BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:05 PM

It's not defeatist to me, Jack, because I envision our capacity to create a completely different kind of political system far better than what we have now...as opposed to continuing playing around in the existing game (which is division of the public by heavily financed political parties). It's the existing game as it is NOW that I absolutely don't believe in. I'd be defeatist if I didn't think there were any viable alternatives to the present party-based political games that are going on.

I'm like someone in the 1600s who says that the game of hereditary monarchy has outlived its time, should be dropped, and that we need to do something else entirely. Most people at that time would have been aghast at such an assertion, and they would have called me something even worse than "defeatist", they would have called me a "rebel", a "traitor", or a "republican"...but merely because they...just like most people NOW....were incapable of thinking outside the box of their own current conventions and their own time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 PM

On a personal level, Hawk. Do you have any notion how irresponsible it is to suggest to anyone that they off themself? It is beyond the pale. You have no idea who is reading it or what their tendencies might be. Suicide is no joke. Nor does it belong in any discourse, ANY! Shame on you, sir.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 07:46 PM

>>It is illusory and unproductive, in my opinion, for people to engage in negative "isn't humanity dreadful?" diatribes. It doesn't help anyone. What I would say to someone who has such a dark view of humanity is, "Well, if you feel that way, then why are YOU still here? If you really believe that human beings are intrinsically dirty, wasteful, and destructive...if your basic philosophical contention is that we are bad creatures...then do the world and yourself a favor, live up to your own negative dogma, and kill yourself. After all, as long as you're still here, you are part of the insoluble problem you seem to believe in. Take action in the one way you can! ;-) Wipe yourself off the planet.<<

Putting the shoe on the other foot.
I feel just that way about you when you express you defeatist politics.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM

Bill, I am in no way opposed to serious efforts to reduce the birth rate around the world. Realize that, and cease tilting against imagined windmills, because that is not what I was offering you. I'd talk at greater length about it if we were alone...at a coffee table...but we're not.

We are facing many serious problems, and overpopulation is just one of them.

saulgoldie -

It is illusory and unproductive, in my opinion, for people to engage in negative "isn't humanity dreadful?" diatribes. It doesn't help anyone. What I would say to someone who has such a dark view of humanity is, "Well, if you feel that way, then why are YOU still here? If you really believe that human beings are intrinsically dirty, wasteful, and destructive...if your basic philosophical contention is that we are bad creatures...then do the world and yourself a favor, live up to your own negative dogma, and kill yourself. After all, as long as you're still here, you are part of the insoluble problem you seem to believe in. Take action in the one way you can! ;-) Wipe yourself off the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 06:48 PM

Humans are a very "dirty" species. Wasteful and destructive. Do you know what Thoreau *really* did to Walden? (There was an NPR story about it recently. Can't find it just now.)

Once we "conquered" our short life span, it was inevitable that we would eventually doom ourselves, and many other species along with us. Religion told us to keep multiplying. Scientific understanding suggested that we learn to coexist sustainably with the other brother and sister species of the planet. Guess which "voice" we listened to.

I think ahmonna have another drink. Time grows short.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 06:03 PM

"The problem isn't too many people. The problem is that a few have a great deal and a great many have very little."

That bit of over-simplification is one of the reasons so little is being done. The problem with it is that the central point is true...trivially true. Yes, there is gross inequality... but if everyone suddenly agreed to share and divide assets fairly, there would STILL be too many people! Everyone would discover that there was not enough resources to provide the desired life-style. And that would ensure that any 'sharing agreement' would quickly dissolve.

   Part of the reason is that there will always be waste...if I have leftover rice, I can't mail it to some starving family in China. We can do 'better', but we can't get anywhere near 100%. Water is a worse problem. If all the floods in Iowa could be diverted to Somalia, we get somewhere...but....
   The fact is, even the *haves* are running short. Do YOU remember when canned Tuna was really good? I do. Now it is barely palatable. In 1975, I ate top quality, relatively cheap Salmon in Seattle & Juneau. Now they are frantic to preserve some semblance of Salmon breeding areas and migrations.....and there are hundreds of other examples. (The fight for a share of the water in the Colorado River never ends)... and did anyone look at that link to the Ogallah aquifer? They are mining water...much faster than it is replenished.

