'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

I feel much can be learned from looking backwards, here are some examples.
Folk clubs circa 1970 often had upwards of 100 people attending, floor singers had to be able to remember words [without bits of paper]and had to be able to sing in tune and have their instruments in tune.   otherwise they would not be guaranteed a floor spot the next week, there were some excellent resident groups, Skinners Rats for example, a group who I listened to fairly recently, this group had the ability to interact with their audience and understood about performing as well as many professional singers., and did an excellent job as warm up for the main artist
I listened to a live S Rats cd from that time, it sounds like they had 200 people in the audience, and the audience banter was excellent, everyone was clearly having a ball.
around the same time the Singers club were enforcing a rule in their club, which had both positives and negatives, the positives were many revival singers went out and sought out english traditional material and sang it instead of mainly american material, the mistake here was that for a while a lot of good american material was not sung very much, the ideal[imo] would have been the encouragement of both, what the rule said as I remember was that you had to be American to sing American material etc.
folk clubs at that time were run by mainly young people, these young people met got married and many dropped out of going to clubs until their children were grown up, hence a decline in numbers in the late seventies and eighties, it is quite probable that this up and down cycle will occur again and again, what would be interesting to know is how the long running clubs survived the lean years, that would be looking backwards and learning possibly something useful which could be passed on for the future generations of folk music enthusiasts and club organisers.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:20 AM

Clive, I do know that you at least have a sense of humour, your coats gone, the baldyga was here and swapped it for his bike

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 09:34 AM

The Facebook group entitled The Vic & Tina Smith Folk Club Forum Sidmouth Festival has nothing to do with Tina and I but is just yet another boring example of BNP identity theft of our names. Please do not even look at it.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

ok vic, something we agree upon.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 10:15 AM

The entire Sidmouth programme is now on-line at http://www.sidmouthfolkweek.co.uk/uploads/PDFs/SIDMOUTHMain.pdf.

The event that this thread refers to is confirmed as follows:-

Event 456 4.30-6.00pm Arts Centre

A Future for Folk Clubs. In the 1960s and 70s, folk clubs were the focus
of the British folk revival. They still have a vital role to play in the 21st
century. Vic and Tina Smith, organisers of the very successful Royal Oak
folk club in Lewes, Sussex, will lead a discussion on all aspects of club
organisation. Come and have your say, or just listen! W                             £8

I hope those of you who are at this wonderful festival can come along.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Steve in Sidmouth
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:56 AM

Does this include running new folk dance clubs or is it aimed solely at music and song events?

There has been some debate about folk dance clubs dying out - some events locally that have run for 40 years have closed and others are going to close.

There are a few new clubs (I help to run one of them near Sidmouth) but the average age of attendees across the country is hardly inspiring.

The only place I have danced with a large number of competent youngsters is IVFDF.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

Steve In Sidmouth asked:-
"Does this include running new folk dance clubs or is it aimed solely at music and song events?"

This event is aimed at folk song clubs, Steve, as you can see from the agenda posted above.... but I would think that a similar forum on dance clubs could be arranged for a future festival. Contact Derek Schofield... or he may even answer here; he pops into Mudcat from time to time.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:39 AM

Yes, a potential topic for the future. there is a callers' forum this year, aimed at the social dance side of things, but also open to anyone interested in calling ceilidh or folk dance club.
Derek

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:28 PM

Erm...is it a free event or charged?

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:32 PM

And yes, Vic, did se your post of 2nd July..thanks, but have been able to discover nothing since. Surely theymust have the good grace to let you know. I have strong feelings that such an event should be open and free.....what else would we be paying for. Anything less inclusive ( seaon ticket holders only) would detract from its credibility.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 03:52 AM

Festivals have overheads, as Mr Schofield explained earlier. Even in an event where there are no artists as such to pay, you have to pay for venues, for accommodation for the facilitators, etc. This forum is part of the festival's regular programme of talks, discussions, screenings etc which take place at the Arts Centre. As such, it is taking up the place of a charged event.

Season ticket holders can attend the event as part of their festival ticket. Others will have to pay. If you have an objection to this, perhaps you might like to run a free forum somewhere near where you live. This isn't meant to be a definitive event, nor one representing any particular group or constituency, so I am sure there is plenty of scope for other similar discussions elsewhere.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

I have to agree to a fairly large extent with TtheC. if you want a realistic and representative discussion then I would suggest such an event should be free or at minimal cost (with the "overheads" being picked up by an averaging out procedure over the whole festival).
On that day at that time there are lots of other good events that season ticket holders will take themselves off to, and for £8 , I guess most paying punters will do the same.
The recent Scottish Traditional Music Forum conference in Dundee cost £30 for a whole day conference including lunch, but it was not in the middle of a big festival with lots of competing attractions: and some delegates were sponsored by their clubs or organisations to attend anyway.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM

I seem to remember someone had the good idea to hold a forum during Sidmouth folk week, probably the biggest meeting of Club organisers in the country.
Fitting it in to the programme makes it an official event with the publicity, insurance stewarding etc that goes with it. Therefore it should be priced as any other workshop. I see no problem with this. Perhaps one outcome of this first meeting will be a timetable of future forums which could be costed accordingly, perhaps even free.
It would be good if there was a meet scheduled in at every festival.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

We have numerous discussions during the week. People with day or weekend tickets come, as do those who buy event tickets. If you want to come to this event, all of these options are open to you. Or you could volunteer as a steward and attend lots of events in exchange for your labour. If you don't want to do any of these, I would respectfully suggest, once again, that there is nothing stopping you holding your own similar discussion elsewhere, for free. Events at Sidmouth have overheads. There is no particular reason that people who buy tickets should basically subsidise free events for those who are reluctant to do so.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 07:11 AM

