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BS: Need some conservative viewpoints
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Subject: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Naemanson Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM I am teaching an honors class in American Government to high school seniors. I have been posting articles for them to read about the current presidential hopefuls but my sources tend to reflect my own liberal bias. Their last assignment was to find some articles that showed the conservative view of some of the articles I had posted. Over a weekend they confessed they'd had trouble finding such articles. So I need to hear from conservatives. Here is where you can impress young minds with the words of your political representatives and the clarity of thought that brings you to their side of the arguments rolling through American politics today. Please provide web addresses to the articles. Note: I will not be replying to any posts. I am not looking for personal views nor am I interested in starting an argument. I really am looking for something I can give my students that will illustrate the positions of the other side and bring balance to my discussions. I would appreciate it if neither side, liberals or conservatives, would use this thread as an opportunity to air your grievances. There are plenty of other threads available for that. If you, a fellow liberal, read something that someone has posted and you disagree with it please do not comment on it here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,999 Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:06 AM Would you please give us a few of the articles or the gists thereof you gave your students? It would certainly help with searches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Bobert Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:28 AM Google up George Will, David Brooks and Charles Krauthammer and you'll have the entire ball or wax... Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:03 AM That's a bit mind blowing. You can't find conservative commentators in America..... Got be a wind up. Which sunny enclave is your college situated in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: katlaughing Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:18 AM What Bobert said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Amos Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:22 AM He's in Guam. Just trawl through Forbes, Fortune or the Wall Street Journal, or the Washington TImes, and you will find your answer. Or Google "Conservative Blog". Or "Anne Coulter" or "Rush Limbaugh". You'll be amazed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:30 AM I wonder if Naemanson is making a distinction between "conservative" and "fundagelical nutjob". If so that would make the task a lot harder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Jim Dixon Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM Category:Conservative American magazines at Wikipedia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,Ebbie Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM Try columns by Cal Thomas. He is one of those I can hardly abide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Desert Dancer Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM Also, the National Review (founded by William Buckley, Jr.). ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:22 AM Admirable effort, Naemanson. I firmly believe that if facts are presented in a well-reasoned argument, then truth will emerge. I wish you the best. I shall honour your request to refrain from political commentary on this thread, though it pains me greatly. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Lighter Date: 13 Sep 11 - 01:18 PM Not everyone called a "conservative" is a conservative. Many popular "conservative" personalities are best regarded as reactionary populists. The difference is that real conservatives respect facts and history and engage in rational discussion without constant recourse to grandstanding, ridicule, and debating tricks. Reactionary populists will do or say almost anything to further their often ill-considered agendas. There are, of course, populist radicals as well, and their techniques are similar. They pose as liberals but are not. The more barbs, zingers, ridicule, exaggerations (and occasional outright lies) you hear, the more likely it is you're listening to a reactionary or radical populist - or someone throwing red meat to that audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:33 PM Speeches by Mitt Romney. Not all of the links are active, but he is a responsible conservative, not a populist radical. http://mittromneycentral.com/speeches One I read recently- http://mittromneycentral.com/speeches/090211-republican-national-hispanic assembly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 02:42 PM Mitt Romney on the issues- Issues |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM Where? All I saw was hot air. From another wannabee theocrat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: gnu Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:05 PM "I would appreciate it if neither side, liberals or conservatives, would use this thread as an opportunity to air your grievances." Yeah... good luck with that. Already started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:51 PM Many quotations from conservative thinkers here: "A Conservative Primer for Conceptualizing Political Economy on the Humane Scale." Conservative Primer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:32 PM It is a relevant definitional point. Conservatism is not the same as theocracy and it is a long way from what the Tea Potty is advocating. The linguistic root is the same as "conservation" - that is to say a tendency not to pursue change. The current US right (a bit like the current UK right only worse) actively seek great change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:35 PM Log on to "American Thinker." You will get lots of current articles and lots of archives too. Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 05:39 PM Also (sorry - should have added it above) if you want longer analysis and more nuanced arguments, try Commentary magazine. Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:09 PM American Thinker seems to be another extreme right organ, not expressing the centrist view that is the heart of conservatism. MarkS could do better than advocate lunatic right thought that is as inane as that of the left wingnut boobirds, neither of whom have any solutions to the problems of the American economy in a globalizing world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,MarkS(on the road) Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:42 PM Hardly advocating any thought, Q, rather I thought I was steering another poster in a direction they wanted to go! First you have to find the viewpoints before you can discuss them! Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:57 PM As the late Johnny Speight said, the problem with being even handed is that the Conservative party policy statements fit so well into the mouth of an idiot. Johnny was the creator of Alf Garnet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWKy4RHf5tQ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Gorgeous Gary Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:59 PM Hmmm...try maybe the Houston Chronicle (TX), Atlanta Journal-Constitution (CA), and Manchester Union-Leader (NH), all newspapers in fairly conservative territory. -- Gary |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Songwronger Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:29 PM Various Ron Paul websites. There are lots of videos of him on the web, too, going back as far as the 1970's, arguing for fiscal conservatism, smaller government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Naemanson Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:46 AM Thanks for the input. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:10 PM Thank Heavens you are in a "posession" and not a state.
