Tech: Recording Music at Home

Subject: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:26 AM

I'm looking at recording some stuff (I do some already) and was wondering if there's any cheap thing I can get to make the quality better?

Or, if anyone knows some cheap studio time in Sheffield/Manchester...

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: treewind
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:15 AM

What was that recorded on?
The only example I tried (KingGwin.mp3) is apparently a 128k MP3, but it sounds as if it was recorded at a much lower bit rate. Cheap dictation-style voice recorder in long-play mode?

Also you are popping on plosives - need to get further away and put a pop shield in front of the mic.

Without better quality recording it's impossibe to tell what else might need to be done.

You can do better that that with a Zoom H1, and there can't be a cheaper way of making half-decent recordings.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 12:46 PM

My simple advice would be not to get bogged down in technicals. What matters much more is mic technique and recording environment.
Buy a second hand, (do they still make them) Mini Disc recorder and a good small mixer Behringer MX820A is excellent value. A couple of reasonable mics from Maplins and get recording. Listen on reasonable hifi gear. When you can hear the limitations of this lot, then its time to move on.
As much as possible try and get it right in one take, much quicker and less frustrating than the the best of post production gadgets. Better for honing the performance too.

Have fun.

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 01:46 PM

With all due respect, mini-disc is now an evolutionary extinct branch of audio technology.
I suggest even buying lowest cost 2nd hand off ebay, would be a false economy due to the age and 'reliability' of disc transports and batteries..

[i.e. Awai used proprietary rechargeable batteries which are now discontinued
and impossible to source.. that's me buggered then..]

I had 4 different recorders and always had reservations about using them for any serious applications
where HiFi quality was paramount.
While minidisc was convenient, they were a flawed compressed lossy audio concept,
and are now well superseded by superior sound quality and relatively cheap uncompressed lossless recording devices
like the Zoom H1.

I'd agree a well produced minidisc recording could sound very good
for domestic & in-car listening conditions
but technology has moved on immensly since the late 1990's..

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 02:08 PM

"With all due respect, mini-disc is now an evolutionary extinct branch of audio technology."

Absolute bollocks, have you not heard of the Sony RH1 which records to PCM and uploads to a PC via USB?

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 02:27 PM

yes... and yes I'm just as aware of audio forum moaning and carping re the failed promises of Sony support
for later 'advanced' mini disc formats...

You'd seriously stubbornly advise a young newcomer to audio recording
to invest good money on the last gasping breath of a dieing technology..???

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: treewind
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 02:28 PM

From Google Products about the Sony RH1:
"MiniDisc players have been almost entirely eclipsed by MP3 players, but according to experts, MiniDisc recorders are much better than MP3 players for making live recordings of concerts and lectures."

This is nonsense. MD recorders can't have an internal mic because the MD mechanisms makes loud clicking noises. Solid state recorders are silent and work well with their internals mics. The article quoted above makes no attempt to explain its assertion.

The Sony RH1 is twice the price of many competent solid state recorders.

Minidiscs are expensive. Memory cards are cheap for the same capacity and available in much higher capacities.

If you record to ATRAC, how is this useful after copying to a PC?
(compared with MP3 which nearly everything can play)

I used to be an avid minidisc fan, but my Edirol R-09 leaves MD in the dust. Sorry Sony: adding usable USB connetivity is too little, too late.

(apologies for thread drift...)

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM

I will not enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:18 PM

On the RH1 use Hi-SP instead of PCM for live music when you don't want to deal with that 45 second disc exchange after 95 minutes. Once converted to wave I feel very few people would be able to hear the difference. The MZ-RH1 is an incredible stealth recorder. Keep it in your shirt pocket and you can easily see & change your levels if required. Sounds great with good mini-mics.

I use a Skytronics stereo tie-clip mic which at £13 is very good value for money.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: s&r
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

Sounds like a cheap mic too close. Like the man said, beg borrow or steal an H1. Dead easy to use and costs less than a decent mic.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM

"Stealth Recorder?" I presume you get written agreements from the artists you are Bootlegging?

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:37 PM

Now where have I heard that before??

