BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?

Subject: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 02:51 PM

How can there not be a thread asking who in the world was visiting Vancouver that there were riots after the Stanley Cup final? I mean, Canadians are already laid back enough, but *Vancouver* (I mean, British Columbia is staid enough) puts the fast in fastidious) rioting? I just can't see it myself.

I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude.

I mean, come on, it's a GAME for crying out loud. It's not like they even killed our gladiators or anything worth investing that kind of emotion in, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

The initial post is moronic, hateful, Anti-American crap from one of Mudcat's more pathetic bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:10 PM

Whom would you hold responsible, pdq?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

Myrrz, I know nothing of Vancouver's experience this year but by and large it is not Americans who riot after (inter)national games.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

Everything you ever post is Anti-American garbage and racist. You are a hatemonger. Go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:22 PM

I *am* American, and usually far from racist. But that's for a different thread.

I have never heard of Canadians rioting about anything, sports or other. That's why I was so surprised, and started a thread, although apparently on the wrong foot with one reader at least. I thought y'all knew I was American and thus, can (sometimes) get away with dissing the worst of us. But really, I don't think it was the English yobbos this time, or was it? pdq, do you have an answer to the thread even if you don't like it, if you're going to post?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:30 PM

For what it's worth, Mrrzy, I have never thought of you as racist or or a hate-monger or anti-American. Most 'Catters know of your family history- can't speak for pdq's knowledge, of course. He tends to be selective.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:32 PM

"I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude."

Huh? Wha? I think you owe an explanation.... not just to Yanks. I believe you have offended Yanks AND Canucks. Sorry, but that is my take.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: maeve
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:33 PM

The on-the-scene commentary I saw and heard stated clearly that it was a Canadian-led mob behavior and that it was deplored by most people there. This behavior can be found in any culture and can be triggered by many motivations.

I find accusation and blaming to be unproductive; particularly in such a situation.

Regards,

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:35 PM

The stories *I* have seen say it was your basic hooligan, who is present in many countries. Vancouver saw the same sort of thing at the Winter Olympics.

I do think it is stretching a LOT to assign the origins of this to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM

> I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude.

I thought you were being tongue-in-cheeck. You mean you weren't?

You can't "spread" an attitude unless people are willing to adopt it themselves. Nobody's forcing them.


> I mean, come on, it's a GAME for crying out loud.

Does the name "Heysel Stadium" mean anything to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:46 PM

It just didn't seem like vancouver, somehow. If it's just sports as usual, then there is something wrong with sports.

Maybe I should have used the word exlanation rather than blame, but this was a bad thing, so calling the explanation blame is hardly a misuse of the term, and if that seems harsh, well, I condemn that kind of crap harshly. As pdq has condemned what they consider so worthy.

Am I just wrong that people in Canada tend to have better behavior than that, sports or nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

Maybe you should not have used the word "American" when referring to crap human behaviour which happens worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

In any large city in any country there are ALWAYS some who skew the 'generalized' idea of behavior. You wouldn't judge all Americans by the inner city of Detroit, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:58 PM

Then again, it could be Rogers Cable TV and Internet. Rogers is from BC innit?

I just had a bout with them a few hours ago. At least three houses next and I had the cable screwed up two days ago when they were working on the poles next to my house. The young girl MADE me (yeah, right) check all my connections before she would make an appointment for a service call between 11 and 2 tomorrow (they call twice and if you don't answer they cancel). That is when I told her I was recording this call for quality control purposes on my digital voice recorder. An hour ago, a truck showed up and the TV works again.

I'd say it's Rogers that caused the riots. Too bad the vehicles set on fire weren't Rogers service vehicles. That would be "AMERICAN"!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:07 PM

I thought it was the French who set cars on fire! Maybe it was the Quebeqcois, if that's how you spell that not counting accents which I can't remember how to do here...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

Why do so many people find real life so challenging?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

"Am I just wrong that people in Canada tend to have better behavior than that, sports or nothing? "

Yup. Maybe years ago but not anymore. I find people around here, in THE MARITIMES!!!!, are severely lacking in "Canuckiveness". Seriously, it's unreal, unfortunate, unWANTED and I see it on a daily basis. Perhaps you "call" it being "Americanized" and perhaps your terminology is in some way "correct" because it points to a problem which seems to be caused by mass media combined with affluence which is most commonly associated with the US but it sure took me the wrong way when I read your first post.