Blessedly, (for you) the DOD will take almost anyone, with a degree in anything, to teach almost anywhere. No credential required.
If you play your cards rights, and you have "the correct" govt sponsored student loans, you can remove your debt in a few years of indentured servitude.
When it comes time for a "real teaching credential" look to the states of Virgina and California. Avoid states like Iowa or North Dakota. Why? Some are recognized across the globe, international, others are state specfic.
There MUST be curriculum standards for GUAM.
OBVIOUSLY you are CLUELESS -
Post you next week's lesson plan (should be filed the week ahead with your site administrator)
AP Government Teachers Guide
Curriculum Standards for GUAM (they should be the Virgina State equivilant for NCLB)
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: TIA Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:53 PM "the centrist view that is the heart of conservatism" Wow. It's darn hard to figure out which is which in the USA today. Tea Party carries the flag of conservatism, but is hardly centrist. Republicans are licking Tea Party boots. Is demolishing social programs that have worked for almost 100 years "conservative"? Is burning up all of our non-renewable resources (in the name of WTF we will be saved by the Rapture) "conservative"? Does the "center" really believe that marginally raising taxes on people who flit about in Lear Jets will make them lose their jobs? Words is so confuzzling these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:45 AM As some have said above, the "Tea Party Patriots" really don't seem to be true conservatives. I would think that true conservatives are those that favor business, and see business instead of government as the true, rational, and effective solution to social needs and problems - the center of decision-making for society. Conversely, "liberals" would then see government as the solution for social problems and the necessary center of decision-making. I think that both of these perspectives are valid and need to be included in the process of running our society. They are different, and they conflict with each other - but both are valid. I think that the goals of true conservatism were accomplished through most of the presidential administrations of the second half of the twentieth century, particularly during the administrations of Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Clinton-Gore (who, to my mind, were Republicans in Democrat clothing). I will exclude the Bush-Cheney administration from consideration because I think they were extremist, evangelical idiots - not true conservatives. There really hasn't been much of a move toward "liberal" government since the Great Society of Lyndon Johnson. Clinton-Gore privatized my government job (a conservative ideal Reagan tried but didn't accomplish). Clinton-Gore attempted and Obama accomplished a corporation-dominated healthcare program, instead of the single-payer program that would be closer to the "liberal" (socialist) ideal. In international relations, the US has always been closer to the conservative ideal of solving conflicts by military power, instead of the liberal ideal that would tend more toward pacifism. Liberals would tend to tax corporations and the rich heavily, but that's not the tax structure you'll find in the US nowadays. Liberals would expect workers to have long-term employment and the expectation of a decent pension and health benefits, but job security and benefits are constantly dwindling in the US. Instead of being able to expect a stable pension on retirement, workers now have to give their money to banks and the stock market and hope there's something left after the fat cats have taken their supersize share. Even the Obama stimulus programs that the Tea Party Patriots decry, are of primary benefit to corporations, not to needy individuals. So, I think the reason that the only "conservatives" we can find nowadays are these Tea Party idiots, is that the true conservative ideals have been accomplished and the Republicans no longer have anything to fight for. It may well be that liberalism is near dead in the US (and getting there in Europe), and that conservatism is alive and well and just doesn't realize it. As for me, I'm waiting for the Second Coming.....of FDR. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Ringer Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:24 AM How about James Delingpole on Sarah Palin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Sep 11 - 04:58 AM Part of the confusion is that "liberal" means different things to an economist and to a social scientist. Maybe the same applies to "conservative" - of which I see the core meaning as tending to conservation of the status quo, which is not what corporatists want at all: they want to change the status quo in favour of corporations. The Tea Potty seems largely to want to revert to anarchy apart from theocratic rules. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Lighter Date: 15 Sep 11 - 08:56 AM >I see the core meaning as tending to conservation of the status quo, which is not what corporatists want at all: they want to change the status quo in favour of corporations. Perceptive and true. In the US, however, "conservatism" has long leaned toward laissez-faire. That allows zillion-dollar corporations to claim that they're being "conservative" when they want to abolish industry regulations that protect workers, consumers, and the economy. Some even want to dump the Environmental Protection Agency, which impedes "growth" by trying (with some success) to clean up the nation's air and water. But, hey, who needs clean air and water? Big-government liberals, that's who! Entrepeneurs don't need that stuff! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:05 PM And, of course, "conservative" has different meanings in the US and UK. Are there people in the UK who advocate handing health care over to corporations? I think the Tea Party people run on fear, not on a conservative philosophy. I'm sure many Tea Party people think "philosophy" is a dirty word. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Sep 11 - 02:40 PM Yes Joe. They are called the coalition government. They've started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST Date: 15 Sep 11 - 10:43 PM PLEASE - focus on the subject of the thread.