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:49 PM

Can I recommend:-"Guerilla Home Recording: How to Get Great Sound from Any Studio" by Karl Coryat - (No Matter How Weird or Cheap Your Gear Is) (Hal Leonard Music Pro Guides)

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM

In the days of recording on open reel tape recorders - I'm resting my left leg against a Teac 3340 as I type - the trick was to get as much level on to the tape as possible, and as the quality of tape improved it was possible to record up to +10db on that old workhorse.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:47 PM

In the days of recording on open reel tape recorders - a Ferrograph 5 and a 3 quid mic from the local radio repair shop...

for most of the 80's and 90's - a hitachi stereo cassette boombox
bouncing down from my girlfriends sony walkman
if I fancied a bit of multi dub tracking..


Couldn't afford DAT or ADAT

finally got a semi pro 4 track cassette
just as hard drive recorders were were starting to appear..

Remember when cubase went 2 track audio...

Philips digi cassette was a non starter dead end..

still struggling with E-mu sound card demanding far more ram than my old PC
can deliver for best quality 'demo' recordings..


Mini disc was only ever meant to be a handy domestic listening format for
uncritical teenagers..

When Bootleg CDs started to use mini disc source
there was uproar and major discontent about lossy digi recordings
polluting and diluting the underground music collecting scene.

Mini disc bootleggers are still held in highest contempt
by those who really care about sound quality..




"I'm resting my left leg against a Teac 3340 as I type"

so then Mr 3legs, what would you resting your middle leg against..

eewwww... might explain your odd fetishistic love for the Sony RH1...????

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:50 PM

BTW.. My 4 mini disc recorders and 2 Marantz CD recorders are gathering dust..

Can't wait to be able to afford a next generation pocket size solid state
memory card audio recorder..

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:11 PM

[sorry stream of conciousness.. should really have done all this in one post]

..and just remembered I have a Sony Pro Walkman WM-D6C
in a drawer or box somewhere in the house..

With the right combination of cassette tape, a good mic,
and careful level monitoring

I bet it could still fry the arse off any lossy minidisc recording.. !!!

oh and remind us, even if the RH1 mini disc was finally able to record lossless 16 bit
did sony copy restrictions ever allow lossless USB or spdif transfer
to a PC or any other storage media ???

That would have been a serious deal breaker for such an expensive bit of kit
back in 2006.


oh.. just remembered its 2011 and the affordable Zoom H1
has now rendered all our previous portable stealth recoring equipment
no matter how expensive or emotionally attached we are..

quite REDUNDANT

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:33 PM

ps.. "I will not enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man"

errmm.. what battle.. ?? unarmed.. ?? I have 2 arms..

you have 3 legs

and a belligerent over-boiled sense of your own importance..

My parents brought me up right to try best not to be unkind to natures sad & afflicted..

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM

Audacity is free and will allow you to record in wav format with a fairly high bit rate. Many cheaper condenser mics have a good frequency response and will replicate input quite accurately. If you are only using one mike you won't need a mixer. Audacity will also allow you to remove noise and change compression and equalization as well, and also overlay tracks. The price is right (free) and if you learn its bells and whistles you can come close to, but of course, never attain studio quality.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfokrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM

thanks Sandy,

Audacity and also Reaper..

A good cheap usb audio interface from Behringer etc..

Most important expenditure for a singer is a decent mic & popshield.

I'm tempted to investigate a good quality bargain cost effective starter kit from


http://www.red5audio.com/acatalog/Package_Deals.html

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM

sorry for spamming, last post [summer heat - dehydration - middle age medication - thirst quenching farmhouse cider- - - ]..

I'm talking home project studio gear..

MY experience of pro recording studios is sporadic over the last 30 odd years.

Ralphie is the man to listen to re serious proper pro studio approach
which undoubtedly informs his advice on best choice of economy home gear.

Wait for Ralphie to come back here..

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM

A perfectly functional popshield can be made from a nylon stocking stretched over an appropriately bent wire coathanger. They don't look good but they do the job.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: janemick
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 03:46 AM

we made popshields from two layers of tights stretched over small embroidery frames - easier to get them flat and tight.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM

Actually punkfokrocker, PCM recordings done on the RH1 are lossless and remain so when saved to wav.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 06:41 AM

I can heartily recommend the new Zoom R24; SR Card multi-track recording with 8 phantom-powered inputs. If anyone had told me even 5 years ago I'd be recording with no moving parts whatsoever I'd have poked them in the ear. What I've taken to doing is mastering from the R24 to the H4, and using the computer purely for internal editing / remixing.

