BS: Rugby World Cup 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM

hi

I have not been able to congratulate The All Blacks on their victory until now.

I watched the game with baited breath. Not the free running spectacular that many thought it would be.

Engrossing and exciting though with the final result always in doubt.

On reflection ( and looking at a recording of the game ) I think that New Zealand just about earned the title.

France though surprised many people, But not me. I know from old France are like the little girl " when they are good they are very very good and when they are bad they are horrid." France have often showed the temperamental side of their nature many times. I suspected that they would pull out a performance and they did.

They showed that maybe the supposed gap between Southern and Northern Hemisphere rugby is not as wide as is thought in some quarters.

Well done All Blacks - keep the flag flying !!!

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:02 AM

Seven a side is in fact dominated by Fiji and has been for as long as I can remember (having gone to the HK sevens every year of my childhood).

Fiji are like the Harlem Globetrotters of Rugby Sevens, and one of the reasons they are so good is that their players are not just fast, but also huge.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:11 AM

Gnu, The game that is growing fastest worldwide is rugby seven-a-side, usually called 'Rugby Sevens.' Part of the reason for the growth is that it is a faster, more running game, without the same requirement for a forward-line of big guys. Well, fewer of them, anyway, and less big guys to get past to score, so that nations where the men are of generally smaller stature can be competitive. The main competitors are the usual culprits, GB, Ireland, Oz, NZ, SA, but it was noted in commentary that it was getting much harder to beat the 'minnows,' so although NZ are current champions at that too, it may be that their tenure is ending. Googling the NZ site for Sevens shows that current ABs are also Sevens men. The lighter ones.

I understand that both men's and women's Sevens are to be included at the next Olympics. A chance for some tough chicks to get a gold medal, eh? The USA are already on the way to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Ana
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:05 AM

NZ's just had a long weekend - the sort of thing just made for a folk festival - and that's exactly what happens in Wellington! The Wellington Folk Festival finished a few hours ago: about a 1000 people gathered up a small valley in the hills, the cold evenings warmed with revelry and music.
About 200 crammed into a small hall where the big game was screened, and what a blast it was! Great craic, a hard game fought well, and - of course - a fantastic result!
Many NZ'ers still haven't forgiven the French government for its 1985 terrorist activity in the Auckland harbour, when a ship was bombed and sunk with the loss of a life.
These wins don't make things better, but it sure does feel great!
La Bomb!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:56 AM

Nice for the Kiwis to have a win after the terrible year they have had, but spare a thought for the French.

Their third rugby World Cup final, played like champions - and still came up empty.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:42 PM

Fair play to France. I had thought and hoped they would get thrashed...

And Congrats to NZ.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM

A nailbiter indeed! I thought the French played a better overall game but the scoreboard is where the decision is made. Although I would like to discuss what I found to be VERY odd strategy (to me, I am NOT well versed in such) on both sides, this is not the place or time to do it. This is the place and time to say... WELL DONE All Blacks!

BTW, today, I stayed away from ALL news, TV, radio, Mudcat... even had to shush two lads talkin about the game at the beer store and say, "I haven't seen the game yet so don't say any more, please." It was on TV here in the early AM and then again at 4PM. I enjoyed. AND, it was on a major US TV network. There is hope to bring the game to NA in a big way. It's slim, but there is hope.... I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:40 PM

I was too tired to comment last night.
I really thought that the All-Blacks would lose when the French got their tails up in the second half, they looked the better side. Both side's kickers were off their games, and the margin was one point. One point! The French played their most determined game of the tournament, and the AB's their most tentative.
A nailbiter.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:55 AM

Well it looks like the honour of signing off is mine ...

NZ deserved the cup for consistency throughout the tournament, but France very nearly took it from them, and in the process more than redeemed themselves for the horrible way they got that far.

There are some who have commented that NZ played very cynically, and that there shouls have been a few French penalties, but I'd have to watch again to besure that was a fair comment - I was cheering for NZ so may have overlooked any debatable transgressions ...

All in all an amazing nerve jangling match though, and NZ defence against the French onslaught was awesome.

The tournament as a whole was redeemed and France went out with their heads held high - and with the right to tell their critics back home to shove it!