In other words, I can understand what you said and why you are saying (said) it but your choice of words PERHAPS wasn't quite appropriate... no?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

Mrrzy, I must say, I'm a bit surprised.

I don't know where you get the idea that this is somehow related to "American imperialism." If you haven't been living in a cave for the last several decades, you MUST be aware that there is a percentage of "sports' fans who turn into bloody-minded hooligans and indulge themselves with rioting and vandalism after a whole list of large sports events.

Most notable are international competitions of one sort or another. World soccer championships seem to be especially prone to this sort of thing. Take a good look at staid, civilized Olde England during soccer season!

This kind of collective mindless loutishness has absolutely nothing to do with "American imperialism." Nor is it characteristic of ANY particular nationality or ethnic group.

It more that likely relates much more closely to an unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin.

I believe you need to check your values and prejudices and have yourself a long think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

It more that likely relates much more closely to an unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin.

I'm not saying they are not involved Don but in the UK, loutish behaviour is far more associated with (soccer) football than it is with other sports and I'd imagine for example rugby supporters may well enjoy a drink and get excited about the game without this sort of thing.

Whatever, I can't see any way "Americanism" can be blamed for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:49 PM

John... half of them are below average intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:52 PM

Don has summed it up perfectly!

This has nothing to do with "the spread of Americanism", it has to do with loutish young sports fans of the stupidest kind, too much beer, and too much adrenalin. It has happened before in Canada after Stanley Cup hockey games. There was the famous "Montreal Riot", for example, and I think there was one in Toronto once too. It happens just about anywhere now and then, wherever the young, the restless, the immature, and the not too bright gather to observe our culture's version of the Roman Games... ;-)

Here is a historical account of the famous 1955 hockey riot in Montreal, Canada.

The Richard Riot (in Montreal)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM

Half of anything is below the MEDIAN - not necesssarily the mean, which is the mathematical average.

I am happy, I guess, that this is sports loutishness rather than American loutishness. But there is, as I've said, therefore, something wrong with sports.

Or is this sort of thing becoming normal?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM

Darn right there is something wrong with sports. It's too competitive. There's too much money at stake. It divides the public against one another. It's the modern day version of the Roman games and the gladiatorial combats. The very worst form of it now, in my opinion, is the Ultimate Fighting "sport" which is nothing more than a street fight held inside a ring...for big bucks. That's disgusting and corrupt, and it should not be legal to put on such a spectacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:58 PM

unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin

....and testosterone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:00 PM

Good point, Joe. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

I also do agree with the above that the world-wide media vision of humanity is very Americanized, that America (and many but certainly not all Americans) want it to be that way and expend a lot of energy to ensure that it BE that way, and that this is what is, albeit insidiously, imperialistic.

It's like a calm assumption that of COURSE everybody should be like us.

But it is true that we aren't the only sports fanatics, and that the footballl riots so often described in the media are talking about soccer.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

I personally think it is loutish to blame a country for misbehavior in another country, when the originally blamed country is not even all that interested in the sport. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM

AH!! Joe beat me to it, but this is what I was just about to post.

How many hundreds if not thousands of games like football, basketball, baseball, and for that matter, hockey occur every year WITHOUT there being any rioting? No, it's not SPORTS per se. Nor does it have anything to do with nationality.

It's down to sheer loutishness and nothing more.

Don Firth

P. S. And being male, I think I can fairly say that there is undoubtedly another ingredient in that mix of beer and adrenalin that burbles into a froth of hooliganism:   testosterone.