However, if you need to make your laptop or PC into something special and don't have a lot of cash - then be sure to buy one of THESE - they are (like all good things) simple, to the point, and will do what many others claim to do at the fraction of the price.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 07:32 AM

Looks fascinating - don't understand what it does though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 08:07 AM

No doubt when my RH1 dies on me I will replace it with something which saves a lossless recording to a memory card, or whatever may have superceded it!!

I have a dead pro Walkman and DAT recorder on the shelf at home, both very costly to put in working condition.

It is also possible to upload MDs recorded on standard Mini Disc recorders via USB to a PC - did you know that??

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 02:58 PM

Well what a lot of technicals.
I stand by most of what I said in my original post, perhaps there are more modern devices like the much hailed Zoom to consider. BUT I was looking at a keen newcomer who I thought was looking to improve mic. technique and the art of mixing sound. There is no comparison between snatched field recordings, howevere good the quality and the controlled environment of a quiet room a couple or more mics on stands and a mixing desk. The package I outline above would set you back less than £100 by judicious Ebaying and would teach a newcomer loads.
Before you shout at me I've done the technicals, starting with early Audophile with its bays of Winchester disc memory. But nothing replaces good ears.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 04:21 PM

"The package I outline above would set you back less than £100 by judicious Ebaying"

I prefer to buy brand new with a warranty.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 04:45 PM

Sorry for not looking, I've been on the move since I posted this and haven't had a laptop to look at.

What I currently do is use a Shure SM57 and feed it straight into the mic input on my mobo, and a similar thing for any guitar work I do (except it goes through a DI box - name escapes me and it's currently in Sheffield). A direct recording on Audacity and I touch as little as possible except run the noise reduction at the end (there's a horrible crackling hence the post. Just tends to screw up any guitar recording for some reason).

So, I'm recording at too low a sample and singing too close to the mic? And I need a pop filter as well? I'll be back in Sheffield on the weekend and I'll rerecord King Gwin. I'd be grateful if someone could look at the guitar piece and see if my current tactic stands up to some sense of scrutiny.

I doubt it, but hey, I'm willing to learn.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 04:47 PM

Looks fascinating - don't understand what it does though.

It's a sound card that gives pristine hi-fi sound for recording, mastering & general playback for all your PC / laptop sound files. Essential.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 05:17 AM

Tascam Dp004 is great - about £120 but that gets you a lot of flexibility. Excellent mics, lite enough to hold or put on music stand. Separate voice and instrument record if desired - then do 'quick on-board mix and pan. I use it capture tracks then transfer to PC for sweetening. Using bathroom or kitchen for natural reverb is fun. Couple of days intense use and becomes very quick, lots of editing, drop-in features available ( tend to do this on PC ). Ideal for roughs to pass to other musicians, if they have digital recorders can send as wavs to be used by them.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM

I wonder if 2 Tascam Dp004 units could be used with one being the slave of the other, then providing the facility to record 4 tracks at once. Of course I could record 4 tracks at once on my Teac 3340 33 years ago - but then you needed a second machine in order to mix down to stereo and add more tracks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 10:59 AM

"What I currently do is use a Shure SM57 and feed it straight into the mic input on my mobo"

The microphone input on a computer is not designed for dynamic mics like the SM57. It's usually configured for an electret microphones.

So you're having to turn the gain way up to compensate and hence the noisy signal.

A simple way of connecting a dynamic mic to your computer is using something like -

http://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Alesis-Mic-Link-USB-Audio-Interface/ARC

Howard

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM

Just been to maplins for external drives and noticed that they do the small mbox interface with Pro-tools SE for less than £90. That not only gives you excellent basic recording to your computer but pretty good editing facilities as well. Don't recommend it for a computer below 2ghz but will work equally well on a Gates or a Jobs. Bargain!

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 01:31 PM

Forgot to say, the other reason for using something like this is that the interface becomes the external soundcard thus bypassing any computers shortcomings in that dept.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 06:56 PM

Yeah, I guessed that feeding directly into my mobo was a bad idea, but couldn't convince myself it was worth the cost at the time of buying the mic.