American Government to high school seniors When the "lesson plan is filed" we can expect a balanced input. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Sep 11 - 01:35 AM So, garg, how would you define "conservative"? Isn't it important to arrive at a definition of "conservative" before attempting to find people that represent that point of view? Is conservatism just guns and lower taxes and keeping America white and Christian, or is there a deeper, valid philosophy that would more appropriately be called "conservative"? To rephrase what I said above, I see true American conservativism as a political philosophy that sees business as the appropriate central focus of power in society, while American liberalism thinks government should be the central focus. I think that it is inaccurate to say that liberalism promotes change and conservatism supports the status quo. American conservatives certainly don't want the current status quo, with Democrats in power in the Senate and White House. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST, Richard Bridge Date: 16 Sep 11 - 05:58 AM That is the puzzle. What does Naemanson seek? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Musket Date: 16 Sep 11 - 11:12 AM Big Al; Johnny Speight put another word of wisdom in the mouth of Alf Garnett that I like to quote when a meeting is about to put something to the vote.. "If you want to achieve TRUE democracy, you have to be prepared to shoot a few people." This thread is about American interpretations of the word "conservative." Methinks the likes of Ken Clarke would be dismissed as a socialist by many of our cousins over the pond. Here, it means more of an idealogical theme around preserving old ways. You could be cynical and take that to mean maintaining a stratified class system, although there is no real difference between any of our mainstream parties. Hence the conservative and liberal parties can convince themselves they can run a government of shared promises and group failure. I agree with Joe Offer mind, that people both sides of the pond who call themselves conservative tend to want more radical change than most. Just to answer Joe Offer's question about handing over healthcare to the private sector. It started in 1948 and GPs (general practitioners in primary care) dentists, pharmacists and opthamologists have never been in the National Heath Service, always been contractors. Likewise, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced contracting to the private sector to get waiting times down without the cost of permanent infrastructure. In order to do that, private providers had to be given the wherewithal to compete once the waiting lists had steadied. The present government have seemed to increase this plurality of supplier, making NHS providers all apply for "foundation" status, which is to run as a business but with the taxpayer as the shareholder. Or level playing field as it is called. For me, just out of interest as someone who used to chair (President in American English(!)) a health authority, I fear for the training aspect in such a market. I don't think this government or any previous one has seriously seemed to go against the "free at point of delivery" funding of healthcare, but the population seems, regardless of political colour, to embrace the fundamental aspect of free universal healthcare. The arguments have always been around who physically provides it. It has always been a larger percentage of the private sector than many commentators would openly be comfortable with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Lighter Date: 16 Sep 11 - 11:53 AM > "If you want to achieve TRUE democracy, you have to be prepared to shoot a few people." That's not democracy. It's unanimity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 11 - 12:20 AM Hi, Ian - as someone who used to chair (President in American English(!)) a health authority The usage is the same in the United States - using "chair" as a verb to mean "serve as chairperson of..." -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Naemanson Date: 17 Sep 11 - 04:41 AM "Note: I will not be replying to any posts. I am not looking for personal views nor am I interested in starting an argument. I really am looking for something I can give my students that will illustrate the positions of the other side and bring balance to my discussions." Unfortunately I have to say this... I have nothing to do with DOD. I did my time with them and, with the exception of the retirement benefits, I am done with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,.guest Date: 17 Sep 11 - 06:42 PM Many U.S.A. political conservatives have a philosophy that embraces the original core of the Republican Party and its first elected president.