All this is 'partially' a result of "too many people". All that careful use will do, if no reduction in population is achieved, is prolong the inevitable. Look at Easter Island and apply logic.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

Well, another 20 or 50 million years of evolution oughtta "fix" the damage humans have left behind.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM

Excellent Gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM

There is a finite amount of arable land.
Population can keep doubling, but food production can not.
Already rain forest is being sacrificed to grow more food.
Habitats for other life, and biodiversity, are disappearing fast.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: gnu
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:33 PM

Kinda related. Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes - The Joy of Statistics

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

And then, after the shock and the mourning, people all over the globe will likely draw huge breaths of relief.

I don't know about that. but the rich will profit from disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:21 PM

"This, however sad, is not as bad as unceasing growth. We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!

"'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc." Bill D

"I often wonder if a deadly and ferocious virus will arrive,a mutation of, say, the flu', and (as in the Black Death) reduce the population of the Earth by one third. Our greatest enemies, so I believe, are the viruses." Guest/ Eliza

The inevitability of decimation or worse is my belief. Boom and Bust has always been the controlling factor in many species, evidenced every few years all around us.

I see no reason at all why that phenomenon would not apply to us.

And then, after the shock and the mourning, people all over the globe will likely draw huge breaths of relief.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:12 PM

L.H., I would hope you realize that most folks around "here" agree about the gross inequality, and those who nurture it. But people here are relating to the plain fact that we don't have anyone around who can divide up a finite number of loaves and fishes to provide basic sustenance for more than ....?....people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM

slain by the putrefactive and disease bacteria against which their systems were unpre- pared; slain as the red weed was being slain; slain, after all man's devices had failed, by the humblest things that God, in his wisdom, has put upon this earth.

War of the Worlds - H G Wells

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM

The problem isn't too many people. The problem is that a few have a great deal and a great many have very little.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:51 PM

I often wonder if a deadly and ferocious virus will arrive,a mutation of, say, the flu', and (as in the Black Death) reduce the population of the Earth by one third. Our greatest enemies, so I believe, are the viruses.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:21 PM

True enough. But they could still field the biggest Army the planet has ever seen. In fact, the surplus males would probably be easier to recruit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

"China only has what? 300,000,000 fertile women? What ever will they do?"

It may be possible for those women to maintain the population. But unless China departs to a significant degree from the "normal" practice of one of each gender in marriage (nothing to do with same-sex marriage in this context) they are going to have a miserable social situation with a high percent of males with no mates available.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM

By 2035 Moores Law will have advanced us to such a point where every bit of silicon and much of the carbon (thereby solving climate change) on the planet is converted to multigiga hertz/bit processor/memory and humans will abandon corporeal bodies and become part of "the cloud." Of course we will have to pay Bill Gates to license ourselves as software. But that is a small price to pay for immortality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:49 AM

Are you saying the so-called "developing countries" .... are incapable of reaching the level of material and cultural development found in, say, Denmark or Japan? Yes...I am. The people themselves, given the right conditions, 'could'. I am saying that they are unlikely to ever get the right conditions.(VERY long list of reasons, dealing with geography, culture, competition...etc.) They can do 'better' if general population in the rest of the world stabilizes, and I see stabilization as moving far too slowly.



"Populations are either dropping or soon will be dropping in developed countries. " Source? Population rates of increase are dropping in places....population itself is still rising.

"We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!"

"We never will. Point?"
Then how many will we have? 44 billion? Do you think that if we reach 7-8 billion, we will suddenly quit reproducing?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:34 AM

Yeah! China only has what? 300,000,000 fertile women? What ever will they do?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 11:35 PM

Thanks for the smile, olddude...I'll have to watch those gazintas!

Saul, China won't have much fodder for wars if they don't quit killing the girl babies off. There is now a shortage of marriageable aged women, so men have no one with which to produce offspring.

