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BS: Racial specificity in jokes
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Subject: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:16 AM ... observations of a a taxonomical pedant! A Jewish friend sent me a pretty standard Wife's Unexpected Return To Find Husband Screwing Strange Young Woman joke... But in his version it was a Jewish Wife & Husband. I am often exercised by the question of WHY Jews will always tell ANY joke as a specifically Jewish joke, complete with cod Yiddish pronunciation {"Oy vey, vy Becky vy!"}, when there is nothing specifically Jewish about the occurrences ~~ why could this one not have been about an Italian, or a Brooklynite, or a Muscovite, or a Yorkshireman ~~ or just "a guy"? What exclusively 'Jewish' about resentment of marital infidelity &/or middle-aged impotence [which was the payoff line]? I once knew a guy who started, have you heard the Jewish joke about ..., and I replied, yes, but when I heard it, it was an Irish joke. And a friend of my parents would tell the 'man who wanted to borrow money went to bank & said to teller "Are you the loan arranger?" ~ "No, I'm Wyatt Earp"' joke as a Jewish joke ··("No, I'm Vyatt Earp")··, which made no sense to me at all. Sometime, of course, the joke does concern a particular [what is regarded as] Jewish attribute; but most often not ~~ seems to me that some Jews can ONLY tell Jewish jokes; & if the joke isn't one then they MAKE it one. And is my impression correct that it is particularly Jews who do this, or do Italians or Muscovites or Brooklynites or Yorkshiremen tend to do it also? Any views on this? ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Gurney Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:51 AM Yes they do. the Irish tell jokes about 'Irish logic', Dutchmen and Scots and Yorkshiremen tell jokes about tight-fisted fellow-countrymen, Canadians tell jokes about Newfies... It's safer than telling jokes about each other! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:25 AM even the black lady is laughing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Doug Chadwick Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:33 AM ..... "Are you the loan arranger?" ~ "No, I'm Wyatt Earp"' joke as a Jewish joke ··("No, I'm Vyatt Earp")··, which made no sense to me at all. Perhaps your parents' friend was playing on the stereotypical Jewish money lender, as Shakespeare did with Shylock. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:43 AM Easy peasy How do you know when a Jewish woman is having an orgasm? She drops her nail file. How do you know when a Rotherham woman is having an orgasm? She drops her bag of chips. Ad nauseum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:11 AM The loan arranger only makes sense as an Italian joke, because of the common assumption of what an Italian accent is. The only Jewish joke I know that is safe (ish) for a non-Jew to tell is the one about "the synagogue I don't go to" because it is not racially derogatory and almost demonstrates an attempt to understand. There is another that is almost safe involving a list of personal defects including a "lapp and a galah" end ending "ein schiener Yid" but it involves learning a long list of yiddish words and pronouncing them well enough not to sound silly or insulting as such. I was told this by one of my Jewish partners in a lawfirm quite a few years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: artbrooks Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:15 AM My brother-in-law, who is half Polish and half Italian, tells mostly Polish and Italian jokes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: TheSnail Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:50 AM the one about "the synagogue I don't go to" Is that the same as the Welsh joke about "the chapel I don't go to"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:11 AM The only Jewish joke I know that is safe (ish) for a non-Jew to tell is the one about "the synagogue I don't go to" because it is not racially derogatory and almost demonstrates an attempt to understand. Surely there are very many 'Jewish' jokes which can be 'safely' told without causing offence. Such as: The young lady who, after a night on the town, fell asleep on the steps of the local synagogue. She awoke with a heavy dew on her. Young lad, sat on the synagogue steps crying. The Rabbi tries to comfort him: "What's the matter" The boy replies "I've lost my pullover" And the Rabbi start crying too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Will Fly Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:28 AM The Jewish joke that tickles me the most was told to me by my best friend of over 40 years standing - who happens to be Jewish: An old, poor Jewish man turned and prayed to God one day. "Lord," he said fervently, "all my life I've been a good man. I've never strayed from the paths of righteousness. I've been faithful to my wife and family, and been a good friend to my community. But I'm poor - please help me. Help me to win the Lottery." At once the heavens opened and a deep voice replied, "I will help you to win the lottery, my son." Weeks passed and still the old Jewish man was poor. Again he turned to God and said, "Lord, I asked you for help to win the lottery. All my life I've been a good man. I've never strayed from the paths of righteousness. I've been faithful to my wife and family, and been a good friend to my community. But I'm poor - please help me. I ask you again - help me to win the Lottery." Again the heavens opened, and a deep voice - sighing slightly - said, "Meet me halfway. Buy a ticket..