I've never heard of a riot breaking out after a Ladies' World Figure Skating Championship.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

I think that, because the opposing team was from the USA, that perhaps the Americans are getting the blame for this. However I believe it has happened before, when the same Canadian team, were the defeated favourites

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:13 PM

Mrzzy, I don't know about actual figures over here but it is recognised that it is only a small minority of supporters who get involved and that there can be "professional troublemakers" involved. Still if you've got say a crowd of 20,000 and 5% turn nasty, you've got 1,000 people to deal with.

As for becoming normal, it's been part of UK football for as long as I can remember. My speculation is that it is less of a problem now over here than it has been in the past and I think the football clubs themselves take more of a stance against bad elements amongst their supporters. Lifetime bans from grounds for violent or hateful (eg. racist) behaviour aren't unheard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:13 PM

LH.... "and I think there was one in Toronto once too"

Not over the Stanley Cup recently! Hahahahahahahehehehehehe.

Q. What do you call 30 millionaires around a TV watching the   Stanley Cup playoffs ?
A. The   Toronto Maple Leafs
==============================

Q. What do the Maple Leafs   and Billy Graham have in common?
A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell "Jesus Christ".
====================================
Q. How do you keep a Toronto Maple Leaf out of your yard?
A. Put up a goal net .
======================================
Q. What do you call a Maple Leaf with a   Stanley Cup   ring?
A. Real Old
====================================
Q. How many Maple Leafs does it take to win a   Stanley Cup ?
A. Nobody remembers.
=============================
   
Q. What do the Maple Leafs and possums have in common?
A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:17 PM

LOL!!! You can't get me upset by dissing the hapless Leafs, man! Try it on Shane if you want a big reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

Why do so many people find real life so challenging?

Just not used to it, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

"Everything you ever post is Anti-American garbage and racist."

Since when has there been a race called "Americans"?
.................................
Of course it's not just ice hockey or football. Here's a report of a slightly lower key bit of mayhem A drunken brawl, a celebrity call girl and tattooed men (and women)... whatever happened to a genteel day out at Ascot?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:36 PM

Citizens of the USA customarily refer to themselves as "Americans", McGrath....perhaps because it takes too long to say: "United Statesians" ;-)

"The United States of America" is an odd name for a country, but it derives from the fact that there were 13 colonies who joined together to fight the British, and they all considered themselves to be independent sovereign states, but joined in a federation.

Similarly, Holland called itself "The United Provinces" when several Dutch provinces joined together to throw out their colonial rulers from Spain. If they'd called themselves "The United Provinces of Europe", it would have been about as odd as what the American states decided to call themselves. America does not end at the USA's borders, it comprises everything from the North Pole to the tip of Tierre Del Fuego.

The whole name of Mexico, by the way, is "The United States of Mexico" (Los Estados Unidos de Mexico). That works a lot better, because it makes geographical sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM

I know that "Citizens of the USA customarily refer to themselves as "Americans" - but is there any "race" they all belong to, apart of course from the human race to which the rest of us belong as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:41 PM

My point being that anti-Americanism" may be deplorable, but it can't really be termed "racist".

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:45 PM

You read it wrong. No one said it was.

And what are most Americans..however they wish to define themselves, including North, South, Central Americans, Greenlanders, residents of various islands and protectorates and people who would like to become Americans or perhaps agree with our goals, however, poorly executed, doing today. Taking naps. Reading. Working. Golfing. Cleaning the shower. Pretty awful people, don't you think? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:52 PM

No, "American" is certainly not a term that designates race. Americans are of every race.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 06:17 PM

"American" is also not a shorthand term for "crass", "bullying", "obnoxious", or any other abuse that someone wants to sling. Or it should not be. But it too often is.

I've had people back down when challenged on this, and actually admit that they're just using it as a catch-all phrase. So I quote to them occasions when - not that long ago - their own nationality was spoken of in that same manner, and how offensive it is. Works wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM

But the question is, are Canucks racey and, if so, is it because of American influence?

And, if you think that's a serious question, you don't know from Canuck.

Nevermind. It's all just a misunderstanding of words. We are all the same... pissed off at assholes... whether it's the rioters in Vancouver or the stunned bunny that leaves the shopping cart on one side of the aisle and sticks her/his fat ass the other side and then says "sorry" after holding us up for a minute while they are in oblivion.

