We are booked with Monarch for our flight to Alicante in September, extra legroom seats already booked - almost Club Europe with BA!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 11 - 06:59 AM

That is the implication of what you said, although I accept it may not be what you meant. However if declaring it "claptrap" keeps you happy, I don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 11 - 06:39 AM

"So the only thing of relevance is the impact it has on you? There are ethical investment funds that try to maximise returns but subject to only investing in companies the meet well defined ethical constraints. Am I right in assuming you don't think of that?"

Claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 17 May 11 - 05:29 AM

By 'eck, ferret down me old trousers and go to the foot of our stairs.

Necessity is a defence? Luckily, I am, as you point out, not a lawyer. If I were, I might point out the difference between defence and mitigation. You cannot defend law breaking, only point out the circumstances that led to the offence to affect sentencing. Culpability is a bit more straight forward; is there evidence of the breach? (As a regulator, I am constantly reminded of this.)

I doubt many judges or real lawyers would ponder mitigation based on "he is richer than me." One of the fine points of UK law is that it is equal for all in theory. (Reality may be different at times, but you can only design a system, not the results of your design.)

Oh bugger, you've got me being all serious now.. Tell you what, instead of getting all hot & bothered, I'll search on M'unlearned friend's posts for a while. Give me a good chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:07 PM

I expect the best return available on my pension fund - just how companies work to achieve that is of no concern.

So the only thing of relevance is the impact it has on you? There are ethical investment funds that try to maximise returns but subject to only investing in companies the meet well defined ethical constraints. Am I right in assuming you don't think of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:00 PM

The problem in the long term Bonzo, is that, if the company goes downhill as a result of pandering to the shareholders, then your pension fund loses out. So how companies function should be a concern to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:56 PM

"when the shareholders are taken into consideration over and above such things as staff training and development, investment in R&D, etc., then there's trouble."

I expect the best return available on my pension fund - just how companies work to achieve that is of no concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:32 PM

Dear Fluids

"Necessity" and "compulsion" have been defences to some things for quite a long time. Good job you're not a lawyer, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:57 AM

Good lord - how these right-wing/leftwing arguments get polarised so quickly and get so black and white in such a short time. There are whole shades of grey here.

BA staff are paid significantly more than airlines such as Ryanair and Easyjet. BA flights are significantly dearer than airlines such as Ryanair and Easyjet. The dilemma for BA is how to compete with these cheaper airlines. The dilemma for BA staff is how to accept cut backs in a working life to which they have grown accustomed.

In a sensible employment culture, management sits down with staff and unions and thrashes such problems out with constructive dialogue - but it never happens, does it? The real question for employers and employees is 'We're all potentially in the shit - so how do we collectively deal with the problem? How can we change practices, policies and work systems so that we can all survive?'

What generally happens is that the management work out their strategy with little or no consultation with the workforce or the union, and then wonder why conflict arises. They forget that the workforce can contribute to strategy. The workforce, for their part and when presented with the strategy, turn a blind eye to the financial problems of the company and refuse to accept that anything should change.

No always the case, but a common enough scenario in British industrial relations, and a scenario which immediately gets translated into right- and left-wing stances.

The joker in the pack - and one which, in its worst manifestation paralyses financial concerns - is the shareholders. When business is conducted purely with the interests of the shareholders' dividends in mind, then trouble often ensues. This doesn't mean that shareholders aren't entitled to dividends but, when the shareholders are taken into consideration over and above such things as staff training and development, investment in R&D, etc., then there's trouble.

European-based businesses are usually much better at realising the long-term benefits of investments which are not just profit-based. We don't seem to have learned that lesson even now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:31 AM

"It seems pretty obvious to me that the rich taking from the poor is selfish, while the poor taking from the rich is less so."

Have you really got nothing else to think about?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 May 11 - 09:12 AM

Oh yeah? Are you sure that poor taking from the rich is better than rich taking from the poor? Good job you didn't take silk isn't it?

