BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

biLL: ".......the country is so irrational .... so fucked up .... it must be on something."

Amen!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:20 PM

why not give everyone in the whole damned country a drug test .... something must be wrong .... the country is so irrational .... so fucked up .... it must be on something.

biLL .. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

Given what we have seen lately, Wesley, I'd say that drug testing in Congress would wipe the joint out...

(You said "joint", boberdz???)

Never mind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:56 PM

Well Bobert - if we got Congress to pee in a cup we might eliminate a few of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:18 PM

Hey, let's institute drug testing on every defense contractor, every lobbyist, every government contractor, every teacher, every guy who works for contractors who build bridges that get government money, every congressional staffer, everyone who get any government service such as fire or police protection, everyone who breathes good ol' polluted US air, etc...

Lets get real here, folks... The Taliban is alive and well in the US and holed up at the Tea Party headquarters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:34 PM

Why would the big drug companies allow the "recreational" drugs to be legalized? They've established huge corporate empires with the current set of laws in place. They would lose massive profits if the system were to change - so it's simply not going to happen. To think otherwise would be - a "pipe dream".

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM

"has anyone suggested legalizing drugs - yes all of them?? "

sure .... I'm for legalizing it all. Best we can do to keep it into some sort of legit marketing firms.

but

what's legalizing drugs have to do with the subject of this thread?

"there's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes. Jesus Christ died for nothing I suppose"

legal, or not legal .... that's where all the money goes.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:01 PM

Guest,999. What I did was post another point of view, that was an answer to the lame excuses about the constitutionality of drug testing. Frankly, I AGREE with you. Not only that, I think Presidential candidates should prove their citizenship, and other qualifications, BEFORE being nominated. I also think that the federal government should side with the citizens of OUR people, and not file suit against states, such as Arizona, for enforcing laws the the feds, refuse to, and siding with drug cartels of a foreign country, over our own citizens.....but then, would they really be representing the people to whom they are in bed with??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 12:49 PM

In Canada random alcohol/drug testing of employees in safety-sensitive positions is legal if it is a reasonable requirement that alchohol and or drugs can indicate actual impairment of ability to perform essentual duties.

And thank God for that .... I certainly would not want that Air Canada pilot flying the plane I'm in to have a drug dependancy.

Where a friend of mine works an employee recently was found doing a line of coke in the washroom. That certain employee could not be fired. They did have to mandatory attend some rehab sessions. As if that would help.

The problem as I see it is not drugs/alchohol in itself, but why is society so needy that drugs/alchohol are so widely acceptable ... are we so fucked up that we have to get buzzed to get through life,or to have a good time. ... but then again, what the hell do I know.

Personally I think welfare recepients should be drug tested, along with every elected politician. If we cannot afford adequate health care for our seniors, children, if we cannot afford a decent education for the young then maybe we should rethink of where are tax doallars really do go to, and rethink on who is spending our tax dollars.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:26 AM

That sounds good to me too. All elected officials should step up and pee in a cup if they expect to get paid by the taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM

"It's completely legal that every other working person had to pass a drug test in order to have a J-O-B that supports those on welfare!"

First, that's a fabrication. You posit that it's completely legal. The jury's still out.

I keep hoping that the Florida government elected members will step up and undergo voluntary drug tests. Lead by example.

How about THAT?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:01 AM

And then from the 'other side' of the debate:

Florida is the first state that is now going to require drug testing for welfare! Some people are crying this is unconstitutional. How is this unconstitutional? It's completely legal that every other working person had to pass a drug test in order to have a J-O-B that supports those on welfare!

So, what do you say to that?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:04 PM

Well Dorothy - Drugs will not be legalized. But I can just see the Republicians having to back off of their stance that an unregulated marketplace is the best thing since indoor toilets. Right now they say that regulations kill jobs. I bet they'd be singing a different tune if pot , meth and smack were sold openly.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

I have never done drugs nor do I have any intention of doing so but--psssssssswhooooosh--I think the lady has an idea there.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:26 PM

Having beaten this subject into the ground, maybe I missed it but has anyone suggested legalizing drugs - yes all of them??

