BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.

Subject: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:12 PM

I insist that many of our social and political problems stem from too many people not being literate in human sexuality. Too many of our faulty notions of sexuality come from religious books and ancient and long-discredited social notions rather than from what we know actually is.

Competent and honest sex education is far too often challenged by religious entities, and this perpetuates our faulty knowledge. I further suggest that depriving children of education about their behaviour as sexual beings is akin to child abuse. We teach them about most other aspects of bodily health, and this should be no different. If parents are sexually illiterate, then it should be done by well-informed and comfortable teachers.

I further suggest that much or most of this illiteracy hurts women disproportionately.

I am certain that many false notions will turn up in this thread. And I will correct them as I see them.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:15 PM

Hooray for Saul!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:46 PM

I am very sorry, saulgoldie, but I'll have to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:52 PM

On npr tonight there was a show about the sexual world of the handicapped. It was refreshing and uplifting to hear.

The sexual repression of muslim boys and men are expressed in rapes of inpunity which under their laws protects the men and prosecutes the women.

The sexual teachings of right wing christianity hasn't stopped anything but does make for a rich and varied world of accusation and shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM

Hear hear. I'm too young to be a parent, but by god do they need to teach some stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:04 PM

I was a bout 15 and dating this girl who lived down the street and one day I was over at her house and her daddy walked over to me when no one was within earshot, looked me square in the eyes and said, "You know they punch a hole in one outta three rubbers" and then walked away...

I donno if that is true but I doubt it but that ain't the issue at all... Heck, I mighta made to second base with his daughter but this was like the 50s and 15 year old boys just weren't gettin' much more back then... I would have loved to have had to worry about "them rubbers"...

LOL...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:19 PM

Definition of a 'father': A man who doesn't want HIS daughter doing what he wanted other men's daughters to do when he was their age.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:20 PM

I sent my own three kids to Catholic high schools. Contrary to what some might expect, the schools did a pretty good job of teaching the kids what my ex and I didn't. The texts the kids used were excellent. My ex was in nursing school when the kids were in high school, so they got some of their sex education in connection with their mother's nursing school education and texts.

I homeschooled my stepson through high school, and the homeschool charter school didn't offer a sex education course. My stepson is taking a human sexuality course in junior college this summer, and it seems to be excellent.

There are some things that parents can't teach teenage children very well, so it's good to have a mix of parental enlightenment and good sex education in school. I think all four of my kids ended up with a pretty good mix of both.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:27 PM

Women are hurt much more by attitudes which are still demeaning and erode self esteem, by the still existing lack of decent ways to make a living, support their children in the absence of responsible men to help out.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:49 PM

Yesterday I was forcibly reminded of the long history of the oppresion and abuse of women.

I was talking with a Tlinget woman - a bright, literate women who grew up in the traditional way of Alaskan Natives in Hoonah, Alaska, a village on an offshore island in Southeast. A very large part of their culture is story telling, which acts as an oral history passed down through generations.

One of the taboos in Alaska Native culture is to marry within your own moiety. I'm sure it was instituted hundreds of yeas ago to prevent inbreeding.

Anyway a Raven must not marry a Raven but an Eagle. If your mother was Eagle, you must find someone to marry whose mother was Raven. Rebellion has/had severe consequences.

She launched into a traditional story where this woman and man married/had an affair within their own moiety. When the Elders discovered it, they took the man and put him with a different woman.

They took the offending woman and bound her to a stake at the shore facing the incoming tide, where she drowned.

When I remonstrated, my friend told me, The woman knew before she ever went out with him that it was taboo.

I said, The man knew it too!

She said, Ah, but the man couldn't help it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:44 AM

And, the misogyny continues in our Congress.

Ebbie, it seems so many cultures thought men were so helpless in controlling their "urges" and, of course, blamed it all on the women. Sadder, still, it is happening in so many places, today.

saul...I agree with you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:39 AM

Education is the way forward in a great many areas of our lives. Ignorance causes much hurt and distress. Openess - and I do not mean promiscuity - in sexual matters gets rid of ignorances when done right. When things are taboo it makes space for doubt and ignorance about true underlying feelings and reasons. Women often pay the price for a lot of this though I would never say men cannot be victims too.