So if a wretched poor bugger breaks in to steal my goods on order to score later, that's ok cos I am richer than him. Suppose I'd better not ask you to represent me when I snap his leg off and make him ask for it back.

You asked if I condone poor losers more than rich losers or words to that effect. Well if BA can't get custom because punters cant trust them to deliver when strikes are looming, they go bust and everybody loses their jobs. Doesn't need an opinion of rich versus poor to see that. It just shows you need commerce to flourish in order to be able to afford higher standards of living.

Anyway, I repeat in case if still hasn't sunk in. BA staff were fighting for perks, not living wages or conditions. If they went on strike, the chances of getting such perks diminishes as BA will have less money due to falling custom. That is nothin to do with rich, poor, Adam Smith or Karl bloody Marx. It is cosmumerism and that my most unlearned of friends is what drives economies. Rightly or wrongly

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:20 AM

Capital and Labour are a bit like an old married couple who no longer see eye to eye, and are forced to compromise their real desires in order to preserve the relationship.

For the most part, they get by, and although not blissfully happy, are able to derive a measure of comfort from what they have.

Then a smart arsed friend of one or the other pokes his nose in, disturbing the delicate balance, and all of a sudden they are at war.

End result ? Nobody wins, the relationship crumbles and now they have nothing at all.

In all negotiations there is a balance point at which each side gets the maximum possible without wrecking the whole. Trade Unions, IMHO, have no interest in finding that balance, and in playing the winner takes all game, have been instrumental in destroying manufacturing, mining and transport in this country.

They forced the cost of labour upward until we can no longer afford to make the goods, let alone compete to export them, and no amount of anti capitalist rhetoric is going to change that.

The right to strike was a very important brake on employers ability to underpay and mistreat workers, and it disgust me to see it used for the frivolous purpose of protecting perks unavailable to the majority of workers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:12 AM

Richard: Do you mean like Robin Hood or by state nationlisation? ~~ which was tried but not that successfully, regrettably ~ though faced with the dog's·brekkie which our railways are I find self longing for the halcyon[ish] days of BR; but as one old enough to recall the old days of LMS LNER GWR SR, which worked fine in their time till those doctrinaire upper-class boobies Attlee and Cripps happened along to upset every applecart in sight...

But you are still not really defining terms adequately, I feel.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:08 AM

It was "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes"

I am not a German speaker myself but I understand the text is more literally translated as the specific (opium) rather than the generic (opiate).

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:57 AM

It seems pretty obvious to me that the rich taking from the poor is selfish, while the poor taking from the rich is less so.

By the way, wasn't it "opiate" not "opium" of the masses?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:41 AM

Fair enough, Richard. Don't we all! But such an assertion without specific definition is another example of the 'question-begging' to which, as I have remarked more than once on other threads, you seem to me to be prone.

I had a Higher Schools history teacher at school who used to say that, properly speaking, every essay should begin with Adam & Eve; and I am aware that my feeling that all argument should begin with our definitions of the terms used involves something of the same sort of paradox. But use of emotive terms like "selfishness", when we all know that labour accuses capitalism of 'selfishness' while capitalists level the same accusation at the TU movement, won't get us any further forward until we either qualify our usage of such terms, or find other, more specific ones with which to engage.

Seriously now, Richard, would you not accept such a ground-clearing exercise as essential if discussion is to go anywhere?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:37 AM

Nothing wrong with quotes as long as

(A) you are sure the recipient will understand them the same way as you intend them. You can be sure that a quotation from Adam Smith or Karl Marx will be percieved differently by different listeners; that is true whatever the source. If I quote Shakepeare I can be thought erudite or a pretentious fool!
(B) following on from (a) it is best if you know the context of the quote. A lot of people who quote Marx 'opium of the people' haven't read the paragraphs before or after the famous phrase so have no idea if it really means what they think it does.
(C) understand that this is the logical fallacy known as "appeallinhg to authority". That's not to say it is necessarily untrue but it forms no part of logic.


