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Practicing...How Much?
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Subject: Practicing...How Much? From: saulgoldie Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:52 PM How much do you practice with your instrument? Coupla times a week for maybe half an hour? Less? Everyday for over an hour? How much time does it take to really improve? How bout voice? I often have trouble getting going. And I am wondering what goals are really practicle. Maintenance, adding lots of songs, polishing the ones I "have" already, adding another instrument to my repertoire? Saul |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Will Fly Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:04 PM Every day, as much as I can. Guitar or tenor guitar or fiddle or mandolin - tunes I know, tunes I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM Saul, do you want to do 20 songs really really well or a hundred that sound not-so-good? IMO, an hour a day is necessary for maintenance, another half for newish stuff or stuff you need/want to work on. You will--if past threads are a prediction of things to come--receive many different answers for your question. At the end of the day, if YOU ain't happy, then what's it all for? |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM And as Will said, for me it's every day, rain or shine, as much as I can. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: DrugCrazed Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM Advantage of guitar is that it's right next to me, and I can always pick it up ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: olddude Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM mostly every day couple of hours, some days I do nothing but play ... some days like the last couple that I did not pick it up cause I was busy with stuff |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:43 PM Adding to what 999 said, you also have the option to work up 100 songs really, really well. All depends what time you can or want to give to the task. Let's say you have 2 hours per week not already taken up with feeding the kids or milking the cows, or whatever the must-do's are in your life. When deciding how to spend your practice time, consider that people typically acquire more muscle-memory more quickly if they practise 20 minutes per day 6 days per week than if they play 2 hours once or 1 hour twice weekly. Learning is better retained by a joyful mind than a frustrated one, so if you get stumped, best to work on something else for a few minutes and come back to the problem passage. If a problem spot continues, break it down into smaller parts to work on or get some help. A pragmatic approach: Look at how long it takes you to learn various components of a song. If it takes 10 minutes per day for and you want to know 10 knew songs a month from now, you can, as they say, do the math: 100 minutes per day. At that rate you'll know a LOT of songs in a year, but do add some practice time for refreshing what's already learned. A tool to help with lyrics: Record yourself reading (spoken or sung); even record it 2 or 3 times at different speeds. Play these back daily for a week or 2. For me, learning words is the slowest part (songs only use so many chords, I've long ago learned most of the one I need); by using a recording this way before I sit down with the guitar, my actual practice time is more productive plus I feel better when I use otherwise wasted (driving) time this way. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: RTim Date: 06 Aug 11 - 02:46 PM Practicing is not that easy if you sing unaccompanied. As I get older, it gets harder and harder, as does learning songs. I use my Ipod and record my songs so that I can play them over and over to remind me; but before a gig I sing them till I am BORED to death of them!! Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:02 PM RTim, just to clarify: What is harder, singing & practising too, or more it's learning new songs? As I get older it takes longer to get a song glued into my memory--regular repetition over time, daily at first, then skip a day, then skip 2, then a week. If I can't sing it through perfectly after setting it aside for a week, it's back to daily or every 2 days, test again in a week or two depending how badly I did. Some of that practice can be mental, doesn't have to be actual singing. Lately I sing a cappella but I've been missing my instruments--one of these days gotta work on rebuilding those calluses...but I digress... I read in a workshop handout last year that aging voices need to be exercised daily, without unnecessary tension, so as to have its best sound available when wanted. I'm just beginning to experience this lately. [sigh] |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: MikeL2 Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:05 PM hi saulgoldie I am with the guys who recommend that you practice just as much as you can; especially if you are learning....but then I find that I am always learning even after all these years!! The form of the practice is pretty well up to you....we are all different. Do what suits you and what you can handle with ease. I tend to divide up my practice time into periods of about half an hour. I fit sometimes two sessions per day up to four depending upon what I am doing at the time. In each session I tend to "mess about" with stuff I already know for approx a half of each session and then try to learn something new or try to perfect something that I am finding difficult to play. At first on the guitar I found that my fingers told me when I had had enough !!! For me I found that when learning a new song, it worked for me to learn the tune and words off by heart first and then the guitar accompaniment and then put the whole thing together. You should try to make practice enjoyable so that it is not a bind to do. I should be something that you want to do. Ok there will be times when you get stuck with something and you may get annoyed. But generally you should try to set your sessions in such a way that you enjoy what you do. One other tip - try to find someone who you can play with occasionally, preferably someone more advanced than you. Good luck Cheers MikeL2 |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: RTim Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM For Crowhugger - I find BOTH more difficult!! Just singing songs that I have known for years is easier if I am not thinking to hard about it, say in the car or while I cook - but singing and learning HOW to sing a new song, and then practicing it, is becoming increasing more difficult - and as for committing to memory - I don't what has happened to my brain!!!! Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM Someone asked the 6 foot, 4 inch Abraham Lincoln, "How long should a man's legs be?" implying that his were much too long. Lincoln responded, "They should be long enough to reach the ground." I try to put in about forty-five minutes to an hour a day on the guitar, starting out with some basic exercises. I took classic guitar lessons off and on for a few years, figuring that this would set me up pretty well for "finger-style" guitar, which it did. I practice scales (yes, scales) to start off with, then different arpeggio patterns. There are whole bunches of them in the Mel Bay "The Complete Carcassi Guitar Method" (Matteo Carcassi was a guitar performer, composer, and teacher in the early 1800s). There are some real finger-busters in that manual, and after practicing some of them, things like Travis picking are duck soup. Then I move on to vocal practice. There, too, I took some voice lessons early on, and I remember some of the vocal exercises my teachers had me working on, so I warm up my voice with them. I have a deep voice (I'm a bass or bass-baritone), and as I got older, my voice deepened even more, and I'm not as strong on my higher notes as I would like to be. I work to keep my voice in good working order, and regular practice is essential. Russian operatic bass Mark Reizen still sounded great at the age of ninety, and I want to also. So without pushing my voice, I want to keep it in good working order. Then I put the two together and sing a number of songs, partly to work the voice and guitar together, but also to keep the songs themselves fresh. And then I work on adding a new song to the repertoire, which, of course, involves working out an accompaniment for it (unless it's something I might want to do without accompaniment). I should put in an hour and a half or two hours every day, but between things interfering and sometimes sheer laziness on my part, I don't always make it. A well-known classic guitar teacher laid out a general program for a productive practice session, and I think the outline holds well for voice too. He said to start off by warming up the fingers (or voice) with scales and exercises, and when well warmed up, tackle a few of the more difficult exercises. Then, move on to playing a few pieces you know. Then, spend some time working on something new. Sounds like a pretty reasonable format to me. If I have a concert or performance coming up, I plan out what I'm going to sing and in what order. I "program" a program for a couple of reasons: I can set up a sort of theme or underlying sequence, breaking a program up into groups of songs that have something in common (as long as you maintain variety within the groups). Then I spend some time polishing my singing of the songs. If I know what the next song is, I won't be sitting there with my guitar on my knee and my finger up my nose wondering what to do next. Your mileage may vary. Don Firth P. S. Also, recording your practice, particularly the singing, or anything you intend to perform for people, is a very good idea. One thing you might ask yourself when listening to the playback is, "If this were on a CD, would I want to buy it?" |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:14 PM An amateur practices a song until he knows it , a Semi Pro practices until he knows it is RIGHT , and a Pro practices until he cant play it wrong ! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:30 PM Incidentally , I havent 'practiced' at all this week , but I have been playing at a session for at least six hours a day , every day ! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Aug 11 - 06:52 PM That makes a big difference. Starting in 1959 and through most of the 1960s, I was playing and singing three nights a week in a coffeehouse, doing maybe a half-dozen concerts a year, and giving guitar lessons during the week. The only time I had to practice was when I was learning something new. But I was constantly adding to the repertoire, so. . . . Also, how much a person practices depends on what they want to do. If they are aspiring toward Carnegie Hall, recording, touring, etc., they have to put in the time and plenty of it. But if they're singing just for the enjoyment of it, then, whatever turns their crank. Or if at occasional open mikes, certainly enough so that people don't sigh and roll their eyes when you step up to the mike. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Bill D Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:12 PM I have NEVER tried to be more than an amateur. I have only sung on stage, into a mic, maybe 10 times. I know a couple hundred songs that I know well enough to 'work up'...maybe a couple dozen of them that I can 'do' pretty well anytime, but 30-40 that I can do well enough to lead without too much embarassment. ☺ Practice? Now & then, when it moves me (and before a sing or festival)...much less than I used to when folk music was my major hobby. (The last 15 years, woodworking has demanded much of my energy) I LIKE folk music... I just don't have that 'fire in the belly' to master it....but by golly, I have had almost 50 years of fun doing it and sharing it and listening to it! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Aug 11 - 09:16 PM RTim, problems learning new songs would drive me nuts! Goddesses willing and the creek don't rise, I have 25 years yet 'til memory issues complicate learning lyrics--and touch wood it doesn't happen at all. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM I thought 3-6-9 was supposed to help that. I've taken a ton of fish oil, gallons of borage oil and seas of flax seed oil. I still can't remember squat, but sure as hell I don't squeak and the rain simply flows off me back.! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:55 PM LOL... |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,SeanSiegfried Date: 06 Aug 11 - 11:57 PM I practice in several bursts, that probably amount to about 3-4 hours a day. I wish it was more, as I'm a full-time musician, albeit not performing at the moment (working on an album). Last year I was practising a lot more each day but you go through phases, with different levels of motivation I guess. With the guitar in particular, like people have said, smaller more regular spots of practice throughout the week are much better for retaining your muscle strength, timing, dexterity, etc. I think another key is to ALWAYS challenge yourself, if you have the time to do so and everything. I've spent the last few years periodically hunting down pieces that are that bit beyond my ability and learning them bit by bit. Singing is another matter for me, though. Perhaps because I've just started; I've learnt a small handful of Bert Jansch songs and I'll sing fine one day and absolutely terrible the next. There seems to be no control or consistency - I hope that it'll get a bit better with experience as it's driving me to distraction! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Will Fly Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:09 AM I'll sing fine one day and absolutely terrible the next. There seems to be no control or consistency Been there - my sympathies. As far as singing is concerned, I think it's important to sing every day - and sing in the key(s) in which you would sing in front of a live audience. It's all too easy to sing comfortably at home and then find, when you're singing out to an audience, that you need to be a tone up, for example. I also find that, if I don't sing every day - at a volume which will fill the street where I live (lord help the neighbours) - I might struggle a bit at the next live performance. The voice is an instrument and, like a violin which dies a little if not played regularly, needs regular exercise and use. So - when you sing your Bert Jansch songs - pitch them at a level which will project to a live audience (even though Bert's a bit of a mumbler sometimes), and sing them every day. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM practice till you can do it - confidently. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: stallion Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM It is interesting Tim that we are both finding it more difficult to learn new songs, melody ok words a bugger. I "tweak" songs and I am currently tweaking Jolly Waggoner to fit my families experience of waggoning. The first two verses as the Watersons with the three new ones from moi, first two come out like changing gears in a car but I really have to concentrate on the three new ones! My usual modus operandi is to hum the tune constantly with the first verse and chorus going through my head and then build it up line by line, very boring for people to listen to as I may sing one line over and over again all day til I get it right but hey someone has to suffer for my art! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Jane of 'ull Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:21 AM That's interesting what you said about muscle memory, Crowhugger. I think you're right. I find that for fiddle, half an hour bursts at the moment are just right. Anyone got tips on how to motivate yourself to practise when you're tired after the working day? This is my main problem. I do more practise on a weekend, that's for sure. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:46 AM Instrument: Currently I'm playing about an hour most nights but I'm not sure what that is achieving. To keep my hand in playing in a reasonably good standard Irish session, I feel I need to play (preferably in the session - I think there is a difference between "training" and "match practice") about once a fortnight. To progress, at the moment, I'd say I need rather more than an hour a night. Voice: I've not done anything at home in years and have rarely done more than learn a new song at home. At one time I used to sing at least once a week but now it's more like three times a year. My range has decreased a little and I can't sing as strongly as I did when I was doing rather more but I get by well enough for the small singaround events round here on doing nothing... Except for remembering the words. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: saulgoldie Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:56 AM Thanks for all the helpful comments. I can see that I need to work on time budgeting and reasonable expectations. Saul |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Musket Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:49 AM I recall speaking to Ralph McTell a good few years ago, when I was MC at a concert he was part of. I asked him if he ever felt pressure that lots of his audience are, as well as those who love his music in general, musicians who put him on a bit of a pedestal regarding his guitar style and technique. He said it works like this; he may be a good guitarist and there are those who wonder how he does it. Perhaps if they practiced every day for at least two hours, regardless of whether there was a concert last night and a concert tonight.. Perhaps they will eventually answer their own question. I was rather taken by that. Mind you, I don't manage the time, and hence I get cross with myself when I get something wrong that a few years ago I might have got right every time. Funny that... |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Stringsinger Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM Distributive practice is better than mass practice. After a long time, the information to your fingers decrease. 15 minute increments throughout the day is better than five hours on one day and then skipping a day. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Bill D Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM Will Fly said: "As far as singing is concerned, I think it's important to sing every day " Indeed! I can hear melodies just fine, and I can correct others often if they miss a note... but without regular use of the singing voice, I often can't reproduce a tune that I hear perfectly well in my head. There needs to be constant reinforcement of the brain/muscle connection. My wife LOVES to sing, and I hear her going over songs while doing other things. I seem to have great difficulty doing 2 things at once, and if I sing while doing certain tasks, something suffers...and in a woodworking shop, that can be awkward. When I am learning a song or practicing an old one, I usually must be doing nothing else. (I 'suspect' this is related to the reason some people close their eyes when singing to a group...to avoid distraction.) |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest Downunder Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:16 PM That NY Times best seller from a couple of years ago Music and the Brain (or something like that) said studies indicate that to master something musical you need to put in 20 hours a week ... that's 3 hours a day ... fat chance around here ... my vocal practice makes the garage door go up and down on its own and even the dog gets up and goes when I pick up my banjo ... |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:06 PM Another book, The Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell, sub-titled "The Story of Success," says something similar as G.Downunder mentions are in Music and the Brain (if that's the exact title). Outliers is not focused only on music but any kind of excellence you want to acquire. But in reference to music, Gladwell reported on studies proving that practice is the great equalizer: Those who achieved highest honours at their instruments (I forget the precise context, the passage was read to a group, I don't have the book) had practised about 10,000 hours to get there. It would appear that "I have no talent" means nothing if you are willing to work your ass off. The musical director who read from the book also mentioned the importance of doing the work with joy, but maybe she got that from one of the chorus' coaches. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM It would appear that "I have no talent" means nothing if you are willing to work your ass off. I'm not sure but think I disagree with you there. I believe that hard work can to some degree make up for little natural ability, that natural ability can to some degree make up for lack of hard work but if one is talking about sort of virtuoso levels, I believe one needs both natural ability and hard work. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:22 PM When I can't play something, and i want to - i practice. Its the the best thing about being a musician - your relationship with the instrument. i wake up thinking about it. Go to sleep at night with it on my mind. I know its not like that for everybody, I can't get worked up about just any music, but once I am interested, I have to go for it. This two hours a day come rain or shine, death and serious injury business - sounds like rubbish to me. Wait for inspiration, and the desire for perfection. then five hours a day is nothing. when I haven't got some music to obsess about - I get depresssed. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:23 PM I think that those with natural talent in certain areas will grow at their art/craft exponentially. But at the end of the day, without consistent practice, the natural ability will atrophy just as do the muscles and reflexes of athletes who let their training go. Be the best you can, and the rest will sort itself out. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Crowhugger Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:34 PM Big Al, just to be clear, it's Malcolm Gladwell with whom you disagree, not me. I too have doubts about what was read to me, but until it's my turn to borrow the book and I've read it, I won't know if the methodology in the cited studies is suspect or not. For sure it doesn't take 10,000 hours practice to sound brilliant on many stages or around a campfire or song circle. Heart and soul are a significant part of the performer's art, and it will be interesting to learn where (if?) that fits into Gladwell's picture, at least when he's considering musical achievement. As I mentioned, he was looking at excellence in other areas too, not just music. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Aug 11 - 10:21 PM I'm not sure I disagree with anyone. Its just how it seems for me. I'm not super talented. I remember I asked a friend of Ken Nicols, how long he'd been that good. He said, Ken's been that good since he was 19years old. If I had that much talent, I suppose I wouldn't need to practice so much. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Leadfingers Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:28 AM I forget now who it was , after a concert being told "You are SO lucky to be able to play like that" replying - " Yes ! And the more I practice the luckier I get!" |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:43 AM BETTERBEST
Never Let it Rest Until Your...
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: PoppaGator Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:26 PM Too much is never enough! I try to play my guitar at least a little bit every day. If nothing else, I think it's important to at least tune up every day; when I don't, I find that I start having difficulty tuning quickly and accurately when I have to. I am not making any kind of effort to work professionally, but for a few years now, I've had a regular once-a-month time slot at a "basket house" type coffeehouse. This kind-of forces me to practice regularly whether or not I'm busy or in-the-mood during any particular period of time. Some months, I have new material ready to go for my little show and am sharp as a tack; other months, I've been distracted (slacking off) and need to squeeze in a couple of hasty practice sessions during the last week before my scheduled performance. Forces me to keep my hand in. I've gotten involved in choral singing for about the past year. Keeps my voice in practice, better than ever, but my instrumental practice has fallen off a bit. C'est la vie... |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: Rusty Dobro Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:20 AM One answer for all married men: as much as she'll let me! |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:30 AM Does the word horseshit mean anything to you? |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:34 AM When asked, how can you do all that, and play like you do, This violinist/fiddler, answered simply, "Practise, Practise, Practise" and she is absolutely correct! Normally, I'm either working, practicing or performing! When I take a quick break, I come up to the office, and yak at you guys! By the way, and for what its worth...it was that violinist/fiddler, who mentioned the 'Mudcat Forum', originally to me....and while looking for it, I found it quite by happenstance! Don't be mad at her!!!! Wink!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:38 AM OHH, and BTW....NOTICE..She NEVER, in that piece even looks at her hands, violin, or neck!! "Practise, Practise, Practise!!" Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:43 AM My email is irishacestry at gmail dot com I never gave an address that wasn;t mine to anyone. Bruce M. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:48 AM What was that about, Bruce?..Were you addressing that to me? GfS |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM Yes. |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:44 PM Well, I could give mine, but may I ask for 'Why?'..I don't give out any info on me, on here..but I'd be glad to help you, if I can. Does it have something to do with my last couple of posts? GfS |
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Subject: RE: Practicing...How Much? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:54 PM Gargoyle, Your post is WONDERFULLY practical!! I salute you!! GfS |
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