Interesting article from 2008 about China and India's lack of women in Scientific American.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 10:47 PM

"Yes, overpopulation will 'adjust' itself eventually, but NOT in the reasonable, placid way you suggest."

Are you saying the so-called "developing countries" (where most population growth is occurring) are incapable of reaching the level of material and cultural development found in, say, Denmark or Japan?

"Even IF we ALL now agreed to reduce populations to sane levels, it would take decades to approach a 'steady state'... and we ALL are not about to do it."

Populations are either dropping or soon will be dropping in developed countries.   They're dropping in many developing countries, too. The birthrate in the middle east is half what it was a few decades ago. Mexico's birthrate is now roughly equivalent to the United States. If you were really concerned (and not merely wallowing in misanthropy) you would want to see more economic development and modernization, not less.

"The people whom I trust have computed ocean productivity, arable land, accessible fresh water, safe living areas...etc., and estimated that the 'optimum population' is somewhere around 2-2 1/2 billion."

Those numbers are meaningless. Thomas Malthus thought he had the game figured out, too.

"We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!"

We never will. Point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM

Interesting computations, Joe F. Kinda hard to visualize, but still makes you think.

The people whom I trust have computed ocean productivity, arable land, accessible fresh water, safe living areas...etc., and estimated that the 'optimum population' is somewhere around 2-2 1/2 billion. We passed that in the 1950s. We who post on this forum are in reasonably good shape....in Somalia, they are not.... and there is little 'reasonable' land left to build on in S. California.

(this page goes into some detail about calculations)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:03 PM

Let's step back & ask: What can we say in the abstract about the ideal population of the earth?

The ratio of the size of the earth to the size of a human body is about 10^7. (The meter, a human-size unit, was originally defined as 10^{-7} times the quadrant of the earth thru Paris.) That is the order of magnitude of the number of people who, laid end to end, could circle the earth. It is also the order of magnitude of the number who, on rafts in the sea, could all be out of sight of each other (the private-horizon population). We are way past that now.

The square of that number is 10^14. That is the number of people required to cover the earth one layer deep, perhaps leaving a little room to roll over. On a logarithmic scale, at 10^10, we are not quite half way there.

The cube of 10^7 is 10^21. That is the order of magnitude of the population resulting from the conversion of the entire earth into human bodies. There are ethical as well as technical difficulties with such an outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:01 PM

It will **ALWAYS** be an awkward problem when a country's birth rate drops faster than the older generation dies. When there are so many senior citizens that it takes a big chunk of the economy and energy, there are sacrifices to be made....unless.... never mind.

This, however sad, is not as bad as unceasing growth. We cannot have 153 billion people on the Earth!

"'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc."

   Yes, overpopulation will 'adjust' itself eventually, but NOT in the reasonable, placid way you suggest. We humans as a group do NOT take the long view, and most can't see further than their next meal, convenience or perceived immediate threat. We build in flood plains, on mountain sides, in earthquake zones and pour crap into the rivers until the rivers are almost dead. We over fish, use chemicals, and blame shortages on 'them'.
Even IF we ALL now agreed to reduce populations to sane levels, it would take decades to approach a 'steady state'... and we ALL are not about to do it.

   I'm sorry to paint a bleak picture, but channeling Dr. Pangloss (look it up) will not solve anything. "Oh, technology will solve it... technology always has!" ignores the fact that technology has never faced this level of universal dangers. It must have been nice when "more room" just meant moving West and subduing the natives, and "more food" just meant cutting down the jungle/forest and tapping ancient aquifers ...(look up Ogallala_Aquifer.)


"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember why you wanted to drain the swamp."


Trusting 'the experts' to take care of those alligators is dangerous...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:49 PM

I finished the take aways, but before I move on to multiplying I gotta get the gazintas down first. You know 2 gazinta 10 5 times or something like that

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:43 PM

"China's reproduction rate has fallen so low that they're going to be in DEEP trouble in a generation or so. Fewer people of working age to pay into the welfare system than the old people that will be drawing out of it."