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:54 AM Er - no Nigel I think those are probably offensive. Yes, Snail, it sounds similar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: GUEST,john f weldon Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:04 AM An Indian friend tells the same stories as Sikh jokes. Let's just substitute Klingons & Vulcans, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:57 PM Will Fly ~~ that joke of yours about buying the ticket was the one I mentioned in the OP which I heard as an Irish joke... No-one has really got my point: all you are doing is either telling Jewish jokes or saying who else tells jokes about their own lot, neither of which [please see OP] is really my point at all. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Don Firth Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM Some jokes pretty much have to be "ethnic specific." They wouldn't work otherwise. Case in point: A man's watch stops working. So on his lunch hour, while walking down the street, he sees a shop with a big clock hanging over the door and a bunch of clocks and watches in the show-window. So he goes inside. There is a man wearing a yarmulke sitting behind the counter. He say, "Can I help you??(Told me by Elmar Lanczos) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Don Firth Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:55 PM Others are flexible. "Why won't a (fill in nationality of your choice) ever swat a fly?"or "Why do they always have a garbage can at a (national or ethnic group) wedding?"(From my nephew when he was only eight years old.) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: artbrooks Date: 22 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM I think (but I'm not sure) that the original question/point was: 'is it only Jews who can tell only Jewish jokes' (or maybe it was 'is it only Jews who have to make every joke a Jewish joke') 'or do other groups do the same thing?'. {Parse THAT punctuation. pedants!} IMHO, most people who aren't seriously into insulting others will make a joke that seems to require a racial/ethnic/religious/distinguishing characteristic identity into one that doesn't gratuitously insult somebody else, and the best way to do that is to tell it on your own group. On the other hand, people like me who are multi-ethnic and non-religious are somewhat handicapped in that sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: olddude Date: 22 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM One thing I am sure of is all people of any background have a sense of humor ... and so do blonds with blond jokes ... I tell Irish Jokes .. cause ya I am Irish |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: gnu Date: 22 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM If a joke is good, EVEN if it is "ethnic", it is good and it doesn't matter WHO tells it as long as the person it is told to has a sense of humour. I live by "Fuck em if they can't take a joke." Life is too hard not to have a laugh... as long as it's a good joke. Sometimes, a joke sucks... might even be abusive to some... but I overlook that, voice my negative opinion and move on. But I seldom deride someone for attempting to make a joke unless it is truely offensive and that has to be pretty far out for me to do so. One of the hottest comics these days is Russel Peters. A Canuck of Indian heritage. His humour is substantially ethnic and people eat it up... because he is making fun of the stereotypes, the imperception between cultures. He is making fun of humans and their inadequacies at UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER. Google that ethnic humour by Russel Peters and if you don't laugh, well... I think you know vahtyoucandobuddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Doug Chadwick Date: 22 Aug 11 - 06:33 PM MtheGM From your opening post: I am often exercised by the question of WHY Jews will always tell ANY joke as a specifically Jewish joke... From your subsequent post: No-one has really got my point... I think that I tried to address your question but perhaps you missed it. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Joe_F Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:55 PM Here's an antique Jewish joke that has to be Jewish: Two old Jews are together at a public meeting, and the speaker uses the phrase "between Scylla and Charybdis". One of them nudges the other & asks "What does that mean?" The other says, a little doubtfully, "I think they are two notorious Rumanian antisemites." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:35 PM I don't get the one about the pullover. We tend to tell ethnic jokes as in, an ethnic walks into a bar... and that way let people fill in what they want. I also call my pile of borrowed things my ethnic pile, since they should all go back where they came from. Hee hee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:44 AM Doug ~~ Yes, up to a point, in a specific instance; tho I don't think your interpretation as to why "Vyatt Earp" would altogether explain it. I mean, what banks have exclusively Jewish customers & staff?, seems to me the point at issue here. But as to why some Jews must make all the characters in their jokes Jews, even when such ethnicity is no-way relevant, and whether any other demographics have this tendency ~~ no-one yet appears to have commented. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Will Fly Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:54 AM Well here's a comment, Michael - just a personal view. The Jew's place in society since the diaspora has traditionally been that of an outsider, added to which is their own sense of the importance of their ethnicity. Given that humour is simultaneously a defence against the world and a statement of culture and cultural attitudes, you could say - for example - that Jewish humour is self-deprecating as a reinforcement of their character and culture. Jackie Mason's humour is typical of the style - making fun of both gentile and Jewish cultures - and reinforces a sense of community while mocking it. The joke that I posted is, I think, an instance of that second to none - and it's why it's a favourite among Jewish people that I know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:04 AM Thanks, Will. I take your points about 'outsiderdom' &c; but still don't quite see why that makes this compulsion to introduce a Jewish element into neutral, non-ethnically-specific jokes so widespread among that particular ethnic group. Interesting that the "at least buy a ticket" joke should have come to me as an Irish, rather than a Jewish, joke. It will, though, will it not, fit either category as traditionally perceived? But it is, oddly, not one that I have ever IIRC heard from any of my Jewish acquaintance. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:06 AM ... lest I appear to be here contradicting a point previously made, the man who began "have you heard the Jewish joke about the lottery?", for me only to quote back the punchline to him as one I had heard as an Irish joke, was not Jewish himself. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Will Fly Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:16 AM Well, you might say that Jewish people were unique in the way they were treated over thousands of years, that their society-within-societies was unique, and that the inward-looking nature of their humour is a reflection. And that is why, perhaps more than other nation/race, the Jew is made to be the centre of the joke. Reversing the proposition for the moment, like many schoolboys I was brought up on the "There was an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman" joke set - some of which I can, unfortunately, remember over 50 years later! However, recollection tells me that, in many of these jokes, the Englishman came out top and the butt of the joke was the Irishman. Another cultural viewpoint and reinforcement? Or were they just told to me that way... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 07:39 AM Will ~~Surely it was always "An Englishman, an Irishman & a Scotsman"? The rhythm of the order you give just feels subtly wrong to me; but of course I know better than to try and dispute as to a "correct" version of any traditional artefact! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: artbrooks Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM @MtheGM: I gather you missed my earlier comment on your question. IMHO, most people who aren't seriously into insulting others will make a joke that seems to require a racial/ethnic/religious/distinguishing characteristic identity into one that doesn't gratuitously insult somebody else, and the best way to do that is to tell it on your own group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:34 AM Read The Joys of Yiddish by Rosten or The Encyclopedia of Jewish Humor by Spalding. They both answer your OP, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:35 AM No, artbrooks, I didn't. But you seem to have missed my point that Jews will make a joke into one about Jewish people, even when it is one that does not "seem to require a racial/ethnic/religious/distinguishing characteristic identity", as you put it. In other words, I am exercised as to why Jews will always start off, "There was this Jewish man who"..., and then go on to tell a story which has no specific Jewish, or other specific ethnic, content whatseoever, adding to it an accent which in no way enhances the completely neutral [from an ethnic POV] anecdote being told. See what I mean? The question of avoiding ethnic insult doesn't arise, or of neutralising those feelings of separateness which Will invokes, because the nature of the story suggests no such necessity. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:41 AM And, Guest 999, those books don't answer my OP point. They list or deal with jokes on what are specifically traditionally regarded as Jewish characteristics. They do not answer my query as to why a Jew would [perhaps I exaggerate, but I feel only slightly] ask the familiar first riddle we all ever heard in the form: "Why did the Jewish chicken cross the Jewish road? To get to the other Jewish side ~~ oy vey!" ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: artbrooks Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:15 AM Oh, that was your point! Interesting. Nothing I've ever heard happen, and my wife is Jewish, but interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:59 AM Leo Rosten, the great Jewish writer and authority on Jewish humor, listed as one of the characteristics of Jewish humor revenge over the oppressor by the use of guile or circumstance. This is such a story: Moshe was sitting at the bar staring at his drink when a large, trouble-making biker steps up next to him, grabs his drink and gulps it down in one swig and menacingly says, "Thanks Jew Boy, whatcha going to do about it?" Moshe burst into tears. "Come on, man," the biker says, "I didn't think you'd CRY. I can't stand to see a man crying. What's your problem?" "This is the worst day of my life," Moshe says. "I'm a complete failure. I was late to a meeting and my boss fired me. When I went to the parking lot, I found my car had been stolen and I don't have any insurance. I left my wallet in the cab I took home. I found my wife in bed with the postman and then my dog bit me." "So I came to this bar to work up the courage to put an end to it all. I buy a drink; drop a capsule in and sit here watching the poison dissolve; then you show up and drink the whole thing! "But enough about me, how's your day going?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:33 AM Yes ~ you make my point, 99. Rosten lists "characteristics of Jewish humour". I know: I have read him. But my point is that Jews people their stories with exclusively Jewish characters, even when none of such characteristics are present. Why? Artbrooks ~~ ask your wife if she didn't have an uncle or some such who did this? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Racial specificity in jokes From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:46 PM Some jokes don't work without specifying the ethnic group - e.g. how many ethnics does it take to shingle a roof? (Depends how thin you slice'm...) |