However, I've got them ordered, should hopefully arrive before I go back to hilly Sheffield.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:03 PM

Given a working to spec Reel to Reel I would use that any time for home recording.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:16 PM

I've used reel-to-reel, Tascam cassette portastudio, Sony Minidisc with stereo condenser mic, Roland VS840 8-track... and so goes the list.

Unless I'm actually doing multi-tracking, I now record all my solo stuff and duo stuff (i.e. with another player) on two Zoom H2 recorders - and get fantastic quality for the pounds invested.

If I multitrack, I use the Zoom H2 as a mic for my Roland VS840.

Everything is personal taste - and, in the end, it's all down to the trade-off between price and quality. Here's an example of the Zoom H2 in action:

"Simple Solitude"

Now, there are more modern and sophisticated variants of the Zoom recorders - and they're all priced differently and have different capabilities. All worth investigating.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM

Bonzo must be the proud owner of machine like the 3340 reel to reel. Many years ago a banjo playing friend worked for TEAC and we 'borrowed' one of the first into UK. Mics straight in and only had natural rooms reverb but I still have those half dozen multitracks on tape somewhere.

This thread has proved useful because the DP004 seems too technical for my wife, so looking at H2 and similar which she might find quicker as a note pad.

For years I used ntrack but have been impressed by Reaper for DAW.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:24 AM

Ooh, this sounds a lot better. Have a pop filter, a mic stand (WHY DIDN'T I HAVE ONE ALREADY!?) and that XLR to USB. I'll rerecord King Gwin in a few minutes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:08 AM

Right, done a recording for something else. I need to work on King Gwin. I don't like it at all.

It's one of the ones I'm recording for later, let me know what you think Listening here

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: s&r
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:13 AM

Nice clean recording. No pops. No overload. Noo background noise. Some sync problems between the two voices is all. Good stuff

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

Sync problems were mostly intentional. Honest.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 12:57 PM

"Right, done a recording for something else. I need to work on King Gwin. I don't like it at all.

It's one of the ones I'm recording for later, let me know what you think Listening here"

There's no bass (or indeed mid, really) to that recording at all. That was still the SM57 going direct in, right? Your interface thing hasn't arrived yet?

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 01:03 PM

"Everything is personal taste - and, in the end, it's all down to the trade-off between price and quality. Here's an example of the Zoom H2 in action:
"Simple Solitude"

Very enjoyable playing Will.

Does your video camera have a mic input on it then? How do you get the audio from your H2 to your camera?

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:30 PM

the other day at work I was bored and browsing the Thomann website (big European musical instrument supplier).

I idly purchased their T-Bone MM1 measurement microphone. T-Bone is Thomann's own brand, kind of like the Woolworths of the recording world.

I'd always wanted to try a measurement mic: they are among the cheapest mics available, and they are generally not considered suitable for music, being supposedly cold and clinical and super-harsh sounding. They are designed to be used for 'measuring' - sound fields, noise pollution etc. I always suspected that they were looked down on largely due to audiophlle recording-engineer snobbery.

Well it arrived today. It's £30 very well spent. Blow me if it isn't highly detailed, rich, transparent, with a smooth top end, and far from cheap sounding. Haven't tried it on acoustic instruments yet (only vocals) but I imagine it'd work very well. It's a condenser, so it needs phantom power (which most music soundcards/mic preamps provide). I'm definitely getting another, so I can do proper stereo recordings. It also looks very cool in a 1970s-idea-of-the-future kind of way.

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:11 AM

I've been archiving my song and tune 'catalogue', primarily as something better than numerous scarcely playable cassettes, and secondarily as a way of 'terrorising' family and friends.

My equipment: mike= T-boneSC450USB + pop filter
               
             software= Wavesound 6

The only problem is that the sound card on my PC doesn't support all the Wavesound functions- no mixing desk, for example.
But for archive CDs it's OK. I haven't heard any complaints about lousy recording quality either- for all I know the recipients probably threw the CDs out with the garbage!

Subject: RE: Tech: Recording Music at Home
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:17 AM

@Matt That was XLR to USB. I don't have a dedicated soundcard and don't really have the funds.

Plus, now I have a 5.1 sound system, I can hear all the click bleed! Yay!