Not only that, but the ratio of men to women is also skewed too heavily on the "man" side. Seems female children are not as valued; infanticide and selective abortions "take care of it". That means they have more "fodder" for wars or to work in the mines.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM

Me thinkz we need more fruities and less multipliers...

never mind...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 08:27 PM

Midchuck, They can always outsource to unemployed US workers

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:32 PM

China's reproduction rate has fallen so low that they're going to be in DEEP trouble in a generation or so. Fewer people of working age to pay into the welfare system than the old people that will be drawing out of it.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:27 PM

No reason for a Leviathan state, one-child policies.

Except in China?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:24 PM

In nearly all developed countries, the birthrate is below the replacement level (2.1 children per woman). Countries like Italy, Japan and Russia are losing numbers and will be for the foreseeable future. The United States is the exception, but that for the most part is due to higher birthrates among Hispanics, both immigrants and native-born (check the latest Census figures). Birthrates in Mexico, however, have plummeted in recent years. There is an interesting dynamic going there, one I do not fully understand.

'Overpopulation' is a problem that will take care of itself with economics development, education, rights for women, etc. No reason for a Leviathan state, global one-child policies, or any other such nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:23 PM

I don't know about the fruit but most of us are pretty nutty in the head

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:40 PM

On the bright side.

People today, on this continent and in Europe at least, and Japan, Australia and a few other places are far better off then even the kings of the past.

Chinese, Koreans and Indians are catching up.

We could all cut back a bit on our most wasteful practices and still be very well off.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

What *I* feel is a bit of guilt for leaving my son this world...*I* will likely miss the worst of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 06:30 PM

Looking through this thread and a few others, it's no wonder Jeri said she finds a lot to cry about these days. Maybe it's why I feel a slight depression, today.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:57 PM

At least when the end comes there will be plenty of long pig.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: gnu
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM

Don't worry. The rich are working on a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

""Now Divide,"

Loaves and fishes 'may' have worked once.... I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:37 PM

Be Fruitful and multiply...
pictures of the last of thier species, White Tiger, Panama tree frog, Tasmanian Woman, frozen Wooly Mammoth calf.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,songbob
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM

I have a cartoon on my wall, with two panels. One, entitled, "Be Fruitful and Multiply," shows a crowd of people of many ethnicities. The other, entitled, "Now Divide," shows a single grocery bag with a loaf of bread and a few other items, and a lot of space around the bag.

It's a thought-provoking cartoon, for sure.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:31 PM

"We're all in a sense immigrants...

But that is hardly the point about immigration.... and immigration is not the real point of the thread. It is a side issue, and an important one, but if we get 10-12 billion people, there will be no place worth immigrating TO!

The earth will only support so many warm bodies in anything resembling comfort... and we long ago passed the point ('about' 1950) where it was even mathematically possible to provide for everyone..(water, food, access to amenities). Immigration problems are ONE aspect of the overall concern.... kind of like an indicator.
The universe does not care whether we prosper, or whether cockroaches win out. If WE care enough, we need to wake up and figure it all out.
Imagine an isolated island of, say 100 sq. miles, with good soil, adequate rain and vegetation... and 100 settlers. How many will the island support, and under what conditions? Easter Island, with primitive culture, found out the hard way that certain behavior won't work. Pitcairn Island still manages to keep going. What are the differences? How can we apply those models to Island Earth?

   Think about it.... you will not like some of the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:22 PM

Population will control itself,

There will be wars and rumors of wars...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM

Population control will control itself via a drastic drop in the food supply.

It is one of the horsemen

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 04:28 PM

Are you saying that there is division on the Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: olddude
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:56 PM

Multiplying ?   Some catters haven't got the long division down yet

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM

We're all in a sense immigrants, as the original inhabitants of eg USA or UK were not our ancestors, for the most part.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:44 PM

I don't know about that. There is a shitload in Atlanta. There are even some here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Be fruitful,and multiply'
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

If the Earth's land were divided equally among the 7 billion human inhabitants, there would be 18 acres for each person.

Trouble is, nobody want to live in the undeveloped boonies.

All the new immigrants want to live in California, especially Orange County.