Of course, it's a tad worse when we are talking cruise missiles and politicians who haven't got two fuckin clues to rub together but it still pisses one off... no?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:22 PM

Endo-anal cranial autoinsertion knows no national boundaries.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: JennieG
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:26 PM

I found this article interesting....it doesn't blame sports, or testosterone-fueled young blokes, but looks at a different aspect altogether.

Hockey 'riot' article

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:39 PM

Yeah, good article. As he says, it could have happened anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM

This scandal is the first bad thing I have ever heard about Vancouver. I am sorry I have never been there.

As to what's wrong with sport, I recommend
The Sporting Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: meself
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 09:23 PM

I was at a riot the other night and a hockey game broke out ... (thank you, thank you).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for Vancouver, they had a Stanley Cup riot in 1994 - not quite as bad as this one, but a riot none the less. And fine city as it may be, it has a very seamy side, as is well known in Canada. Not that it was the seamy-side that was out rioting, from what I could see on TV, but the city isn't quite the Shangri-la that some may think.

And an interesting fact: there were, apparently, 100,000 people gathered in downtown Vancouver on the evening of the riot.

Oh, one other thing: there is no shortage of yahoos, idiots and extremely violent people in Canada, and never has been, as far as I can tell. (But to a man, they will give you the time of day if you ask them nicely and if they're wearing a watch).

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 09:57 PM

The youth in the middle east riot for freedom and democracy.

The youth in Greece riot because their country is basically a f%#k-up

The youth in Spain riot for jobs

The youth in Vancouver riot over a hockey game.

That just about sums up the situation when you think about it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 10:40 PM

sIx... well said. Sad, but well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 10:43 PM

The Football War (La guerra del fútbol, in Spanish), also known as the Soccer War or 100 hour War, was a four-day war fought by El Salvador and Honduras in 1969. It was caused by political conflicts between Hondurans and Salvadorans, namely issues concerning immigration from El Salvador to Honduras. These existing tensions between the two countries coincided with the inflamed rioting during the second North American qualifying round of the 1970 FIFA World Cup. On 14 July 1969, the Salvadoran army launched an attack against Honduras. The Organization of American States negotiated a cease-fire which took effect on 20 July, with the Salvadoran troops withdrawn in early August.

Eleven years later the two nations signed a peace treaty on 30 October 1980.

Now that's hooliganism.

Football hooliganism is relatively new in Switzerland. One incident, dubbed the 2006 Basel Hooligan Incident, 13 May 2006, occurred on the last day of the 2005-06 season, when FC Zürich defeated FC Basel at St. Jakob Park to win the Swiss championship with a last-minute goal. After the final whistle, angry Basel hooligans stormed the field and attacked Zürich players. The Zürich team were forced to celebrate in the upper deck of the stands while the fighting continued. There was similar fighting in the streets that night.

No, it's all England's fault!!!!

The first instance of football violence is unknown, as many football games have been played around the world for years, but football and violence could be arbitrarily traced back to at least the 14th century in England. In 1314, Edward II banned football (which then was a violent free-for-all involving rival villages fly-hacking a pig's bladder across the local heath) because he believed the disorder surrounding matches might lead to social unrest or even treason. The first alleged recorded instances of football hooliganism in the modern game took place in the 1880s in England, a period when gangs of supporters would intimidate neighbourhoods, as well as attack referees and opposing supporters and players. In 1885, after Preston North End beat Aston Villa 5-0 in a friendly match, the two teams were pelted with stones; attacked with sticks, punched, kicked and spat at. One Preston player was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness. Press reports of the time described the fans as "howling roughs". The following year, Preston fans fought Queen's Park fans in a railway station; the first alleged instance of football hooliganism away from a match. In 1905, several Preston fans were tried for hooliganism, including a "drunk and disorderly" 70 year old woman, following their match against Blackburn Rovers.

Check out "Football hooliganism" on Wikipedia for more.