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM

Sorry if this was posted before... So, this would be a "Unine You're Out" program?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 12:13 PM

if you want out badly enough, you will get out

Suicide being the way, much of the time. As you said, josepp, you "don't care where you live or how bad the situation is..." And there are an awful lot of people who see it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM

" rediscovering 'community' and refusing to play the good little 'consumer' role mapped out for them by the corporations."

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Andrez
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:49 AM

No worries Guest 999, I was referring to the two books and hadn't looked at the video's myself.

Religion specially the US fundamentalist, born again kind, is bad enough as it is but when it is aligned with neoliberal social values and economics and all the right wing political baggage associated with that, its easy to see whose interests are being served and they are not those of ordinary citizens!

As I said before, how about people looking much more closely at business welfare and asking who is benefitting from that and then asking in the words of the famous Julius Sumner Miller: "Why is this so"? and then taking it a step further and doing something about it either at the ballot box or by rediscovering 'community' and refusing to play the good little 'consumer' role mapped out for them by the corporations.

Sadly the US isnt the only stage on which this tawdry B grade anti-humanitarian movie is being played out.

:-(

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

"Yep, obviously good idea, should double the petty crime in the area so that addicts can buy their next fix. Really joined up thinking. Not. "

Exactly my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:19 AM

Well said, Andrez. The brief video (3:50 ish I think) was a bit too "come to Jesus" for me, but if I ever do find religion, that's the kinda religion I could get behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:18 AM

Kendall is on the money... The crime rate went down drastically in Richmond when the Methadon Clinic opened...

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Andrez
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 09:13 AM

All this talk about the deserving or non deserving poor!

Why aren't people looking at business welfare in the form of the tax breaks and other massive government subsidies and asking why this kind of welfare is OK but not the other kind that goes to people who are essentially victims of the American dream (sic)!

What is so hard to understand that the interests of business and the political and religious power elites that support them are NOT evenly remotely aligned with the interests of ordinary people, whether they are working currently or not? If people in the US took this on board the outcome of the next elections could look quite different.

There is nothing revolutionary about this its just stating the bleedin' obvious!

Drug testing people, the victims of changes to the social and economic relationship between the individual and the state whose consequences were NEVER spelt out in black and white before they were voted on and implemented by government is an appalling attack on human rights and basic, common decency...... all those things that the US is supposedly trying to bring to other countries.... at the barrel of a gun mind you!

> JiK the bureaucratic process you detailed above is just simply appalling on an other level entirely by any standard.

While on the matter of drugs, if government subsidies and tax breaks to big business were reduced/eliminated so that the fate of these companies was left to the judgement of the all powerful, all knowing 'market', then perhaps the execs whose bonuses (and drug habits) are subsidised by the ordinary taxpayer might find themselves on welfare and having a taste of the system they've helped to inflict on every one else. Next GFC let 'em go under. That goes for the politicians too!

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: I repeat, the interests of individuals, families and communities are NOT and never will be aligned. IF you believe otherwise you have been conned, hook line and sinker. If you want toe explore tis a little further have a read of Joe Bageants book: Deer Hunting with Jesus to get a sense of the extent to which Americans (and by definition the rest of the western economies) have been screwed by business welfare sucking Corporations.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM

Thank you, kat, for the "Cycling" article...

Yes, some mothers do... Most don't... But lets look at a rather typical mother who does... She is about to receive here last assistance check and must now go to work or be homeless with 2-3 children... Dad/s??? Long gone...

So she takes the only job she can get... Usually Walmart, K-Mart or a fast food restaurant making minimum wage of roughly $7.25 an hour and now must figure out how to live on that... Remember, even if she is in a HUD project she still has to pay a percentage of her income for rent... Then there's cost of food which Food Stamps helps but doesn't cover... Here are the kickers... She has to pay for child care while she is at work and she must be able to get to work...

And she has to do all this on $7.25 an hour??? Good luck... So she ends up owing the people for everything she isn't able to cover just about the time she come back into eligibility...

And the beat goes on, and on, and on...