Ah well ... bring on the 6 nations!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: paula t
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

Hi Dave,
I watched that programme too and really enjoyed it! The one aspect of the Lions game which most impressed me was the incredibly fast ball from the breakdown. That lovely "whippy" pass straight from the floor which was then quickly moved on. The backs could take the ball at pace.This is something the England team do not seem to have enjoyed for quite a while. The ball stays at the back feet while the defence line up their men....then a few short steps to telegraph the direction and our backs have to take the ball standing still. No wonder they then run straight into a wall.I shouted myself hoarse during their last match, trying to will the ball off the floor and into someone's hands so we could at least try an attacking move. I always swore I wouldn't shout at the telly!Is that a sign of age?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:18 AM

I'm afraid I'm not a great lover of tries at all cost. What I want is a close game (decided by tries) where the result is in doubt right until the final whistle. I was watching Eddie Butler's programme on the '71 Lions last night (admittedly just highlights}, and it struck me how much faster the game seemed to be then - no mauls and everybody stayed on their feet at the tackle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:08 PM

"Lox, my idea of a good game is when plenty of tries are scored."

Me too - and I think the team who scores the tries deserves to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

Thanks, Dave. I just don't know the history of rugby... only what I learned at uni. Or, didn't know until I received your PM. Thanks much for that as well.

Excellent point, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:56 PM

If they did drop it to one point, would teams become more likely to concede penalties?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM

Back in 1871, football matches were decided entirely by goals. In games played under Rugby Laws, touching the ball down over the goal line gave the attacking team a free kick from the goal line where the ball had been touched down, which was then 'marked' by another member of that team, who, in turn was entitled to take a free kick at goal. Once the touchdowns were recognized, they still only counted if the number of goals were equal. Eventually point values were allocated, and in due course achieved their modern values with a try worth more than a goal. Incidentally, originally 'field goals' could be scored by fly-hacking a loose ball, though this is long gone..

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

Dave... I don't understand... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:45 PM

" it makes me wish for the old days when they got was a single point for those efforts."

And no points for touching the ball down behind the goal line. But you did get the chance of a 'try at goal' as they still call it in the NFL!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:44 PM

Not a bad idea for consideration. A single for a penatly BUT still 3 for a drop.... maybe? I'd like to hear other viewpoints.

To me, Yankee football has been a somewhat "degraded" by 3 point field goals which have become up to 55 yards or so... the kickers are becoming so accurate I think it hurts the overall game. On a 100 yard field, it just doesn't seem right.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:06 PM

Lox, my idea of a good game is when plenty of tries are scored. When matches are decided by field goals and penalties, it makes me wish for the old days when they got was a single point for those efforts.

As it was in my youth.....

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM

I thought the video ref could only "ref" when asked by the ref. No?

Ya know, the more I think about it with the added comments about Clerc's size and position, the more I am inclined to agree with a yellow. Still, I gotta go with the ref.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM

Interesting to note that the same thing happened against Tonga
Either Clerc is very unlucky to have suffered twice, or he has found a way to get his team extra penalties!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM

Not true Gnu.

The video ref has all the benefit of the slow motion replays etc.

It was very clear that Warburton went out of his way to ensure that he didn't land on clerc. He took great care, once the tackle had been made - and once he realized that it wasn't his opposite number he was tackling but a tiny substitute - to ensure that no damage was done and that clerc was safe and unhurt.

Interesting to note that the same thing happened against Tonga - clerc made the strange decision to come into the pack and play whwre the big guys are - with exactly the same results - he was picked up by a surprised tongan forward and lifted into the air - surprised because no back row player with a sense of self preservation would be foolish enough to get caught in the contact area.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: gnu
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:43 PM

Bruce... "If the other team hadn't turned up, the one-sided commentary might have been justified but France actually won..."

Indeed! This happens with Canadian commentators during international hockey (yeah, I KNOW... ICE hockey) tournaments to the point it becomes sickening. But, the is the first time I was taken aback by the CONTINUOUS babble of a rugby commentator. One or two "praises"... okay. But it really became embarrassing and showed poor sportsmanship.

As for the tackle, tough call. It certainly could have led to injury. Let us not forget, the ref and judges have to make a call without the aid of a dozen slow-mo replays from a near perfect viewing angle. They can't get ever call perfect. I allow/agree with the call.

It was an exciting game (match?) but I did not enjoy the outcome.

Gary Owens >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM

france have a good chance of winning

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:18 AM

What????

The AB's v the Wobblies was a kickers match?

In what reality exactly?

The all blacks missed about 5 kicks .....

Had it been a kickers match, New zealands score would have been at last 12 points higher than it was.

Some bizarre comments here.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 11:22 PM

Well, I watched the ABs/Wallabies match on TV, and I thought it was a hard-fought, dour struggle from go to whoa, with the Aussies never out of it until it ended. A defender's match, a kickers match.
Looking forward to the final (most here think that WAS the final) and maybe a running match?

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:37 AM

Today's 'Scotland on Sunday' printed stills of the tackle, showing Clerc being vertical when landing on the back of his neck. Wales have also not appealed against Warburton's suspension.