We have drifted some distance from BA strikes and the capitalists involved. Apologies for that, but there is still a connection of sorts. There is merit if all sides present their arguments as they believe them, without relying on third parties. [Hmmm, sounds like I am in "pretentious fool" mode]

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:16 AM

MtheGM - I disapprove of selfishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:12 AM

Dear Fluids: should the workers lose more so the rich can stay rich?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:05 AM

DMcG ~~ agreed as to Briand's motivation in making the 'not a socialist at 20 no ♥' remark. But many quotes made for a specific occasion have a wider resonance, which is what keeps them in the common repertoire of what Reader's Digest used to call "Quotable Quotes". Surely this is one such?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:23 PM

Ah, but Briand was a politician justifying his own about-face. It is hardly the disinterested statement of a philosopher who has dedicated his life to seeking the moral way to live.

As he was mainly 'a player' in Europe at a time barely studied in schools except for its impact on the onset of the second war, I suspect most people's knowledge of him is limited to that one quote. I freely admit my own is far from extensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:10 PM

-----Mind you it's a pity because in a way, however misguided and weird, you say these things because you care about others so its difficult to actually dismiss you I suppose.-----

Actually, S Willie, not so; that is just his ploy. Like most lefties, he loves mankind in theory; it's just actual people he doesn't care for: esp the cheeky, awkward ones who won't accept those unthought-thru parroted doctrines on his mere say-so.

They're all like that: Bridge; leveller; the lot of them. Just listen to them go on.

As Aristide Briand so memorably remarked... Only they have got stuck at 20.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:31 PM

Easy to tell right from wrong m'unlearned friend.

Most on this this thread are right and you are usually wrong b

Mind you it's a pity because in a way, however misguided and weird, you say these things because you care about others so its difficult to actually dismiss you I suppose.

I am a capitalist and having just looked at a photo of my dad, we look similar and everybody reckons we sound similar so I doubt I am a bastard really. Sorry but I just can't be a bastard after all.

The cabin crew were seeing perks being diminished and yes, that's sad for them. Although any talk of oppressed workers is tosh as this is about perks. Not working conditions and not pay but upgrades and free flights.

If they went on strike the people, the masses, the great unwashed, the brothers and sisters in solidarity etc would book with an airline that they can trust and the minister would be seen to be speaking sense.

I don't have shares in BA but if I did I would have been thinking hard about selling them before this agreement. As it is, Virgin are taking me to New York next week because as a consumer I could trust them as they weren't going to be dinosaurs.

The difference between you and I is that I have been on strike and see the stupidity of if in this day and age. You however are the worst kind of armchair socialist. You dont even understand what you seem to carry a cross for.

Mind, conveyencing is so cut throat I thought you would understand about losing business if you can't be trusted to deliver.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:51 PM

I have one foot in the grave. My concern is the difference between right and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:09 PM

I have a holiday flight with BA in three weeks so I'm certainly glad it is resolved. That doesn't affect whether the strike was or was not justified

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:52 AM

Can't you lot just be happy that an agreement has been reached, for christ sake. You sound like that bloke from one foot in the grave, rather than grown up sensible people. It's always the bloody same.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:31 AM


Interesting that during a chat I had with BA cabin crew on our return flight from BA, they all said that they were more than happy with their contracts.
Big corporations all use "secret shoppers" to check on staff. I wouldn't expect any other answer to a total stranger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:19 AM

I think it is very clear that the BA cabin crew have been well served by their union's efforts to preserve their rights. Is there another meaning?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:33 AM

Interesting that when asked, no BA cabin crew member that I have spoken to would change their job for that of a pursar on easyjet or ryanair!!!

Interesting, perhaps (surely not three exclamations-worth though), but I'd be interested in what you think means in actuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:10 AM

Good God! Bonzo and I agree on something!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:02 AM

It must be remarkably good at shit stirring to convince an overwhelming majority of cabin crew to repeatedly vote for strike action when they are "more than happy with their contracts."