If we want to end welfare then we need to jack the minimum wage up to $15 and hour and even then it's gonna be tough...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:34 AM

I worked for the U.S. Government 1970-1996, and then my job was privatized and I worked as a contractor until 2001. Every time there was an administration change, we were affected by the pet projects of the current administration. During the 1972 presidential election campaign we soldiers overseas who supported McGovern were investigated. Then there was Management By Objectives, which required us to play silly games. And there an administration that insisted that government employees should write well, so they had high school graduates teach us English from workbooks, even though our jobs required a college degree. And then there was the Reagan Administration, with its "just say no" /Drug-Free America campaign. The administration decided that all 700 of us investigators in the Office of Personnel Management would be subjected to random drug testing, even though our agency had never had a problem with drug abuse and our job wasn't hazardous. So, we were supposed to check in with the boss every morning to see if we were to be tested that day. If we were scheduled, then we had to drop everything, cancel all appointments, and run off to pee in a cup.

It was demeaning, and it was a real crimp on our efficiency. The ACLU recruited two of my California coworkers to sue the government on this issue, and we won. They put a stop to the random drug testing before the program was put in place, and testing was limited to hazardous positions and to employees suspected of having a drug problem.

It seems to me that most mass drug testing is done to make a political point, and it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference unless it's targeted at a group that really needs testing.

It seems to me that whether people use drugs or not, they need the basic subsistence provided by welfare payments. If they use the money for drugs, then that's their problem.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:00 AM

John in Kansas' post regarding SSI is pretty good, but there are some errors in his information.

The Supplemental Security Income , aka SSI, was established in 1974.

For adults, The definitions of aged, blind or disabled are legally identical for SSI and Social Security, and when applies for one, application is automatically made for the other. The only difference in the two programs for adults is that SSI is also "means tested." That makes the process for an adult (I don't know much about the process or eligibility for disabled children) applying for SSI disability every bit as difficult and delayed in terms of establishing disability as it is for Social Security Disability, but not more so. In fact, in most, perhaps all states, when an adult makes application for benefits based on disability, applications for both SSI and SSD are automatically and simultaneously generated and handled by the same agency.

None of which has anything to do with the issues around a requirement for a negative drug test in order to receive a welfare check.

Philosophies are great, and necessary. So is self-interest. But people, step outside of both and use your good brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 11:03 PM

gnu: "Maybe they should get their dog stoned. It might stop chasing it's tail... unlike what this thread is doing."

OK!..This thread gets this too!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 10:16 PM

It looks as though there is good information, in detail, about who receives welfare benefits and a myriad of other related details at MDRC (Manpower Demonstration Research Corporation).

Of particular interest might be their A Profile of Families Cycling on and off Welfare .

I make NO claims as to their information and know nothing about them except what I've just seen on their website which I just found, but it looks worthy of further reading, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:56 PM

Do you really understand how "welfare" has worked since Welfare Reform Act in 1996, joez???

Google it up... Your stereotypical generalization is, ahhhhh, bogus... These people haven't existed since 1996... They can't just stay on welfare anymore... Check it out...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM

/////Josepp, if there were any jobs to start with would they be on welfare?////

I've known people on welfare. I knew a whole network of them They don't want to work and THAT is why they are on welfare.   Not because there are no jobs. They expend more energy finding ways to avoid working than they would if they just went to work. The few who really wanted out of it got out of it.

I don't care where you live or how bad the situation is--if you want out badly enough, you will get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:33 PM

////Not hardly.

"Drug testing is bullshit. But if one group of people can legally be subject to it nonvoluntarily, then everybody should be legally subject to it nonvoluntarily..."

Your statement.////

Where did I say I want people to be subject to rules worse than I have to follow, you fucking ctupid asshole? Your words.

---

Guest, choose a moniker and USE IT consistently or your posts will be deleted. Thank you -- Mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:26 PM

And what makes you think that it would be any different with a national health service?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 03:48 PM

Another good reason for a national health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 03:37 PM

Good point Wesley. And, it IS their perogative.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM

I think you'll find that often it's the insurance companies that provide the medical insurance that are requiring the drug tests at a lot of employers. No random tests - no insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM

I don't believe in drug testing for any reason without probable cause because I believe it's unreasonable search & seizure. If someone applying for benefits has a documented drug problem, then sure, test them. If they have no history of drug abuse, why should they be tested?