Nobody ever said the Laws of Rugby Union Football were fair. When I played, it was accepted that you would be penalised for not rolling away even if unconscious.

Anyway, I enjoyed today's game. Next week's are very promising, even if the French haven't been the same since they changed from being 'Les Tricoleurs' into 'Les Bleus'. Maybe someone should go and drag Philippe Bernat-Salles out of the pub!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:26 AM

Our pathetic Australian commercial TV commentary of the France/Wales match analysed every aspect of the fabulous Welsh performance in minute detail, apart from two minor points:

1. Warburton was sent off because the referee considered he made a dangerous tackle. Wales were then 'underdogs', as far as the commentators were concerned, because it was then 14 against 15 players. Umm. That was because Warburton did a bad thing! Why are they the victims?

2. Wales lost. If the other team hadn't turned up, the one-sided commentary might have been justified but France actually won and the Australian audience had to put up with almost total denial of the fact. France is through to the Big Game and we had to hear the endless tales of woe about the luckless losers. Nothing about the one or two French players who might have made a reasonable attempt at playing the game.

As I said earlier, France should cut its losses and go home early. They're fortunate to be playing next week. Don't make things worse.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM

Rick O'Shea (English language commentator on S4C) made the point that the IRB doesn't allow referees discretion on 'spear tackles'.

From the IRB Memorandum (8 June 2009):
"At a subsequent IRB High Performance Referee Seminar at Lensbury referees were advised that for these types of tackles they were to start at red card as a sanction and work backwards."
...
...

"To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the ground:

The player is lifted and then forced or "speared" into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player's safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.
Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4 (e)) of the circumstances of the tackle."

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 09:23 AM

Australia was totally outplayed. Simple as that. There were mercurial players out there who either had the jitters or were under instructions to play dull and boring rugby. Not clever and not good enough. The Wallabies should know that giving bloody noses to All Blacks just make them annoyed.

France? My advice to you is forfeit the final, spend a few days in New Caledonia relaxing and complaining about the coach, then go home. You've exceeded most people's expectations already and you can only go backwards from here. Noumea is lovely and most of the locals will probably like you.

Our weekly music session in the pub this afternoon featured a large TV (with the sound off!) screening today's OTHER football match. Australia crushed New Zealand 42-6. Sadly, it was rugby league, so nobody cares.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM

Hi

Well played ABs - they were the better team throughout and deserved to win. Perhaps as is suggested above that had Carter been available the game might have been played differently and the ABs's territorial advantage could have been converted into points. But what matter?? They won and are in the Final. This is something of a novelty recently as the ABs have not featured really in recent competitions.

It was an exciting game to watch with some tremendous tackling going on from both sides. I don't think that I have seen so many blooded noses and cuts in one game before. Hard stuff !!

I have always admired the way the All Blacks play ever since I saw them many years ago play in Manchester when I witnessed probably the best ever kicker the game has ever seen. I am talking about Don Clarke. Don was a great rugby player and all-round sportsman - he played first class cricket too.

I will be supporting New Zealand even though the only link I have is that my niece has recently been over there during a World-wide trip.

Oh and many bruises suffered from some of the many NZs who I have encountered in my own rugby career.

But I am not counting my chickens just yet.......as Jimmy Greaves once said about Football......"it's a funny old game".

Cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM

Severe gritting of teeth, and supporting New Zealand in the final.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Little Robyn
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM

That's it!
Final score 20/6.
We're in the finals!!!
Go the ABs.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Little Robyn
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 05:46 AM

5 minutes to go and it's ABs20, Wallabies 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 05:02 AM

Majestic from New Zealand today - pity there's no Carter so that the quality of play were better reflected by the scoreline.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 02:55 AM

And a string of onions. Go the ABs.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST,Fossil at work
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM

Just to digress from *that* decision, I was surprised and pleased to see Jonathon Lemalu being backed by a choir when he sang the anthems. But what a voice that bloke has got!

Oh well, a lot of the fun has gone out of the RWC now. The rest of NZ is on the collective edge of its seat waiting for the result of the All Blacks v Australia, (the *real* final, as many down here are calling it) but I find myself in "who-gives-a-shit" situation. And whoever wins the Southern Hemisphere clash, don't ask me to support France in the final. Perhaps, though I should, as without exception every team I have supported in this championship has duly lost at the next opportunity!

Looking for a beret...

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:33 PM

Rick O'Shea (English language commentator on S4C) made the point that the IRB doesn't allow referees discretion on 'spear tackles'.