Yes, it doesn't stack up really. Interesting that when asked, no BA cabin crew member that I have spoken to would change their job for that of a pursar on easyjet or ryanair!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 11 - 03:35 PM

Then, of course, there are the cabin crew denied contracts...


It's my "told you so" day. On this thread it's about capitalism per se. The enquiry into the Potters Bar rail crash has squarely laid the blame at the profit motive, which led to cut corners, which led to danger to the public.

Oh, will that really help the NHS lots then?

I told you so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 11 - 02:50 PM

I believe it their shit stirring union that is the problem.

It must be remarkably good at shit stirring to convince an overwhelming majority of cabin crew to repeatedly vote for strike action when they are "more than happy with their contracts."

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 11 - 02:27 PM

""It's a choice.

The poor suffer

or the rich suffer too.


I know which seems more even handed to me.""

And of course the poor will be better off having no jobs to go back to at all?

Hmmm?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 11 - 12:55 PM

My usual apologies for typos!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 11 - 12:51 PM

Maybe, maybe not. That's a small sample and it is rarely wise to criticise your employer to a customer who could be anyone, including a journalist or another employee. Anecdotaling interesting, but not worth too much as evidence either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:47 AM

Interesting that during a chat I had with BA cabin crew on our return flight from BA, they all said that they were more than happy with their contracts.

I believe it their shit stirring union that is the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:46 AM

Touché! DMcG.

;-} right back 2U in ♠♠♠!


~M~

Off down the garden to eat worms!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:25 AM

If airlines don't have adequate and properly paid employees on the planes they shouldn't be allowed to use airports here.

A matter of basic regulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:24 AM

Richard, if you will call Lear's panther a lion you...

And if you want to claim Lewis Carroll's work is by Edward Lear ... *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:16 AM

I guess Richard thinks this started since this new government took office, and forgets all the grief and woe that happened prviously.
So good of them not to settle until there's another party in office, they do it just to please Richard Bridge you know!

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:07 AM

Richard, if you will call Lear's panther a lion you can hardly be surprised that Ringer didn't get the allusion [nor anybody else, I suspect].

Take as your eternal watchword 'ACCURACY MATTERS'* and you won't go far wrong {purely a manner of speaking, this last bit: I bet you will!}.

~M~

* the watchword which got me denounced by a friend on another forum as one whose 'pedantry is legendary'; I think she meant it as a put-down, but I took it as a considerable compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 13 May 11 - 11:00 AM

Good to see they are all seeing the sense in getting back to work.

Let's hope BA gets back to being one of the best airlines in the world.

The world has gone bonkers. All anybody seems to want to do these days is fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:51 AM

Panther.

"I passed by his garden, and marked, with one eye,
How the Owl and the Panther were sharing a pie:
The Panther took pie-crust, and gravy, and meat,
While the Owl had the dish as its share of the treat.
When the pie was all finished, the Owl, as a boon,
Was kindly permitted to pocket the spoon;
While the Panther received knife and fork with a growl,
And concluded the banquet by --- *"

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:39 AM

Flinging about politico/social epithets like "capitalist" is typical behaviour from one who is, as Ringer remarked, "hateful", in the true sense of 'full of hate'. I am constantly amazed by how hateful in that sense are those over that side, who would claim to be notionally motivated by love for mankind but can't tolerate the remotest opposition to their unthought-through doctrines without truculent, resentful abuse.

Typical of a lefty!

Regards just the same, Richard.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Ringer
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:20 AM

No. Your allusion escapes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 11 - 07:43 AM

Typical capitalist Ringer.

Remember how the lion finished the banquet?

Subject: RE: BS: Bastard UK capitalists support BA
From: Ringer
Date: 13 May 11 - 06:28 AM

I had predicted from this thread's title that its creator was the hateful Richard Bridge.

I award myself 10 out of 10.