I'm with saulgoldie for sure on this

mauve

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

I fully agree, and would add that emotional literacy ia as important as sexual literacy. By that I mean teaching the importance of respect and kindness in relationships, that using people for physical pleasure alone is wrong, and that male and female alike should be cherished and viewed equally in all our dealings. The trouble is that the mechanics of sex are taught, but not so much the importance of love, trust and mutual respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:56 AM

In his memoirs Spike Milligan tells of him being sent to a convent school when the family lived in India, his mother asked the Mother Superior how they separated the sexes ? usualy with a crowbar the nun replied.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

All too often the label "promiscuity" is used to condemn. Promiscuity is the abandonment of choice. So long as anyone exercises choice they are not "promiscuous".

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:01 AM

The old celts had it right. They understood the cycles that drove folks and didn't assign a morality to it. Sexual curiosity and urges were as natural and obvious to them as the sun coming up.

It's just sex, after all. Relax.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:43 AM

The biggest danger is when information is concealed...as in the latest hiv figures.
You Americans are fortunate to have an open and independent organisation like CDC to give you the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

"... but the man couldn't help it."...a culturally embedded excuse for "they don't want to help it."
   This usually accompanies the attitude that marriage conveys ownership to a man. (That is, official ownership. Many men assume de facto ownership if a woman allows sex..)

My wife learned this song many years ago: it makes a point.

Ballad_of_Erica_Levine

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:04 PM

"Literacy" - what a very peculiar use of the word. "Understanding", "knowledge", "awareness", those are the kind of words that make sense here - but "literacy"...

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

Literacy is the right term, I think, for working knowledge gleaned from education both formal and informal... like cultural literacy.

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:31 PM

I agree with Kevin- 'literacy' can be twisted and pulled to fit this idea but it is a torturous exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:50 PM

Well said... especially... "I further suggest that depriving children of education about their behaviour as sexual beings is akin to child abuse."

A very insightful and precise observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:00 PM

In the same sense that shaving is akin to suicide, I would suggest...

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:14 PM

Brilliant...not lost your touch I see. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

My father was too inhibited to tell me anything sensible about sex! ;-) (not that he didn't try...)

My mother told me nothing about it.

My classmates told me various silly things about it.

I got quite a bit of useful information from books.

And that, in the end, turned out to be good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:31 PM

My point being, any child who wants to learn facts about sex and who has a bit of initiative can do it quite readily by seeking out information him or herself...through normal literacy, in fact! ;-) It would certainly help if one got some helpful information from one's parents, teachers, etc, but if one doesn't, there are other ways.

I never found religion standing in the way of my learning anything about sex, saulgoldie. It wasn't even a factor in my case, because we didn't belong to any religion nor did it play any significant role in the various schools I attended in my youth.

What did play a significant role in those schools was nationalistic political bullshit. They were not teaching me to worship God when I was in school, saulgoldie, they were teaching me to worship the modern political state and to serve it unquestioningly for the rest of my natural life.

So what pushes your buttons clearly doesn't push mine, if I may go by the general tenor of your opening remarks on this thread. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:37 PM

There is something about sex that is autodidactic. ALthough I know of one case where a couple did it wrong for years, and finally thehusband had his wife comitted for want of an heir. In the 20th century!! Mygawd.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:49 PM

I agree with Hawk.....learning for oneself is great fun...dont complicate matters

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM

There is something about sex that is autodidactic.

I know there is a jacking off joke somewhere in there.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:29 PM

From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM

There is something about sex that is autodidactic.

I know there is a jacking off joke somewhere in there.

Ah, yes there is.

That's about all I dare to say. ; - )

Jay

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 07:35 PM

You say that couple were "doing it wrong" for years, Amos?

Kind of makes one wonder just how they were doing it! ;-)

(Not in the ear, I hope...)

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM

An absolute core principle of sexual literacy is recognizing behavior boundaries. That is to say that an individual and ONLY that individual owns his or her sexual behavior and reproductive system.

That means that said individual is the ONLY ONE that may give permission for sexual activity either alone or with another(s). That means that the individual is empowered to make their own contraception choices.

Accepting this principle is core to one's being sexually literate. Anyone who thinks they may make these decisions for another is sexually ILLiterate.