At least I've still got an interest in the competition - as a Scot, all my grandparents had dual nationality so were elligible to apply for French passports.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM

Here is the link

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM

Hard luck... Here's a post I put on a thread above the line before the match:

I don't normally get the Times, but there was a free one when I bought Private Eye from WH Smiths today - and in a rather over-strained "funny" page about how English Rugby fans are supposed to be switching their allegiance to Wales now that England has been knocked out of the Rugby World Cup, there's a "phonetic version of Land of my Fathers", which might be quite useful.

Here it is - (and here is a you tube rendering with the original words for a singalong, and a translation...)

My hen laid a haddock on top of a tree
Glad farts and centurions throw dogs in the sea
I could stew a hare here, and brandish Don's flan.
Don's ruddy bog's blocked up with sand.
Dad! Dad! Why don't you oil Aunty Glad?
When whores appear on beer bottle pies,
Oh butter the hens as they fly.
Dad! Dad! Why don't you oil Aunty Glad?
When whores appear on beer bottle pies,
Oh butter the hens as they fly.

Once more with feeling!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM

Max Boyce put it best. As true today as it ever was:


I am an entertainer
And I sing for charity,
For Oxfam and for Shelter,
For those worse off than me.

Bangladesh, Barnardo's Homes,
And though I don't get paid
It does one good to do some work
For things like Christian Aid.

But of all the concerts that I've done
For the homeless overseas
The one I did that pleased me most
Was not for refugees.

'Twas for a home in Ireland
That stands amongst the trees,
The Sunshine Home in Dublin
For blind Irish Referees!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 12:30 PM

p.s. those grapes were sour!

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 12:30 PM

It is easy to blame decisions on the referee, but he should have never been put in that position.
An inportant semi-final between two nothern hemisphere clubs should automatically have been awarded to a southern hemisphere ref.
The fact that it was an Irish ref (Wales knocked Ireland out in the quarter finals) whose father was French, makes you wonder just what the IRB (International Rugby Board) were thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM

The way that "spear tackle" rule is now, it seems to me that the only way to avoid being sent off, if you tackle a guy in such a way that his arse ends up higher than his head, is to cradle him gently in your arms, carry him to the touchline and offer him a nice cup of tea! You can't shove his head in the ground and you can't just let him drop... Both are regarded as dangerous play.

On today's performance, I reckon BOTH New Zealand and Australia could put out second string teams and still beat the French. Otherwise this is carrying "saving it for the final" to a ridiculous level!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 11:21 AM

"On balance of play Wales were on top until the controversial sending off of Warburton the Welsh skipper."

Wales were on top after warburton was sent off, they had all the possession and the only try.

With Warburton on it would have been a whitewash.

However, credit must be given to the French kicker who got his kicks in while Hook and Jones missed theirs.

Also surprised at misssed drop goal opportunity in last 5 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: MikeL2
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 10:49 AM

Hi

i watched the whole match live. It was never going to be a high scoring game with the tackling by both sides ferocious.

On balance of play Wales were on top until the controversial sending off of Warburton the Welsh skipper.

I have to say that as I watched it I thought the referee had made a correct decision. It look dangerous and he appeared to "spear" the Frenchman to the ground. But the slo-mo proves me to be wrong and the tackle whilst hard and probably slightly illegal was worth no more than a penalty.

So it was tough on Wales but they tried to play as a team and turn this situation around.

The almost pulled it off but as as been happening all through the tournament vital missed penalties cost them the game.

My commiserations go out to Wales who played well throughout the Tournament and deserved better fate than this. I think that their performances both on and off the pitch will have gained them many new friends - including this Englishman who is passionate and patriotic about his rugby.

Bad luck Wales but after all.....that is sport.

Cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:01 AM

I saw it and am wearing mt red shirt with pride. Still like the 13 man game better though. And I don't mean 2 sent off on each side :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Lox
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM

What a joke - Wales deserve to be in the final - France hardly deserve to be in tournament - yet here they are.

The red card was a wild overreaction to a good tackle followed by careful attention by warburton to make sure he didn't cause any damage.

Wales scored the only try.

France should be ashamed of themselves - in the final after losing two pool stage matches and completely failing to dominate a 14 man Welsh squad.

We the viewing public were robbed of a great tournament by an indefensible decision.

I will be watching the final to bear witness to France being given a proper spanking for daring to walk out on the pitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:05 AM

They have :-(

I've not seen the incident but it sounds as though the sending off was a bit controversial.

Subject: RE: BS: Rugby World Cup 2011
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:32 AM

Blimey, Wales caption gets the red card, and withing minutes France square the match.

Can't help thinking that Wales have just lost the game.