Sounds like the discussion could be interesting but I am not prepared to pay £8 to attend it. I am sure there will be more ongoing discussions on these topics at many fringe events throughout the festival season, as there have been for several years already.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM

What's with all the GUEST postings? I'm guessing that these are 2 different people as their views seem to be at variance.
I'm not convinced by the arguments put forward for the £8 fee: and it comes across as a bit hoity-toity to say go off and do your own thing. Yes it does sound interesting but there are 5 other £8 events on at the same time, 2 @£4 for Shooting Roots, and 6 which are collection only. Ok, I appreciate that it would be difficult to schedule this event at a time when other things did not compete or conflict, but could this not have been made anther collection event? (I know you can't change it now for this year, but I like Miskin Man's suggestion in his penultimate sentence above.)

I HAVE bought a week ticket, so I could attend for no extra charge: I don't volunteer for stewarding for family reasons, although I do help out where I can at some of the Fringe events. And I'm painfully aware of overheads from my own experience of helping to run clubs and festivals (we don't often get free venues either!), but if the level of fee keeps folk away who might have a valid contribution to make to the discussion, then that's a shame.

As for one thing subsidising another, surely this happens all the time, with well-attended concerts subsidising the less popular ones? (as happens in folk clubs also).
Anyway as the last GUEST has said, there will no doubt be other discussions and sharing of ideas going on throughout the week.

Please be assured that my remarks are intended to be constructive rather than (as they seem to have been interpreted) knocking the management. I wish you a constructive forum and may or may not come.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

To clarify what else is on at the same time ...

5 events at £8.
2 events at £4 - Shooting Roots aimed at 13-18 year olds who get half price admission for events anyway.
6 events with collection: 1 is an Anchor ceilidh (all these are free and the pub is a Platinum sponsor of the festival), 3 are outdoor dance displays, a ballad session and a storyround which both involve the audience performing....

Derek

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 07:16 PM

To clarify my original post. I would like to be part of a discussion, which is why I am on this forum, if the forum genuinely wants a representative group, this is not the way to do it. i emember a free discussion on Morris in the drill hall a few years ago....Tattie is of course right, free events are quite possible if the festival as a whole is priced and managed properly.
   If the aim is to have an effect on the wider folk movement, this foeum is not the way to do it.....£8 ???? for giving and sharing.
And what a rude and insensitive comment to say go and do your own thing elsewhwere.... incredible.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

Rude and insenstive? Why? As I explained earlier, the festival has overheads. The event is priced just as any workshop or participative event.

As far as "properly managed" festivals sharing costs across events, we already run a substantial number of free events for the good visitors to Sidmouth to enjoy. Try matching this year's free programme of concerts and ceilidhs in the Anchor gardens on an event-by-event basis and see if you'd get much change out of £10k. If we made free or reduced the cost of every event which some people felt entitled to attend without paying (or by paying a peppercorn amount), the festival would be bankrupt. End of.

The event is being run because there was a perceived desire for it, to which we responded. It is a programmed event, it has overheads, there is a charge. If this is not to your taste, I would reiterate the fact that this is one event at one festival. The whole point of the new folk club network is to create various opportunities for forums around the country. You may find one of those more to your liking. Or start your own, and hire a venue, get insurance, staffing, bring in guests...and don't charge anyone to attend. There is no one stopping you doing exactly that, and I don't really understand why anyone would be affronted by such a suggestion.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Dave Earl
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM

Come on guys

It's a workshop type thing and you pays for your workshops doancha.

Pay to attend or don't go it's your choice.

Dave

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:02 AM

Yawn....its not a workshop...people are being asked to come along and participate. Anyway its status has been made clear, so I have no further interest. Fortunately there are many other participatory events throughout the festival and i already find it difficult to get around to, and I certainly do my bit in filling tins, either by donating or playing/singing at collection events.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:23 AM

Well, the idea from Tina and I was to try to provide a session/workshop/forum that would inject some stimulating positive ideas into the folk club scene plus a sharing of good ideas from those attending. The idea seems to be a useful one because it was quickly adopted by other leading festivals - Cambridge (facilitated by Jon Boden) and Whitby (led by Pete Coe) but all I seem to have done so far is to set off another round of Mudcat argy-bargy. Ho Hum.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Vic

It's the way they are round here.

There'll always be someone to disagree with whatever it is.

I won't be at your forum but I've no other axe to grind so I hope iut works for you all.

Dave

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

Vic, I applaud the idea and your work in setting it up: didn't I say I found it interesting when you first put it on here?
My interpretation of your post was that it was not "just another workshop", but something of special interest to many attending the festival. I ventured what I thought was a legitimate opinion on an open forum - which appears not to concord with some others: that's not argy-bargy, sorry.
I'll say no more.

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: evansakes
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:26 AM

How did this go? Any conclusions? Or is the ongoing discussion going on elsewhere?

Is there any future for "folk clubs"? Or are we all doomed?

Subject: RE: 'Folk Club Forum' at Sidmouth Festival
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

It went very well. 36 clubs represented - far more than I expected.
I recorded the whole thing and will start to transcribe it when things are less hectic. (I have my own festival in October to attend to amongst many other folkie things)
I have been promised a synopsis of the Cambridge & Whitby forums and then I will put it together with those outcomes to make an article - which I will announce on Mudcat.