I got laid off from my job of 15 years back in April, and I was pretty stunned to discover that most prospective employers now want a drug test, or at least say they *might* want one. Now, I don't have a dang thing to hide, but unless someone has reason to believe I might be using, I don't think they have a right to test me.

But I'm just an unfrozen caveman and don't understand all these modern ways. I was able to get a new job without a drug test, although the official application states that the university might ask for a pre-employment test.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM

Create straw men much?

Not hardly.

"Drug testing is bullshit. But if one group of people can legally be subject to it nonvoluntarily, then everybody should be legally subject to it nonvoluntarily..."

Your statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

"But their benfits run out anyway--I believe they expire in 2 years the least I heard. So then what do they do?"

They rob you unless the government educcates them instead of spending all that $$$ on killing people to defend their way of life.

Oh! There's a thought! Don't kill people thousands of miles away... or, maybe, kill just enough so we can support our own citizens... maybe it's justa balancing act? I am sure some politician can work outsome numbers.

It's a mad mad world... in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM

////Anyway, I hope that all those who want single mothers with no skills tested for drugs and denied assistance if they test positive never resort to drugs themselves or have children that do, for whatever reason.////

But their benfits run out anyway--I believe they expire in 2 years the least I heard. So then what do they do?

If they spent their time acquiring skills instead of popping out kids left and right, they wouldn't need welfare in the first place.

/////Atta boy, Josepp "I'm getting fucked over so I want to be sure everyone else get fucked over as well, and if possible, worse fucked over than I've been".////

Create straw men much?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

Tell it to the Tea Potty.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:59 AM

We can not legislate morality

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:11 PM

And 100

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

I think I count on this thread two resident members of the moral gestapo and a lot of sensible people - oh and a flyby loony who sounds like one of the UK members of that which is not mentioned.

It is very nice to see so much sense being talked and regrettable to see the UK contribution as on average further to the political right than the USAian.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM

Atta boy, Josepp "I'm getting fucked over so I want to be sure everyone else get fucked over as well, and if possible, worse fucked over than I've been".

That's the spirit that made Amerika great.

Stop pissing, moaning, and whining and DO SOMETHING about your getting fucked over, fer chrissakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:25 PM

JohninKS, thank you for that last posting.

From what I know from my relative's experience, there is SSI(?) for people of retirement age who are at poverty level due to no retirement monies and/or not enough paid into the system for SS benefits. The feds provide a small monthly amount and, in Colorado, the state also kicks in a small amount. Senior citizens on such also qualify for food stamps. It's the only thing I may qualify when I "come of age" as long as our income is very low by then. Such a rosy picture. Sure hope my books sell well when I get them out!

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:03 PM

The thing that makes me gape at some of the absolute foolishness I have seen on this thread is that

#1--the testing will be more expensive than what welfare will save
#2--see #1

Which part of that do folks have difficulty understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:02 PM

The thing that makes me gape at some of the absolute foolishness I have seen on this thread is that

#1--the testing will be more expensive than what welfare will save
#2--see #1

Which part of that do folks have difficulty understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:47 PM

Maybe they should get their dog stoned. It might stop chasing it's tail... unlike what this thread is doing.

The leaders granstanding instead of addressing the problems is crap. Education and rehabilitation. Odd that Asia is dominating the world economy? Not likely. The eductae their young while ours are sent to kill people half way round the world because they don't get a decent education. If they were educated, they wouldn't do that.

Anyway, I hope that all those who want single mothers with no skills tested for drugs and denied assistance if they test positive never resort to drugs themselves or have children that do, for whatever reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:23 PM

I'm not concerned about the drug addicts. I am concerned about the kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:07 PM

Hey, if someone is handing out (free)money, to 'help' you, I don't think it unreasonable that they have a condition of sobriety. The money is supposed to help families feed their children and help put a roof over their heads...not to keep the recipient stoned, while the dependent children get neglected, so mom or pops can stay stoned, and look for cures from the munchies!...and NOT look for work!..it was only meant for a 'safety net', not a way to prolong recreational stoning, as a way of life!!!

GfS