Unfortunately, too many people think they have the right to make these decisions for others. THEY are sexually ILLiterate.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 12:32 PM

In order to be truly free to make decisions in one's own best interests, one must be free from force. And "force" includes the need to take care of one's basic life needs: food, shelter, etc. Hence this thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=81708&messages=131

And also, hence the concept that everything is connected. Nothing is more than "3 mouse clicks" away from anything else.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: gnu
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 03:16 PM

Speak UP Little Hawk!

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:00 AM

This is most certainly NOT an example of sexual literacy:


http://www.alternet.org/story/152009/why_is_sean_hannity_so_mad_you%27re_having_sex_5_ways_conservatives_attack_sexual_freedom?a


Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:44 AM

Well, I'm with Little Hawk and Eliza here.

But to their posts I'll add a little of my own.

Could someone please explain to me why, when children now know SO MUCH about 'sex' there are more teenage pregnancies and sexual diseases around than when I was a young person?

We had 30 minutes of Mrs. Smallworth giving us the most basic details possible, girls only...whilst the boys were with a male teacher.

Afterwards neither side discussed anything with the other. Heck, we didn't discuss it much amongst ourselves.

We were only taught what happened to girls, pretty much, although intercourse was obviously discussed, but no more personal details of what goes on with the lads.

NONE of my friends became pregnant...and as far as I know, none of them had sexual diseases either, mainly because very few of us were off having 'sex' with every Tom, Dick and Harry's dick, as I've said so often before. Rather. we were there waiting for 'love' to come knockin' at the door.

I went to the worst school in my area at the time too, not some prissy Girls' School, before anyone asks.

Roll on several generations.....

My daughter, taught everything under the sun..pretty horrified too and very embarrassed and uncomfortable to have to sit there and endure it.

Afterwards the boys ridiculed the girls. They kept on and on about 'periods' and would go through girls' bags looking for tampons or sanitary towels, taking them out and messing around with them.

The girls would retaliate with equal crudeness....

My daughter felt it was almost as if they were being encouraged to have sex, as she felt it almost 'expected' they would be, so this was what you had to do to protect yourself etc.......

I've said before about young people being advised to have oral sex by the Think Tank that doesn't think, in Exeter University, when that particular idea was taken into some schools....

At primary school I was the ONLY parent who bothered to watch the video they were shown in Year 6 and I was horrified to be honest...as Mum and Dad were there brushing their teeth without a stitch on..and then, later, the little child got into bed with both of them, with his pyjamas on, but Mum and Dad were still starkers..

Now of course, had *I* had such a video, of my husband, myself and my daughter, which had somehow got into the public arena, no doubt Social Services would have been around to arrest us both, as parents, for dodgy goings-on in the bedroom!

I mean???? WTF is going on??????

Also, in Year 6 boys and girls were all shown a very graphic film of childbirth.

Why?

WTF has this got to do with being 11 years old?

Hells Bells, even as an adult I never got to see what was happening whilst I was giving birth, nor would I have wanted to, thanks very much! Yeesh! That would have traumatised me as a young child....

I had a childhood!   I wasn't saturated with sex at every turn. My friends and I didn't even THINK about it! We were way too busy being children and enjoying ourselves.....Even in secondary school, after that 30 minute session, in Year 8 it went to the back of our minds...

We were friends with the boys, but by and large they boys weren't that interested in us, still busy playing football with their mates, and we were just happy being young, dreaming of falling in love...

It worries the beejayzus the way children are being forced more and more to swallow dodgy information on sex.

Leave them alone, for goodness sake!

I learnt much of my knowledge of love and sex from films, most of which were gentle and loving...I had absolutely no idea WHAT oral sex was until I was in my 20s...and even then it was a case of "You do WHATTTT, Walt? HOLEY MOLEY!!" :0)

Love is wonderful....for it encompasses the most intimate act that is shared between two human beings in the right way.


Nowadays, that 'act' has become almost akin to taking a crap..just another bodily function.....

What the fook have we done to our children, eh????????????!

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

So be aware, be VERY aware of those who seek to teach our children WAY too much...and ask what the reasons behind that may be.