The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves, in their separate and individual capacities. In all that the people can individually do as well for themselves, government ought not to interfere. The desirable things, which the individuals of a people cannot do, or cannot well do, for themselves, fall into two classes: those which have relation to wrongs, and those which have not. Each of these branches off into an infinite variety of subdivisions.
The first – that in relation to wrongs – embraces all crimes, misdemeanors, and non-performance of contracts. The other embraces all which, in its nature, and without wrong, requires combined action, as public roads and highways, public schools, charities, pauperism, orphanage, estates of the deceased, and the machinery of government itself.
From this it appears that if all men were just, there still would be some, though not so much, need of government...
Source: ABRAHAM LINCOLN, fragment on government The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, ed. Roy P. Basler, vol. 2, pp. 22021 . Found on http://quotationsbook.com/quote/45475/
To a conservative - the American Liberal agenda appears to twist the above reasoning into a humorous sylogism.
“The legitimate object of government is to do for the people what needs to be done, but which they can not, by individual effort, do at all, or do so well, by themselves.” –Barack Obama, quoting Abraham Lincoln
“[N]ot a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make [a pencil].” –Leonard Read, “I, Pencil”
Therefore, making pencils — and, by implication, everything else — is a legitimate object of government.
Found at (however, "Tom's linked sources do connect")
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Sep 11 - 06:36 PM Conservatism is all but dead in today's Republican Party which is radical extremism. There was at one time a cautionary approach to economics based on a rational idea, you can spend too much money on the wrong things. That has been thrown out the window with the rise of the M.I.C. (Military Industrial Complex), Libertarianism, Paul Ryan and the Religious Wrong. Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater would have a tough time today. Military expansionism might be a true conservative view as well as re-instituting tariffs to protect American workers (something that I as a Lefty would advocate). Teddy Roosevelt was a conservative on the issue of environmental abuse. Oddly, he would be closer today to Al Gore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST Date: 18 Sep 11 - 10:52 PM RE: "closer today to Al Gore."
Please within THIS thread present three examples
Sincerely, THREE (because if ... one is shot down ... you still have two to stand on.
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Sep 11 - 03:17 AM It seems to me evident that the provision of a national health service and a welfare state fall admirably within the words provided, and stated to be from Abraham Lincoln. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Naemanson Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:56 AM Ah, the hell with it... If you observe carefully you will see that, with the exception of the income gap, the arguments going on today are the same arguments that were voiced 224 years ago when the states were debating the ratification of the Constitution. The Federalists were for a strong central government and the Anti-Federalists were for a smaller, less intrusive government. Plus the Anti-Federalists wanted to see the rights of the individual protected. See any parallels? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: Lighter Date: 24 Sep 11 - 09:13 AM At that level of abstraction and simplification, sure. People often ask, "What would the Founders say about situation X in 2011?" Whatever it is, the implication is they'd be appalled, especially if it hadn't existed in 1789. We don't know what "the Founders" would say. Their individual opinions would probably differ at least as much as they did in the Federalist/Anti-Federalist age. A time-traveling Founder, with no recollection or understanding of the events of the past 200+ years, would make a lousy adviser. On the other hand, a 275-year-old Founder, who *had* lived through the past 200 years, might make an outstanding adviser. But he might not say what you's expect him to. The above holds true no matter what one's political viewpoint today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Need some conservative viewpoints From: GUEST,John Date: 25 Sep 11 - 01:09 AM The chief clearinghouse for popular renditions of the work of conservative intellectuals is The National Review. They have an extensive online presence, and their articles are suitable for interested high school students. Some of their pieces will seem a bit extreme for a commited progressive, but they have a unique and unchallenged 50-year reign as the right's semi-official print outlet. William F. Buckley was, for many years the editor of the magazine version. Expect a lot of academic analysis and a collegiate vocabulary. RealClearPolitics.com is the better of the web aggregators for conservatives, reprinting all major current conservative punditry as well as progressive pieces that informed conservatives need to be familiar with. RealClearPolitics puts a high premium on currency, so they will link to anything that seems really hot in the world of political analysis. They provide lots of links to video clips from politicians and commentators. If I were doing a class, I would start with these. |