By ALL means teach them about kindness, respect, self-respect, love, saying no, saying "Look, fook off you pervert!) but please, leave them alone to be young.   We have already done so much damage, so very, very much, turning our children into Sexual Beings LONG before Mother Nature herself had ever planned...and that is wrong, so very wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 12:36 PM

Is the correct term Sexual Literacy or sexual maturity?

Bill D said ""This usually accompanies the attitude that marriage conveys ownership to a man"".

I suspect the traditionally accepted man and woman relationship is only one part of the complex world of sexuality, relationships children, belongings and the power struggles that comes with them. Other important elements to consider (to mention a few) are culture (including tribalism and social norma),religions and governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:10 PM

Lizzie: stop demonising sex. It is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:42 AM

I'm not demonising sex, Richard, although I am asking where the 'love' went.

I am however, shouting out loud about the over-sexualisation of our children, which I think has many demons running through it, with very dodgy and disturbing agendas.

You like sex without love, it would seem. For me the two run together..aif love is not there, then sex is not there..

End of.

However, I appreciate we are ALL different. I have no problems with anyone doing anything, so long as it hurts no-one else, is not in my face, or all over newspapers, or indeed out in society in general. I'm fair fed up with the way the Sex INDUSTRY has contaminated so very much within young people's minds, leaving a crudeness there, a lack of self-respect and respect for others, that was never there, en masse, once upon a time.

It's tough enough just growing up, without all these adults putting their worries on you that YOU should know all that they know and beyond, to the point where it clouds your vision and removes any thought of gentleness and love that you may have once had.....leaving many feeling depressed.

I see a society where Love is lacking, bigtime...where de-sensitivity and promiscuousness abound...

If a person does not love themselves, then how can they love another? How can they love their children?

You may think it's normal to see 5 year olds dancing like Beyonce, I think it's deeply disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 04:50 AM

There you go again

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 10:50 AM

So you think it's OK for children to be sexualised, Richard?

Is that what you're saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 11:41 AM

What do you mean/imply by "sexualised" Lizzie?

Have you asked them Lizzie?

Do you remember being young?

Love is neither a passport nor a gateway to sexual desire. You see the need to legitimise the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 11:57 AM

One false notion is the use of the term "gender" for sex. Gender refers to language usage.
Sex says man and woman physically.

Literacy in sex should be associated with the psychological nature of relationships.
Isolating sex from these things is not educational or productive.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 01:52 PM

Love is the answer to all the problems of this world, Richard.

Sex is not.




Once we 'made love'




Now we 'have sex'



And inbetween these times we have lost something deeply Spiritual and unbelievably Precious.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: gnu
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:47 PM

Ahhh... no.

Love is love and sex is sex. Loving sex could be loving sex or loving sex. Both are fine but having sex with someone you love is the second ultimate mental/physical experience for a human.

On the other hand, an email I received the other day may help to clarify my arguements...

"My wife says to me the other night, how come we don't make love like they do in the movies?

So I bent her over the table, smacked her on the ass, grabbed her by the hair, called her a dirty whore, fucked her hard and then came on her face. Turns out we don't watch the same movies."

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:02 PM

>>>"Ahhh... no.

Love is love and sex is sex. Loving sex could be loving sex or loving sex. Both are fine but having sex with someone you love is the second ultimate mental/physical experience for a human."<<<<


Ok, come on....out with it, gnu...and the FIRST is????? :0)



Nope, I'm staying with Making Love, thank you very much....I didn't jump on this Sex With No Ties train..It's empty and it's hollow...like being at a Banquet but you can't taste the food. Oh, it LOOKS perfect, smells divine, but hell, when you try to taste it, there's just no ingredient that satisfies the tummy...leaving an aching hunger inside and a longing for 'what could be'....

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:05 PM

No. That is conditioning to make women subject rather than self determining.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:21 PM

For once, and unusually, I agree with Lizzie. Sex without love is horrible. I'd rather go without.

But I accept that others mileage may vary etc etc.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual Literacy: Not Enough of it.
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 05:33 PM

Literate Sexuality--not enough of it!! That's where we should be focusing our attention. Kids ought to pass an exam on "War and Peace" and "Moby Dick" before they are allowed to open their flies, is what! IF you cannot do an exegesis of "The Wasteland" you don't get to go into below-the-waist land. :D